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On July 05 2026 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
I coached the women's handball team when I was in the UK, in both teams I played for. Not expecting an attaboy or anything, I think most of us try to make our environment a little bit better and more inclusive.
I'm still wondering if that's not the right approach, then what is?
Attaboy!
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Northern Ireland27110 Posts
On July 05 2026 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
I coached the women's handball team when I was in the UK, in both teams I played for. Not expecting an attaboy or anything, I think most of us try to make our environment a little bit better and more inclusive.
I'm still wondering if that's not the right approach, then what is?
Attalad!
Although you are one of history’s greatest monsters from taking coaching duties off a qualified women obviously. /s
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On July 05 2026 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
I coached the women's handball team when I was in the UK, in both teams I played for. Not expecting an attaboy or anything, I think most of us try to make our environment a little bit better and more inclusive.
I'm still wondering if that's not the right approach, then what is?
You needed to start a violent revolution that kills all capitalists and brings utopian communism to the world. Anything short of that is simply lesser evilism and makes you complicit in genocides that GH recognizes.
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Northern Ireland27110 Posts
On July 05 2026 00:45 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2026 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
I coached the women's handball team when I was in the UK, in both teams I played for. Not expecting an attaboy or anything, I think most of us try to make our environment a little bit better and more inclusive.
I'm still wondering if that's not the right approach, then what is? You needed to start a violent revolution that kills all capitalists and brings utopian communism to the world. Anything short of that is simply lesser evilism and makes you complicit in genocides that GH recognizes.
Facetiousness aside I’m down for a bit of socialism personally.
One thing I’m less sure about is like, ok we’ve got some hypothetical more egalitarian economic framework. But would that be a bulwark against sexism and or racism in other domains? I’m less sure on that.
As Drone alluded to earlier, perhaps men and women will simply have different interests. And it’s hard to disentangle what are socialised and what may potentially be innate characteristics
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On July 04 2026 23:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 23:30 Artesimo wrote:On July 04 2026 22:16 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 21:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 21:07 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 09:39 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response. Right then, I’ve seen the light. We’ll just stop bothering and everything will sort itself out, seems much more sensible. Not sure why I didn’t think of that before This is the textbook tantrum that typically follows. + Show Spoiler +Is sarcasm a tantrum? I have thrown my fair share over the years, this doesn’t feel one.
I merely felt you were responding to things I didn’t really say. If I had, it would have been an appropriate response.
There’s a difference between acknowledging one’s limitations and actively still trying in this domain, versus not moderating one’s behaviour and going with the ‘I’m a nice guy’ spiel.
I was deficient in certain manners, part personal growth, part hearing the experiences of others caused me to adjust my behaviour. I find many of my vintage have, and have worked to make various spaces more inclusive.
Hell look at TL way back when, even though it wasn’t always with ill intent, hell of a lot more homophobic language, and it’s changed quite a bit as an environment.
I frequently discipline Minibat for general saltiness and gamer rage, which feels a bit rich as I was awful for it as a teen. But one thing I notice and never had to directly tell him is there’s no casual homophobic/racist/sexist language from him. Not just him but his mates too. Perhaps they’re outliers but I find it less prevalent in voice from people who are obviously young teens/tweens than older people, and less than when I was a teen playing myself.
So I think there’s a positive and a negative here. The negative part is online gaming is still frequently a toxic cesspool, which will put many people off. The positive is that it’s at least a less discriminatorily toxic cesspool, although far from ideal.
We’re only a generation or two into kids playing online whose parents also played online, which I think is part of why we’re seeing some positive movement. Provided said parents aren’t themselves arseholes, they know what that environment is like first-hand and can direct their children to better behaviour. Which all adds up on aggregate. At a localised level, one can cultivate as welcoming an environment as they want, if said groups don’t even show up there’s not much one can do. + Show Spoiler +If the bigger pipeline that feeds into local scenes is broken, and is much larger, it’s hard for an individual or a small group to fix that aspect of things.
