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On July 01 2025 01:00 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 00:55 Uldridge wrote:
How much blame or "i told you so" should someone get when they can't properly ascertain the impact of what they're actually doing? Enough for them to stop doing that. They need to feel like they've made an idiotic mistake to wisen up. If they're perpetually cradled into thinking they have no agency, they have no reason to change. + Show Spoiler +I feel bad for people who can't see beyond their own nose. Instead of berating them for the umpteenth time, I like to meet them with compassion. I forgive people who voted Trump in 2016, but since then he's cut taxes for the rich, killed a hundred thousand people with his negligent response to COVID, and become an adjudicated rapist. If you still voted for him in 2024 despite that, you're beyond where compassionate understanding can reach. You need dedicated therapy. By the way, you lot were doing the same shtick in 2016. You didn't chalk it up to ignorance as far as I can remember. You've been stoking the flames since then. Never have you shown compassion. Only ever was it: lol the leopards are their faces. Maybe without the lol and more with a somber acknowledgement of being correct. But still, the sassy mudslinging of trying to be right over this shit still comes back to my base claim that this is doing nothing but fuel the culture wars. Maybe you guys do need another civil war, just to get it out of your system though, the South has been itching for a while to get back at you. You're now literally doing the same thing you've been berating people for in the past two pages of this thread.
If this doesn't work on Democrat supporters, why would it work on Republican supporters?
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On July 01 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 01:00 LightSpectra wrote:On July 01 2025 00:55 Uldridge wrote:
How much blame or "i told you so" should someone get when they can't properly ascertain the impact of what they're actually doing? Enough for them to stop doing that. They need to feel like they've made an idiotic mistake to wisen up. If they're perpetually cradled into thinking they have no agency, they have no reason to change. + Show Spoiler +I feel bad for people who can't see beyond their own nose. Instead of berating them for the umpteenth time, I like to meet them with compassion. I forgive people who voted Trump in 2016, but since then he's cut taxes for the rich, killed a hundred thousand people with his negligent response to COVID, and become an adjudicated rapist. If you still voted for him in 2024 despite that, you're beyond where compassionate understanding can reach. You need dedicated therapy. By the way, you lot were doing the same shtick in 2016. You didn't chalk it up to ignorance as far as I can remember. You've been stoking the flames since then. Never have you shown compassion. Only ever was it: lol the leopards are their faces. Maybe without the lol and more with a somber acknowledgement of being correct. But still, the sassy mudslinging of trying to be right over this shit still comes back to my base claim that this is doing nothing but fuel the culture wars. Maybe you guys do need another civil war, just to get it out of your system though, the South has been itching for a while to get back at you. You're now literally doing the same thing you've been berating people for in the past two pages of this thread. If this doesn't work on Democrat supporters, why would it work on Republican supporters?
Weak trolling attempt, you're still being way too obvious about it.
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People shouldn't see "let republicans burn the place down" as ill-intended. There is genuinely a lot of value in people being reminded why we have certain things and why "safety nets" and "entitlements" are essential. It is similar to how Europe started to forget war is a real thing.
The EPA was formed by Nixon because everyone at the time had a really clear view what happens when we rely on market pressure to discourage companies from poisoning our drinking water. Ask most republicans how they feel about the EPA and they won't tell you drinking water isn't important. They will tell you we don't need the EPA to have clean drinking water. This is of course incredibly stupid, but its worth seeing they have the same goal as we do.
They need this horrible bill to overcome their inability to read and instead have real-world experiences to consider when deciding how we ought to design our society. Without direct memories of hardship related to medicaid cuts, they will always support medicaid cuts. We can't move on until we change their minds.
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United States44361 Posts
On June 30 2025 22:52 Uldridge wrote:
Time to round them up! Collectively soft cleansing 10 million people, worse than Hitler, I'm sure? Maybe calling them that (again) might help soften their stance on their fellow citizen.
That's the beauty of it. We don't have to do anything, they'll round themselves up and they'll feel smug about it. We literally don't need to do anything here.
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On July 01 2025 00:38 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 00:14 Simberto wrote:
Half are below the mean, but only about 14% are one standard deviation below the mean, which is an IQ of 85. Also, your argument is confusing here.
You seemed to first claim that people at 80 or 90 IQ are too stupid to be evil.
Now you seem to claim that people at 80 or 90 IQ aren't that stupid anyways, which would invalidate your previous argument. How developed do you think the ethical framework is going to be? I considered "evilness" to have a certain sophistication that is more than just "I deserve to be kept safe and I don't care about others, no in fact, screw the others". That's like baseline tribalism.
