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On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:44 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 05:55 Ayaz2810 wrote:On July 23 2018 05:19 zlefin wrote:On July 23 2018 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 23 2018 01:20 Ayaz2810 wrote:
I find it amusing how many people assume he will still be in office to run in 2020. That looks less likely with every passing day. I honestly don't see how he could be realistically removed from office, unless you're referring to him dying of old age/ bad health in office? Enough Republican Congressmen have his back to make impeachment impossible, and even his new SCJ appointee was selected because he's pro- "let the president decide when and where he gets investigated". it's theoretically possible for him to be removed, just not likely at the moment. the thing about support of this kind is it's very unstable, they'll back him as long as it's in their interest to do so; but if situations change that support can disappear very fast. i'ts kinda like that confederate flag business a fwe years ago; when a tipping point is reached, a whole lot can change awful fast. "Tipping point" is a perfect way of putting it. If evidence of conspiracy and other high crimes and misdemeanors comes to light, and nothing is done, that will be the tipping point you speak of. Doubt it. The system is fucked. Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform.
If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump
ect ect.
If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening.
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On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:44 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 05:55 Ayaz2810 wrote:On July 23 2018 05:19 zlefin wrote:On July 23 2018 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I honestly don't see how he could be realistically removed from office, unless you're referring to him dying of old age/ bad health in office? Enough Republican Congressmen have his back to make impeachment impossible, and even his new SCJ appointee was selected because he's pro- "let the president decide when and where he gets investigated". it's theoretically possible for him to be removed, just not likely at the moment. the thing about support of this kind is it's very unstable, they'll back him as long as it's in their interest to do so; but if situations change that support can disappear very fast. i'ts kinda like that confederate flag business a fwe years ago; when a tipping point is reached, a whole lot can change awful fast. "Tipping point" is a perfect way of putting it. If evidence of conspiracy and other high crimes and misdemeanors comes to light, and nothing is done, that will be the tipping point you speak of. Doubt it. The system is fucked. Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening.
Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps.
That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality?
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United States24630 Posts
I think the day of the general election is a bit too late to find an alternate solution to voting for Hillary. Many posters here do not consider Hillary to be the solution to many of the country's major problems, but if she's the only valid alternative to Trump who is much worse, then it makes to vote Hillary that day, and return to the agenda of doing more to fix the country the following day.
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On July 23 2018 08:14 micronesia wrote:
I think the day of the general election is a bit too late to find an alternate solution to voting for Hillary. Many posters here do not consider Hillary to be the solution to many of the country's major problems, but if she's the only valid alternative to Trump who is much worse, then it makes to vote Hillary that day, and return to the agenda of doing more to fix the country the following day.
Considering how the primary went, and what they've focused on post election I'd have to see it to believe it and I ain't seein it.
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United States42251 Posts
On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:44 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 05:55 Ayaz2810 wrote:On July 23 2018 05:19 zlefin wrote:
[quote]
it's theoretically possible for him to be removed, just not likely at the moment.
the thing about support of this kind is it's very unstable, they'll back him as long as it's in their interest to do so; but if situations change that support can disappear very fast.
i'ts kinda like that confederate flag business a fwe years ago; when a tipping point is reached, a whole lot can change awful fast. "Tipping point" is a perfect way of putting it. If evidence of conspiracy and other high crimes and misdemeanors comes to light, and nothing is done, that will be the tipping point you speak of. Doubt it. The system is fucked. Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality?
A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism.
If Trump states that he intends to defund Obamacare by taking away the mandate (which he did) and Obamacare is how you pay for your sons chronic condition then idealism comes at the cost of your son's life. It'd be easy for me, a white hetero cis male with a professional career to be idealistic, the worst that'll happen to me is my taxes get cut. But elections have consequences for a lot of people.
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On July 23 2018 08:14 micronesia wrote:
I think the day of the general election is a bit too late to find an alternate solution to voting for Hillary. Many posters here do not consider Hillary to be the solution to many of the country's major problems, but if she's the only valid alternative to Trump who is much worse, then it makes to vote Hillary that day, and return to the agenda of doing more to fix the country the following day.
The axe to grind is that the people that in favor of candidates like Hillary will look at the results and say "If they are with us when it really matters regardless, do we really need to make what they want a consideration?" The Tea Party was able to reform the Republican Party because they made themselves a big enough a pain in the ass that they had to be listened to. Meanwhile in the Democratic party the Liberals are telling the Left to stop making a scene in the store because it's making the family look bad. There is no motivation for the Liberals to listen to the Left.
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On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:44 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 05:55 Ayaz2810 wrote:
[quote]
"Tipping point" is a perfect way of putting it. If evidence of conspiracy and other high crimes and misdemeanors comes to light, and nothing is done, that will be the tipping point you speak of. Doubt it. The system is fucked. Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism.
A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades.
Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself.
