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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On June 10 2025 03:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well. It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite.
Its very clear that he doesn't really read our posts by his last post and doesn't even have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports. Hes the ultimate example of wanting other peoples cakes and to eat them too. Hes wildly alergic to engage with what people are saying in the thread and loves to make sweeping generalizations that are unsuported as fuck but also has no bearing to anyone in the thread.
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On June 10 2025 03:55 Magic Powers wrote:
For anyone wondering what happened that allowed the Nazis to come to power.
This.
This is what happened.
I'm perhaps delusionally optimistic, but I don't think Trump will win. He has the same charismatic sway over the uneducated that Hitler did, but a quarter of the intelligence, a tenth of the boldness, and a hundredth of the drive and energy.
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On June 10 2025 04:22 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 03:02 WombaT wrote:On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:
[quote]
I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws?
They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well. It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite. Its very clear that he doesn't really read our posts by his last post and doesn't even have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports. Hes the ultimate example of wanting other peoples cakes and to eat them too. Hes wildly alergic to engage with what people are saying in the thread and loves to make sweeping generalizations that are unsuported as fuck but also has no bearing to anyone in the thread.
"he doesn't have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports" is a hell of a sentence
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On June 10 2025 03:55 Magic Powers wrote:
For anyone wondering what happened that allowed the Nazis to come to power.
This.
This is what happened.
Hitler was born in Austria to Austrian parents, snuck into service in the German army, and renounced Austrian citizenship after the war to game Germany to letting him stay by making himself stateless while he resided there what would be the modern analogue of illegally.
Had he been deported at any point...
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Stormfront giving the unsolicited advice that we should embrace fascism because we might deport a potential-future fascist dictator really is something.
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On June 10 2025 02:19 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:The president suggesting one of his czars arrest Democrat politicians isn't a sign of a healthy democracy, is it? WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. President Donald Trump on Monday suggested that he would support an arrest of California Governor Gavin Newsom amid pro-immigration protests in the state, which prompted the president to deploy the National Guard.
On Saturday, Tom Homan, the administration's border czar, threatened to arrest anyone who obstructs immigration enforcement efforts in the state, including Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.
Newsom responded during an NBC News interview by challenging Homan to "just get it over with" and move ahead with the arrest.
Asked on Monday about Newsom daring Homan to arrest him, Trump said, "I would." www.yahoo.com No, totally a normal thing.
Oh, okay, nothing to worry about then.
It's normal in democracies for police to take aim and shoot (less lethal projectiles) at reporters too right?
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I'm gonna take an outrageous bet and say that he was very obviously being sarcastic
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On June 10 2025 05:15 blomsterjohn wrote:
I'm gonna take an outrageous bet and say that he was very obviously being sarcastic
Mayhaps I was joining in?
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On June 10 2025 05:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 05:15 blomsterjohn wrote:
I'm gonna take an outrageous bet and say that he was very obviously being sarcastic Mayhaps I was joining in?
No it doesn't look like that. It looks like more of your woke scolding behavior when you try to convince people who already agree with you to agree with you more by just being an ass to them about the thing you already agree about.
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On June 10 2025 04:38 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 04:22 Sermokala wrote:On June 10 2025 03:02 WombaT wrote:On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well. It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite. Its very clear that he doesn't really read our posts by his last post and doesn't even have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports. Hes the ultimate example of wanting other peoples cakes and to eat them too. Hes wildly alergic to engage with what people are saying in the thread and loves to make sweeping generalizations that are unsuported as fuck but also has no bearing to anyone in the thread. "he doesn't have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports" is a hell of a sentence
Yes it is, I'm glad to see you realize it describes you so well.
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"woke scolding behavior" is one of those phrases that's going to live in my head rent free.
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On June 10 2025 05:35 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 04:38 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 04:22 Sermokala wrote:On June 10 2025 03:02 WombaT wrote:On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:
[quote]
I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians.
Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically.
They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing.
Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:
[quote]
If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated.
I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well. It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite. Its very clear that he doesn't really read our posts by his last post and doesn't even have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports. Hes the ultimate example of wanting other peoples cakes and to eat them too. Hes wildly alergic to engage with what people are saying in the thread and loves to make sweeping generalizations that are unsuported as fuck but also has no bearing to anyone in the thread. "he doesn't have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports" is a hell of a sentence Yes it is, I'm glad to see you realize it describes you so well.
