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On July 23 2018 08:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it.
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system. Your decision to ignore their concerns, after considering them and weighing them in the balance, doesn't look especially different from privilege from where I'm sitting.
You're confusing the ignoring and benefiting which you're used to, with a sincerely trying to address the underlying issues.
I understand your confusion Why they look the same from your own position of privilege, but they aren't at all the same.
Of course things have gotten worse for me personally under Trump. As well as having close friends and family who are directly threatened, specifically by policy as uniquely Trumpian as we could imagine. Turns out when you actually have relationships with these people. They are a part of your community and you of theirs, when you talk to them about this stuff, they actually can't stand the empty empathy you're attempting.
Which basically boils down to "here's the level of exploitation I'm comfortable enough with to not raise any trouble for the elites exploiting them. Ideally I've mastered this exploitative system enough to ensure my own security, thanks to my privilege and diligence."
They/we aren't interested in it and you can keep it.
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On July 23 2018 08:54 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it.
If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]There is more to progress then just election reform.
If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump
ect ect.
If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system. Yeah, your going to have a lot of trouble finding people to support you when your position is "I'm not doing better so fuck everyone". When the alternative is to bend the knee to the people who are saying "We're doing fine, fuck them." it doesn't seem that outlandish. Except for the plentiful people on the left who agree that the position of blacks is not good enough.
Note, people. Not necessarily the politicians.
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On July 23 2018 08:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:54 Gahlo wrote:On July 23 2018 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps.
That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality?
A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system. Yeah, your going to have a lot of trouble finding people to support you when your position is "I'm not doing better so fuck everyone". When the alternative is to bend the knee to the people who are saying "We're doing fine, fuck them." it doesn't seem that outlandish. Except for the plentiful people on the left who agree that the position of blacks is not good enough. Note, people. Not necessarily the politicians.
So they keep saying, as they couldn't imagine a US that would elect Trump, yet here we are...
Betting against liberal imagination seems to be pretty fertile ground right now.
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United States43755 Posts
On July 23 2018 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:46 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it.
If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]There is more to progress then just election reform.
If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump
ect ect.
If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system. Your decision to ignore their concerns, after considering them and weighing them in the balance, doesn't look especially different from privilege from where I'm sitting. You're confusing the ignoring and benefiting which you're used to, with a sincerely trying to address the underlying issues. I understand your confusion Why they look the same from your own position of privilege, but they aren't at all the same. Of course things have gotten worse for me personally under Trump. As well as having close friends and family who are directly threatened, specifically by policy as uniquely Trumpian as we could imagine. Turns out when you actually have relationships with these people. They are a part of your community and you of theirs, when you talk to them about this stuff, they actually can't stand the empty empathy you're attempting. Which basically boils down to "here's the level of exploitation I'm comfortable enough with to not raise any trouble for the elites exploiting them. Ideally I've mastered this exploitative system enough to ensure my own security, thanks to my privilege and diligence." They/we aren't interested in it and you can keep it.
Honestly it just feels a lot like you're not willing or able to acknowledge the privilege that you yourself benefit from. Women's health issues matter, deportation matters, healthcare really matters, trade policy matters, legal protection for LGBT folk matters, and so on. Your (presumed on my part) status as a straight male healthy employed citizen is privilege, whether you choose to view it as such or not. For the purpose of this election, you're not the one getting fucked.
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On July 23 2018 09:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:46 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps.
That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality?
A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system. Your decision to ignore their concerns, after considering them and weighing them in the balance, doesn't look especially different from privilege from where I'm sitting. You're confusing the ignoring and benefiting which you're used to, with a sincerely trying to address the underlying issues. I understand your confusion Why they look the same from your own position of privilege, but they aren't at all the same. Of course things have gotten worse for me personally under Trump. As well as having close friends and family who are directly threatened, specifically by policy as uniquely Trumpian as we could imagine. Turns out when you actually have relationships with these people. They are a part of your community and you of theirs, when you talk to them about this stuff, they actually can't stand the empty empathy you're attempting. Which basically boils down to "here's the level of exploitation I'm comfortable enough with to not raise any trouble for the elites exploiting them. Ideally I've mastered this exploitative system enough to ensure my own security, thanks to my privilege and diligence." They/we aren't interested in it and you can keep it. Honestly it just feels a lot like you're not willing or able to acknowledge the privilege that you yourself benefit from. Women's health issues matter, deportation matters, healthcare really matters, trade policy matters, legal protection for LGBT folk matters, and so on. Your (presumed on my part) status as a straight male healthy employed citizen is privilege, whether you choose to view it as such or not. For the purpose of this election, you're not the one getting fucked.
