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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On June 10 2025 01:42 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 01:33 Sadist wrote:
Im not trying to find a reasonable middle im just pointing out that we should be specific in what our issues are with ICE and what they are doing. Enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil. What can be evil is how you go about doing it etc Laws can be evil, and enforcing evil laws is evil. Nowadays we view the protesters who civilly disobeyed laws enforcing slavery and racial segregation as heroes, and the people who wrote and enforced those laws as being villains. Deporting an 11-year-old girl with brain cancer to a place she'll surely die is evil, even if it's lawful. This country was founded upon a rebellion against taxes, quartering, etc. that were completely lawful to impose on a British colony. It's wildly hypocritical to live in a civilization with all sorts of benefits that were procured by heroic people breaking unjust laws in the past while simultaneously saying "it's the law, there's nothing we can do" in the present.
I didnt say laws couldnt be evil. I said enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil. Every country on earth does it. Its a huge part of actually being a country.
If you believe any immigration laws are by default evil I dont know what to tell you but theres no point in further discussion.
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There are exactly zero mainstream Democrats or liberals or progressives saying "any immigration laws are by default evil," so there's no point in even responding to that. It's a blatant strawman that adds nothing to the conversation.
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On June 10 2025 02:09 LightSpectra wrote:
There are exactly zero mainstream Democrats or liberals or progressives saying "any immigration laws are by default evil," so there's no point in even responding to that. It's a blatant strawman that adds nothing to the conversation.
You were the one that started this!
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The president suggesting one of his czars arrest Democrat politicians isn't a sign of a healthy democracy, is it?
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. President Donald Trump on Monday suggested that he would support an arrest of California Governor Gavin Newsom amid pro-immigration protests in the state, which prompted the president to deploy the National Guard.
On Saturday, Tom Homan, the administration's border czar, threatened to arrest anyone who obstructs immigration enforcement efforts in the state, including Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.
Newsom responded during an NBC News interview by challenging Homan to "just get it over with" and move ahead with the arrest.
Asked on Monday about Newsom daring Homan to arrest him, Trump said, "I would."
www.yahoo.com
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On June 10 2025 01:34 LightSpectra wrote:
Guy that resorts to whataboutisms, strawmen, Schrödinger reasoning every single post in lieu of reading sources people show him thinks a few fragments of out-of-context legal code is a killer reply to the Trump administration literally telling Congress and judges that they're not beholden to any law when it comes to anything even remotely related to foreign policy.
Nearest I can tell from the reference is you're talking about the administration's position that a court couldn't order the return of Garcia because courts can't order the executive branch to do certain foreign policy actions.
That claim is largely true. The same reason a court can't order the president to declare war on a country, a court can't really order a prisoner exchange, a trade deal, or getting a prisoner back. The thing about Garcia is that because he was in El Salvador's custody at the request and agreement with the US, there's an argument that he was in constructive custody of the US no matter where he was physically.
But the claim was not that the president doesn't have to follow any laws. It was that courts can't run foreign policy. If there wasn't any responsibility to the law he wouldn't have bothered fucking specifically going through the invocation of this and that law and title authority and naming them as using them.
Since LA hasn't seceded yet, ICE raids there aren't foreign policy. So the Garcia case isn't directly relevant.
Add any context you like. There's only one US Code. If you don't know how law works, which I would never suspect, basically whenever a law gets passed it gets squeezed into the code. So "US law" isn't the entire list of every bill that ever passed, it's the encyclopediafication of every part of every law that gets passed by subject and subsection. Basically the same information, but reorganized. Title 8 is the one about immigration. Another subsection of it is where it says people going through immigration proceedings can have a lawyer - but not at the expensive of the government. Really interesting.
Does that mean the law broke its own due process? Miranda rights right? I thought everyone gets a free lawyer if they can't afford one? Well, that applies to crimes. Illegal immigration isn't one. Do you want to make it one? Then there'd be public defenders abound. Or if the Supreme Court ruled something like the 6th amendment right to counsel also applies to people in civil administrative immigration proceedings.
If you look closer, you can find the sections that authorize when you can deport people without any trial or any hearing with an immigration judge. Legally. It's really cool. Want me to help you find them?