At least it makes sense to you
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On June 10 2025 05:54 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 05:35 Sermokala wrote:On June 10 2025 04:38 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 04:22 Sermokala wrote:On June 10 2025 03:02 WombaT wrote:On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt.
Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported.
On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one.
You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities.
By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population.
Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well. It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite. Its very clear that he doesn't really read our posts by his last post and doesn't even have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports. Hes the ultimate example of wanting other peoples cakes and to eat them too. Hes wildly alergic to engage with what people are saying in the thread and loves to make sweeping generalizations that are unsuported as fuck but also has no bearing to anyone in the thread. "he doesn't have the balls to own up to his support of the things he says he supports" is a hell of a sentence Yes it is, I'm glad to see you realize it describes you so well. At least it makes sense to you
Yes we are all aware of your inability to comprehend what other people post you didn't need to confirm it for everyone.
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On June 10 2025 05:33 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 05:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2025 05:15 blomsterjohn wrote:
I'm gonna take an outrageous bet and say that he was very obviously being sarcastic Mayhaps I was joining in? No it doesn't look like that. It looks like more of your woke scolding behavior when you try to convince people who already agree with you to agree with you more by just being an ass to them about the thing you already agree about.
I was being sarcastic. Glad you're opposed to being an ass to people you agree with, looking forward to you implementing that yourself.
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On June 10 2025 04:40 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 03:55 Magic Powers wrote:
For anyone wondering what happened that allowed the Nazis to come to power.
This.
This is what happened. Hitler was born in Austria to Austrian parents, snuck into service in the German army, and renounced Austrian citizenship after the war to game Germany to letting him stay by making himself stateless while he resided there what would be the modern analogue of illegally. Had he been deported at any point...
That oversight could have been corrected by hanging him in 1923 for treason.
I may think you have found the solution, hang trump and everyone who is with him.
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United States42431 Posts
On June 10 2025 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:19 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:The president suggesting one of his czars arrest Democrat politicians isn't a sign of a healthy democracy, is it? WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. President Donald Trump on Monday suggested that he would support an arrest of California Governor Gavin Newsom amid pro-immigration protests in the state, which prompted the president to deploy the National Guard.
On Saturday, Tom Homan, the administration's border czar, threatened to arrest anyone who obstructs immigration enforcement efforts in the state, including Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.
Newsom responded during an NBC News interview by challenging Homan to "just get it over with" and move ahead with the arrest.
Asked on Monday about Newsom daring Homan to arrest him, Trump said, "I would." www.yahoo.com No, totally a normal thing. Oh, okay, nothing to worry about then. It's normal in democracies for police to take aim and shoot (less lethal projectiles) at reporters too right? https://twitter.com/PopCrave/status/1931940182191923223
Only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun.
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Northern Ireland24860 Posts
On June 10 2025 04:07 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 03:02 WombaT wrote:On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:
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I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws?
They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well. It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite. You think people are saying the opposite? LightSpectra says illegal immigrants should be deported if they've committed a felony. That's what? Maybe 2% of illegal immigrants? A felony is a serious crime which maybe calls for a more serious punishment than "alright mister, you're going to have to leave now." You think GH is on board with deporting people that are living here illegally? Seriously? Sadist has been in on TL longer than anyone in this thread and he's also been a left/center-left guy the entire time. Insisting he's pushing right-wing trash for his position that, paraphrasing, "Trump/ICE are going about this all wrong but if you're living in a country illegally you shouldn't expect to be allowed to stay" is absurd. This comes after someone accused GH of pushing right-wing propaganda that Kamala Harris is a "DEI-Hire" for his opinion that she's not a good politician/candidate. In Gavin Newsom's latest podcast he talks about having close friends that now won't speak to him because of the crime of calling biological males in women's sports "an issue of fairness" and believing it's unfair to allow biological males compete against women. This is a guy that basically paved the way for gay marriage by ordering marriage licenses to be issues to same-sex couples in 2004 when it was still illegal in his state and around the country. He's what you might call an "ally" to the LGBT movement but now he's being called a transphobe for his radical position that women's spaces are for women. Jon Stewart said he faced an immediate and intense backlash for the absurd position of believing the wuhan coronavirus pandemic originated in the wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses. Crazy, I know. Same for Bill Maher who often talks about getting accused of joining MAGA anytime he strays from modern leftist ideology despite the fact he has been a lifelong liberal with unchanged beliefs. It's pushing people out of their party and it's losing elections. Joe Rogan used to be a pot-smoking Bernie Sanders supporter. Elon Musk was a relatively apolitical environmentalist. Now they are perhaps the two biggest people to help Trump get elected. The Republicans already had their civil war of sorts and unfortunately the crazy side won and Liz Cheney is no more. The rest of them have fallen in line behind Trump. The left needs to sort out their schism and hopefully this time the crazy side will lose but based on how the moderates kowtow to them I doubt it.
