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On June 09 2025 20:24 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 20:18 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 19:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 19:36 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 18:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 15:12 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 14:52 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:45 Doublemint wrote:that's an interesting way to argue. deflecting and intentionally missing the point while accusing the other one of that. how are they legitimizing the ramped up ICE actions and fast tracked deportations? remind me again... it is the ALIEN ENEMIES ACT. and Biden was - so you say - unlawful... ergo anything goes for the orange maniac and his lackeys? the "capitol riot" was based on a LIE - a ridiculous amount of courts said so. Fox paid for it and they sacked Tucker as a response. the violence in LA is based on ICE actually doing not just legally questionable stuff to members of their community - but also intentionally escalating tensions. if you cannot tell the difference and follow this trail of thought we are finished here. it's like I am talking to a child for christ's sake. You keep bringing up the Alien Enemies Act for no reason at all, so far as I've read it had nothing to do with what ICE was doing in LA... Are you perhaps confused? What else do we call your continual references to it besides deflection or ignorance? You do know it is perfectly legal to apprehend and deport people in the country illegally under multiple other statutes? The AEA has been used in a relatively small number of cases overall. You aren't reading what I'm saying. I'm the one being consistent here. I said Jan 6=bad and LA riots right now=bad. What's disturbing but less and less surprising is no one else will say the same. The government and ICE have decided to completely ignore the rule of law. They created this situation. Do I think that burning cars and blocking roads is useful and good? No, not really. Trump has created a lawless environment and now complains that people are breaking the law. The LA riots are Trump's responsibility. Ok sleep soon but... how was the raid they were protesting "ignoring the rule of law"? ICE got a tip, got a warrant, and raided the place. What law was violated here exactly? I am sensing we are getting back to the sometimes downplayed but ever present left-wing view that there should be NO immigration enforcement at all. People in this thread are complaining about people being disappeared but that certainly doesn't seem to have happened here and none of the gutless Democrat politicians in charge seem to be making that accusation. Pinning what's happening on Trump is just dumb let's not go there. These protests come from the fear that ICE will behave in LA the way they have elsewhere. They are taking people off the streets, taking people from courthouses etc etc. and generally spitting in the face of the laws and regulations they are supposed to follow. All it took was rumours that ICE were going to show up and that was enough to get people out onto the streets. That should tell you everything you need to know about the climate that has been created by ICE. Trump wants to fast track things and have ICE behaving unlawfully so more people can be deported. If you don't think there are any consequences for doing that or that it will just be ignored that's not a smart way to analyze the situation. Bolded works both ways though. It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will. The problem is, at some point the death spiral needs to end. You can't have ICE going around doing whatever they feel like, and then people coming outon the streets to riot, then the national guard coming in and blasting them fools, and then more people coming out to riot because of the national guard and so on and so on. At some point the common sense thing to do is just take a breath and let everything fizzle out. "It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will." thats exactly what I mean. "Whatever they like" is somewhat of a exaggeration isnt it? I agree with you that it cannot continue (admittedly I would prefer for it to brew for few more months). I think however that you wont be a fan of the way it gets stopped, because government will come on top here and carrot is not the way they will do that. Yeah, fascists are well known for this.
It is really interesting how our resident rightwingers are suddenly totally in favor of the government forcefully subjugating dissidents at any cost.
Wasn't it "Don't tread on me!" before?
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Rules for thee, not for me.
