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Northern Ireland27089 Posts
On June 09 2025 23:28 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 21:55 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I feel like you guys are missing the point being made by the opposite side. It's not that cracking down on illegal immigration is okay. It's cracking down on illegal POC immigration that is bad. If you're only detaining someone with a certain complexion/skin tone/race/melanin count, then you get the preceding pages of discourse. If you argue that ALL illegal immigration is bad and therefore wish to see not only POC being raided, but ANY who overstay visas or enter illegally, you'd probably find common ground.
But we all know what is being insinuated here. That's all I have to say. Enjoy your head bashing. Yep. The fact that Musk was bragging about violating his visa proves this point. If someone breaks the law and when they show up to court, it's revealed they're an undocumented immigrant, then yeah it's fair play to deport them. Trumpers want you to think this is the thing the world has an objection to, and not the fact that ICE is going around with no identification, no warrant, abducting people based on their skin color, shipping them to a foreign country with no due process even if they can prove they're here legally (or are even U.S. citizens), lying to courts in the process, and telling the Senate that they don't have to follow any laws whatsoever because the president is king as soon as the border is involved. Trump admin backs ‘shocking proposition’ that feds can ‘snatch residents’ off street, ‘deposit them in foreign prisons’ with impunity, filing saysThis is not a 'law and order' party trying to get a broken immigration system under control, it's a lawless dictator saying he can remove people from the judicial process with zero oversight or objection.
I personally know more than a few Irish people who overstayed various visas
Americans love us much more than the other way around, but we’re the right kind of illegal immigrant. It’s a bit cheeky and quaint when we do it, but hey the Irish are good folks!
I’m going to go out on a limb here and make the assumption that if ICE went around detaining various folks whenever they hear an Irish accent, that would be rather unpopular, even amongst folks who are OK with them lifting folks for being Hispanic or w/e.
What’s the biggest issue most have with illegal immigration? It’s jobs right? If you want to, surely it’s feasible to dangle a combo of ICE checks and possible sanctions if you’re employing people who don’t have the right to work? Sure you’re not going to feasibly be able to cover a whole area the size of LA, but if it’s frequent and visible enough, you may see some self-regulation too if folks start to see the risks outweighing the rewards.
I’m not saying there’s none of this by any means, it’s not really presented as the public focus.
It’s the same in my country, illegal migration is bad because it distorts the job market, but the whole ‘who is giving them jobs though?’ element is massively absent in the discourse.
And hey, fake papers can be convincing. But surely you can create non-invasive tools for businesses to verify certain things?
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On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:
On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one.
Cruelty is the point, as far as I can tell.
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On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported.
Has someone communicated to you that streets have a magical power where they confer immunity from arrest? All I see is "unlawfully" "streets" and synonyms ad nauseam. Are you allowed to arrest people indoors but not outdoors? What does the unlawfulness hinge on?
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oBlade seeming genuinely confused that people are skeptical about ICE's ability to tell if someone is undocumented just by looking at them on the street is top-tier comedy.
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Northern Ireland27089 Posts
On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed.
Which is also a problem, even if it’s as much perception as reality when it comes to illegal migrants who want to correct their status.
Maybe the wheels of admin took too long to turn, or maybe you’re disorganised and didn’t get your shit together in time.
Are you going to want to fix that if you believe that the very act of trying to make your status legal again, will stick you on the ICE radar and get you deported anyway?
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On June 10 2025 00:22 LightSpectra wrote:
oBlade seeming genuinely confused that people are skeptical about ICE's ability to tell if someone is undocumented just by looking at them on the street is top-tier comedy.
You're right their elite skills of detective work must have disappeared the exact day after Biden's record setting non-racist deportation spree of genius political achievement ended, at which point they reverted to "look, a minority."
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On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem.
I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process.
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While not quite as funny, oBlade thinking leftists supported ICE when Biden was president is also comedic.
Edit: especially since a few pages ago he was saying Biden and Mayorkas were not even enforcing immigration law.