GH said something, everyone else who commented on not wanting illegal immigration not being innately right-wing disagreed with him. I personally disagree a bit with him there, although didn’t write a post/have a few caveats. Aside from the cultural friction, we don’t live under Marxism
In a thread that largely leans centre left thru further left, folks on that specific point were behaving largely the opposite way to your snarky generalisation.
Sure, those things can also be pretty prevalent more widely, but my point is why inject them back in when people are not exhibiting the behaviour that you find objectionable?
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On June 10 2025 02:15 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 01:34 LightSpectra wrote:
Guy that resorts to whataboutisms, strawmen, Schrödinger reasoning every single post in lieu of reading sources people show him thinks a few fragments of out-of-context legal code is a killer reply to the Trump administration literally telling Congress and judges that they're not beholden to any law when it comes to anything even remotely related to foreign policy.
Nearest I can tell from the reference is you're talking about the administration's position that a court couldn't order the return of Garcia because courts can't order the executive branch to do certain foreign policy actions. That claim is largely true. The same reason a court can't order the president to declare war on a country, a court can't really order a prisoner exchange, a trade deal, or getting a prisoner back. The thing about Garcia is that because he was in El Salvador's custody at the request and agreement with the US, there's an argument that he was in constructive custody of the US no matter where he was physically. But the claim was not that the president doesn't have to follow any laws. It was that courts can't run foreign policy. If there wasn't any responsibility to the law he wouldn't have bothered fucking specifically going through the invocation of this and that law and title authority and naming them as using them. Since LA hasn't seceded yet, ICE raids there aren't foreign policy. So the Garcia case isn't directly relevant. Add any context you like. There's only one US Code. If you don't know how law works, which I would never suspect, basically whenever a law gets passed it gets squeezed into the code. So "US law" isn't the entire list of every bill that ever passed, it's the encyclopediafication of every part of every law that gets passed by subject and subsection. Basically the same information, but reorganized. Title 8 is the one about immigration. Another subsection of it is where it says people going through immigration proceedings can have a lawyer - but not at the expensive of the government. Really interesting. Does that mean the law broke its own due process? Miranda rights right? I thought everyone gets a free lawyer if they can't afford one? Well, that applies to crimes. Illegal immigration isn't one. Do you want to make it one? Then there'd be public defenders abound. Or if the Supreme Court ruled something like the 6th amendment right to counsel also applies to people in civil administrative immigration proceedings. If you look closer, you can find the sections that authorize when you can deport people without any trial or any hearing with an immigration judge. Legally. It's really cool. Want me to help you find them? Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 01:42 LightSpectra wrote:On June 10 2025 01:33 Sadist wrote:
Im not trying to find a reasonable middle im just pointing out that we should be specific in what our issues are with ICE and what they are doing. Enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil. What can be evil is how you go about doing it etc Laws can be evil, and enforcing evil laws is evil. Nowadays we view the protesters who civilly disobeyed laws enforcing slavery and racial segregation as heroes, and the people who wrote and enforced those laws as being villains. Deporting an 11-year-old girl with brain cancer to a place she'll surely die is evil, even if it's lawful. This country was founded upon a rebellion against taxes, quartering, etc. that were completely lawful to impose on a British colony. It's wildly hypocritical to live in a civilization with all sorts of benefits that were procured by heroic people breaking unjust laws in the past while simultaneously saying "it's the law, there's nothing we can do" in the present. Paradoxically, laws can even be illegal, most easily backed up when the top court rules so. Less easily backed up by "That's UNLAWFUL!" immediately scrubbed by "Well, okay it's legal but out of context." The problem with the foreign policy defence of Garcia is that it allows the government to deport US citizens to a jail in a foreign country and then claim they don't have to return them because foreign policy.