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On June 09 2025 20:39 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 20:24 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 20:18 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 19:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 19:36 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 18:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 15:12 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 14:52 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:45 Doublemint wrote:that's an interesting way to argue. deflecting and intentionally missing the point while accusing the other one of that. how are they legitimizing the ramped up ICE actions and fast tracked deportations? remind me again... it is the ALIEN ENEMIES ACT. and Biden was - so you say - unlawful... ergo anything goes for the orange maniac and his lackeys? the "capitol riot" was based on a LIE - a ridiculous amount of courts said so. Fox paid for it and they sacked Tucker as a response. the violence in LA is based on ICE actually doing not just legally questionable stuff to members of their community - but also intentionally escalating tensions. if you cannot tell the difference and follow this trail of thought we are finished here. it's like I am talking to a child for christ's sake. You keep bringing up the Alien Enemies Act for no reason at all, so far as I've read it had nothing to do with what ICE was doing in LA... Are you perhaps confused? What else do we call your continual references to it besides deflection or ignorance? You do know it is perfectly legal to apprehend and deport people in the country illegally under multiple other statutes? The AEA has been used in a relatively small number of cases overall. You aren't reading what I'm saying. I'm the one being consistent here. I said Jan 6=bad and LA riots right now=bad. What's disturbing but less and less surprising is no one else will say the same. The government and ICE have decided to completely ignore the rule of law. They created this situation. Do I think that burning cars and blocking roads is useful and good? No, not really. Trump has created a lawless environment and now complains that people are breaking the law. The LA riots are Trump's responsibility. Ok sleep soon but... how was the raid they were protesting "ignoring the rule of law"? ICE got a tip, got a warrant, and raided the place. What law was violated here exactly? I am sensing we are getting back to the sometimes downplayed but ever present left-wing view that there should be NO immigration enforcement at all. People in this thread are complaining about people being disappeared but that certainly doesn't seem to have happened here and none of the gutless Democrat politicians in charge seem to be making that accusation. Pinning what's happening on Trump is just dumb let's not go there. These protests come from the fear that ICE will behave in LA the way they have elsewhere. They are taking people off the streets, taking people from courthouses etc etc. and generally spitting in the face of the laws and regulations they are supposed to follow. All it took was rumours that ICE were going to show up and that was enough to get people out onto the streets. That should tell you everything you need to know about the climate that has been created by ICE. Trump wants to fast track things and have ICE behaving unlawfully so more people can be deported. If you don't think there are any consequences for doing that or that it will just be ignored that's not a smart way to analyze the situation. Bolded works both ways though. It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will. The problem is, at some point the death spiral needs to end. You can't have ICE going around doing whatever they feel like, and then people coming outon the streets to riot, then the national guard coming in and blasting them fools, and then more people coming out to riot because of the national guard and so on and so on. At some point the common sense thing to do is just take a breath and let everything fizzle out. "It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will." thats exactly what I mean. "Whatever they like" is somewhat of a exaggeration isnt it? I agree with you that it cannot continue (admittedly I would prefer for it to brew for few more months). I think however that you wont be a fan of the way it gets stopped, because government will come on top here and carrot is not the way they will do that. Yeah, fascists are well known for this. It is really interesting how our resident rightwingers are suddenly totally in favor of the government forcefully subjugating dissidents at any cost. Wasn't it "Don't tread on me!" before?
I presume that for some reason you refer to me as rightwinger, so can you please indulge me and tell me where I expressed I am in favour of this?
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On June 09 2025 20:51 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 20:39 Simberto wrote:On June 09 2025 20:24 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 20:18 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 19:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 19:36 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 18:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 15:12 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 14:52 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
You keep bringing up the Alien Enemies Act for no reason at all, so far as I've read it had nothing to do with what ICE was doing in LA... Are you perhaps confused? What else do we call your continual references to it besides deflection or ignorance? You do know it is perfectly legal to apprehend and deport people in the country illegally under multiple other statutes? The AEA has been used in a relatively small number of cases overall.
You aren't reading what I'm saying. I'm the one being consistent here. I said Jan 6=bad and LA riots right now=bad.
What's disturbing but less and less surprising is no one else will say the same. The government and ICE have decided to completely ignore the rule of law. They created this situation. Do I think that burning cars and blocking roads is useful and good? No, not really. Trump has created a lawless environment and now complains that people are breaking the law. The LA riots are Trump's responsibility. Ok sleep soon but... how was the raid they were protesting "ignoring the rule of law"? ICE got a tip, got a warrant, and raided the place. What law was violated here exactly? I am sensing we are getting back to the sometimes downplayed but ever present left-wing view that there should be NO immigration enforcement at all. People in this thread are complaining about people being disappeared but that certainly doesn't seem to have happened here and none of the gutless Democrat politicians in charge seem to be making that accusation. Pinning what's happening on Trump is just dumb let's not go there. These protests come from the fear that ICE will behave in LA the way they have elsewhere. They are taking people off the streets, taking people from courthouses etc etc. and generally spitting in the face of the laws and regulations they are supposed to follow. All it took was rumours that ICE were going to show up and that was enough to get people out onto the streets. That should tell you everything you need to know about the climate that has been created by ICE. Trump wants to fast track things and have ICE behaving unlawfully so more people can be deported. If you don't think there are any consequences for doing that or that it will just be ignored that's not a smart way to analyze the situation. Bolded works both ways though. It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will. The problem is, at some point the death spiral needs to end. You can't have ICE going around doing whatever they feel like, and then people coming outon the streets to riot, then the national guard coming in and blasting them fools, and then more people coming out to riot because of the national guard and so on and so on. At some point the common sense thing to do is just take a breath and let everything fizzle out. "It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will." thats exactly what I mean. "Whatever they like" is somewhat of a exaggeration isnt it? I agree with you that it cannot continue (admittedly I would prefer for it to brew for few more months). I think however that you wont be a fan of the way it gets stopped, because government will come on top here and carrot is not the way they will do that. Yeah, fascists are well known for this. It is really interesting how our resident rightwingers are suddenly totally in favor of the government forcefully subjugating dissidents at any cost. Wasn't it "Don't tread on me!" before? I presume that for some reason you refer to me as rightwinger, so can you please indulge me and tell me where I expressed I am in favour of this?
