Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
GH: The idea is that I'd like people to try out behaving as a socialist in my blog so I might as well demonstrate I can and am doing that with behaving like a progressive. LibHorizons doesn't advocate the abolition of capitalism, votes for Democrats, believes in electoralism supplemented by direct action, and so on. Sort of 21st century Bull Moose Progressive.
I'd argue LibHorizons since inception is demonstrably a better Democrat than anyone here despite being on the periphery of the party and an informal demonstration of my capacity to behave like Democrats should.
ThirdHorizons: I'm not much of a fan of GreenHorizons Or LibHorizons. Think I'll be taking the lead for a bit.
Takeaways on Why Democrats Have a Cultural Disconnect with the Working Class
1. Overemphasis on Identity Politics Many working-class voters feel Democrats prioritize niche identity-based groups with overbroad, unifying messages, making them feel excluded rather than included.
2. The “Faculty Lounge” Problem Democrats are often viewed as judgmental, out-of-touch, and dismissive of those without elite education or progressive views. This makes the party seem disconnected from everyday people.
3. Failure to Prioritize Economic Concerns While voters struggle with jobs, wages, and inflation, Democrats are seen as more focused on cultural and social issues than on economic progress and opportunity.
4. Weak Messaging & Communication The party’s language is often vague, politically correct, or overly intellectual, making it hard for working class voters to connect with Democratic policies.
5. Fear of Dissent Within the Party Democrats are perceived as intolerant of internal debate, where questioning progressive orthodoxy results in backlash rather than open discussion. Candidates and operatives need to feel more comfortable just saying NO to activist groups and unpalatable far-left ideas.
6. Attachment to Unpopular Institutions Democrats are seen as defending elite institutions (academia, media, government bureaucracy) while being critical of institutions working-class people value (churches, small businesses, police).
7. Allowing the Far Left to Define the Party Activist groups and progressive staffers push unpopular cultural positions, making it seem like Democrats are more extreme than they actually are. Operatives and campaigns must remember that activist groups exist to promote their single issue and raise money around it, not to make Democrats electable.
8. Reactionary Rather Than Proactive Democrats often let Republicans set the terms of cultural debates (e.g., crime, immigration) instead of clearly defining their own positions in a way that resonates with voters.
9. Overreliance on Buzzwords & Political Correctness Terms like "pregnant people" and "Latinx" alienate working-class voters who see them as out of touch with real-world terms and vocabulary.
10. Lack of a Positive National Identity Message Democrats focus too much on America’s flaws (racism, sexism, inequality) without acknowledging the country’s progress and potential, making them seem pessimistic and unpatriotic.
The third way Democrats are insane with their views, in my opinion. Their points are more about optics than anything else. It's hard to see how they would actually want to change things. They seem to want only to copy Republican theatrics. It is insane that these people can be in the same party with AOC and Sanders. However, if there were elections in 2028, I would not be surprised if one of the third-way Democrats were the official candidate. Honestly, they do not deserve to win just by being the other option for Republicans. People need to realise that the lesser evil is still evil and that they need to work to get out of situations where they must constantly choose the lesser evil. Otherwise, you will be stuck in the situation for decades, and then you can't blame GH and the company for advocating a risky revolution.
ThirdHorizons: This "optics" idea applies much more to the "progressive" wing of the party than it does the base. Third Way Democrats are the Democrats getting everything done. Every piece of legislation Democrats pass is passed by Third Way Democrats, signed by a Third Way president, and all of them are elected by Third Way voters like myself.
Meanwhile, Bernie is doing another vanity tour.
He can draw a crowd sure, but that crowd needs to show up to support/vote for the Third Way Democrats if they want to oppose Trump, win elections, and pass legislation.
I disagree. God bless Bernie for keeping the torch alive despite getting up there in years. He is one of the few democrats who can actually speak to the moderates and win over their support. He's on the sidelines actually making sure people are still paying attention and trying to build another momentum. At least Sanders isnt faceplanting like Jeffries or Schumer during these important early months
Still, Graugnard said he does not regret voting for Trump.
I feel this is somewhat indicative of a wider problem, Trump did what he said he would do, his policies fucked me personally. I still support him. What do there?
Incidentally not sure if you saw it before up the page, when I was responding to GH the Third.