On June 10 2025 01:42 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 01:33 Sadist wrote:
Im not trying to find a reasonable middle im just pointing out that we should be specific in what our issues are with ICE and what they are doing. Enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil. What can be evil is how you go about doing it etc Laws can be evil, and enforcing evil laws is evil. Nowadays we view the protesters who civilly disobeyed laws enforcing slavery and racial segregation as heroes, and the people who wrote and enforced those laws as being villains. Deporting an 11-year-old girl with brain cancer to a place she'll surely die is evil, even if it's lawful. This country was founded upon a rebellion against taxes, quartering, etc. that were completely lawful to impose on a British colony. It's wildly hypocritical to live in a civilization with all sorts of benefits that were procured by heroic people breaking unjust laws in the past while simultaneously saying "it's the law, there's nothing we can do" in the present.
Paradoxically, laws can even be illegal, most easily backed up when the top court rules so. Less easily backed up by "That's UNLAWFUL!" immediately scrubbed by "Well, okay it's legal but out of context."
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On June 10 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:The president suggesting one of his czars arrest Democrat politicians isn't a sign of a healthy democracy, is it? Show nested quote +WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. President Donald Trump on Monday suggested that he would support an arrest of California Governor Gavin Newsom amid pro-immigration protests in the state, which prompted the president to deploy the National Guard.
On Saturday, Tom Homan, the administration's border czar, threatened to arrest anyone who obstructs immigration enforcement efforts in the state, including Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.
Newsom responded during an NBC News interview by challenging Homan to "just get it over with" and move ahead with the arrest.
Asked on Monday about Newsom daring Homan to arrest him, Trump said, "I would." www.yahoo.com
No, totally a normal thing.
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On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing.
Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well.
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On June 10 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:The president suggesting one of his czars arrest Democrat politicians isn't a sign of a healthy democracy, is it? Show nested quote +WASHINGTON (Reuters) -U.S. President Donald Trump on Monday suggested that he would support an arrest of California Governor Gavin Newsom amid pro-immigration protests in the state, which prompted the president to deploy the National Guard.
On Saturday, Tom Homan, the administration's border czar, threatened to arrest anyone who obstructs immigration enforcement efforts in the state, including Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass.
Newsom responded during an NBC News interview by challenging Homan to "just get it over with" and move ahead with the arrest.
Asked on Monday about Newsom daring Homan to arrest him, Trump said, "I would." www.yahoo.com
Is this something that goes past your red line where not supporting kamala was a mistake?
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On June 10 2025 02:12 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:09 LightSpectra wrote:
There are exactly zero mainstream Democrats or liberals or progressives saying "any immigration laws are by default evil," so there's no point in even responding to that. It's a blatant strawman that adds nothing to the conversation. You were the one that started this!
Where did I say "any immigration laws are by default evil"? I think it's ethical to deport people who are undocumented and have been found in a U.S. court to have committed a felony, OR are undocumented and there's an international warrant for their arrest. What I've been saying is grossly immoral is ICE operating as secret police and bypassing the courts.
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On June 10 2025 02:21 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:12 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 02:09 LightSpectra wrote:
There are exactly zero mainstream Democrats or liberals or progressives saying "any immigration laws are by default evil," so there's no point in even responding to that. It's a blatant strawman that adds nothing to the conversation. You were the one that started this! Where did I say "any immigration laws are by default evil"? I think it's ethical to deport people who are undocumented and have been found in a U.S. court to have committed a felony, OR are undocumented and there's an international warrant for their arrest. What I've been saying is grossly immoral is ICE operating as secret police and bypassing the courts.
Edit:
I explained that enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil but how you go about it can be. You chimed in saying laws can be evil and enforcing evil laws is evil. That seems like a straw man to me, or that you think our current immigration laws are evil. Id need you to be more specific about what parts you disagree with as I am not an expert.
So you dont think its OK to deport someone here illegally if they havent committed a crime? By all means prioritize criminals but ideally if you are not here legally and are caught you are deported or brought before some court or something to explain your extenuating circumstances.
I think thats fairly common in all countries. Obviously ICE/Trump admin not letting people speak to lawyers etc or simply revoking a visa/status because the Biden admin issued it is horrible.
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On June 10 2025 00:22 LightSpectra wrote:
oBlade seeming genuinely confused that people are skeptical about ICE's ability to tell if someone is undocumented just by looking at them on the street is top-tier comedy.
Speak a foreign language = deport them now, let god sort the good ones out.
Beat a cop to death= deathrow
Beat a cop to death - wearing a MAGA hat = get paid to do it legally.