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Schrödinger's immigrant. Simultaneously taking American jobs by working harder for less money, but also lazy moochers getting welfare without paying taxes, but also ICE needs to freely access IRS data so they can find undocumented immigrants that pay taxes.
Schrödinger's enforcement. Simultaneously you're a hypocrite for supporting Biden/Obama because they deported tons of people, but also they didn't protect America by letting billions of people cross the border illegally.
Schrödinger's judicial system. Simultaneously it's too burdensome to find enough proof to get a warrant for raids, but ICE definitely has enough proof to arrest people on the street.
Schrödinger's mask. COVID masks made America dangerous because we need to be able to identify people, but cops with no identification arresting people is perfectly safe and not ripe for abuse.
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On June 10 2025 00:35 LightSpectra wrote:
While not quite as funny, oBlade thinking leftists supported ICE when Biden was president is also comedic.
Edit: especially since a few pages ago he was saying Biden and Mayorkas were not even enforcing immigration law.
They have one advantage, they at least thought the border was more real than you do.
On June 10 2025 00:51 LightSpectra wrote:
Schrödinger's judicial system. Simultaneously it's too burdensome to find enough proof to get a warrant for raids, but ICE definitely has enough proof to arrest people on the street.
Immigration officers write warrants for raids. This is absurd.
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On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result.
It's subtle, but it's there.
On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process.
Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing.
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On June 10 2025 00:51 oBlade wrote:
They have one advantage, they at least thought the border was more real than you do.
The border's absolutely real. The U.S. killed a shitload of Native Americans and Mexicans throughout history to get that border. I just don't think crossing it to work on a farm for the summer is such a heinous sin that we need to suspend rule of law and due process to punish people who do it.
Maybe the penalty for doing so should be the same as being caught committing fraud 34 times.
Immigration officers write warrants for raids. This is absurd.
US immigration officers ordered to arrest more people even without warrants
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On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing.
Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing.
I dont personally think illegal immigration is this huge scourge to our country like the right wing guys do but I also dont live in an area really impacted by it. GH you will turn off reasonable people by fighting over language like illegal immigrants or saying ICE shouldnt exist. I dont care what you call it but there has to be some type of immigration enforcement agency in a real country. ICE can go but someone has to do that job.
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On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. I dont personally think illegal immigration is this huge scourge to our country like the right wing guys do but I also dont live in an area really impacted by it. GH you will turn off reasonable people by fighting over language like illegal immigrants or saying ICE shouldnt exist. I dont care what you call it but there has to be some type of immigration enforcement agency in a real country. ICE can go but someone has to do that job. I'm not worried about "turning off" so called "reasonable people" by pointing out the fact that ICE's existence is a right wing thing born out of the bipartisan laying of fascist groundwork that came out of 9/11.
I was just pointing out how ostensibly left wing people are already falling into this trap of pushing right wing trash in an attempt to find some "reasonable" "middle".
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On June 10 2025 00:54 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 00:51 oBlade wrote:
They have one advantage, they at least thought the border was more real than you do. The border's absolutely real. The U.S. killed a shitload of Native Americans and Mexicans throughout history to get that border. I just don't think crossing it to work on a farm for the summer is such a heinous sin that we need to suspend rule of law and due process to punish people who do it. Maybe the penalty for doing so should be the same as being caught committing fraud 34 times. US immigration officers ordered to arrest more people even without warrants
1) You don't support ICE.
2) You support the rule of law and don't want to suspend it or due process.
Let's educate ourselves a little bit about ICE's rule of law because we ought to make sure we're clear about what their actual authority is and that we're not just making things up that sound good to us with no basis in reality.