We’ve invited anyone any of us encounters from Ireland who plays or expresses any kind of interest in StarCraft to our Facebook, subsequently Discord, and we’re up to a good number of hundreds there, including a fair few UK mainlanders and international folks. There’s simply very few women, for whatever reason. I can't speak to your specific environment, but this sort of "look at all I've done, what more do you want/what are you doing!?" type of responses are basically a textbook example of the same thing oppressed people always deal with when they confront white men and their lackeys/useful idiots in the US about this kind of stuff. Along with blaming us for not broaching it in way that doesn't offend them, making us the "real reason" the oppressors keep oppressing (or "the enemy"). It's tone policing and victim blaming 101. While I obviously come at this from a socialist perspective, this is rather common feminist and progressive framing generally at this point. You’re mistaking disagreement with your approach for offence. If one is going to come out swinging so to speak, they better have either walked the walk, or have some actionable suggestions and different potential approaches to address the problem being discussed. To wit, you have neither here thus far. Which I find surprising as it’s very unlike ye The whole purpose of my observations, and I assume Art’s as well was to illustrate that one can improve things on a micro level, but that there are limitations to what can be accomplished if there are problems at the macro. If, to take an arbitrary number, 60% of women who touch competitive SC or CS online drop it because toxicity, there will be naturally fewer to even consider playing in LANs or joining leagues. Even if those specific environments are great, if nobody’s coming in the door well, it’s immaterial. I personally think women get it worse than any other group (intersectionality aside) because they both get abuse, but also have the opposite where people fawn over them. Some resent both ends of that particular spectrum, in both scenarios they’re not just another player. I mean, I get it, you’re preaching to the converted there, but at least with online matchmaking those wheels turn very slowly. Local groups, Discords, TL etc can actively cultivate better environments, in a way that’s just not feasible with a popular online game with thousands of matches going on at any time of the day. I mean it makes perfect sense that he hasn't done anything, or has no real insight here. "You have used the wrong magic word, therefore all your deeds shall be worthless. not good enough, not good enough, craw craw craw!". Doing nothing but berating everyone else for not doing enough is the only way to win with the mindset of his like. Anyone who is genuinely interested in making things better / who isn't incredibly stupid would see someone marching in the right direction, but maybe a bit off the path, or just generally in the right direction but not quite, and be like "hey, nicely done so far! You made some good progress, but may I suggest going a little over to the left here? If you keep going that way there is gonna be a patch along the way where we are trying to sow out some flowers and you might trample some of them by accident." Instead this little troll sits somewhere in a distance with a megaphone, shouting at you being stupid for walking where you walk. You have to press him for any reason why he objects to your path, and when you ask him if he can tell you about any nice places along the way he will tell you that he hasn't made any of the journey yet because the path is currently maintained by a company owned by a friend of the 2nd great cousin of the chairman of the democratic party and walking it thus would make him complicit in genocide, much like you are right now as you already stepped on the part. Right after that he will bemoan that nobody is willing to extend the hand to his side, which ofc the blame is exclusively with the other side. They are just not good enough, it’s so tragic. Tell us how you really feel haha. Again I’m not Mr Egalitarian Activist, I’ve merely run/helped run a StarCraft group and done annual tournaments for 15 years (and some extra runs), and one year managed an area at Ireland’s biggest nerd convention. These aren’t me flexing at all, they’re just my experiences in these particular domains. Including some degree of learning and evolution from effectively a ‘shock jock’ as a caster to something more convivial. Perhaps not absolutely directly, but you basically do what GH says you should do, and then get criticised for not doing something else that he can’t even codify. Fine, that’s helpful. It’s worth bearing in mind that Northern Ireland is very, very bloody white. Nonetheless we’ve plenty of group stalwarts who’ve competed every year across a wide range of ethnicities. Gay players including a multiple times champion. A player with pretty debilitating autism who we cut some slack on timekeeping to the detriment of our schedule, also a multiple times champion. Just no women. We had one interested one year but she was too much of a newbie to want to compete but my co-caster coached her in our downtime. I mean we’ve had plenty of women pop in to watch proceedings but not to play. StarCraft2 even when it was big was relatively niche compared to some games like LoL and CS, or Overwatch at its peak or DoTA or Fortnite etc. it’s less so now, so the chances of some lass we don’t know about taking it up and being in shape for next June feel quite slim, but it would be cool! From your experiences in a considerably ‘bigger’ game and actively working with women players, what kind of feedback are you getting in terms of their experiences and hurdles, if indeed you discuss that much? I could make an educated guess I suppose, but I don’t really have anyone to directly ask such things.