I thought you did a good job doing nuts and bolts breakdowns on policy here in the election cycle. Did you attempt that in other environments and how did you find the reception?
Thanks! TL is pretty much the only online forum that I use for real political conversations - I've found that other areas like Reddit and social media generally don't have engaged and good-faith interlocuters who are willing to have a multi-post dialogue. I had had plenty of in-person conversations too, but they were mostly either with reasonable people who already knew they'd vote for Harris (some happily, some begrudgingly), or with people who were completely convinced that Trump and Vance and Musk are God's gifts to the world, yet those MAGA voters couldn't articulate how those three men would improve our country. There were also a few neutral / on-the-fence voters that I spoke to (though I don't know how that was still possible in late 2024), and I think I convinced somewhere between 10 and 20 swing state voters to go from "staying home on Election Day" to "voting for Harris". For whatever that was worth.
And I don't think there's anything left to be done for Trump supporters who actively try to get their faces ripped off by the leopards that they voted for. This election has left me extremely disillusioned and depressed - there are no more excuses available for half of the voters. In my eyes, they've gone from being uninformed victims to being malicious saboteurs. I applied Hanlon's Razor for the 2016 election, and even for the 2020 election, but enough is enough. I'm so emotionally and mentally drained from listening and understanding and empathizing and communicating and approaching them Socratically and humbly and sincerely.
I also appreciate your responses to some of GH's/TH's "Takeaways on Why Democrats Have a Cultural Disconnect with the Working Class" points, because that list was just stupid.
Cheers for the response.
Same for me, I’m just burned out with it. Also why I basically only discuss such things here, same kinda reason as you gave.
Perhaps not always 100% here, but in general I try to engage in productive ways. Even way before this particular epoch, I was, for example never someone who’d sneer, or bash religion or whatever. Never been much of an elitist either, however I became much more conscious on avoiding that; or the appearance of it.
Alright, I’m hearing you out. I’m not doing all the things you complain about people not doing so you can play the perpetual victim with no agency, beset at all sides. I’m listening to your concern and earnestly responding. Let’s find some commonality, and let’s chat our differences, let’s maybe learn something.
What do I get? Fuckkkkkkk all of that like!
I’m not a big Family Guy fan, but there’s one skit involving a stubborn mule who insists that Kevin Bacon wasn’t in Footlose. It is fucking that, every time.
GH’s list IS stupid, because it’s describing a stupid phenomenon. It’s not really wrong in a descriptive sense (although IMO, it is in a prescriptive one).
It’s basically A - People don’t like us because of years of divisive demagoguery (and OK there are other problems that don’t fall under this, don’t get me wrong) B - Let’s combat this by basically saying the demagogues are right and moderate our message accordingly, even if it involves sacrificing some of our own principles and throwing some of our base under the bus.
If you want to go into a war of demagoguery, you better not be playing the same cards, against the same people who’ve been doing it for decades. Good fucking luck with that.
There is a path to do it, it may even work but 100%, absolutely not within the confines of Democratic respectability. Zero, and I mean zero chance of having those two co-existing in the same movement.
It’s ’free Luigi’, it’s ’eat the rich’, it’s good old-fashioned class warfare. If you want to fight fire with fire, that is your option. IMO, really the only option. Not, I might add the only political option available, but merely the only one if your thinking is ‘hey x y and z worked for them, why can’t we do that?’
On March 10 2025 03:59 Husyelt wrote: I disagree. God bless Bernie for keeping the torch alive despite getting up there in years. He is one of the few democrats who can actually speak to the moderates and win over their support. He's on the sidelines actually making sure people are still paying attention and trying to build another momentum. At least Sanders isnt faceplanting like Jeffries or Schumer during these important early months
I mean he’s not Jesus, last time I checked but it’s pretty remarkable that Sanders consistently shows that he can energise progressives, while simultaneously many moderates quite like him too, or at least dislike his politics while still admiring the man.
And this keeps happening and the Dems decide not to harness what he can bring to the table better?
GH: The idea is that I'd like people to try out behaving as a socialist in my blog so I might as well demonstrate I can and am doing that with behaving like a progressive. LibHorizons doesn't advocate the abolition of capitalism, votes for Democrats, believes in electoralism supplemented by direct action, and so on. Sort of 21st century Bull Moose Progressive.