Here's their ability to interrogate people:
+ Show Spoiler +Power and authority to interrogate and administer oaths. Any immigration officer is hereby authorized and designated to exercise anywhere in or outside the United States the power conferred by:
(1) Section 287(a)(1) of the Act to interrogate, without warrant, any alien or person believed to be an alien concerning his or her right to be, or to remain, in the United States, and
Here's who can write warrants for public "raids" (courthouse, workplace, street, basically anything that has been labelled "unlawful" in the last 20 pages)
+ Show Spoiler +Issuance of arrest warrants for immigration violations. A warrant of arrest may be issued by any of the following immigration officials who have been authorized or delegated such authority:
(i) District directors (except foreign);
(ii) Deputy district directors (except foreign);
(iii) Assistant district directors for investigations;
(iv) Deputy assistant district directors for investigations;
(v) Assistant district directors for deportation;
(vi) Deputy assistant district directors for deportation;
(vii) Assistant district directors for examinations;
(viii) Deputy assistant district directors for examinations;
(ix) Officers in charge (except foreign);
(x) Assistant officers in charge (except foreign);
(xi) Chief patrol agents;
(xii) Deputy chief patrol agents;
(xiii) Division chiefs;
(xiv) Assistant chief patrol agents;
(xv) Patrol agents in charge;
(xvi) Deputy patrol agents in charge;
(xvii) Border Patrol watch commanders;
(xviii) Special operations supervisors;
(xix) Supervisory border patrol agents;
(xx) Directors of air operations;
(xxi) Directors of marine operations;
(xxii) Supervisory air and marine interdiction agents;
(xxiii) Executive Associate Director of Homeland Security Investigations;
(xxiv) Institutional Hearing Program directors;
(xxv) Director, Field Operations;
(xxvi) Assistant Director, Field Operations;
(xxvii) Port directors;
(xxviii) Assistant port directors;
(xxix) Field operations watch commanders;
(xxx) Field operations chiefs;
(xxxi) Supervisory deportation officers;
(xxxii) Supervisory detention and deportation officers;
(xxxiii) Group Supervisors;
(xxxiv) Director, Office of Detention and Removal Operations;
(xxxv) Special Agents in Charge;
(xxxvi) Deputy Special Agents in Charge;
(xxxvii) Associate Special Agents in Charge;
(xxxviii) Assistant Special Agents in Charge;
(xxxix) Field Office Directors;
(xl) Deputy Field Office Directors;
(xli) District Field Officers;
(xlii) Supervisory immigration services officers;
(xliii) Supervisory immigration officers;
(xliv) Supervisory asylum officers;
(xlv) Supervisory special agents;
(xlvi) Director of investigations;
(xlvii) Directors or officers in charge of detention facilities;
(xlviii) Directors of field operations;
(xlix) Deputy or assistant directors of field operations;
(l) Unit Chief, Law Enforcement Support Center;
(li) Section Chief, Law Enforcement Support Center;
(lii) Immigration Enforcement Agents; or
(liii) Other duly authorized officers or employees of the Department of Homeland Security or the United States who are delegated the authority as provided in 8 CFR 2.1 to issue warrants of arrest, and who have successfully completed any required immigration law enforcement training.
Here's who can execute those warrants:
+ Show Spoiler +Service of warrant of arrests for immigration violations. The following immigration officers who have successfully completed basic immigration law enforcement training are hereby authorized and designated to exercise the power pursuant to section 287(a) of the Act to execute warrants of arrest for administrative immigration violations issued under section 236 of the Act or to execute warrants of criminal arrest issued under the authority of the United States:
(i) Border patrol agents;
(ii) Air and marine agents;
(iii) Special agents;
(iv) Deportation officers;
(v) Detention enforcement officers or immigration enforcement agents (warrants of arrest for administrative immigration violations only);
(vi) CBP officers;
(vii) Supervisory and managerial personnel who are responsible for supervising the activities of those officers listed in this paragraph; and
(viii) Immigration officers who need the authority to execute arrest warrants for immigration violations under section 287(a) of the Act in order to effectively accomplish their individual missions and who are designated, individually or as a class, by the Commissioner of CBP or the Assistant Secretary/Director of ICE.
Here's the authority for them to question, detain on reasonable suspicion, and make arrests, which you cited The Guardian quoting career federal agents lauding the policy of exercising that authority.
+ Show Spoiler +Interrogation and detention not amounting to arrest.