Nah, i have zero interest in talking to you anymore.
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So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward.
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On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward.
Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect.
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On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect.
I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws?
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On June 09 2025 20:39 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 20:24 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 20:18 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 19:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 19:36 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 18:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 15:12 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 14:52 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:45 Doublemint wrote:that's an interesting way to argue. deflecting and intentionally missing the point while accusing the other one of that. how are they legitimizing the ramped up ICE actions and fast tracked deportations? remind me again... it is the ALIEN ENEMIES ACT. and Biden was - so you say - unlawful... ergo anything goes for the orange maniac and his lackeys? the "capitol riot" was based on a LIE - a ridiculous amount of courts said so. Fox paid for it and they sacked Tucker as a response. the violence in LA is based on ICE actually doing not just legally questionable stuff to members of their community - but also intentionally escalating tensions. if you cannot tell the difference and follow this trail of thought we are finished here. it's like I am talking to a child for christ's sake. You keep bringing up the Alien Enemies Act for no reason at all, so far as I've read it had nothing to do with what ICE was doing in LA... Are you perhaps confused? What else do we call your continual references to it besides deflection or ignorance? You do know it is perfectly legal to apprehend and deport people in the country illegally under multiple other statutes? The AEA has been used in a relatively small number of cases overall. You aren't reading what I'm saying. I'm the one being consistent here. I said Jan 6=bad and LA riots right now=bad. What's disturbing but less and less surprising is no one else will say the same. The government and ICE have decided to completely ignore the rule of law. They created this situation. Do I think that burning cars and blocking roads is useful and good? No, not really. Trump has created a lawless environment and now complains that people are breaking the law. The LA riots are Trump's responsibility. Ok sleep soon but... how was the raid they were protesting "ignoring the rule of law"? ICE got a tip, got a warrant, and raided the place. What law was violated here exactly? I am sensing we are getting back to the sometimes downplayed but ever present left-wing view that there should be NO immigration enforcement at all. People in this thread are complaining about people being disappeared but that certainly doesn't seem to have happened here and none of the gutless Democrat politicians in charge seem to be making that accusation. Pinning what's happening on Trump is just dumb let's not go there. These protests come from the fear that ICE will behave in LA the way they have elsewhere. They are taking people off the streets, taking people from courthouses etc etc. and generally spitting in the face of the laws and regulations they are supposed to follow. All it took was rumours that ICE were going to show up and that was enough to get people out onto the streets. That should tell you everything you need to know about the climate that has been created by ICE. Trump wants to fast track things and have ICE behaving unlawfully so more people can be deported. If you don't think there are any consequences for doing that or that it will just be ignored that's not a smart way to analyze the situation. Bolded works both ways though. It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will. The problem is, at some point the death spiral needs to end. You can't have ICE going around doing whatever they feel like, and then people coming outon the streets to riot, then the national guard coming in and blasting them fools, and then more people coming out to riot because of the national guard and so on and so on. At some point the common sense thing to do is just take a breath and let everything fizzle out. "It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will." thats exactly what I mean. "Whatever they like" is somewhat of a exaggeration isnt it? I agree with you that it cannot continue (admittedly I would prefer for it to brew for few more months). I think however that you wont be a fan of the way it gets stopped, because government will come on top here and carrot is not the way they will do that. Yeah, fascists are well known for this. It is really interesting how our resident rightwingers are suddenly totally in favor of the government forcefully subjugating dissidents at any cost. Wasn't it "Don't tread on me!" before?
Razyda is definitely a 'civil liberties' kinda guy, which makes his stance on this a bit bizarre to be honest.
Razyda, people might assume you are right wing because you are all about civil liberties when criticizing Biden, but you are on the opposite side when it comes to Trump.
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I feel like you guys are missing the point being made by the opposite side. It's not that cracking down on illegal immigration is okay. It's cracking down on illegal POC immigration that is bad. If you're only detaining someone with a certain complexion/skin tone/race/melanin count, then you get the preceding pages of discourse. If you argue that ALL illegal immigration is bad and therefore wish to see not only POC being raided, but ANY who overstay visas or enter illegally, you'd probably find common ground.