Really? You seem to have forgotten an important descriptor...
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On July 23 2018 09:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 08:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Yes, they, and you have. I suppose you're clarifying that it was in fact a fruitless dream meant instead to perpetuate it.
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it. If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy. Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"... I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn. Clearly their are lots of measures. So i just went with the most obvious. Instead of researching a bunch up and you claim its propaganda. How about you prove your claim instead of having others disprove it
Someone help him please?
You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse.
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On July 23 2018 09:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
Someone help him please?
You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse.
At this stage you've provided exactly as much evidence to the thread for your assertion as JimmiC has.
Since we both know damn well that you'd find some reason to dismiss whatever he dredges up, I don't really blame him either. You can't expect him to play after he watched you stack the deck.
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United States43755 Posts
On July 23 2018 09:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 09:04 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:46 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:38 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]There is more to progress then just election reform.
If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump
ect ect.
If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. On July 23 2018 08:25 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
A lot of people do not have the luxury of demanding a perfect candidate because there will be immediate consequences to people they care about if the greater of two evils wins. That's why the stereotypical green party progressive is so privileged, they're people who won't suffer from their own idealism. A lot of people don't have the luxury of supporting lesser of two evilsm because they both already have been treating them much worse for decades. Trying to use this privilege argument may work on the bros who don't give a shit about exploited people and are just trustafarian anarcho's and hipster socialists, but you should know that it falls completely flat on folks like myself. If you're not materially worse off under Trump than you would have been under Clinton then for the purpose of this argument you're privileged. Your healthy privilege, your citizen privilege, etc. Ignoring the concerns of those who don't share that is pretty shitty. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say or who you're talking about. I'm trying to say that if you're not worried about your kid dying due to Obamacare repeal, that's a form of privilege. If you're not worried about ICE showing up at your place of work under Trump, that's a form of privilege. You can insist that things were shit before and they'll be shit either way, and maybe for you that's true. But for a lot of people less privileged than you there will be a material difference in the outcome based on the election result. You're ignoring their concerns. Oh in that case, of course not. I and generations before me have just done this dance and it doesn't get better. They just get more entrenched and the exploitation finds a different target. Pushing the exploitation from community to community is just facilitating/enabling the exploitation, it's not confronting it. I'm not ignoring their concerns, I'm balancing them with the people they're perfectly fine exploiting so long as their material conditions don't change, as well as empty calls of empathy from those perfectly fine with elites exploiting them both so long as they too can exploit the system. Your decision to ignore their concerns, after considering them and weighing them in the balance, doesn't look especially different from privilege from where I'm sitting. You're confusing the ignoring and benefiting which you're used to, with a sincerely trying to address the underlying issues. I understand your confusion Why they look the same from your own position of privilege, but they aren't at all the same. Of course things have gotten worse for me personally under Trump. As well as having close friends and family who are directly threatened, specifically by policy as uniquely Trumpian as we could imagine. Turns out when you actually have relationships with these people. They are a part of your community and you of theirs, when you talk to them about this stuff, they actually can't stand the empty empathy you're attempting. Which basically boils down to "here's the level of exploitation I'm comfortable enough with to not raise any trouble for the elites exploiting them. Ideally I've mastered this exploitative system enough to ensure my own security, thanks to my privilege and diligence." They/we aren't interested in it and you can keep it. Honestly it just feels a lot like you're not willing or able to acknowledge the privilege that you yourself benefit from. Women's health issues matter, deportation matters, healthcare really matters, trade policy matters, legal protection for LGBT folk matters, and so on. Your (presumed on my part) status as a straight male healthy employed citizen is privilege, whether you choose to view it as such or not. For the purpose of this election, you're not the one getting fucked. Really? You seem to have forgotten an important descriptor...
