EPTHow are you going to reach these people?
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EnDeR_
Spain2689 Posts
How are you going to reach these people? | ||
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Zambrah
United States7297 Posts
On March 27 2025 01:50 EnDeR_ wrote: You are still making the same argument, i.e. that tacking left would have delivered the win. Those working people you refer to believe they are better off with Trump. They see his trade wars as a way to bring jobs into America. They see his tax cuts putting money in their bank accounts, etc. These working people are not particularly on board with DEI initiatives and were quite fine with the explotation of other people for their benefit. How are you going to reach these people? Make any and everything adjacent to the cost of living cheaper would be my first recommendation. Also, remember that not everyone in the US votes, in fact, a metric shit ton don't, which is why I stress turnout, swinging voters from the other side is an infinitely worse strategy given the state of the US than making a concerted effort to drive people out to the polls. The problem is Democrats arent equipped to do this, theyre the opposite of inspirational, hate the only vaguely likeable members of their party, and are only capable of radically underdelivering on promises assuming they deliver on them at all. The AOC/Bernie strategy of lots of rallies is a good idea atm, if only the rest of the party wasnt so unfathomably lazy. Get out there, talk to people, hear people, address their concerns without telling them theyre evil or stupid or you think you cant afford rent but sorry you actually can. Take their antagonist emotional energy and point it where it belongs, the billionaires and monied interests strangling the working class. You pay taxes, why doesnt Amazon, why doesnt Elon Musk, why are the uber rich getting away with not paying taxes but you do? Framing things in a left/right way is poor strategy, its not left/right its working class/ultra rich, and Democrats should frame it that way. Or they can frame it however the Republicans want it framed, thats their usual strategy. | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2689 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44319 Posts
On March 27 2025 02:06 Zambrah wrote: Make any and everything adjacent to the cost of living cheaper would be my first recommendation. I thought that would have done the trick too, since that was a core part of Harris's platforms and speeches... How to make groceries cheaper. With actual ideas, not just stating that they're currently too high. How to make housing more affordable. With actual ideas, not just stating that it's currently too high. How to make raising families more affordable. With actual ideas, not just stating that it's currently too high. How to lower medical costs. With actual ideas, not just stating that they're currently too high. How to make wages higher. With actual ideas, not just stating that they're currently too low. Perhaps they didn't believe Harris or pay attention, or were too obsessed with Trump's nonsense about DEI and hating immigrants. But when various polls said that a major concern of voters was the economy - and yet those voters don't actually support the person who would continue to improve the economy - there's some sort of disconnect going on. People voted for tariffs and other ways to hurt our economy. Maybe Harris just had to be louder and angrier, or focus more on style than substance, but Harris's economic platform was miles ahead of Trump's, and she wasn't silent about it. Maybe too many people were trapped in anti-Harris echo chambers and never actually listened to Harris. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23225 Posts
On March 27 2025 02:06 Zambrah wrote: Make any and everything adjacent to the cost of living cheaper would be my first recommendation. Also, remember that not everyone in the US votes, in fact, a metric shit ton don't, which is why I stress turnout, swinging voters from the other side is an infinitely worse strategy given the state of the US than making a concerted effort to drive people out to the polls. The problem is Democrats arent equipped to do this, theyre the opposite of inspirational, hate the only vaguely likeable members of their party, and are only capable of radically underdelivering on promises assuming they deliver on them at all. The AOC/Bernie strategy of lots of rallies is a good idea atm, if only the rest of the party wasnt so unfathomably lazy. Get out there, talk to people, hear people, address their concerns without telling them theyre evil or stupid or you think you cant afford rent but sorry you actually can. Take their antagonist emotional energy and point it where it belongs, the billionaires and monied interests strangling the working class. You pay taxes, why doesnt Amazon, why doesnt Elon Musk, why are the uber rich getting away with not paying taxes but you do? Framing things in a left/right way is poor strategy, its not left/right its working class/ultra rich, and Democrats should frame it that way. Or they can frame it however the Republicans want it framed, thats their usual strategy. LibHorizons: Couldn't agree more with basically all of this. Democrats have been told for ~a decade (here and basically everywhere else) they need to do all of this, and as you've pointed out they don't because that's not what they are paid by their donors to do. It's the Hamster Wheel+ Show Spoiler + 1. There's a problem 2. Politicians won't fix it 3. Need to replace the politicians with ones that will 4. Can't replace the politicians because of how the system works 5. Need to fix the system 6. Politicians won't fix it (because it benefits them) 7. Repeat ad nauseam. I can't get on board with socialism, and I can't call myself "anti-capitalist", but I'm agreeing with you. How on earth do we break the cycle of the wheel and make Democrats do this though? EDIT: Seems even more impossible to do when people like DPB have convinced themselves Democrats like Biden and Harris were already doing what you're suggesting. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7297 Posts