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On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:44 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 05:55 Ayaz2810 wrote:On July 23 2018 05:19 zlefin wrote:
[quote]
it's theoretically possible for him to be removed, just not likely at the moment.
the thing about support of this kind is it's very unstable, they'll back him as long as it's in their interest to do so; but if situations change that support can disappear very fast.
i'ts kinda like that confederate flag business a fwe years ago; when a tipping point is reached, a whole lot can change awful fast. "Tipping point" is a perfect way of putting it. If evidence of conspiracy and other high crimes and misdemeanors comes to light, and nothing is done, that will be the tipping point you speak of. Doubt it. The system is fucked. Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality?
You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them.
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United States42251 Posts
On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:44 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Doubt it. The system is fucked. Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself.
If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc.
Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty.
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On July 23 2018 08:19 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:14 micronesia wrote:
I think the day of the general election is a bit too late to find an alternate solution to voting for Hillary. Many posters here do not consider Hillary to be the solution to many of the country's major problems, but if she's the only valid alternative to Trump who is much worse, then it makes to vote Hillary that day, and return to the agenda of doing more to fix the country the following day. The axe to grind is that the people that in favor of candidates like Hillary will look at the results and say "If they are with us when it really matters regardless, do we really need to make what they want a consideration?" The Tea Party was able to reform the Republican Party because they made themselves a big enough a pain in the ass that they had to be listened to. Meanwhile in the Democratic party the Liberals are telling the Left to stop making a scene in the store because it's making the family look bad. There is no motivation for the Liberals to listen to the Left.
using the terms "liberals" and "left" to refer to separate factions within the dem party doesn't work well, it reads very confusingly.
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On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:44 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 05:55 Ayaz2810 wrote:
[quote]
"Tipping point" is a perfect way of putting it. If evidence of conspiracy and other high crimes and misdemeanors comes to light, and nothing is done, that will be the tipping point you speak of. Doubt it. The system is fucked. Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them.
Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's?
You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?"
I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it.
On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty.
I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about.
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On July 23 2018 08:19 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:14 micronesia wrote:
I think the day of the general election is a bit too late to find an alternate solution to voting for Hillary. Many posters here do not consider Hillary to be the solution to many of the country's major problems, but if she's the only valid alternative to Trump who is much worse, then it makes to vote Hillary that day, and return to the agenda of doing more to fix the country the following day. The axe to grind is that the people that in favor of candidates like Hillary will look at the results and say "If they are with us when it really matters regardless, do we really need to make what they want a consideration?" The Tea Party was able to reform the Republican Party because they made themselves a big enough a pain in the ass that they had to be listened to. Meanwhile in the Democratic party the Liberals are telling the Left to stop making a scene in the store because it's making the family look bad. There is no motivation for the Liberals to listen to the Left. Which is why the solution is to build a bigger base so that you can get your better/preferred candidate through the primary.
Except now you will be dealing with a Republican stacked Supreme Court. So say goodbye to any plans for universal healthcare, basic income or whatever socialist idea you wanted to get through this generation.
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On July 23 2018 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:19 Gahlo wrote:On July 23 2018 08:14 micronesia wrote:
I think the day of the general election is a bit too late to find an alternate solution to voting for Hillary. Many posters here do not consider Hillary to be the solution to many of the country's major problems, but if she's the only valid alternative to Trump who is much worse, then it makes to vote Hillary that day, and return to the agenda of doing more to fix the country the following day. The axe to grind is that the people that in favor of candidates like Hillary will look at the results and say "If they are with us when it really matters regardless, do we really need to make what they want a consideration?" The Tea Party was able to reform the Republican Party because they made themselves a big enough a pain in the ass that they had to be listened to. Meanwhile in the Democratic party the Liberals are telling the Left to stop making a scene in the store because it's making the family look bad. There is no motivation for the Liberals to listen to the Left. Which is why the solution is to build a bigger base so that you can get your better/preferred candidate through the primary. Except now you will be dealing with a Republican stacked Supreme Court. So say goodbye to any plans for universal healthcare, basic income or whatever socialist idea you wanted to get through this generation.
Your plan and future sounds terrible and hopeless. That's why I think people embracing it would be better off not even thinking about politics and just stay out of it.
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On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy.
Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"...
I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn.
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United States42251 Posts
On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:44 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Doubt it. The system is fucked. Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]No one has told you that.
The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up.
Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about.
I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege.
You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns.
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On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure if we just vote for corporate sponsored Democrats dependent on and exploitative of that system it should sort itself in a few generations. At least that's what people keep telling me. No one has told you that. The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up. Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it.
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns.
Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target.
Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system.
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United States42251 Posts
On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]No one has told you that.
The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up.
Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it.
If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system.
Your decision to ignore their concerns, after considering them and weighing them in the balance, doesn't look especially different from privilege from where I'm sitting. I guess I'd just be happier with you making the decision that some kids are going to have to die for what is, in balance, the greater good, if one of those kids were yours.
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On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:52 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]No one has told you that.
The system is fucked and will stay fucked for the foreseeable future because of the way it is set up.
Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it. The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it.
If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system. Yeah, your going to have a lot of trouble finding people to support you when your position is "I'm not doing better so fuck everyone".
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On July 23 2018 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it.
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system. Yeah, your going to have a lot of trouble finding people to support you when your position is "I'm not doing better so fuck everyone".
When the alternative is to bend the knee to the people who are saying "We're doing fine, fuck them." it doesn't seem that outlandish.
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EPT