But we all know what is being insinuated here. That's all I have to say. Enjoy your head bashing.
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It's attacking POOR people. And Blaming POOR people for everything.
And 99% of the US population must realize, that even if you have 25 Million dollars in the bank, you are 25 million dollars away from being homeless and on the other side of the Riotshields, and 975 million dollars away from being a billionaire and casually dine with DJT to get your latest tax fraud pardoned.
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On June 09 2025 16:42 Jankisa wrote:
I'm on the left, I'm not from the USA and I would have no problem with any government dealing with people in the country illegally if it was done in the correct way as prescribed by the laws of the country in question.
However, what is and has been happening in the US is quite unique.
We have a country that has had, for many decades a very fast and loose approach to illegal immigration, there is a whole shadow economy (billions of taxes paid by these people) of millions upon millions of people who come to the US for work, there is not enough (deliberately) time for the courts to process them and there are huge waiting lists. These people came to the US with this in mind, they know this is how it works for decades and they came as low paid labor, low paid exactly because of their illegal status.
Now you have a "movement" based on racism, that should be very clear to everyone, like any other right wing movement it needs an enemy and "the illegals" have been a nice little scapegoat for Republicans for all of these decades. Now it's escalating and people who welcome these folks, people who have been friends and neighbors with them for, again, decades are resisting these people who tried doing everything right, brought money into the economy and in the case of California greatly contributed to it being one of the most prosperous and biggest economies in the world are being whisked away by masked federal agents, often without any due process.
That is why people are rightfully angry, there was a social contract for decades that everyone understood and it's changing, it's OK for it to change if the country voted for that, but the way that it's being done is fucked up and people are angry.
People who do violence, burn cars and riot are, as always, completely detrimental to this and fuck them, no violence and damage to property is justified when there are peaceful means of protest available.
People who pretend like poor Republicans did everything to curb illegal immigration and evil Biden did open borders are, as usual, completely full of shit.
Republicans voted down a law supported by the president and the opposition party because their god king said they should do so so he has a political talking point for elections, so every single right wing sympathizer here who's pretending like this is all a left side problem is, as usual, completely hypocritical and full of shit.
The biggest victims are, of course, the people who came to your country, went through the actual process and didn't complete it in time so they get picked up by these vile goons while attending the process, of course, the black holes of empathy that are defending ICE here don't give a fuck because their are either brainwashed, too cynical or just straight up racist.
I admit i find much if what you post absurdly histrionic but I would like to commend this post in particular, or at least the first few paragraphs, for it's honesty and for its condemnation of violence. The thing is, lots of people would agree with the thrust of your argument! At least wrt letting people stay. Until recently that was the majority polling position. Part of what Biden's border crisis and its effects did was change public opinion to be massively more in favor of internal enforcement. And make no mistake, from the very first week where Biden revoked Remain in Mexico, to the last year when he began using the CBP One app to "pre-parole" thousands of border crossers, Biden was implementing bad policy with disastrous consequences. In many cases these choices (such as the mass paroling) was using a statute in way it was never meant to be used. And of course the idea that it wasn't his fault is also belied by the fact that Trump returned to office and the crisis disappeared!
But that aside, many, though never all, were ok with the current arrangement. but the flood during the last four years was in itself a violation of that implicit agreement. And it's not just white racist Republicans, some of the areas that swung the hardest towards Trump were Latino immigrant communities, especially along the Texas border. So while I find much of what you wrote at least arguable I would say your analysis of people's motivations to be underdeveloped.
Edit:
On June 09 2025 19:36 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 14:52 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:45 Doublemint wrote:that's an interesting way to argue. deflecting and intentionally missing the point while accusing the other one of that. how are they legitimizing the ramped up ICE actions and fast tracked deportations? remind me again... it is the ALIEN ENEMIES ACT. and Biden was - so you say - unlawful... ergo anything goes for the orange maniac and his lackeys? the "capitol riot" was based on a LIE - a ridiculous amount of courts said so. Fox paid for it and they sacked Tucker as a response. the violence in LA is based on ICE actually doing not just legally questionable stuff to members of their community - but also intentionally escalating tensions. if you cannot tell the difference and follow this trail of thought we are finished here. it's like I am talking to a child for christ's sake. You keep bringing up the Alien Enemies Act for no reason at all, so far as I've read it had nothing to do with what ICE was doing in LA... Are you perhaps confused? What else do we call your continual references to it besides deflection or ignorance? You do know it is perfectly legal to apprehend and deport people in the country illegally under multiple other statutes? The AEA has been used in a relatively small number of cases overall. You aren't reading what I'm saying. I'm the one being consistent here. I said Jan 6=bad and LA riots right now=bad. What's disturbing but less and less surprising is no one else will say the same. This is another example of someone being a hypocrite, pretending to concede a point, but not really doing so. I’m pretty sure Introvert was fine with Trump’s pardon of those people, and it’s completely obvious that what’s happening in LA is not the same as storming the Capitol in an attempted coup. It’s obvious (and he knows it) but he manages to attempt to gaslight you into thinking that he genuinely acknowledges what happened on January 6th.