Because a list of the ways in which you’re not privileged is not material to the argument that you do benefit from some privileges in this election. Hell, if there were actually no difference between the two choices for black people, as you have argued, then race wouldn't a privilege at all.
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United States43755 Posts
On July 23 2018 09:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 09:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 07:56 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
The discussion we just had was about general policy. Election reform never entered into it.
If you seriously want large scale election reforms your much better off looking at starting a revolution then a political movement. I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy. Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"... I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn. Clearly their are lots of measures. So i just went with the most obvious. Instead of researching a bunch up and you claim its propaganda. How about you prove your claim instead of having others disprove it Someone help him please? You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse.
The American south has started allowing black people to vote. That’s not nothing.
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On July 23 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 09:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:On July 23 2018 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you think we were talking about, but I was trying to explain to you why your calls for supporting corporate Democrats in a lesser of two evilism were moving us away from progress and not toward it. It seems you either didn't understand or now agree with me and disagree with your previous argument. There is more to progress then just election reform. If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump ect ect. If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy. Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"... I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn. Clearly their are lots of measures. So i just went with the most obvious. Instead of researching a bunch up and you claim its propaganda. How about you prove your claim instead of having others disprove it Someone help him please? You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse. The American south has started allowing black people to vote. That’s not nothing.
Have they? Last I checked voter rights were going the other direction as well.
On July 23 2018 09:23 JimmiC wrote:
Exactly we could all bring up 10 reasons they have it better. Do they have it equal or great? No. But that is why Hyperbole is so dangerous, because people then don't believe the reasonable things you say.
So far we have 1 president that had the same number of white parents as they did black parents and some more voting in the south (which is actively being undone).
The reason why you guys didn't just pick up some quick statistics showing the gap has closed in significant ways on significant measurements of success for a given population is because they haven't, not because of how I'd respond.
but you guys do you.
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United States43755 Posts
On July 23 2018 09:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 09:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:07 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]There is more to progress then just election reform.
If you care about gay rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about women rights your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about immigrants your better of with Clinton then Trump
If you care about healthcare your better of with Clinton then Trump
ect ect.
If you care about election reform your fucked because its not happening. Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps. That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality? You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy. Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"... I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn. Clearly their are lots of measures. So i just went with the most obvious. Instead of researching a bunch up and you claim its propaganda. How about you prove your claim instead of having others disprove it Someone help him please? You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse. The American south has started allowing black people to vote. That’s not nothing. Have they? Last I checked voter rights were going the other direction as well.
Yes, they have. Racially designed felon disenfranchisement is still a problem but they've taken steps to codify what actually causes disenfranchisement, rather than leaving it to the good old boys at the local polling station. And that codification has led to white people losing the vote too, which in turn is building support for reform.
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On July 23 2018 09:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 09:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 09:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:21 Kyadytim wrote:On July 23 2018 08:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, exactly. You're saying voting for the person who wants to be less destructive (but still destructive) to all of those things/people/issues is our only choice and trying to fix it is hopeless. So all the groups who have been getting screwed over since before Trump and under decades of straight Democrat party rule should continue to enthusiastically vote for Clintons to stave off Trumps.
That's literally insanity. Can you still not understand why I can and should reject that nonsense argument in totality?
You say this as though things haven't been getting better for women, gay people, and seriously ill people and that Democrats, for all of their flaws, haven't been contributing to things getting better for them. Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's? You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?" I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy. Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"... I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn. Clearly their are lots of measures. So i just went with the most obvious. Instead of researching a bunch up and you claim its propaganda. How about you prove your claim instead of having others disprove it Someone help him please? You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse. The American south has started allowing black people to vote. That’s not nothing. Have they? Last I checked voter rights were going the other direction as well. Yes, they have. Racially designed felon disenfranchisement is still a problem but they've taken steps to codify what actually causes disenfranchisement, rather than leaving it to the good old boys at the local polling station. And that codification has led to white people losing the vote too, which in turn is building support for reform.
granting for the moment this narrative is true. How do we measure that?