I'd argue LibHorizons since inception is demonstrably a better Democrat than anyone here despite being on the periphery of the party and an informal demonstration of my capacity to behave like Democrats should.
ThirdHorizons: I'm not much of a fan of GreenHorizons Or LibHorizons. Think I'll be taking the lead for a bit.
Takeaways on Why Democrats Have a Cultural Disconnect with the Working Class
1. Overemphasis on Identity Politics Many working-class voters feel Democrats prioritize niche identity-based groups with overbroad, unifying messages, making them feel excluded rather than included.
2. The “Faculty Lounge” Problem Democrats are often viewed as judgmental, out-of-touch, and dismissive of those without elite education or progressive views. This makes the party seem disconnected from everyday people.
3. Failure to Prioritize Economic Concerns While voters struggle with jobs, wages, and inflation, Democrats are seen as more focused on cultural and social issues than on economic progress and opportunity.
4. Weak Messaging & Communication The party’s language is often vague, politically correct, or overly intellectual, making it hard for working class voters to connect with Democratic policies.
5. Fear of Dissent Within the Party Democrats are perceived as intolerant of internal debate, where questioning progressive orthodoxy results in backlash rather than open discussion. Candidates and operatives need to feel more comfortable just saying NO to activist groups and unpalatable far-left ideas.
6. Attachment to Unpopular Institutions Democrats are seen as defending elite institutions (academia, media, government bureaucracy) while being critical of institutions working-class people value (churches, small businesses, police).
7. Allowing the Far Left to Define the Party Activist groups and progressive staffers push unpopular cultural positions, making it seem like Democrats are more extreme than they actually are. Operatives and campaigns must remember that activist groups exist to promote their single issue and raise money around it, not to make Democrats electable.
8. Reactionary Rather Than Proactive Democrats often let Republicans set the terms of cultural debates (e.g., crime, immigration) instead of clearly defining their own positions in a way that resonates with voters.
9. Overreliance on Buzzwords & Political Correctness Terms like "pregnant people" and "Latinx" alienate working-class voters who see them as out of touch with real-world terms and vocabulary.
10. Lack of a Positive National Identity Message Democrats focus too much on America’s flaws (racism, sexism, inequality) without acknowledging the country’s progress and potential, making them seem pessimistic and unpatriotic.
The third way Democrats are insane with their views, in my opinion. Their points are more about optics than anything else. It's hard to see how they would actually want to change things. They seem to want only to copy Republican theatrics. It is insane that these people can be in the same party with AOC and Sanders. However, if there were elections in 2028, I would not be surprised if one of the third-way Democrats were the official candidate. Honestly, they do not deserve to win just by being the other option for Republicans. People need to realise that the lesser evil is still evil and that they need to work to get out of situations where they must constantly choose the lesser evil. Otherwise, you will be stuck in the situation for decades, and then you can't blame GH and the company for advocating a risky revolution.
ThirdHorizons: This "optics" idea applies much more to the "progressive" wing of the party than it does the base. Third Way Democrats are the Democrats getting everything done. Every piece of legislation Democrats pass is passed by Third Way Democrats, signed by a Third Way president, and all of them are elected by Third Way voters like myself.
He can draw a crowd sure, but that crowd needs to show up to support/vote for the Third Way Democrats if they want to oppose Trump, win elections, and pass legislation.
I disagree. God bless Bernie for keeping the torch alive despite getting up there in years. He is one of the few democrats who can actually speak to the moderates and win over their support. He's on the sidelines actually making sure people are still paying attention and trying to build another momentum. At least Sanders isnt faceplanting like Jeffries or Schumer during these important early months
ThirdHorizons: Disagree with what exactly?
Are Bernie's vanity rallies going to get anyone elected? Are they going pass any legislation? No. It's exactly the kind of "optics" focused tactic Legan was accusing us Third Way Democrats of. Jeffries and Schumer have been the ones getting everything done. Democrats haven't done anything for years without the indispensable contributions of Jeffries and more so Schumer.
Bernie and his supporters have been like the annoying younger sibling you hand the unplugged controller to so you two can hang out together and not get in trouble. But they had to pick a fight about which game we were playing (Palestine+). Now we're both in trouble, the game got thrown out the window, and neither of us will get to play anything again unless our petulant progressive/green/socialist/etc siblings stop crying, suck it up, and fall in line behind the only real strategy for winning in 2026 and 2028.