I was saying January 6 was bad the day it happened guy. And I don't support Trump's mass pardon although I understand how the political argument for it developed and was in it's own way aided by Trump's enemies.
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On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward.
This is how most countries I've been a foreigner in worked, the US has a bit of a special situation due to the way its jurisdictions are layered. The US is a union of states, not a country cut into nice fitting provinces.
You're thinking, day-to-day law enforcement who encounter people should be able to and should do something to get justice in motion when they have obvious probable cause. I agree that would be complete common sense.
What you are describing IS how certain states cooperate as regards cooperating with the federal branch.
But unfortunately despite federal supremacy, the federal government cannot force state and local governments to do obvious things that make sense like be on the same fucking team about the law. What that means is you can be a communist, get elected, make your jurisdiction a sanctuary jurisdiction, and vow your LEO will not assist in the enforcement of federal law. Meaning if they pull someone for speeding and they have an open warrant for an immigration crime, that officer can let them go no extenuating circumstances necessary.
But a more important thing to remember is most immigration offenses aren't dealt with at the criminal level. It's civil. ICE separately issues temporary detainers that jurisdictions can pay attention to or ignore. What that is is an administrative essentially request, when a local or state jurisdiction picks someone up, that is on ICE's radar, ICE says, we know who they are and we want to pick them up so don't let them go. Under current regulations they can be held for up to 48 hours this way until ICE picks them up or released. That particular system isn't from statute, but from regulations. It hasn't been extensively challenged in court, although it could be vulnerable, basically the idea is a 2 day hold doesn't seem unreasonable and since state/local don't have to go along with it anyway if they don't want - they could be overcrowded or overworked themselves or not have funding to detain people - it has stood so far.
States that cooperate have much better immigration situations (like Florida) and synergy between state and federal agencies. States and cities that are retarded as regards this issue are for example LA, California, hence this weekend. The federal government has to do everything themselves barring a new law or possibly amendment or something that would upend how different levels of government interact. Trump's idea is to use funding incentives and penalties to guide crazies to common sense. There don't seem to be many other options besides actually prosecuting people when they jump from the level of not cooperating to actually actively impeding and hindering.
Another direction to answer you is that obviously you can't get everyone by waiting for them to speed the same way you couldn't get all tax evaders by issuing a warrant for their arrest and waiting for their tail light to be out so you can do a traffic stop and get them. You have to independently enforce an independent issue even if there may be some overlap.
TL;DR 1. you can't force cooperation under current law, or possibly even under the constitution itself, and 2. you can't get everyone that way.
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It is a strange time to live when the leader of the country is saying escalatory messaging and actions. Usually you have some one calling for calm. Very strange and scary to watch. Even more Canadians are talking about canceling their vacations to the US many here (were very close to the border) talking about selling their cabins and condos.
This is also a huge win politically for Trump. Complete distraction from two HUGE disasters last week. No one is talking about Musk (and Musk will love this, so he will probably be back in the fold), No one is talking about how terrible his bill is.
Also, much of the middle of the US is onboard with deporting illegals. The way it is happening most would not like, but if there is a bunch of damage to infrastructure and so on, I think it helps the Republicans not the democrats.
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On June 09 2025 21:42 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 20:39 Simberto wrote:On June 09 2025 20:24 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 20:18 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 19:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 19:36 Razyda wrote:On June 09 2025 18:16 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 15:12 Introvert wrote:On June 09 2025 14:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 09 2025 14:52 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
You keep bringing up the Alien Enemies Act for no reason at all, so far as I've read it had nothing to do with what ICE was doing in LA... Are you perhaps confused? What else do we call your continual references to it besides deflection or ignorance? You do know it is perfectly legal to apprehend and deport people in the country illegally under multiple other statutes? The AEA has been used in a relatively small number of cases overall.
You aren't reading what I'm saying. I'm the one being consistent here. I said Jan 6=bad and LA riots right now=bad.