Perhaps they didn't believe Harris or pay attention Its really both, people are politically apathetic because both parties have been fucking them for so long and feel (rightfully) pretty hopeless, and the Democrats have cultivated a real reputation as worthless and ineffectual. They dug themselves a colossal hole, if they want out they have to really actually work for it, but thats not their MO and everything I have seen from Democrats since their election loss says to me that they have absolutely no interest in doing any work or changing any strategy. To Democrats they did everything right, they have no interest in change, they have no interest in anything other than running another milquetoast centrist candidate who they can maybe get on Joe Rogan this time 'cause Joe Rogan will totally fix all their problems. I really have more faith in a second Civil War happening where we have to go and put down the Nazis again than I do that the Democrats would lift a finger to stop it. I can't get on board with socialism, and I can't call myself "anti-capitalist", Honestly, I think a lot of people are frustrated and disenfranchised enough by society that they're more in my "anything but this, someone do something, literally anything I will try anything please," head space than any real ideological one. It could be great for a movement to start reigning in capitalism (at least) but instead its being used to start a fascist movement, lol. Wasted discontentment imo. | ||
KwarK
United States42674 Posts
On March 27 2025 01:33 Zambrah wrote: The strategy should be to appeal to the working class, energy the most people, the people who work for a living, to vote for you and then (this is the key part that Democrats love to weaponize their incompetence to avoid) deliver on making their lives meaningfully better. That doesnt work for the billionaire donors though, so, y'know, maybe they'll see if they can snag the Bush family, maybe do a photo op with Jeb or something. This did nothing to swing any conservative voters to her, all Harris did in her tack right was tell people who dont want conservatives in government that she would make sure to include conservatives in government. Its absolutely brain dead. Swing voter strategies are brain dead, I have said this forever, Democrats win on turnout, not swinging 3 total conservatives across all of the US to vote for Democrats. Big part of the problem is Democrats incessant ineffectuality, they look actively willfully incompetent, noone expects them to do shit but capitulate to Republicans and themselves, they'll find excuses to break their promises and do nothing, thats the image Democrats have cultivated. Democrats have basically jerked themselves off into a corner, noone trusts them to keep campaign promises so they cant really bank on people believing what they say, and they're weak and ineffectual do-nothings so when they do get into office they perpetuate people's lack of trust in them. You keep arguing that the Democrats just need to harness the class consciousness that Americans don’t possess. A poor working class man in Texas is going to identify as a Texan, a normal (white, male, straight, cis), a southerner (he doesn’t know Texas wasn’t in the Confederacy) , a conservative, a Christian, an evangelical, a cowboys fan, a Republican, a farmer (on the basis of his truck, he works in construction but his truck identifies him as a farmer), a patriot etc. If you word cloud Americans describing themselves you’re going to get a shitload of fascist sympathizer identity politics words and absolutely nothing about class. White working class Americans and black working class Americans are not part of the same political identity. There’s no overlap there beyond all of their shared interests. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23225 Posts
On March 27 2025 02:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I thought that would have done the trick too, since that was a core part of Harris's platforms and speeches... How to make groceries cheaper. With actual ideas, not just stating that they're currently too high. How to make housing more affordable. With actual ideas, not just stating that it's currently too high. How to make raising families more affordable. With actual ideas, not just stating that it's currently too high. How to lower medical costs. With actual ideas, not just stating that they're currently too high. How to make wages higher. With actual ideas, not just stating that they're currently too low. Perhaps they didn't believe Harris or pay attention, or were too obsessed with Trump's nonsense about DEI and hating immigrants. But when various polls said that a major concern of voters was the economy - and yet those voters don't actually support the person who would continue to improve the economy - there's some sort of disconnect going on. People voted for tariffs and other ways to hurt our economy. Maybe Harris just had to be louder and angrier, or focus more on style than substance, but Harris's economic platform was miles ahead of Trump's, and she wasn't silent about it. Maybe too many people were trapped in anti-Harris echo chambers and never actually listened to Harris. ThirdHorizons: Exactly. But of course Harris couldn't be louder and angrier without triggering the same sexism that stopped Hillary with some extra racism on the side. Whyever Harris lost, it wasn't for her lack of having and pushing good policies that could be improving the country right now, if people just had the sense to put their misgivings aside and supported her. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7297 Posts
You keep arguing that the Democrats just need to harness the class consciousness that Americans don’t possess. I fundamentally disagree with this as both an American and someone who is of the poor/working class. Ive espoused my political beliefs to hard-drug using redneck laborers who are prime Trump people and when I frame it the right way they were generally in agreement. These people just want to sit home, drink beer, be pissed off at the sports ball of their choosing, and ruin their bodies for drug money. The general dumb/uncaring nature is a tool that Trump has proven is easily exploitable, but the only people who seem capable or willing to work with that nature are the Bernie types. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10499 Posts