I should have clarified, I am out of the coaching game since ~2023 due to the amount of time, to an extend money, and most importantly the frustration of whenever I got a really solid team together it wouldn't take too long before it gets reset to 0 by players being poached by other orgs. I always was genuinely happy for the players that got picked up by larger orgs since it was always a case of them being able to take a next step onto a level that the environment I was operating in simply could not provide. But the women scene is so much smaller, so finding and building talent takes much more work and having 2 or 3 players move up to a better org would often lead to a complete disband of the team, so a lot of times it was a complete reset to 0 for "my work". And most of my work in terms of making the overall scene better/more accepting for women was the 1.6 days since that is where most of my competitive background comes from, where I had the best connections, and frankly the most passion. A lot has improved since the 1.6 days, and many of my anecdotes would no longer be relevant, though I still have some insight from the cs go era, as well as some of my former players who still occacionally contact me for advice or help.
Anyhow, in cs one of the biggest hurdles for the most part are what you probably already expect. There is sexism/sexist remarks which might not even be more than just "hurl whatever vile shit you can come up with at the opponent", and in a vacuum are not more than calling someone a shitter or something like that. But they cut deeper because they mirror doubts these players sometimes have themselves unconsciously, or have experienced a lot even from their friendly surroundings. They have this hobby that is very different from any of their friends hobbies (though this is something that has changed drastically by comparison to the old old days), and that leads to some doubts / feeling of otherness as well as a lack of people they can talk to about this thing that is of significance to them. Or its remarks from the family that might be generally supportive, but also highlight how unusual it is for a girl to have that kind of hobby, which once again feels like they are at odds with the expectation that others have of them, even though these remarks are not really phrased negatively. A really big desire is just simple acceptance, not being put up as something special, they just want to be part of the pack so they can do their thing. Your statement of women having it the worst because they face a lot of abuse, but also unwanted fawning over them very much is on point and relevant here I believe.
The moment this truly clicked for me was when I had 2 teams at a small local lan tournament (1 womens team that I coached, another mens team that I only part time coached to help a friend who couldn't be available all the time). The womens team won the whole thing and shortly after we get backstage and after getting done with the whole coach speech thing for both teams I find myself having one of the players from the womens team in my arm sobbing and having a full emotional breakdown because of pretty much everything above. Family/friends overall supportive, but also always making her aware that it is seen as an unusual hobby. She told me that she had always felt like a foreign object within the scene, that first the team was the first time she had a fixed circle of people where she didn't feel out of place with her hobby, but also that she had always thought they were sort of a pet project for me. In these lower leagues you often don't have any gender segregation with the teams, so when we faced a mens team ofc I would often play that up and use breaking expectations/stereotypes as motivation for my players. But in her that only had reinforced her feelings of otherness, and also gave her the impression that I wasn't as accepting of them either. It took her to see me working with a men's team and seeing that I treat them pretty much the same as them to loosen that emotional knot. Which led to her feeling not alien within the hobby for the first time, prompting her emotional outburst (though the adrenaline from just having won the tournament probably boosted the intensity a bit). And after that I stopped doing that stuff to hype my players up outside of individual sessions with players where I was sure it would only hit the right mark. And after having been made more sensitive towards the issue, and correcting my behaviour for it, I often got positive feedback on it.
I also listened to a guest lecture at my uni some years after that situation, and it had a similar message in regards to how women/men going against stereotypes ends up being portrayed at. The framing for women tends to have a sting of "despite being a women", which discredits the normalisation, where for men the "ofc a men can do this just as well" is highlighted in a strange way that has a similar effect. Both can have the counterproductive effect of drawing attention to the unusualness of it, when what you wanted is highlight that it shouldn't be unusual, but for women there is also that kick. Ofc its nice to acknowledge what a women had to overcome to achieve what she did, esp if you want to motivate other women who feel held back by these barriers. But it is not the right message when you want them to truly feel part of it.