Being evil does not require a sophisticated ethical framework imo. "It is fun to hurt others, so i will do that." is evil. "This will hurt other people, but i want it" is evil. Both are not very complex ideas.
Evil is fundamentally about egoism and a lack of empathy. Neither requires great intellect or sophistication. "Evil starts when you begin to treat other people as things."
You can be evil by building complex evil plans for world domination. Or by holding your daughter captive as a sex slave in your basement. Both are evil.
And, of course, few people actually view themselves as evil. As MagicPowers described, there are a lot of ways evil people can still feel good while doing evil.
One additional and very often used way is "These people i hurt are not actually real people/lesser somehow/evil themselves."
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On July 01 2025 02:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 22:52 Uldridge wrote:
Time to round them up! Collectively soft cleansing 10 million people, worse than Hitler, I'm sure? Maybe calling them that (again) might help soften their stance on their fellow citizen. That's the beauty of it. We don't have to do anything, they'll round themselves up and they'll feel smug about it. We literally don't need to do anything here.
Auto eugenics, or self social cleansing. You could make a marketing campaign around it that tells them they're doing their part.
On July 01 2025 02:36 Simberto wrote:
Being evil does not require a sophisticated ethical framework imo. "It is fun to hurt others, so i will do that." is evil. "This will hurt other people, but i want it" is evil. Both are not very complex ideas.
Evil is fundamentally about egoism and a lack of empathy. Neither requires great intellect or sophistication. "Evil starts when you begin to treat other people as things."
You can be evil by building complex evil plans for world domination. Or by holding your daughter captive as a sex slave in your basement. Both are evil.
And, of course, few people actually view themselves as evil. As MagicPowers described, there are a lot of ways evil people can still feel good while doing evil.
One additional and very often used way is "These people i hurt are not actually real people/lesser somehow/evil themselves."
Okay, sure. And how evil on the evil scale is the: I hope they hurt themselves in the process? Like a low 2 or something?
In any case, I don't think the slippery slope of "let's see how evil the lesser of two evils can be", is not one I'd like to see bare fruit. Let's hope this isn't the start of that. I get the fatigue with these stubborn people. They don't know what's best for them, I truly get that. But they're also disenfranchized. It's a problem that needs solving and it's not going to be solved by going over to them and yelling (basically pointing out how retarded they are): "See, DJT is a fucking moron who's going to fuck you over, see how fucking stupid you are for voting for him? See that guy over there, that's the Democratic candidate, that's the guy who's actually better because blablabla." I think they're genuinely lost people in search of some hope. The evil is just a byproduct of propaganda. Ordinary men become Nazis very easily and all that.
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This thread on repeat
"if you back Republicans you're evil because their policies hurt people"
GH: ditto if you back Democrat politicians that support Israel's genocide in Gaza
"hey stfu, GH."
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That might be something approaching a "gotcha!" if Trump's policy on supporting Israel wasn't even worse than Biden's. To say nothing of Harris calling for a ceasefire multiple times.
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On July 01 2025 04:09 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 02:29 KwarK wrote:On June 30 2025 22:52 Uldridge wrote:
Time to round them up! Collectively soft cleansing 10 million people, worse than Hitler, I'm sure? Maybe calling them that (again) might help soften their stance on their fellow citizen. That's the beauty of it. We don't have to do anything, they'll round themselves up and they'll feel smug about it. We literally don't need to do anything here. Auto eugenics, or self social cleansing. You could make a marketing campaign around it that tells them they're doing their part. Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 02:36 Simberto wrote:
Being evil does not require a sophisticated ethical framework imo. "It is fun to hurt others, so i will do that." is evil. "This will hurt other people, but i want it" is evil. Both are not very complex ideas.
Evil is fundamentally about egoism and a lack of empathy. Neither requires great intellect or sophistication. "Evil starts when you begin to treat other people as things."
You can be evil by building complex evil plans for world domination. Or by holding your daughter captive as a sex slave in your basement. Both are evil.
And, of course, few people actually view themselves as evil. As MagicPowers described, there are a lot of ways evil people can still feel good while doing evil.
One additional and very often used way is "These people i hurt are not actually real people/lesser somehow/evil themselves." Okay, sure. And how evil on the evil scale is the: I hope they hurt themselves in the process? Like a low 2 or something? In any case, I don't think the slippery slope of "let's see how evil the lesser of two evils can be", is not one I'd like to see bare fruit. Let's hope this isn't the start of that. I get the fatigue with these stubborn people. They don't know what's best for them, I truly get that. But they're also disenfranchized. It's a problem that needs solving and it's not going to be solved by going over to them and yelling (basically pointing out how retarded they are): "See, DJT is a fucking moron who's going to fuck you over, see how fucking stupid you are for voting for him? See that guy over there, that's the Democratic candidate, that's the guy who's actually better because blablabla." I think they're genuinely lost people in search of some hope. The evil is just a byproduct of propaganda. Ordinary men become Nazis very easily and all that.