(1) Interrogation is questioning designed to elicit specific information. An immigration officer, like any other person, has the right to ask questions of anyone as long as the immigration officer does not restrain the freedom of an individual, not under arrest, to walk away.
(2) If the immigration officer has a reasonable suspicion, based on specific articulable facts, that the person being questioned is, or is attempting to be, engaged in an offense against the United States or is an alien illegally in the United States, the immigration officer may briefly detain the person for questioning.
(3) Information obtained from this questioning may provide the basis for a subsequent arrest, which must be effected only by a designated immigration officer, as listed in 8 CFR 287.5(c). The conduct of arrests is specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(c) Conduct of arrests —
(1) Authority. Only designated immigration officers are authorized to make an arrest. The list of designated immigration officers may vary depending on the type of arrest as listed in § 287.5(c)(1) through (c)(5).
(2) General procedures.
(i) An arrest shall be made only when the designated immigration officer has reason to believe that the person to be arrested has committed an offense against the United States or is an alien illegally in the United States.
(ii) A warrant of arrest shall be obtained except when the designated immigration officer has reason to believe that the person is likely to escape before a warrant can be obtained.
(iii) At the time of the arrest, the designated immigration officer shall, as soon as it is practical and safe to do so:
(A) Identify himself or herself as an immigration officer who is authorized to execute an arrest; and
(B) State that the person is under arrest and the reason for the arrest.
(iv) With respect to an alien arrested and administratively charged with being in the United States in violation of law, the arresting officer shall adhere to the procedures set forth in 8 CFR 287.3 if the arrest is made without a warrant.
(v) With respect to a person arrested and charged with a criminal violation of the laws of the United States, the arresting officer shall advise the person of the appropriate rights as required by law at the time of the arrest, or as soon thereafter as practicable. It is the duty of the immigration officer to assure that the warnings are given in a language the subject understands, and that the subject acknowledges that the warnings are understood. The fact that a person has been advised of his or her rights shall be documented on appropriate Department forms and made a part of the arrest record.
Here's them having the right to (meaning if communists are dropping kick scooters on their vehicles from bridges or hurling concrete at their windshields, they don't have to wait for LAPD or even the FBI to do it for them, they can arrest you then and there and you can call them the gestapo all the way to the bank, only it won't be the bank).
+ Show Spoiler +Arrests of persons under section 287(a)(5)(B) of the Act for any felony. (i) Section 287(a)(5)(B) of the Act authorizes designated immigration officers, as listed in paragraph (c)(4)(iii) of this section, to arrest persons, without warrant, for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States if:
(A) The immigration officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such a felony;
(B) The immigration officer is performing duties relating to the enforcement of the immigration laws at the time of the arrest;
(C) There is a likelihood of the person escaping before a warrant can be obtained for his or her arrest; and
(D) The immigration officer has been certified as successfully completing a training program that covers such arrests and the standards with respect to the immigration enforcement activities of the Department as defined in 8 CFR 287.8.
Here's their ability to execute criminal arrest warrants (i.e. judicial warrants).
+ Show Spoiler +Service of warrant of arrests for non-immigration violations. The following immigration officers who have successfully completed basic immigration law enforcement training are hereby authorized and designated to exercise the power to execute warrants of criminal arrest for non-immigration violations issued under the authority of the United States:
(i) Border patrol agents;
(ii) Air and marine agents;
(iii) CBP officers
(iv) Special agents;
(v) Deportation officers;
(vi) Immigration enforcement agents;
(vii) Supervisory and managerial personnel who are responsible for supervising the activities of those officers listed in this paragraph; and
(viii) Immigration officers who need the authority to execute warrants of arrest for non-immigration violations under section 287(a) of the Act in order to effectively accomplish their individual missions and who are designated, individually or as a class, by the Commissioner of CBP or the Assistant Secretary/Director of ICE.