On March 26 2025 23:58 Uldridge wrote: Because every election cycle the US becomes more unhinged? You could even argue that MAGA initially seceded from the traditional Republican party until they all fell in line (to keep their power). I'd rather see reforms instead of implosions, but we'll see how things will turn out I guess. Not seeing it cool off in the upcoming years though. Yep the big difference here is Republicans have concluded their civil war. MAGA won and everyone else has fallen in line to present a united front. Dems are still split in 2 between the old guard moderates and the younger progressives. I’d argue they would do better if they went all in with the moderates and others think they should court the progressives. What Kamala did was try to court both by giving word salad non-answers to every question and overall hiding from the media until Election Day. In the end the moderates saw her as too progressive and the progressives saw her as too moderate. Ezra Klein did a debrief on the 2024 election with a leading Democratic pollster if anyone is interested in some data to go along with the theories https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/18/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-david-shor.html Voter turnout was not all that different in the swing states. Trump made massive swings in certain demographics such as a 23-point swing among “moderate Hispanics” and an 11-point swing from “moderate Asians.” Most interestingly in my opinion is that Trump took a double digit lead among non-voters. It’s been the case since I’ve been alive that the electorate overall favors Democrats and if we had 100% voter turnout then the Dems would dominate the election. Now if we had 100% voter turnout Trump would have crushed the popular vote by 5 points according to these polls. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
Man these folks really are clowns. Or worse. Can they not just take a hit and own a fuckup? Instead we get the usual attacks on media, or indeed the very concept of basic scrutiny. If anything the Atlantic were pretty damn judicious here. They left the chat relatively quickly, they didn’t drop the contents of said chat (until now, basically in response to White House nonsense), like what more do you want? In keeping with what has become standard practice, today's briefing begins with Karoline Leavitt touting what the administration sees as its most notable achievements of the last several days. She then quickly pivots to attacking the media for coverage of "Signalgate". "There were certainly no war plans discussed," Leavitt says, echoing a talking point she shared on social media earlier. She directly attacks The Atlantic's editor-in-chief Jeffrey Goldberg as an "anti-Trump hater" and registered Democrat. She also criticises his career as a reporter, including during the Iraq War and the 2016 electoral campaign. "The real story here is the overwhelming success of decisive military action against Houthi terrorists," Leavitt continues. Look I understand the sad necessity of political spin as much as the next bloke/blokette but we’re hitting Ministry of Truth levels at seemingly every second press briefing these days. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On March 27 2025 03:21 BlackJack wrote: Yep the big difference here is Republicans have concluded their civil war. MAGA won and everyone else has fallen in line to present a united front. Dems are still split in 2 between the old guard moderates and the younger progressives. I’d argue they would do better if they went all in with the moderates and others think they should court the progressives. What Kamala did was try to court both by giving word salad non-answers to every question and overall hiding from the media until Election Day. In the end the moderates saw her as too progressive and the progressives saw her as too moderate. Ezra Klein did a debrief on the 2024 election with a leading Democratic pollster if anyone is interested in some data to go along with the theories https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/18/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-david-shor.html Voter turnout was not all that different in the swing states. Trump made massive swings in certain demographics such as a 23-point swing among “moderate Hispanics” and an 11-point swing from “moderate Asians.” Most interestingly in my opinion is that Trump took a double digit lead among non-voters. It’s been the case since I’ve been alive that the electorate overall favors Democrats and if we had 100% voter turnout then the Dems would dominate the election. Now if we had 100% voter turnout Trump would have crushed the popular vote by 5 points according to these polls. Yeah that’s interesting, I think everyone and their dog has some pet theory that if we only did x, we’d win. Not always reflected by the data. I think what goes neglected is sometimes simply time. Whatever course of action you choose, it’s rarely an overnight process. I’d say the roots go longer, back to ye olde Tea Party but even MAGAism has been a kind of consistent pull for a good 8 years+ now. Maybe the Dems just have to accept an uneasy coalition, but let’s say they did start better courting the progressive wing for sake of argument. I personally think that can work, but the problem is that you have to commit, at least in the medium term to doing that. It’s a base that is somewhat galvanised by actual hope and change, or at least seeing people fighting for it. It’s not, however a tap you can just turn on for one electoral cycle and have it deliver what you want. I’m happily on record as thinking a lot of anti-woke stuff is utter bollocks, but I mean so is much of US politics right now and I just gotta deal with reality. Others’ mileage may vary, I think the ballpark path is to excise some of the ‘woke’ stuff, be broadly moderate and sensible and then really attack a couple of areas progressively. Could be healthcare reform, could be taxing the rich, could be housing. It’s not across the board, otherwise the US wouldn’t look like it currently does, but there are areas where the progressive solution is the popular one, across the party divide even in some cases. Attack those properly, and hey you’ve got a shot. If the progressive wing hypothetically took over entirely, even though I may agree with them on many things, the totality of their platform is a very hard sell to America at large. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44319 Posts