So after we are done with the obvious stuff, like full blown sexism, and lack of acceptance, modulating highlighting women in gaming to where it becomes highlighting their achievement rather than their achievement as a women would be the next big step, and its one that I see as much more realistic as fixing the casual "oh you play video games as a girl? that is cool" response from family/friends.
One big struggle here is that atm. we still need segregated teams for the most part I think. At least in the games that I am familiar with, the women's scene is just too small to compete with the men. I don't even believe that men are much more competitive, sure they might be more into beating someone in a video game, but that does not make a competitor to me. To me, being competitive means you want to improve, being better than someone else is your benchmark/marker of progress. Being competitive means you are willing to put in the unfun work because you enjoy being good at the fun thing, and from my admittedly limited experience, that drive is not less prevalent in the women's scene. But the more raw talent you have, the less of the unfun work your have to put in (like people who scrim a lot, which is an important trainings tool, but far from the most important one. But if you are a beast in terms of raw skill and talent, then you might get by with just that a lot). And the mens scene is just so much larger, that you find a lot more naturally gifted or "accidentally" good players there. And the players that have talent and are willing to put in the tedious work are even rarer, which ofc with a larger scene you also got more of.
This wouldn't be as big of a problem if mixed teams where more of an option, but they just aren't. Once again, very limited experience on my part, I only tried it once, but it was awful. Mixed teams are just a hassle because now all the problems that I had to deal with from the outside (harassment from the community, sexism, my players not being taken as seriously from organisers, opponents egos having a hard time coping with losing to a women) are now internal as well, where surprisingly I have fewer good options to deal with them. Say your team is playing at level X, its way easier to find a man who can play at that level and is available than a women due to the different in scene sizes. So if I go for a women for that spot, I now have to justify all that effort to fill that spot, and the cost it incurs. Male players on the team often do not cope well with it when the women outperform them, now the shit that I usually had to deal with externally (like a opponent first accusing a player of mine of cheating, then spreading rumours that the only reason she isn't getting banned is because all the admins get her nudes) are now internally, a player insinuating the only reason they got moved to the B roster in favour of a women was because of sexual favours. Like what do I do with that? You can't really defuse that conflict and tension, once it pops up it just lingers and eventually eats the team from the inside. Or you have to move the player off the team, now you gotta find a replacement, hope that person is fine if the women on the team end up having a string of better performances than them... Or when we lose, the criticism that then goes around often seemed harsher and less fair when coming from the men and aimed at the women. And ofc there are also some oddities from the womens side. And that all is with small leagues, we are talking a few hundred bucks tournaments, imagine how ugly it gets once real money is on the line and also being spend on these players.
Mixed teams would be the best to have acceptance of women, without making them out to be these mystical unicorns, but it just seems such a hassle that I don't see any larger org pursuing it seriously in the foreseeable future.
Anyhow, lots of rambling, hope its somewhat cohesive. I am also happy to see that you and others have made similar endeavours in other games/sports, it genuinely raises my spirit. I also have to admit, while I think diversity of genders is universally a good thing, and generally found it much more comfortable and beneficial when a group isn't massively dominated by one gender, its not like I ever set out with the grand goal of making the cs community better for women. I got into coaching them because I got a soft spot for underdogs and generally parties that I feel are unfairly treated. While I did have some positive effect in general, the motivation for it always came from a personalised level. Someone I coached / generally knew within the scene was uncomfortable with X / the victim of Y, so I went to deal with it if that is what they wanted. And when I deal with something I like to do the job proper and in a way where I don't have to come back to fix the same thing over and over. At the same time I only ever made something a problem if my player wanted me to. That was usually the case, but there were also situations that I led slide because the affected person did not want to make a fuzz about it in any way. So I fought for my players, who happened to be women, not women in general. It just happened to benefit women in general, which I am quite happy with, but can't claim that it was the goal I set out with right away. It took me a bit to expand my view from "I want to help this person I am dealing with" to "I want to help these people I am dealing with", to finally "I want to help these people, even if I am not dealing with them".