Okay, so what is your proposal of dealing with these "accidentally through no fault of their own" evil people?
Just buffer any consequences they get from their actions and hope that they will eventually become good again if nothing bad ever happens to them?
Be really nice to them and hope they stop supporting idiotic evil?
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United States44361 Posts
It would be profoundly undemocratic to refuse them what they voted for just because we, who lost the election, don’t think it is a good idea. We have to remember that these people want their healthcare taken away, they’re truly passionate about tax cuts for the rich, deficit spending is what they voted for. We might not understand it, we might not agree with it, but in a democratic society we have to respect their wishes.
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Give them a better cult and through incremental progression you embed the ideology through their progeny. I don't have enough prophetic skills to know how that would actually look like though. People who tend to be disagreeable in nature tend to skew to the right. Difficult to attract them to a more social model honestly.
While that could help for a more sympathetic society, my actual prediction will be that people will start segregating on an ideological basis if we can't sort this shit out. We're rapidly finding out that we can't figure out the base disagreements, that seem to be grounded in fundamental human personality traits, that are exaggerated through social media. Oh, maybe we should try to kill social media first and see how that works out. Maybe we'll feign being nice to each other again.
Maybe I'm overestimating how shitty everything is though. Seems like many people still just want to just live more or less normal lives and because they get roped in to having to choose a side and they get lumped in with the crazy crowd. Which ideological base they've chosen doesn't really matter because the other side will paint them as such anyway.
So... I don't know myself, but I refuse to think they're evil and they should get what they deserve, although the cynical part of me would really really like to partake in the schadenfreude. A few years ago I'd probably do so.
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Northern Ireland27462 Posts
On July 01 2025 04:09 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 02:29 KwarK wrote:On June 30 2025 22:52 Uldridge wrote:
Time to round them up! Collectively soft cleansing 10 million people, worse than Hitler, I'm sure? Maybe calling them that (again) might help soften their stance on their fellow citizen. That's the beauty of it. We don't have to do anything, they'll round themselves up and they'll feel smug about it. We literally don't need to do anything here. Auto eugenics, or self social cleansing. You could make a marketing campaign around it that tells them they're doing their part. Show nested quote +On July 01 2025 02:36 Simberto wrote:
Being evil does not require a sophisticated ethical framework imo. "It is fun to hurt others, so i will do that." is evil. "This will hurt other people, but i want it" is evil. Both are not very complex ideas.
Evil is fundamentally about egoism and a lack of empathy. Neither requires great intellect or sophistication. "Evil starts when you begin to treat other people as things."
You can be evil by building complex evil plans for world domination. Or by holding your daughter captive as a sex slave in your basement. Both are evil.
And, of course, few people actually view themselves as evil. As MagicPowers described, there are a lot of ways evil people can still feel good while doing evil.
One additional and very often used way is "These people i hurt are not actually real people/lesser somehow/evil themselves." Okay, sure. And how evil on the evil scale is the: I hope they hurt themselves in the process? Like a low 2 or something? In any case, I don't think the slippery slope of "let's see how evil the lesser of two evils can be", is not one I'd like to see bare fruit. Let's hope this isn't the start of that. I get the fatigue with these stubborn people. They don't know what's best for them, I truly get that. But they're also disenfranchized. It's a problem that needs solving and it's not going to be solved by going over to them and yelling (basically pointing out how retarded they are): "See, DJT is a fucking moron who's going to fuck you over, see how fucking stupid you are for voting for him? See that guy over there, that's the Democratic candidate, that's the guy who's actually better because blablabla." I think they're genuinely lost people in search of some hope. The evil is just a byproduct of propaganda. Ordinary men become Nazis very easily and all that.
Disenfranchised why? That’ll vary quite a bit.
You act like this is some revelation and that some of us haven’t been trying a whole slew of methods or communications for years.
Folks can be rather different even if they’re in the same ‘camp’, as it were. Indeed others in the thread have somewhat stressed this.
Person A may just genuinely be misinformed, and upon that gap being bridged, change their opinion. Person B may not be malicious in motive, but too stubborn or proud to change course in the short term. Person C may just be a cunt.
I can already have sway with a person A, and it may take time and a different approach, but I can sometimes swing a B. A C I just gotta cut my losses.
I think at the absolute core of MAGA resentment , and other right-wing populism is simply, advantageous treatment for people who are like me, punish my perceived enemies.