What's disturbing but less and less surprising is no one else will say the same. The government and ICE have decided to completely ignore the rule of law. They created this situation. Do I think that burning cars and blocking roads is useful and good? No, not really. Trump has created a lawless environment and now complains that people are breaking the law. The LA riots are Trump's responsibility. Ok sleep soon but... how was the raid they were protesting "ignoring the rule of law"? ICE got a tip, got a warrant, and raided the place. What law was violated here exactly? I am sensing we are getting back to the sometimes downplayed but ever present left-wing view that there should be NO immigration enforcement at all. People in this thread are complaining about people being disappeared but that certainly doesn't seem to have happened here and none of the gutless Democrat politicians in charge seem to be making that accusation. Pinning what's happening on Trump is just dumb let's not go there. These protests come from the fear that ICE will behave in LA the way they have elsewhere. They are taking people off the streets, taking people from courthouses etc etc. and generally spitting in the face of the laws and regulations they are supposed to follow. All it took was rumours that ICE were going to show up and that was enough to get people out onto the streets. That should tell you everything you need to know about the climate that has been created by ICE. Trump wants to fast track things and have ICE behaving unlawfully so more people can be deported. If you don't think there are any consequences for doing that or that it will just be ignored that's not a smart way to analyze the situation. Bolded works both ways though. It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will. The problem is, at some point the death spiral needs to end. You can't have ICE going around doing whatever they feel like, and then people coming outon the streets to riot, then the national guard coming in and blasting them fools, and then more people coming out to riot because of the national guard and so on and so on. At some point the common sense thing to do is just take a breath and let everything fizzle out. "It depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean breaking the law and rioting will have consequences too, then yeah, of course it will." thats exactly what I mean. "Whatever they like" is somewhat of a exaggeration isnt it? I agree with you that it cannot continue (admittedly I would prefer for it to brew for few more months). I think however that you wont be a fan of the way it gets stopped, because government will come on top here and carrot is not the way they will do that. Yeah, fascists are well known for this. It is really interesting how our resident rightwingers are suddenly totally in favor of the government forcefully subjugating dissidents at any cost. Wasn't it "Don't tread on me!" before? Razyda is definitely a 'civil liberties' kinda guy, which makes his stance on this a bit bizarre to be honest. Razyda, people might assume you are right wing because you are all about civil liberties when criticizing Biden, but you are on the opposite side when it comes to Trump.
I didnt make stance on this situation. I pointed out that consequences will go both ways, because no government will allow otherwise.
As for my stance on this: if people want to protest, counterprotest, shout, sing, or whatever, then even if they end up fighting with each other or police, I dont really care, all sides know what they signing up for. However if the same protesters decide to assault some random dude, or destroy random car, they belong in jail ( I mean actual perpetrators, not all protesters). I dont care what is alignment of protesters at this point.
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On June 09 2025 22:10 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 16:42 Jankisa wrote:
I'm on the left, I'm not from the USA and I would have no problem with any government dealing with people in the country illegally if it was done in the correct way as prescribed by the laws of the country in question.
However, what is and has been happening in the US is quite unique.
We have a country that has had, for many decades a very fast and loose approach to illegal immigration, there is a whole shadow economy (billions of taxes paid by these people) of millions upon millions of people who come to the US for work, there is not enough (deliberately) time for the courts to process them and there are huge waiting lists. These people came to the US with this in mind, they know this is how it works for decades and they came as low paid labor, low paid exactly because of their illegal status.
Now you have a "movement" based on racism, that should be very clear to everyone, like any other right wing movement it needs an enemy and "the illegals" have been a nice little scapegoat for Republicans for all of these decades. Now it's escalating and people who welcome these folks, people who have been friends and neighbors with them for, again, decades are resisting these people who tried doing everything right, brought money into the economy and in the case of California greatly contributed to it being one of the most prosperous and biggest economies in the world are being whisked away by masked federal agents, often without any due process.
That is why people are rightfully angry, there was a social contract for decades that everyone understood and it's changing, it's OK for it to change if the country voted for that, but the way that it's being done is fucked up and people are angry.
People who do violence, burn cars and riot are, as always, completely detrimental to this and fuck them, no violence and damage to property is justified when there are peaceful means of protest available.
People who pretend like poor Republicans did everything to curb illegal immigration and evil Biden did open borders are, as usual, completely full of shit.
Republicans voted down a law supported by the president and the opposition party because their god king said they should do so so he has a political talking point for elections, so every single right wing sympathizer here who's pretending like this is all a left side problem is, as usual, completely hypocritical and full of shit.