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On June 10 2025 02:34 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:21 LightSpectra wrote:On June 10 2025 02:12 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 02:09 LightSpectra wrote:
There are exactly zero mainstream Democrats or liberals or progressives saying "any immigration laws are by default evil," so there's no point in even responding to that. It's a blatant strawman that adds nothing to the conversation. You were the one that started this! Where did I say "any immigration laws are by default evil"? I think it's ethical to deport people who are undocumented and have been found in a U.S. court to have committed a felony, OR are undocumented and there's an international warrant for their arrest. What I've been saying is grossly immoral is ICE operating as secret police and bypassing the courts. Edit: I explained that enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil but how you go about it can be. You chimed in saying laws can be evil and enforcing evil laws is evil. That seems like a straw man to me, or that you think our current immigration laws are evil. Id need you to be more specific about what parts you disagree with as I am not an expert. So you dont think its OK to deport someone here illegally if they havent committed a crime? By all means prioritize criminals but ideally if you are not here legally and are caught you are deported or brought before some court or something to explain your extenuating circumstances. I think thats fairly common in all countries. Obviously ICE/Trump admin not letting people speak to lawyers etc or simply revoking a visa/status because the Biden admin issued it is horrible.
No, I don't think unlawfully crossing the border or overstaying a visa is enough of a justification to put someone through the traumatizing situation of snatching them from their friends and family, devastating their community, and authorizing masked cops to violate people's human rights without a warrant. There is no moral justification for this. If you want to restrict immigration for purely economic reasons then you can start heavily fining and taxing companies caught utilizing undocumented labor; but conveniently most of those companies (which includes Mar-a-Lago!) are Republican donors and it's extremely rare for them to see any sort of penalty.
Let's be real, Republicans do not give a fuck about immigrants committing crimes or undercutting wages. ICE would be deporting a lot more white people and not """accidentally""" deporting U.S. citizens and people with valid green cards/visas with Latino backgrounds if that were the case.
I explained that enforcing immigration law is not inherently evil but how you go about it can be. You chimed in saying laws can be evil and enforcing evil laws is evil. That seems like a straw man to me, or that you think our current immigration laws are evil. Id need you to be more specific about what parts you disagree with as I am not an expert.
Current immigration laws and enforcement are evil, but that doesn't mean all immigration enforcement is inherently evil. France should've deported Roman Polanski for evading justice. The U.S. should not have deported an 11-year-old girl with brain cancer.
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United States42462 Posts
On June 10 2025 00:51 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 00:35 LightSpectra wrote:
While not quite as funny, oBlade thinking leftists supported ICE when Biden was president is also comedic.
Edit: especially since a few pages ago he was saying Biden and Mayorkas were not even enforcing immigration law. They have one advantage, they at least thought the border was more real than you do. Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 00:51 LightSpectra wrote:
Schrödinger's judicial system. Simultaneously it's too burdensome to find enough proof to get a warrant for raids, but ICE definitely has enough proof to arrest people on the street. Immigration officers write warrants for raids. This is absurd.
Wasn’t there a very high profile case recently when they did a raid, couldn’t find the target, but found another brown person, identified them as not the target, and shipped them off anyway?
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Northern Ireland24877 Posts
On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well.
It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite.
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United States42462 Posts
On June 10 2025 03:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well. It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite.
Blackjack is unusual here in that he doesn’t come here for any kind of politics, he uses the topic to unload his debilitating contrarianism so that he can go through life without picking a fight every time someone says “good morning” when the morning is okay at best.
Engaging him is a mistake because of the mistaken assumption that his own position is the one contrary to the one he is arguing against. It’s not, he doesn’t generally bring a position, and that makes the whole effort futile.
It’s important to his well-being so it’s best to just let him be.
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On June 10 2025 01:34 LightSpectra wrote:
Guy that resorts to whataboutisms, strawmen, Schrödinger reasoning every single post in lieu of reading sources people show him thinks a few fragments of out-of-context legal code is a killer reply to the Trump administration literally telling Congress and judges that they're not beholden to any law when it comes to anything even remotely related to foreign policy.
In other news, I just had a really good béchamel lasagna for lunch.
My fear is that you bought the lasagna from illegal immigrants, hence I now support a police state. Hand over the fork before I arrest your nephew for studying in America while protesting against genocide.
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For anyone wondering what happened that allowed the Nazis to come to power.
This.
This is what happened.
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On June 10 2025 03:55 Magic Powers wrote:
For anyone wondering what happened that allowed the Nazis to come to power.
This.
This is what happened.
Unironically they had ANTIFA destabilizing the state trying to go for a communist revolution like the soviets, and were funded/organized by them.
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On June 10 2025 03:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2025 02:20 BlackJack wrote:On June 10 2025 01:11 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 05 2025 01:26 LightSpectra wrote:On June 05 2025 01:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 04 2025 19:05 baal wrote:On June 04 2025 08:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Yeah, its another example of republicans being experts in culture war at this point. They are the Sparta of culture war. They essentially normalize each other while also making each other look more reasonable in comparison. They each get to use each other as a "fall guy" to shed their baggage for some % of people.