"The information Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth disclosed in the Signal chat of top Trump national security officials was highly classified at the time he wrote it, especially because the operation had not even started yet, according to a US defense official familiar with the operation and another source who was briefed on it afterward. The updates Hegseth was giving in the Signal chat were the kind of real-time play-by-play that a commander would be giving to the president in a highly classified setting as the operation unfolded. “These are operational plans that are highly classified in order to protect the service members,” the defense official said. A third source familiar with the matter said they saw documents sent within the Pentagon about the operation, which were marked classified and included the same information Hegseth disclosed in the Signal chat about specific weapons platforms and timing. “It was classified when it was shared below the principal level,” this person said." https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/03/26/politics/the-atlantic-publishes-signal-messages-yemen-strike | ||
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Husyelt
United States832 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10499 Posts
On March 27 2025 11:21 Husyelt wrote: Legally could you get in trouble for stopping an ICE abduction? Say you were on the street saw 3 vans pull up with masked ICE officers, called attention to it and got a crowd to stop the maid or student being taken away? Also maybe unmask them by force? Would that be okie dokey? Yes you can be charged with obstruction | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2603 Posts
On March 27 2025 11:21 Husyelt wrote: Legally could you get in trouble for stopping an ICE abduction? Say you were on the street saw 3 vans pull up with masked ICE officers, called attention to it and got a crowd to stop the maid or student being taken away? Also maybe unmask them by force? Would that be okie dokey? I think that it a felony up to 10 years in prison. And given the hardline rhetoric there is a good chance you will actually get prosecuted. | ||
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Slydie
1916 Posts
On March 27 2025 11:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I wonder if there will be any consequences for leaking classified information. Doubtful. "The information Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth disclosed in the Signal chat of top Trump national security officials was highly classified at the time he wrote it, especially because the operation had not even started yet, according to a US defense official familiar with the operation and another source who was briefed on it afterward. The updates Hegseth was giving in the Signal chat were the kind of real-time play-by-play that a commander would be giving to the president in a highly classified setting as the operation unfolded. “These are operational plans that are highly classified in order to protect the service members,” the defense official said. A third source familiar with the matter said they saw documents sent within the Pentagon about the operation, which were marked classified and included the same information Hegseth disclosed in the Signal chat about specific weapons platforms and timing. “It was classified when it was shared below the principal level,” this person said." https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/03/26/politics/the-atlantic-publishes-signal-messages-yemen-strike If nothing is done, both politicians and media opposing the Trump admin will get to use this against them for a very long time. The excuses made by Fox and friends are very weak, and go in the line of "but but Biden documets", and "this was no Biggie, they just added the wrong person to the chat." The incompetence is disgusting. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21675 Posts
On March 27 2025 17:26 Slydie wrote: The issue is that the voters are not going to give a fuck. Because they never do.If nothing is done, both politicians and media opposing the Trump admin will get to use this against them for a very long time. The excuses made by Fox and friends are very weak, and go in the line of "but but Biden documets", and "this was no Biggie, they just added the wrong person to the chat." The incompetence is disgusting. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44319 Posts
On March 27 2025 17:43 Gorsameth wrote: The issue is that the voters are not going to give a fuck. Because they never do. That's my worry too. Even if the messages had included additional statements that were also bad - like jokingly proposing (or seriously proposing) to drop bombs on Biden, or calling Obama the n-word, or admitting to felonies, or saying Trump's voters are stupid - I don't see anything moving the needle at all in the eyes of the MAGA cult. They'd hand-wave it away as fake news or a glitch or taken out of context or whatever. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25283 Posts
On March 27 2025 17:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: That's my worry too. Even if the messages had included additional statements that were also bad - like jokingly proposing (or seriously proposing) to drop bombs on Biden, or calling Obama the n-word, or admitting to felonies, or saying Trump's voters are stupid - I don't see anything moving the needle at all in the eyes of the MAGA cult. They'd hand-wave it away as fake news or a glitch or taken out of context or whatever. This is really the crux of the problem for me aye. Not to shrug my shoulders and go ‘hey live laugh love, nobody’s perfect, mistakes happen’ at everything, some fuckups are more egregious than others. But in general I’m somewhat forgiving of the odd fuckup. It’s the denials, it’s the attacks on people actually doing their jobs. It’s the complete lack of all-round professionalism subsequently that are indicative of the bigger problems, not just on this specific issue but more broadly. And of course it’s a segment of the population who don’t see an issue with this. | ||
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