The biggest victims are, of course, the people who came to your country, went through the actual process and didn't complete it in time so they get picked up by these vile goons while attending the process, of course, the black holes of empathy that are defending ICE here don't give a fuck because their are either brainwashed, too cynical or just straight up racist. I admit i find much if what you post absurdly histrionic but I would like to commend this post in particular, or at least the first few paragraphs, for it's honesty and for its condemnation of violence. The thing is, lots of people would agree with the thrust of your argument! At least wrt letting people stay. Until recently that was the majority polling position. Part of what Biden's border crisis and its effects did was change public opinion to be massively more in favor of internal enforcement. And make no mistake, from the very first week where Biden revoked Remain in Mexico, to the last year when he began using the CBP One app to "pre-parole" thousands of border crossers, Biden was implementing bad policy with disastrous consequences. In many cases these choices (such as the mass paroling) was using a statute in way it was never meant to be used. And of course the idea that it wasn't his fault is also belied by the fact that Trump returned to office and the crisis disappeared! But that aside, many, though never all, were ok with the current arrangement. but the flood during the last four years was in itself a violation of that implicit agreement. And it's not just white racist Republicans, some of the areas that swung the hardest towards Trump were Latino immigrant communities, especially along the Texas border. So while I find much of what you wrote at least arguable I would say your analysis of people's motivations to be underdeveloped.
I would like to know, since you are obviously very much in the weeds on this conversation how does this all interact with the voting down of a bipartisan immigration bill in 2023?
I'm not an expert but from a cursory look at this article:
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-collapse-of-bipartisan-immigration-reform-a-guide-for-the-perplexed/
I can see that some of the things that you had a big issues with and mentioned such as the parole thing would be removed, it would, for all extents and purposes be the most strict immigration bill since Regan and it had full support of Democrats and Biden.
The person who torpedoed this bill was Trump. I also mentioned that in my initial comment but for some reason you skipped over it in order to attack Biden again.
I think everyone here would agree that Biden's immigration policy was an incredible own goal, but the fact is that someone who thinks and actually believes that "the flood" of immigration to the US is a crisis and one of the biggest problems for the country ever would not sabotage the bill that was created by both Republicans and Democrats in order to curb that.
For me, from outside looking in, deliberately stopping a bill that would prevent more people from getting in and then using cruel and highly questionable methods to "fix" this problem is incredibly problematic and fucked up.
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On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws?
They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed.
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On June 09 2025 21:55 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I feel like you guys are missing the point being made by the opposite side. It's not that cracking down on illegal immigration is okay. It's cracking down on illegal POC immigration that is bad. If you're only detaining someone with a certain complexion/skin tone/race/melanin count, then you get the preceding pages of discourse. If you argue that ALL illegal immigration is bad and therefore wish to see not only POC being raided, but ANY who overstay visas or enter illegally, you'd probably find common ground.
But we all know what is being insinuated here. That's all I have to say. Enjoy your head bashing.
Yep. The fact that Musk was bragging about violating his visa proves this point.
If someone breaks the law and when they show up to court, it's revealed they're an undocumented immigrant, then yeah it's fair play to deport them. Trumpers want you to think this is the thing the world has an objection to, and not the fact that ICE is going around with no identification, no warrant, abducting people based on their skin color, shipping them to a foreign country with no due process even if they can prove they're here legally (or are even U.S. citizens), lying to courts in the process, and telling the Senate that they don't have to follow any laws whatsoever because the president is king as soon as the border is involved.
Trump admin backs ‘shocking proposition’ that feds can ‘snatch residents’ off street, ‘deposit them in foreign prisons’ with impunity, filing says
This is not a 'law and order' party trying to get a broken immigration system under control, it's a lawless dictator saying he can remove people from the judicial process with zero oversight or objection.
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Northern Ireland24871 Posts
On June 09 2025 22:27 Billyboy wrote:
It is a strange time to live when the leader of the country is saying escalatory messaging and actions. Usually you have some one calling for calm. Very strange and scary to watch. Even more Canadians are talking about canceling their vacations to the US many here (were very close to the border) talking about selling their cabins and condos.
This is also a huge win politically for Trump. Complete distraction from two HUGE disasters last week. No one is talking about Musk (and Musk will love this, so he will probably be back in the fold), No one is talking about how terrible his bill is.
Also, much of the middle of the US is onboard with deporting illegals. The way it is happening most would not like, but if there is a bunch of damage to infrastructure and so on, I think it helps the Republicans not the democrats.
I’m actually unsure on this one
I think there’s a world where Trump benefits, I think there’s a world it harms him, I just don’t know which one we’re in.