And as a last kick towards GreenHorizons: Notice how I made an effort to use men/women instead of male/female? It is what I took from the response of DarkPlasmaBall and Uldridge as something where I could maybe improve. Ofc you get absolutely 0 credit for that since you failed to articulate or explain it in any way, but thankfully we have some posters who seem genuinely interested in the topic and in possession of a digital lapis philosophorum to turn the load of horseshit you dropped into a small nugget of gold, and thus their responses made a small positive difference.
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On July 05 2026 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
I coached the women's handball team when I was in the UK, in both teams I played for. Not expecting an attaboy or anything, I think most of us try to make our environment a little bit better and more inclusive.
I'm still wondering if that's not the right approach, then what is?
You guys understand that what makes your guys' reflexive "I'm a nice guy" and "not all men" responses problematic (and the shitposting amplifying it) isn't the good deeds you've done outside of the context of this immediate discussion?
That these CS leagues/players are referenced to as "female" is emblematic of what I'm talking about (particularly the obliviousness). I get the impression that Artesimo is sincere. I appreciate them improving their behavior/understanding and for others stepping up so I didn't have to be the person to hand-hold educate something others already know, which is again a known problematic issue among progressives/feminist efforts that DPB could expand on (that's the kind of stuff that allies are supposed to do for those asking), but it's not just an Artesimo problem
https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/Female_Tournaments
Part of what I was talking about in my original post is how sooo many of the "little things" like that and plenty of more overtly problematic things just don't even register to you all as discouraging the people you would otherwise believe you're "trying your best" to appeal to/provide safe spaces for and believe it is other things outside of your control why there are so few women that feel comfortable posting on TL (where there's plenty of space for things outside of being top tier competitive Starcraft players).
So who is forcing liquipedia to call them "Female Tournaments"?
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GH: " "female" is a problematic way to refer to women's leagues in order to ignore the systemic critique to focus on the personal"
WombaT / Uldridge / EnDeR_ : How so? Please explain why.
GH: "I didn't have to be the person to hand-hold educate ... overtly problematic things just don't even register to you all"
You brought up the topic. You called out the community. You made the assertion. People asked you to clarify. You should share your insights so that people can be aware of what you're talking about, which might lead to changing specific language or approaches so that they may be more effective.
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Just like I said "you used the wrong magic word".
Its quite ironic, you take offence with how it is said, not what is being said - the exact same reason why I consider you an enemy and not an ally. You only push people away, and make it extremely difficult to bring people to what is supposedly your side. You knowingly chose the path that makes it least likely to get people to agree with you, makes them double down on what you take offence with as a defensive reaction.
You are an enemy of every cause you champion if you behave like that, because if you were gone, your cause would have greater chances at success.
And I could take these high and mighty preachings from someone who actually did the walk, but we are still short on any deeds by you that has improved anything. Instead I get it from someone who very much reminds me of real people that I encountered on my struggles, and that claimed to be on the same side, but who's behaviour led to my improvements being undone or not come to fruition, under the same self centred disguise of "not good enough".
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On July 05 2026 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2026 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
I coached the women's handball team when I was in the UK, in both teams I played for. Not expecting an attaboy or anything, I think most of us try to make our environment a little bit better and more inclusive.
I'm still wondering if that's not the right approach, then what is? You guys understand that what makes your guys' reflexive "I'm a nice guy" and "not all men" responses problematic (and the shitposting amplifying it) isn't the good deeds you've done outside of the context of this immediate discussion? That these CS leagues/players are referenced to as "female" is emblematic of what I'm talking about (particularly the obliviousness). I get the impression that Artesimo is sincere. I appreciate them improving their behavior/understanding and for others stepping up so I didn't have to be the person to hand-hold educate something others already know, which is again a known problematic issue among progressives/feminist efforts that DPB could expand on (that's the kind of stuff that allies are supposed to do for those asking), but it's not just an Artesimo problem https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/Female_TournamentsPart of what I was talking about in my original post is how sooo many of the "little things" like that and plenty of more overtly problematic things just don't even register to you all as discouraging the people you would otherwise believe you're "trying your best" to appeal to/provide safe spaces for and believe it is other things outside of your control why there are so few women that feel comfortable posting on TL (where there's plenty of space for things outside of being top tier competitive Starcraft players). So who is forcing liquipedia to call them "Female Tournaments"?
