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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1353 Posts
On July 04 2026 02:58 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2026 22:09 WombaT wrote:
If people who are generally very pro-trans, and decry various discriminatory practices aren’t discussing this particular issue, who’s going to take up that baton and run with it?
Whether something should be important, or reasonable won’t always correlate with whether it is to many people. And with the general (ridiculous) trans panic, sports seems to be a big vector driving resentment that expands outwards to other domains.
I don’t think it’s as crudely simple as throwing a bone out defusing wider prejudice, that’s obviously not going to happen with many folks. But in the past epoch I haven’t found repeating mantras like ‘trans men/women are women/men’ as the answer to every issue others have has proven particularly effective either.
If it was we wouldn’t be seeing so much of this inhuman backlash to trans people in all sorts of locales.
I am generally very pro-Trans and very pro-Abortion. I don't think I'm qualified or that I should be prosecuting my beliefs regarding this because it's not my place and any discussion of "well, life begins at inception" and "well, intersex people have advantages" just gives credence to people who are anti those things. 40 years ago it was "can animals be gay, is being gay natural" and millions of bigots used these "discussions" to drag people down into the mud with them in order to prevent progress. 30 years ago it was "can gay people rise children, won't other children be cruel to them". 20 years ago (at least in my country) it was "why is there no straight pride, why do they get to parade around", into "we are religious and marriage is between a man and a woman". 10 years ago we had "won't these trans people harass women and girls in their bathrooms". We are now at "is it really fair to let them play sports". Every step of the way the conservatives were using these issues to have people who are generally tolerant and good get lost in these stupid discussions in order to distract them from real issues. Sicking people at each other and having them waste energy arguing over bullshit is how we lose, "trans men/women are women/men" is the only valid answer to these assholes, same as "gay people are normal and should have all rights anyone else has", it's incredible to me that you don't see that. And before you or any of the others say "but if ‘trans men/women are women/men’ does that mean that they should be let to play sports" the only valid answer is who gives a fuck leave that to the school/organization. Period.
Unfortunately, I kind agree with Wombat on thise one. I think most people on the left, and certainly most people vaguely left leaning here do have the general attitude towards conservative issues regarding trans, gay, body autonomy of: "Why the fuck are we wasting breath, time and, god forbid, legislative energy discussing this, just let people do what they want with their own bodies and sleep with and/or marry whichever consenting adults they choose, and do whatever they want to their dangly bits, pray or critisize whichever imaginary magic being they want, this is not a worthwhile application of politics". We'd gladly leave it at that and far prefer to be discussing economic, political and other power disparities, because those inevitably result in the powerful imposing their wants onto others, and taking away the less powerful people's ability to choose those to what they want, including on the above.
The problem is, conservatives are not a monolith. For some of them: legislating what people can do with their bodies, who they can marry and enshrining religious ideas into law, education etc ARE their primary interest in politics. It's so important to them that they will go to the immense effort and time to get on those incredibly boring and tedious school boards, glad-hand their way onto equally boring and tedious sporting legislation bodies, and form equally boring and tedious political action groups specifically to do this.
While we would like to say, 'lets not waste time and effort on these trivial things', the truth is not engaging in the conservatives on these (not specifically here on some random gaming forum) would be just conceding that ground.
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Wait until you have mandate and then do it. Not something to campaign on because it’s a losing issue.
Sucks.
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Norway28876 Posts
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them.
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I'm just glad we didn't go 5 pages on defining what a woman is (this time).
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Northern Ireland27272 Posts
On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them.
Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there.
Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course
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On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course
I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way.
It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo.
You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate.
Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues.
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Northern Ireland27272 Posts
I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible.
The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try)
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On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try)
This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response.
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On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Sports and bathrooms unite the right and divide the left. That, to me, is interesting. The segment of the right-wing that will take it into pronouns and protest A through Z is comparatively uninteresting (it's a problem, but not an interesting problem). The left in America has their version of Falling --- "don't try to tell me the volleyball problem can be approximated as genetically gifted cis women in terms of competition or safety, and definitely don't try to say sex differences are due to structural sexism or nonexistent." But people can and do, and the fringe will call his cohort ignorant on the science, transphobes, and allies of the ban-everything right.
