EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4835
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Legan
Finland398 Posts
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Billyboy
855 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44137 Posts
On March 09 2025 01:09 Excludos wrote: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2025/03/07/trump-cabinet-confronted-elon-musk-white-house-showdown/ The amount of stupidity in this room is just genuinely unbelivable So Trump is telling Musk to fire people, just so Trump can have other people rehire them? First the nuclear security experts, and now flight experts? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21613 Posts
On March 09 2025 04:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Trump probably thought Musk would sell all the thousands of government employees that sit around doing nothing, or don't even exist and not the actual important people doing things.So Trump is telling Musk to fire people, just so Trump can have other people rehire them? First the nuclear security experts, and now flight experts? Turns out both of them are just idiots. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23112 Posts
On March 09 2025 04:19 Gorsameth wrote: Trump probably thought Musk would sell all the thousands of government employees that sit around doing nothing, or don't even exist and not the actual important people doing things. Turns out both of them are just idiots. LibHorizons: Remarkable how they ended up with the most money and power out of anyone in the US, isn't it? It doesn't mean they are geniuses, but it has to mean something pretty important right? | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway684 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8038 Posts
On March 09 2025 08:44 Timebon3s wrote: Why are u writing libhorizing in front of every post? He's larping. Or his mind finally broke. Whatever it is, best not engage | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23112 Posts
On March 09 2025 08:44 Timebon3s wrote: Why are u writing libhorizing in front of every post? LibHorizons: GH has explained this before GH: The idea is that I'd like people to try out behaving as a socialist in my blog so I might as well demonstrate I can and am doing that with behaving like a progressive. LibHorizons doesn't advocate the abolition of capitalism, votes for Democrats, believes in electoralism supplemented by direct action, and so on. Sort of 21st century Bull Moose Progressive. I'd argue LibHorizons since inception is demonstrably a better Democrat than anyone here despite being on the periphery of the party and an informal demonstration of my capacity to behave like Democrats should. ThirdHorizons: I'm not much of a fan of GreenHorizons Or LibHorizons. Think I'll be taking the lead for a bit. To that point, since all the other libs/Dems/ilk here are too shy to offer an alternative to LibHorizons Plan, here's some important takeaways from the Third Way assessment and plan to move forward. Takeaways on Why Democrats Have a Cultural Disconnect with the Working Class 1. Overemphasis on Identity Politics Many working-class voters feel Democrats prioritize niche identity-based groups with overbroad, unifying messages, making them feel excluded rather than included. 2. The “Faculty Lounge” Problem Democrats are often viewed as judgmental, out-of-touch, and dismissive of those without elite education or progressive views. This makes the party seem disconnected from everyday people. 3. Failure to Prioritize Economic Concerns While voters struggle with jobs, wages, and inflation, Democrats are seen as more focused on cultural and social issues than on economic progress and opportunity. 4. Weak Messaging & Communication The party’s language is often vague, politically correct, or overly intellectual, making it hard for working class voters to connect with Democratic policies. 5. Fear of Dissent Within the Party Democrats are perceived as intolerant of internal debate, where questioning progressive orthodoxy results in backlash rather than open discussion. Candidates and operatives need to feel more comfortable just saying NO to activist groups and unpalatable far-left ideas. 6. Attachment to Unpopular Institutions Democrats are seen as defending elite institutions (academia, media, government bureaucracy) while being critical of institutions working-class people value (churches, small businesses, police). 7. Allowing the Far Left to Define the Party Activist groups and progressive staffers push unpopular cultural positions, making it seem like Democrats are more extreme than they actually are. Operatives and campaigns must remember that activist groups exist to promote their single issue and raise money around it, not to make Democrats electable. 8. Reactionary Rather Than Proactive Democrats often let Republicans set the terms of cultural debates (e.g., crime, immigration) instead of clearly defining their own positions in a way that resonates with voters. 9. Overreliance on Buzzwords & Political Correctness Terms like "pregnant people" and "Latinx" alienate working-class voters who see them as out of touch with real-world terms and vocabulary. 10. Lack of a Positive National Identity Message Democrats focus too much on America’s flaws (racism, sexism, inequality) without acknowledging the country’s progress and potential, making them seem pessimistic and unpatriotic. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24934 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4539 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8038 Posts
Expect to hear a lot more about this in the coming months. This will be Trumps final ascension to total unchecked power. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On March 09 2025 09:30 GreenHorizons wrote: LibHorizons: GH has explained this before ThirdHorizons: I'm not much of a fan of GreenHorizons Or LibHorizons. Think I'll be taking the lead for a bit. To that point, since all the other libs/Dems/ilk here are too shy to offer an alternative to LibHorizons Plan, here's some important takeaways from the Third Way assessment and plan to move forward. A problem with a lot of this is that sure, some of the observations aren’t wrong, but the phrase ‘are seen to’ or ‘feels like’ feature a lot. Put crudely, if any media commentator or Twitter activist becomes ‘the Dems’, despite the party being a broad coalition that largely leans pretty centre, people may still end up with a perception that the Dems are radically left or whatever. I rarely have much sympathy for the party, in this regard I do somewhat. Essentially no matter what they, the party actually do, anything the left does, they are seen to be doing as well. Even when they aren’t, which is often. And even though I personally would prefer they were, which is also often. Going through a few points, I’ll skip a few. 1) What do people want here? Your hands held every time another group isn’t treated like shit? 3) Biden/Harris for example did have a much more fleshed-out economic plan than Trump. Wouldn’t be my plan personally, but it was a fuckload better than his. You even had a snappy centrepiece in the Green New Deal’ with a clear set of goals and objectives. That stuff is there. 