I think Democrats just need to focus on issues and work on the brand. Be the people who believe in a functional government. Have broad based messages and dont be affraid to call people liars.
Bernie gets this. Class is more important than identity politics. Not saying the identity politics doesnt have mostly truth in it but its not popular. In addition, its easy to see for regular people that money in the US is king. If you have money it doesnt matter your race,ethnicity,gender, etc. Railing on the patriarchy or white priveledge doesnt get you far when there are a shit ton of poor white people (not saying percentage wise compared to other ethnicities, im just talking sheer numbers).
Dont get into specifics, just state you believe in equal rights for all, leave it at that and implement policy protections for everyone. Anything other than that makes you seem out of touch.
I think we're steadily approaching a terminal velocity in the class war, as wealth disparity has become so obscene and flautingly so that some people might just not take it any more.
How do you deal with your guys who remain hyperfocused on identity politics though? The far right gets better and better at forcing their loonies to keep low profile before elections so they don't scare the moderate voters away. I'm not seeing the same kind of self-awareness on the far left.
Fundamentally, America is a conservative country. When a far right loony says something, well a bit loony, people kind of go 'someone just had to say what we were all thinking'. When a far left radical says something eminently sensible, people go 'nope, communism'.
On March 10 2025 05:56 Uldridge wrote: I think we're steadily approaching a terminal velocity in the class war, as wealth disparity has become so obscene and flautingly so that some people might just not take it any more.
Every time I have to give something away for money I feel bad for this reason. Money has become so mind boggingly meaningless in places. It‘s just held alive by having a functional state backing it and manipulating certain prices to hide how broken the system is.
I‘d hold onto anything that isn‘t money but valuable if I could.
I think I‘d exchange it instantly for something else these days if I got a batch. Holding onto big sums in a bank seems risky to me.
It‘s a bit offtopic so I spoilered it.
It fits within the picture that the law has become more of a promise than a fact in places.
Try getting a job as a convict. Unless it‘s POTUS. Go right ahead.
It‘s a job that involves killing people anyway. Directly or indirectly, so one would feel right at home.
On March 10 2025 05:58 Sent. wrote: How do you deal with your guys who remain hyperfocused on identity politics though? The far right gets better and better at forcing their loonies to keep low profile before elections so they don't scare the moderate voters away. I'm not seeing the same kind of self-awareness on the far left.
There’s really not that many, but you’ve a whole outrage cycle that actively seeks to dig it out, wherever it might be found. Academics and cultural critics writing about facets of identity and how it intersects in things isn’t anything new. I find it valuable and informative oft times.
Gamergate has a ton to answer for, it really set that blueprint. Take some obscure incidents, blow them up massively and frame it as a huge crisis. Someone like Anita Sarkesian would have languished in relative obscurity doing her thing, but got amplified out the wazoo by the very people complaining that feminism was ruining their vidya! Oh and along with that publicity, all that fun enjoyable hate mail.
I guess where I come around with ‘there’s too much identity politics’ is, what, to you (not you specifically, in general) is identity politics? And what is the threshold of acceptability?
A fair chunk of it just disappears if one doesn’t actively seek it out, obviously not all of it, but a considerable amount.
But yeah other areas, I think especially diversity programs, quotas etc can feel pretty shit if you’re in a struggling demographic and can’t get such help. I know in my locale it’s young, working class Prod men (white, although almost all are here) who are languishing in all sorts of metrics in recent trends and don’t get targeted assistance. So yeah, I understand in areas like that, or in other cultural discourse.
Are you talking at a party level that the far right do a better job here? I’d argue that maybe holds in Europe, I wasn’t seeing a huge amount of politicians, or your powerful orbiting figures like an Elon Musk keeping a low profile in the last US Presidential election cycle.
The thing with the US is, people don’t give a shit, including some moderates, that’s your reality there.
I guess the key difference is in the US, as increasingly in the UK, the main left-leaning party doesn’t really have a huge amount of far-left influence at all. And indeed, fair chunks of that cohort don’t even support said party. You can’t really rein in those who aren’t in your tent to begin with.
EPT