I've yet to find interesting debates on sex-segregated spaces outside of those two (A third could be prisons, but that has prison safety as the greater issue), where honestly reasonable people can disagree in the middle, but the extremes are quite a bit louder.
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Northern Ireland27272 Posts
On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response.
Right then, I’ve seen the light. We’ll just stop bothering and everything will sort itself out, seems much more sensible. Not sure why I didn’t think of that before
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United States44247 Posts
On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response.
You somehow rolled a negative charisma stat. In your position I'd reroll.
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On July 04 2026 09:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response. Right then, I’ve seen the light. We’ll just stop bothering and everything will sort itself out, seems much more sensible. Not sure why I didn’t think of that before
This is the textbook tantrum that typically follows.
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On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response.
Completely wrong. What he is doing is actual grass roots activism within his bubble, and likely making a difference.
You lash out because it highlights how bullshit your position is.
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On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues.
Ragebait?
|
On July 04 2026 11:22 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. Ragebait?
Ragebait.
|
On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response.
If you want to understand why the left fails, read GH.
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On July 04 2026 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 09:39 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response. Right then, I’ve seen the light. We’ll just stop bothering and everything will sort itself out, seems much more sensible. Not sure why I didn’t think of that before This is the textbook tantrum that typically follows.
Okay, then explain what you expect us to do. Not being toxic and working on making your immediate surroundings not toxic seems like a very good thing a person can do, but apparently that isn't good enough for you.
So explain, instead of giving semi-toxic oneliners. What is it that you actually expect.
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On July 04 2026 11:22 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. Ragebait?
Is Black Girl Gamers Ragebait? Yeah I guess, probably to a certain demographic anyway.
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On July 04 2026 16:00 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 09:39 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response. Right then, I’ve seen the light. We’ll just stop bothering and everything will sort itself out, seems much more sensible. Not sure why I didn’t think of that before This is the textbook tantrum that typically follows. Okay, then explain what you expect us to do. Not being toxic and working on making your immediate surroundings not toxic seems like a very good thing a person can do, but apparently that isn't good enough for you. So explain, instead of giving semi-toxic oneliners. What is it that you actually expect.
I didn't mean to imply that not being toxic and working on making your immediate surroundings not toxic wasn't a good thing to do, same for being a nice guy.
I used the "nice guy" "not all men" framing hoping the familiarity was already there from online Dem rhetoric. Are you guys actually not familiar with why responding that way is problematic?
Are we considering TL.net our immediate surroundings?
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On July 04 2026 18:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2026 16:00 Simberto wrote:On July 04 2026 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 09:39 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 08:36 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 08:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 04 2026 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 04 2026 06:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't think the trans people and sports is the interesting discussion, here. I think the interesting discussion is to what degree we want society to be gender segregated. The trans discussion tends to work as a placeholder for this discussion- people who want society to be less gender segregated tend to be more positive towards trans people while people who want society to be more segregated along gender lines are more negative. Sports happen to be an area where many people think it makes sense to separate men and women because men are biologically superior in most sports, and thus, people who are otherwise entirely trans positive end up being a bit more 'eh I'm not quite sure how to go about this' when talking about trans women competing on a professional level.
But this is an area where there is an ongoing ideological/religious debate, and where I myself - as a teacher- experience that youth today (in norway) are more separated along gender lines than they were 25 years ago. But like, where most people will at least claim that they are in favor of equality of opportunity for men and women, there's a much bigger divide in terms of whether they want equality of outcome, and - the central element dividing people is to what degree differences are biological or cultural. This discussion is one I think is genuinely interesting - and important, because there is a lot of variety between different times and cultures, and it doesn't shape the future of a handful of athletes, but of all humans.
I've also probably adjusted my pov throughout my adult life, in the sense that I've become more accepting of the idea that, for example, men are on average more centered around 'things' and women are on average more centered around 'people' and that this influences which professions they are likely to choose. This means I become less interested in, for example, quotas as a method of creating more equal distribution of men/women in different jobs - but also, more interested in increasing the pay for jobs that have 80%+ women working them. Yeah it’s a curious one, I can’t pretend to have a huge amount of insight there. + Show Spoiler +Been doing conventions (usually setup and casting SC2 tournaments) for like 15 years, and compared to my youth there’s a lot more girls and women who are into nerd culture and proud of it, there’s been a bit of a social or cultural shift there. + Show Spoiler +Equally, despite said shift the eSports events, card game events or tabletop wargaming events are still pretty male dominated, women tend to dominate the art stalls or the cosplay events amongst others that are either less competitive in nature or more social.