Riots do draw attention to the issues that spark them. But they can also turn those away who’d otherwise be sympathetic.
Here you’ve two groups who might shift a bit. Those in favour of a clampdown on illegal immigration, but who might be unaware on how it’s being done, and may oppose the latter if it’s exposed more to them, and the overall issue is quite hard to avoid right now due to these riots. And the group who might otherwise oppose this stuff, but the second there’s violence will gravitate back to law and order stuff.
So I feel a lot rests on which of those rough groups is bigger, or which sees more movement within it, or a combo of the the two.
In a wider sense, I’m not sure if distractions even particularly help Trump all that much. A distraction in a country where any one of almost innumerable fuckups that this admin makes would do huge damage if the news cycle stayed focused on them, absolutely.
In a hypothetical Britain where say, we had the DOGE fiasco, or our Secretary of State for Defence was dishing out info to journalists and family members, and then the Southport Riots overshadowed it, I could see that timing being fortunate for the government.
With the Trump administration there’s seemingly something every week, and to me seemingly very few people who haven’t made their mind up that he’s a bit shit, or a good thing, years ago.
In the same sense you’d be a bit shocked if you walked in to your generally clean-living, drinks a few beers pal and they’re shooting up heroin, but you wouldn’t be if your pal had been struggling with being a heroin addict for a decade.
It’s difficult to see what would move the needle (pun intended) in either direction.
I’ve encountered many different political animals in my time, I have to say I don’t think I’ve run into many who are somewhat on the fence with Trump in recent years. In 2016, absolutely I did.
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On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed.
If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated.
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On June 09 2025 23:45 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2025 23:26 Magic Powers wrote:On June 09 2025 21:42 Sadist wrote:On June 09 2025 21:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 09 2025 21:16 Sadist wrote:
So I am curious what the rationale for not treating illegal immigrants the same way you would if someone had a warrant for their arrest. What i mean by this is if you have a warrant and you get pulled over, arrested for something else, etc per my understanding you would be arrested for said warrant.
I can understand the thought process that if you check someones immigration status when they report a crime, are pulled over, are arrested for something else, etc that you could discourage people from interacting with police or reporting crimes. However, if thats the case how would immigration actually enforce immigration laws on illegal immigrants?
Seperately, its pretty clear ICE are escalating things unnecessarily. Plain clothes agents, grabbing people aggressively, face masks, etc. My concern is the well is poisoned on both sides of the immigration issue and we are never going to move forward. Unfortunately, Trump and other Republican leaders treat illegal immigrants as sub-human and worthless, so it's unsurprising when illegal immigrants aren't afforded rights or respect. I guess what im saying is if an illegal immigrant is arrested for a crime and goes infront of a judge, even if the charges are dropped why would they not be held for being an illegal immigrant? Thats how my understanding of a warrant would work. Again i get the downsides of doing this (illegal immigrants would avoid police and not come forward as witnesses etc) but in practical terms how would we enforce immigration laws? They're not being brought to court for alleged crimes. They're brought to court for being immigrants, then the courts dismiss the claims, then they get arrested in spite of their case being dismissed. If they are legal immigrants obviously they should be left alone but if they are illegal immigrants IMO they should be detained even if the charges are dropped from an unrelated case. It should be done with some common decency like not roughing up people, talking to them like human beings, wearing uniforms without face coverings, etc. I would fully expect if I as an American was an illegal immigrant in another country I would get the boot if I was caught or charged with something unrelated.
I disagree very strongly. There's a reason why cases get dismissed on the basis of police misconduct. This is meant to prevent abuse of authority. If protocol isn't being followed, the suspect can often simply go free, regardless of any proof of guilt.
Same situation here. If ICE gets the desired result of deporting illegal immigrants by unlawfully snatching suspects of the streets, then not only is that in and of itself an illegal activity committed by ICE, but it also creates a situation where suspects are at a severe disadvantage due to not having sufficient legal representation (as mentioned in an earlier post of mine). If you allow one criminal activity, you allow two, and so forth. It results in perfectly legal immigrants being arrested and some of them even deported.
On top of that it also creates an extremely hostile climate which leads to more violent protests, which leads to more violent enforcement, which is an escalation that helps absolutely no one.
You cannot ever reward illegal behavior by the executive branch. If you do that, you create a police state, regardless of how many illegal migrants get deported at the end of it. This is completely unlawful, immoral and extremely damaging to the communities.
By the way, it is estimated that illegal immigrants make up roughly 3% of the American population.
Anyone arguing that these people are a problem is the real problem.
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