But you know this, you just don't give a shit because you rest easy in the knowledge that no Democratic president is going to kidnap you to a salvadory golag.
Maybe that is the problem here...
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On June 10 2025 06:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 05:33 Sermokala wrote:On June 10 2025 05:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2025 05:15 blomsterjohn wrote:
I'm gonna take an outrageous bet and say that he was very obviously being sarcastic Mayhaps I was joining in? No it doesn't look like that. It looks like more of your woke scolding behavior when you try to convince people who already agree with you to agree with you more by just being an ass to them about the thing you already agree about. I was being sarcastic. Glad you're opposed to being an ass to people you agree with, looking forward to you implementing that yourself.
I get thats what you want it to look like but the fact that someone else posted the post you responded to shows you failed, instead of owning up to your failure you have to double down on your infalability by trying to confuse people. Its not clever GH and you've never given anyone a reason to care what you're looking forward too so why should I start now?
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Northern Ireland24860 Posts
On June 10 2025 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:19 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:The president suggesting one of his czars arrest Democrat politicians isn't a sign of a healthy democracy, is it? WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. President Donald Trump on Monday suggested that he would support an arrest of California Governor Gavin Newsom amid pro-immigration protests in the state, which prompted the president to deploy the National Guard.
On Saturday, Tom Homan, the administration's border czar, threatened to arrest anyone who obstructs immigration enforcement efforts in the state, including Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.
Newsom responded during an NBC News interview by challenging Homan to "just get it over with" and move ahead with the arrest.
Asked on Monday about Newsom daring Homan to arrest him, Trump said, "I would." www.yahoo.com No, totally a normal thing. Oh, okay, nothing to worry about then. It's normal in democracies for police to take aim and shoot (less lethal projectiles) at reporters too right?
Rioting is something of a national sport here, so as a consequence our policy are quite good at not escalating such scenarios. Indeed our riot police are a rare example of a real world class standard in any field. Rubber bullets are in the kit bag, but rarely used.
For me this side of the Atlantic, the US peelers seem particularly bad at de-escalating things.
There are two types of riots, those that start as riots, and those that turn into riots.
Now, I haven’t played super close attention to this batch, it may not apply here. But just as a general observation, the US police seem to frequently employ an almost worst of both worlds approach, IMO you’ve two real options.
A - Contain the disturbance, block off an area and basically sit there and take it until it fizzles out. Which is basically the PSNI’s approach. There are downsides, you’re asking a lot of the police and injuries do occur. Another is that, if you’re effectively saying you’ll sit there with your riot shields and take it, it emboldens some to have a crack as it were. But I think it’s a sensible approach, especially in Northern Ireland. Riots tend to occur at community boundaries and hotspots, so containment is rather sensible practice, as you want to keep those people from getting at each other.
B - Crush it ruthlessly. I’m not in favour of this approach, but if you’re going to employ force, it really has to be overwhelming.
If you escalate, a bit, what you tend to see is escalation from those you’re employing force on. You inject even more adrenaline into an already charged situation.
What clips I have seen here, and certainly from previous disturbances you’re seeing a real inability to de-escalate, and applications of force that seem unjustified, rather frequently. Of course, I’m only seeing snapshots but you’re seeing police taking potshots at some protestors who don’t even seem to be engaging in violence.
It was quite interesting visiting Italy there, I’d previously put down a lot of the problem of US policing to a quite militaristic police approach. Ok, ‘quite’ is underselling it. In Italy one of their core police forces literally are a branch of the military, with many of the same toys as armed forces.
I can’t say I’ve much knowledge about how the Carabinieri operate, but they do seem a pretty beloved institution, there were shitloads of the public out to mark the anniversary of their founding. They had a wee stall out at some big sailing regatta and folks were popping in to chat and get selfies. Fuckers even have private beaches! I managed to wander into such a place, my Italian rather lacking, but hey I wasn’t shot.
So, in lieu of further research that may completely go against my initial impressions and googling, it does seem possible to have a militarised and armed police force but avoid certain pitfalls. Provided the culture is right, which I don’t think it is in the US as regards policing.
I suppose one benefit of just having a branch of your police be military, is that it should in theory be harder to get into, and you should be more able to keep out people on a power trip, or have a sufficient standard of training and discipline to lower the chance of people losing their cool and applying excessive force.
Bit rambly, unlike me I know.
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EPT