Judicial warrant is probably what people mean every time they spam they don't have a warrant. They need judicial warrants specifically to go someplace like a person's house, because of the 4th amendment. And they need judicial warrants for criminal arrests, except other arrests they have probable cause for like they above if they see any felony in the course of their duties. They execute criminal arrest warrants and have that power because they work together with the FBI and DEA because there is overlap of huge federal criminals, smuggling drugs and running human trafficking rings and gangs, across the border, illegally. That's part of their duties.
Another part of their duties is civil immigration violations. They're not supposed to have a criminal warrant for a civil immigration violation. They're supposed to have an administrative warrant for that. Which certain officers, way above in the list, issue. That's the law. It's right there. I've scoured the law. At no point does it say, can't wear masks. At no point does it say can't drive around in cars (in fact, it specifies rules on transporting). At no point does it say, has to tell you, or me, or the mayor of LA, or the governor of California, what they are doing before they do it. At no point does it say "The street doesn't count, if they have no legal status but are on the street they're considered safe and can't be tagged out." That's the law, the code is not new, it's decades old. And it's straightforward, not hard to understand.
Now many people may not know these agencies exist when Democrats are in power. That doesn't mean they become illegal and against the law when the news cycle remembers they exist again under a Republican. Or that these laws don't count anymore because someone else ignored or didn't focus as much on enforcing them.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-8/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-287/
On June 10 2025 01:24 LightSpectra wrote:
What progress we're making, 20 years ago I would've had to go to Stormfront to read what you just posted.
When all else fails, call a .gov archive of the US Code... Nazis.
Pathetic.
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What progress we're making, 20 years ago I would've had to go to Stormfront to read what you just posted.
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On June 10 2025 01:16 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. I dont personally think illegal immigration is this huge scourge to our country like the right wing guys do but I also dont live in an area really impacted by it. GH you will turn off reasonable people by fighting over language like illegal immigrants or saying ICE shouldnt exist. I dont care what you call it but there has to be some type of immigration enforcement agency in a real country. ICE can go but someone has to do that job. I'm not worried about "turning off" so called "reasonable people" by pointing out the fact that ICE's existence is a right wing thing born out of the bipartisan laying of fascist groundwork that came out of 9/11. I was just pointing out how ostensibly left wing people are already falling into this trap of pushing right wing trash in an attempt to find some "reasonable" "middle".
Im not trying to find a reasonable middle im just pointing out that we should be specific in what our issues are with ICE and what they are doing. Enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil. What can be evil is how you go about doing it etc
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Guy that resorts to whataboutisms, strawmen, Schrödinger reasoning every single post in lieu of reading sources people show him thinks a few fragments of out-of-context legal code is a killer reply to the Trump administration literally telling Congress and judges that they're not beholden to any law when it comes to anything even remotely related to foreign policy.
In other news, I just had a really good béchamel lasagna for lunch.
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On June 10 2025 01:33 Sadist wrote:
Im not trying to find a reasonable middle im just pointing out that we should be specific in what our issues are with ICE and what they are doing. Enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil. What can be evil is how you go about doing it etc
Laws can be evil, and enforcing evil laws is evil. Nowadays we view the protesters who civilly disobeyed laws enforcing slavery and racial segregation as heroes, and the people who wrote and enforced those laws as being villains. Deporting an 11-year-old girl with brain cancer to a place she'll surely die is evil, even if it's lawful.
This country was founded upon a rebellion against taxes, quartering, etc. that were completely lawful to impose on a British colony. It's wildly hypocritical to live in a civilization with all sorts of benefits that were procured by heroic people breaking unjust laws in the past while simultaneously saying "it's the law, there's nothing we can do" in the present.
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On June 10 2025 01:24 LightSpectra wrote:
What progress we're making, 20 years ago I would've had to go to Stormfront to read what you just posted.
The local hells angels where I live have decided to move from the muni bar to the mexican resturant for their alcohol out of pr. The same guys with SS Thunderbolt inflatables are the ones who want to be the people rioting against the government in support of Hispanics.
I'm really worried that I'll be joining in a protest alongside Hells Angels I'm on a few calling lists in case theres a local raid and yeah its a werid time.
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EPT