This situation has made me realize why so many people thought TV wrestling was real. I always find it funny when people assume hyper competence from obviously very flawed politicians. Republicans think left wing ideologues infiltrated academia 40 years ago to infect young minds into the rise of socialist, and democrats think right wingers are brain washing young men with Joe Rogans and Andrew Tates but these things just happen organically. They are not playing 4D Chess, they are playing checkers and badly, but out biased belief systems make us too invested and thus too blind to see how badly they are actually playing. Yeah I don't think it's 4d chess, it's just checkers ( thought this sounded familiar) Wrestling is real. It's not a video game. Owen Hart actually died and getting hit actually hurts. They are however performers playing roles. Politicians are similar in that this is all a performance to them but real people are really getting hurt and dying as a consequence. Musk, Rogan, and Trump/his successor are going to dominate the Overton Window and libs will try to find policy that lands somewhere between those three with Rogan (generally) being the "advocate" for human rights. I don't even think they are doing this consciously, I think to them it really does feel like conflict. But more like friends trying to beat each other in a frivolous game than some sort of major clash. I haven't seen any Musk, Trump, or Rogan talking points going mainstream among liberals. + Show Spoiler + The only person attempting to do that is Gavin Newsom and his popularity has been crashing as a result. It's subtle, but it's there. On June 10 2025 00:33 Sadist wrote:On June 10 2025 00:02 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated. I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt. Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported. On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one. You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities. By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population. Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem. I feel like we are talking past each other. I dont condone what it looks like ICE is doing. Im just pointing out that to an average american citizen, its going to be confusing why ICE apprehending someone at a court house is a big deal. IMO The big deal is no due process or the way they behave. Not the actual act of arresting someone who is illegal and deporting them after they get due process. Thinking ICE should exist is a right-wing position. Using phrases like "arresting someone who is illegal" is right wing. Im not right wing. Im not using words like undocumented immigrants or pretending like enforcing immigration law is right wing. Nice try, bud. You're not convincing us. You don't believe in open borders and you think enforcing immigration law is okay. You have failed the purity test. You are undeniably right-wing which by the way is also now synonymous with fascist, racist, misogynist and transphobic so enjoy those labels as well. It’s remarkable your capacity to interject in such a manner in a thread where people are largely saying the opposite.
You think people are saying the opposite? LightSpectra says illegal immigrants should be deported if they've committed a felony. That's what? Maybe 2% of illegal immigrants? A felony is a serious crime which maybe calls for a more serious punishment than "alright mister, you're going to have to leave now." You think GH is on board with deporting people that are living here illegally? Seriously?
Sadist has been in on TL longer than anyone in this thread and he's also been a left/center-left guy the entire time. Insisting he's pushing right-wing trash for his position that, paraphrasing, "Trump/ICE are going about this all wrong but if you're living in a country illegally you shouldn't expect to be allowed to stay" is absurd. This comes after someone accused GH of pushing right-wing propaganda that Kamala Harris is a "DEI-Hire" for his opinion that she's not a good politician/candidate.
In Gavin Newsom's latest podcast he talks about having close friends that now won't speak to him because of the crime of calling biological males in women's sports "an issue of fairness" and believing it's unfair to allow biological males compete against women. This is a guy that basically paved the way for gay marriage by ordering marriage licenses to be issues to same-sex couples in 2004 when it was still illegal in his state and around the country. He's what you might call an "ally" to the LGBT movement but now he's being called a transphobe for his radical position that women's spaces are for women.
Jon Stewart said he faced an immediate and intense backlash for the absurd position of believing the wuhan coronavirus pandemic originated in the wuhan lab that studies coronaviruses. Crazy, I know. Same for Bill Maher who often talks about getting accused of joining MAGA anytime he strays from modern leftist ideology despite the fact he has been a lifelong liberal with unchanged beliefs.
It's pushing people out of their party and it's losing elections. Joe Rogan used to be a pot-smoking Bernie Sanders supporter. Elon Musk was a relatively apolitical environmentalist. Now they are perhaps the two biggest people to help Trump get elected. The Republicans already had their civil war of sorts and unfortunately the crazy side won and Liz Cheney is no more. The rest of them have fallen in line behind Trump. The left needs to sort out their schism and hopefully this time the crazy side will lose but based on how the moderates kowtow to them I doubt it.
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EPT