... This makes less sense to me than most of oBlade's posts. Don't know what I was expecting.
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On July 05 2026 02:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2026 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 05 2026 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
I coached the women's handball team when I was in the UK, in both teams I played for. Not expecting an attaboy or anything, I think most of us try to make our environment a little bit better and more inclusive.
I'm still wondering if that's not the right approach, then what is? You guys understand that what makes your guys' reflexive "I'm a nice guy" and "not all men" responses problematic (and the shitposting amplifying it) isn't the good deeds you've done outside of the context of this immediate discussion? That these CS leagues/players are referenced to as "female" is emblematic of what I'm talking about (particularly the obliviousness). I get the impression that Artesimo is sincere. I appreciate them improving their behavior/understanding and for others stepping up so I didn't have to be the person to hand-hold educate something others already know, which is again a known problematic issue among progressives/feminist efforts that DPB could expand on (that's the kind of stuff that allies are supposed to do for those asking), but it's not just an Artesimo problem https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/Female_TournamentsPart of what I was talking about in my original post is how sooo many of the "little things" like that and plenty of more overtly problematic things just don't even register to you all as discouraging the people you would otherwise believe you're "trying your best" to appeal to/provide safe spaces for and believe it is other things outside of your control why there are so few women that feel comfortable posting on TL (where there's plenty of space for things outside of being top tier competitive Starcraft players). So who is forcing liquipedia to call them "Female Tournaments"? GH: " "female" is a problematic way to refer to women's leagues in order to ignore the systemic critique to focus on the personal" [DPB: I think that's a valid criticism and you're right that the identifiers used in labeling leagues can be problematic] + Show Spoiler +WombaT / Uldridge / EnDeR_ : How so? Please explain why.
GH: "I didn't have to be the person to hand-hold educate ... overtly problematic things just don't even register to you all"
You brought up the topic. You called out the community. You made the assertion. People asked you to clarify. You should share your insights so that people can be aware of what you're talking about, which might lead to changing specific language or approaches so that they may be more effective.
*sigh* Like I said, stepping up in these situations to do this labor is basically exactly what you're supposed to be doing as an ally. You don't need me to tell you this though, you know better.
Why do you think that it is a valid criticism and you're right that the identifiers used in labeling leagues can be problematic?
Who is stopping Liquipedia from not doing this problematic thing?
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On July 05 2026 03:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2026 02:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 05 2026 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 05 2026 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:
I coached the women's handball team when I was in the UK, in both teams I played for. Not expecting an attaboy or anything, I think most of us try to make our environment a little bit better and more inclusive.
I'm still wondering if that's not the right approach, then what is? You guys understand that what makes your guys' reflexive "I'm a nice guy" and "not all men" responses problematic (and the shitposting amplifying it) isn't the good deeds you've done outside of the context of this immediate discussion? That these CS leagues/players are referenced to as "female" is emblematic of what I'm talking about (particularly the obliviousness). I get the impression that Artesimo is sincere. I appreciate them improving their behavior/understanding and for others stepping up so I didn't have to be the person to hand-hold educate something others already know, which is again a known problematic issue among progressives/feminist efforts that DPB could expand on (that's the kind of stuff that allies are supposed to do for those asking), but it's not just an Artesimo problem https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/Female_TournamentsPart of what I was talking about in my original post is how sooo many of the "little things" like that and plenty of more overtly problematic things just don't even register to you all as discouraging the people you would otherwise believe you're "trying your best" to appeal to/provide safe spaces for and believe it is other things outside of your control why there are so few women that feel comfortable posting on TL (where there's plenty of space for things outside of being top tier competitive Starcraft players). So who is forcing liquipedia to call them "Female Tournaments"? GH: " "female" is a problematic way to refer to women's leagues in order to ignore the systemic critique to focus on the personal" [DPB: I think that's a valid criticism and you're right that the identifiers used in labeling leagues can be problematic] + Show Spoiler +WombaT / Uldridge / EnDeR_ : How so? Please explain why.