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On July 23 2018 10:02 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 09:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:46 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 09:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 09:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Answer me this if you would please. In what measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's?
You point to the unintended consequences of exploitation of the many and wealth accumulation of the few and say "but don't you see the benefits?!?"
I mean it betrays such a fundamentally different relationship with dynamics at play I don't even know where to begin addressing it. Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy. Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"... I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn. Clearly their are lots of measures. So i just went with the most obvious. Instead of researching a bunch up and you claim its propaganda. How about you prove your claim instead of having others disprove it Someone help him please? You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse. The American south has started allowing black people to vote. That’s not nothing. Have they? Last I checked voter rights were going the other direction as well. Yes, they have. Racially designed felon disenfranchisement is still a problem but they've taken steps to codify what actually causes disenfranchisement, rather than leaving it to the good old boys at the local polling station. And that codification has led to white people losing the vote too, which in turn is building support for reform. granting for the moment this narrative is true. How do we measure that? Ok here are some, feel free to all them Fake news but please for once also back up your own claim. Today, far more African-Americans graduate from college – 38 percent – than they did 50 years ago. Legally, African-Americans may live in any community they want – and from Beverly Hills to the Upper East Side, they can and do. Black adults experienced a more significant income increase from 1980 to 2016 – from $28,667 to $39,490 – than any other U.S. demographic group. This, in part, is why there’s now a significant black middle class. In 1965, there were no blacks in the U.S. Senate, nor were there any black governors. And only six members of the House of Representatives were black. By 2015, there was greater representation in some areas (44 House members were black) but little change in others (there were two black senators and one black governor). The share of blacks who have served in a presidential Cabinet, however, has been generally high – even above parity with the population – under administrations in the past two decades. Not to mention the whole lynching not being "that bad" in the 60's the Klan losing much of its power (others have risen of course but not to the overt power that the Klan once had) I mean it was a pretty low bar from the 60's to now. I bet many older black people would be super offended that you think it as bad now.
surely you pulled those numbers from somewhere so a link would be appreciated and I'll take a look. I think you may want to take a closer look at some of those segregation numbers as well.
Also remember, the request was for "measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's".
EDIT: In a bit of a rush and I didn't get to the rest.
You may not be aware but representation =/= improvement by nature of shared assigned categories. There were Jewish Nazi's for example.
That's not to equate Black representation to Nazi's or anything, but to say that being something doesn't mean you can't perpetuate the most horrific crimes against that group.
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On July 23 2018 10:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 10:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 09:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:46 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 09:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 09:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy.
Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"... I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn. Clearly their are lots of measures. So i just went with the most obvious. Instead of researching a bunch up and you claim its propaganda. How about you prove your claim instead of having others disprove it Someone help him please? You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse. The American south has started allowing black people to vote. That’s not nothing. Have they? Last I checked voter rights were going the other direction as well. Yes, they have. Racially designed felon disenfranchisement is still a problem but they've taken steps to codify what actually causes disenfranchisement, rather than leaving it to the good old boys at the local polling station. And that codification has led to white people losing the vote too, which in turn is building support for reform. granting for the moment this narrative is true. How do we measure that? Ok here are some, feel free to all them Fake news but please for once also back up your own claim. Today, far more African-Americans graduate from college – 38 percent – than they did 50 years ago. Legally, African-Americans may live in any community they want – and from Beverly Hills to the Upper East Side, they can and do. Black adults experienced a more significant income increase from 1980 to 2016 – from $28,667 to $39,490 – than any other U.S. demographic group. This, in part, is why there’s now a significant black middle class. In 1965, there were no blacks in the U.S. Senate, nor were there any black governors. And only six members of the House of Representatives were black. By 2015, there was greater representation in some areas (44 House members were black) but little change in others (there were two black senators and one black governor). The share of blacks who have served in a presidential Cabinet, however, has been generally high – even above parity with the population – under administrations in the past two decades. Not to mention the whole lynching not being "that bad" in the 60's the Klan losing much of its power (others have risen of course but not to the overt power that the Klan once had) I mean it was a pretty low bar from the 60's to now. I bet many older black people would be super offended that you think it as bad now. surely you pulled those numbers from somewhere so a link would be appreciated and I'll take a look. I think you may want to take a closer look at some of those segregation numbers as well. Also remember, the request was for "measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's". EDIT: In a bit of a rush and I didn't get to the rest. You may not be aware but representation =/= improvement by nature of shared assigned categories. There were Jewish Nazi's for example. That's not to equate Black representation to Nazi's or anything, but to say that being something doesn't mean you can't perpetuate the most horrific crimes against that group.