Adjacent to that, you’ve got your people who feel alienated, but don’t have that resentment necessarily spilling over into ‘fuck x group’, and yeah, I’m sure you can shave some off those off with good policy, and good presentation of policy that might address some of their gripes.
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Let's hope then that the Reps fuck up so badly this term that they sway a whole lot of As and Bs and enough Cs to swing it back.
To be clear, I'm not actually hopeful of swaying these people, I'm just not convinced throwing fuel on the fire or cheering for their misfortunes, no matter how much they've chosen their own fate is what you should be doing. You're just stooping down do their level. You're just becoming a bit more of a C and I'm not sure we know the implications of us all becoming Cs.
Don't cheer for their misfortune. Don't be overly nice to pander to them. Just be aloof about it and help your fellow human in need if they need it.
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On July 01 2025 02:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2025 22:52 Uldridge wrote:
Time to round them up! Collectively soft cleansing 10 million people, worse than Hitler, I'm sure? Maybe calling them that (again) might help soften their stance on their fellow citizen. That's the beauty of it. We don't have to do anything, they'll round themselves up and they'll feel smug about it. We literally don't need to do anything here.
If its too hard to find the Illegal immigrant criminals we've been telling everyone there is in america, lets go after the ones who were paying taxes or were here legally and go after them. Its much easier to find the people who are willing to tell you where they are, or have been.
The irony of GH wanting a socialist revolution asking why suffering is inevitable is peak thread.
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Its not cheering for their misfortune to hope they can feel the ramifications of their actions and change their mind. A vote happened, people were warned of possibilities of what could happen if they voted the way they voted. Some of those warnings may never come to pass and some have come to pass. Shit happens at this point.
I kinda want democrats , voters, and the media to start holding people accountable and make them explain specifics on policies and their beliefs. What they will do to fix things, etc. Letting people talk in generalities and not give specifics makes it a lot easier to divide people. If you have to provide a reasonable explanation and respond to point and counter points thats the only way we can come to some type of compromise and expose people who have no interest in compromising or finding the best solutions.
Im really worried because our media is so feckless in the US. They need to call out the bullshit.
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Northern Ireland27462 Posts
I’m sorry but if some Brit ex-pat who voted for Brexit gets booted out of Spain (and it’s usually Spain), I will absolutely quietly enjoy that.
If someone rails against benefits and that the disabled get too much money, and ends up disabled and broke themselves because of the cuts they advocated, well, ain’t karma a bitch?
There’s almost no more poetic a retribution possible.
Of course, the real world doesn’t operate on karma.
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I will admit I find it hard to parse how GH thinks Trump's Big Beautiful Bill is not inevitable. I mean, I guess his point is that USAans cam en masse march on the capitol and use their first and second amendment rights to prevent it from being signed into law? But we all know that is only happening in his own fever dreams, so we're back to it being inevitable.
I don't wish suffering on anybody, but it's coming regardless. So I share the sentiment that I hope MAGA get a taste of their own medicine.
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Its the same reason I has as much of an issue in hindsight with Bidens infrastructure bill. He disproportionately tried to help red states economies over the most efficient use of tax dollars. When Donald got into power and wanted to spite Biden as much as possible by repealing as much of his bills as possible he couldn't because the ones who would suffer were the republican states and officals that were benefiting so much from them.
Its useing GWOT logic that if you help a nation civilize and have the infrastructure to have a good standard of living that they're going to be grateful or improve their view of the west after all the sins of the past. The US in retrospect, should have abandoned Afghanistan and Iraq the moment the government was toppled and not spend any money or lives building those nations up.
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On July 01 2025 08:16 Sermokala wrote:
Its the same reason I has as much of an issue in hindsight with Bidens infrastructure bill. He disproportionately tried to help red states economies over the most efficient use of tax dollars. When Donald got into power and wanted to spite Biden as much as possible by repealing as much of his bills as possible he couldn't because the ones who would suffer were the republican states and officals that were benefiting so much from them.
Its useing GWOT logic that if you help a nation civilize and have the infrastructure to have a good standard of living that they're going to be grateful or improve their view of the west after all the sins of the past. The US in retrospect, should have abandoned Afghanistan and Iraq the moment the government was toppled and not spend any money or lives building those nations up.
Making things better has a deeply harmful effect because when life is too good, people think its just the nature of the universe. Its my favorite psychological failing. When entitlements and safety nets are functioning well, people push for eliminating entitlements and safety nets.
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Blue states are spending their own money killing gas and coal, any federal decarbonization plan is necessarily going to help red states more.
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EPT