GH: "I didn't have to be the person to hand-hold educate ... overtly problematic things just don't even register to you all"
You brought up the topic. You called out the community. You made the assertion. People asked you to clarify. You should share your insights so that people can be aware of what you're talking about, which might lead to changing specific language or approaches so that they may be more effective. *sigh* Like I said, stepping up in these situations to do this labor is basically exactly what you're supposed to be doing as an ally. You don't need me to tell you this though, you know better.
Which you haven't done. Thanks for explaining yourself that you are not an ally by your own fucked up standards.
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Norway28847 Posts
Why is female problematic? That is a genuine question, because I don't get it.
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On July 05 2026 03:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Why is female problematic? That is a genuine question, because I don't get it.
Probably not inclusive to trans women.
He would much prefer the gender roles affirming stereotypical name women's league /s.
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Happy 250th birthday to the single greatest nation in the history of any world beheld by human eyes!
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On July 05 2026 03:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Why is female problematic? That is a genuine question, because I don't get it. Because its 'the tournament' and 'the female tournament'
Male is the default, female is the 'other'.
Ofcourse GH doesn't actually answer a question and can't give an answer because he doesn't have one and doesn't give a shit. he just wants to claim to be high and might and presumably boost his ego by feeling like he is 'better'.
He sure as shit isn't here to discuss or educate anyone because he can't answer basic fucking questions.
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On July 05 2026 03:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Why is female problematic? That is a genuine question, because I don't get it.
Does the term "female identifying" in an attempt to include trans women genuinely not immediately stand out to you as problematic for obvious reasons?
No one (besides DPB who I'm hoping will elaborate)?
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On July 05 2026 04:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2026 03:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Why is female problematic? That is a genuine question, because I don't get it. Does the term "female identifying" in an attempt to include trans women genuinely not immediately stand out to you as problematic for obvious reasons? No one (besides DPB who I'm hoping will elaborate)?
I get stuck on : Did anyone ask you for your allyship on this issue, or are you just making it a trumpet you can blow to tout your own virtues? If noone asked you, that's not you being an ally, that's you being vanglorious.
I'm certain that, if confronted with the issue by someone impacted by the issue, TL would happily reassess its stance on referring to them as "Female tournaments" because why wouldn't they. I haven't noticed SC2 tournaments being labelled "co-ed tournaments" despite being co-ed though I'm sure again if presented with a legitimate grievance TL would assess their stance.
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He’s actively recruiting for MAGA and other right wing groups by exaggerating everything to nth that people who hate the left complain the left is about.
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Northern Ireland27110 Posts
On July 05 2026 02:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
GH: " "female" is a problematic way to refer to women's leagues in order to ignore the systemic critique to focus on the personal"
WombaT / Uldridge / EnDeR_ : How so? Please explain why.
GH: "I didn't have to be the person to hand-hold educate ... overtly problematic things just don't even register to you all"
You brought up the topic. You called out the community. You made the assertion. People asked you to clarify. You should share your insights so that people can be aware of what you're talking about, which might lead to changing specific language or approaches so that they may be more effective.
I may personally use ‘female’ in a context to denote an environment in which people of the female gender co-exist that would encompass either children or young teens, and also adults.
I’d use ‘women’ for an environment that’s predominately inhabited by adults.
Is this problematic or? What is the actual issue here?
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On July 05 2026 04:00 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2026 03:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Why is female problematic? That is a genuine question, because I don't get it. Because its 'the tournament' and 'the female tournament' Male is the default, female is the 'other'. + Show Spoiler +Ofcourse GH doesn't actually answer a question and can't give an answer because he doesn't have one and doesn't give a shit. he just wants to claim to be high and might and presumably boost his ego by feeling like he is 'better'.
He sure as shit isn't here to discuss or educate anyone because he can't answer basic fucking questions.
That's one reason and I appreciate you recognizing it and bringing it to people's attention. I'm sure there are more that people can come up with if they actually tried. If I was you guys I would google "why is woman/women preferred to female/females" one common thing that'll come up is that "female" can be dehumanizing.
For example: If I say "this random space on the dog show floor is for females" am I talking about the dogs or the humans? Whereas if I say "this random space on the dog show floor is for women" don't you know immediately I'm talking about the women?
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EPT