What he posted is quite measurable, and are examples of the gap closing.
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United States6959 Posts
On July 23 2018 10:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 10:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 09:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:46 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 09:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:21 KwarK wrote:On July 23 2018 09:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 09:10 JimmiC wrote:On July 23 2018 08:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 23 2018 08:33 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Number of presidents and many Many others. Your soap box is getting very tippy.
Seriously... In "measurable improvements for Black people relative to white people" you just unironically went with "you got a president!"... I know this is ignorance and not racism but damn. Clearly their are lots of measures. So i just went with the most obvious. Instead of researching a bunch up and you claim its propaganda. How about you prove your claim instead of having others disprove it Someone help him please? You claim it's clearly obvious there are many measurable improvements, either you can show them or you're just assuming without having previously done the research. As you've demonstrated, you're pulling that assertion out of your arse. The American south has started allowing black people to vote. That’s not nothing. Have they? Last I checked voter rights were going the other direction as well. Yes, they have. Racially designed felon disenfranchisement is still a problem but they've taken steps to codify what actually causes disenfranchisement, rather than leaving it to the good old boys at the local polling station. And that codification has led to white people losing the vote too, which in turn is building support for reform. granting for the moment this narrative is true. How do we measure that? Ok here are some, feel free to all them Fake news but please for once also back up your own claim. Today, far more African-Americans graduate from college – 38 percent – than they did 50 years ago. Legally, African-Americans may live in any community they want – and from Beverly Hills to the Upper East Side, they can and do. Black adults experienced a more significant income increase from 1980 to 2016 – from $28,667 to $39,490 – than any other U.S. demographic group. This, in part, is why there’s now a significant black middle class. In 1965, there were no blacks in the U.S. Senate, nor were there any black governors. And only six members of the House of Representatives were black. By 2015, there was greater representation in some areas (44 House members were black) but little change in others (there were two black senators and one black governor). The share of blacks who have served in a presidential Cabinet, however, has been generally high – even above parity with the population – under administrations in the past two decades. Not to mention the whole lynching not being "that bad" in the 60's the Klan losing much of its power (others have risen of course but not to the overt power that the Klan once had) I mean it was a pretty low bar from the 60's to now. I bet many older black people would be super offended that you think it as bad now. surely you pulled those numbers from somewhere so a link would be appreciated and I'll take a look. I think you may want to take a closer look at some of those segregation numbers as well. Also remember, the request was for "measurable ways has the gap between white and Black people closed since the 60's". EDIT: In a bit of a rush and I didn't get to the rest. You may not be aware but representation =/= improvement by nature of shared assigned categories. There were Jewish Nazi's for example. That's not to equate Black representation to Nazi's or anything, but to say that being something doesn't mean you can't perpetuate the most horrific crimes against that group.
This kind of response is why you're rarely taken seriously anymore.
Everyone here can already see that no matter what JimmiC says, you're going to come up with some convoluted excuse to trivialize the data that he shows you.
God himself could appear in front of you, tell you you're wrong, and you would come up with some excuse to tell God that he's wrong.
This is why people don't like talking to you anymore.
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GH, it really does seem like you're trying to dismiss or dodge several good points in bad faith. I'm curious as to why it's so important to not agree with JimmiC's measurable evidences; it's not like a concession here would slippery slope to "...and therefore, blacks are treated perfectly equally to whites and fairly and equitably across our society, we're post-racism, etc."
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EPT