Purely anecdotal of course I couldn't help but think of people like cheergurl ( https://www.tiktok.com/@xocheergurlox/video/7637277240115350798 ) and orgs like Black Girl Gamers ( https://www.theblackgirlgamers.com/ ) as an indispensable part of how it got that way. It's worth waiting for the end of cheergurls video if listening is an option imo. You guys really don't appreciate how miserable you (either actively or by what you allow around you) make these spaces for people other than whiteclub/adjacent guys. You have to understand you all are a major reason why there aren't more women and Black people here and around various scenes and why we typically would rather just not be around you whether that means making our own spaces or just abandoning an interest because of the community around that interest is too toxic for an individual to tolerate. Historically/evidently the primary way to get white men (and their lackeys) to be less bigoted shitheads in the US is to force them against their will and let them retroactively explain how it was really their idea/intent all along. That's something that connects all these issues. I can’t generate competitive minded StarCraft players from thin air, and we’ve actively worked to be as welcoming as possible. The general toxicity of online gaming, especially it being disproportionately wielded versus certain groups is certainly a factor, but not something I can particularly shift for the better (although I do try) This is basically the standard "I'm a nice/good guy" combined with "Not all men" response. Right then, I’ve seen the light. We’ll just stop bothering and everything will sort itself out, seems much more sensible. Not sure why I didn’t think of that before This is the textbook tantrum that typically follows. Okay, then explain what you expect us to do. Not being toxic and working on making your immediate surroundings not toxic seems like a very good thing a person can do, but apparently that isn't good enough for you. So explain, instead of giving semi-toxic oneliners. What is it that you actually expect. I didn't mean to imply that not being toxic and working on making your immediate surroundings not toxic wasn't a good thing to do, same for being a nice guy. I used the "nice guy" "not all men" framing hoping the familiarity was already there from online Dem rhetoric. Are you guys actually not familiar with why responding that way is problematic? Are we considering TL.net our immediate surroundings?
Is anything gaming related that isn't a lan party or among a circle of offline friends be considered the immediate surrounding?
Also anyone who is even remotely interested in actually improving things and helping the cause would have explained why they think its problematic instead of asking it condescendingly. Remember when I ranted in here about all the US people being all talk and no bite when it comes to trump and his politics? If I had to pick an avatar of that, it would be you. Nothing I have ever read from you gave me the impression that you do anything meaningful to further your causes, only snarky remarks, and if you do something its probably the kind of action that only alienates your target audience and drives everyone away. Your post history is a perfect example for that.
Lets purity check on this, what have you done to further say women in gaming? I can tell you what I have done, I build up and coached some female cs teams. Due to me having a professional background in that area with over a decade of experience, I was able to effectively build up some talent, help them navigate the space and get them into contact with other high skilled male players for scrims to help them improve as well as being shown acceptance from people that matter more than some random online person. I also used my credibility and connections within the scene to have some players, admins, and organisers within the scene/the leagues the teams I coached competed in get reprimanded or even sanctioned for sexist behaviour and boundary crossing, and I would say I hade a lasting positive impact on multiple scenes by that.
I can also say that I directly got at least 18 of the players I coached to feel like they can actually have a place in the scene, and that had considered leaving it all together before joining one of the rosters I coached. Overall its probably more, but I just stick to the ones that directly told me so.
So what have you done? I would not be surprised if you couldn't think of a single person who you directly affected positively in this, and I would be even less surprised if in total you managed to drive more people away and turn the "normal sexism"/ "casual sexists" or whatever you wanna call the average joe who is insensitive and doesn't think much about their behaviour into doubling down on their BS because you come out with garbage like your post right there.
Let me tell you from someone who actually did the work, after the actual sexists, you are the type of person that was my biggest enemy throughout my coaching activities. Which ultimately prompted this post because by god your posting is normally insufferable but you really managed to hit a nerve with that one for me. You are not an ally, your are the enemy.
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EPT