4) Swap that out for ‘non-demagogic’ and you’re probably more on the money. No I think there can be issues here, but like was Walz ‘too intellectual’ in how he communicated on the trail? Granted he’s one bloke. 6) Those are unpopular institutions because of persistently being attacked by demagogues and the US’ oligarch class. These are all societal cornerstones, yeah if they’re dysfunctional call it out from time to time. But you need a functioning Fourth Estate, academia brings tons of innovations in the economic sphere as well as just expanding our cultural and political understanding. Governments need bureaucracy to function. I also don’t recall Dems being especially critical of Churches or small businesses (largely), although maybe I’m wrong there. 10) They do also do this. I’d argue that many have actually articulated what makes America ‘great’ from this side of the aisle than Trump actually does. This is a trap, and for me a big one, and one I’ve actually warned against doing myself. ‘Never argue with an idiot, they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.’ springs to mind. Now it’s not 100% that, but it’s not far off. You’re effectively attempting to beat MAGAism on its own ground, with a half-assed approach. And an approach that will alienate some of your own base to begin with. It’s a tactic of milquetoast centrism, while just jumping into every trap set for you. It’s quite counter to its own analysis too. ‘Don’t let the GOP define the debate’ juxtaposed with ‘yeah just drop all the stuff they’ve made unpopular’. I just don’t see it working meself. You’ve a real fundamental problem that the GOP will just lie to people, and the people will buy it. Except they’re the ones with the captive audience right now. Winning them across you’ve gotta offer something clearly better, and I’m not sure that’s the same politics you offered before, with more bullshit tuned to their sensibilities. Also many of them well, outright despise you so there’s that. I’d be interested to hear how the likes of DPB who were rather good in this thread of making the case for Harris over Trump on a policy level found attempting that outside of here actually. Assuming they tried. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On March 09 2025 21:06 Excludos wrote: https://www.newsweek.com/insurrection-act-explained-trump-admin-deciding-whether-invoke-1807-law-2041626 Expect to hear a lot more about this in the coming months. This will be Trumps final ascension to total unchecked power. White House spokesperson Kush Desai told Politico in February: "After four years of a lackadaisical approach to border security and immigration, every lever of executive power is now being marshaled to enforce our laws, mass deport criminal illegal immigrants, safeguard our borders, and put American citizens first." What about the four years before that? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44137 Posts
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Legan
Finland398 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44137 Posts
https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/08/us/fired-federal-workers-trump-voters/?dicbo=v2-UXhedRT&hptm=ob_25tp&fbclid=IwY2xjawI6iw9leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHSCU55sI8lIIJYeHHnWmpAWt4vU8p_un5e4fUvv-XVHzPeb4tzB-jsSsrg_aem_stCP-xXzmM3N-w8IWvBAAQ | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24934 Posts
On March 09 2025 23:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Even more Trump voters shocked that Trump took their jobs away, despite literally promising to do so during the election: https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/08/us/fired-federal-workers-trump-voters/?dicbo=v2-UXhedRT&hptm=ob_25tp&fbclid=IwY2xjawI6iw9leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHSCU55sI8lIIJYeHHnWmpAWt4vU8p_un5e4fUvv-XVHzPeb4tzB-jsSsrg_aem_stCP-xXzmM3N-w8IWvBAAQ FAFO. Still, Graugnard said he does not regret voting for Trump. I feel this is somewhat indicative of a wider problem, Trump did what he said he would do, his policies fucked me personally. I still support him. What do there? Incidentally not sure if you saw it before up the page, when I was responding to GH the Third. I thought you did a good job doing nuts and bolts breakdowns on policy here in the election cycle. Did you attempt that in other environments and how did you find the reception? | ||
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farvacola
United States18822 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4729 Posts
On March 10 2025 00:36 WombaT wrote: FAFO. I feel this is somewhat indicative of a wider problem, Trump did what he said he would do, his policies fucked me personally. I still support him. What do there? Incidentally not sure if you saw it before up the page, when I was responding to GH the Third. I thought you did a good job doing nuts and bolts breakdowns on policy here in the election cycle. Did you attempt that in other environments and how did you find the reception? Age of cultism. Trump says kill yourself, better do that because he's got the greater good in mind. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44137 Posts
On March 10 2025 00:36 WombaT wrote: FAFO. I feel this is somewhat indicative of a wider problem, Trump did what he said he would do, his policies fucked me personally. I still support him. What do there? Incidentally not sure if you saw it before up the page, when I was responding to GH the Third. I thought you did a good job doing nuts and bolts breakdowns on policy here in the election cycle. Did you attempt that in other environments and how did you find the reception? Thanks! TL is pretty much the only online forum that I use for real political conversations - I've found that other areas like Reddit and social media generally don't have engaged and good-faith interlocuters who are willing to have a multi-post dialogue. I had had plenty of in-person conversations too, but they were mostly either with reasonable people who already knew they'd vote for Harris (some happily, some begrudgingly), or with people who were completely convinced that Trump and Vance and Musk are God's gifts to the world, yet those MAGA voters couldn't articulate how those three men would improve our country. There were also a few neutral / on-the-fence voters that I spoke to (though I don't know how that was still possible in late 2024), and I think I convinced somewhere between 10 and 20 swing state voters to go from "staying home on Election Day" to "voting for Harris". For whatever that was worth. And I don't think there's anything left to be done for Trump supporters who actively try to get their faces ripped off by the leopards that they voted for. This election has left me extremely disillusioned and depressed - there are no more excuses available for half of the voters. In my eyes, they've gone from being uninformed victims to being malicious saboteurs. I applied Hanlon's Razor for the 2016 election, and even for the 2020 election, but enough is enough. I'm so emotionally and mentally drained from listening and understanding and empathizing and communicating and approaching them Socratically and humbly and sincerely. I also appreciate your responses to some of GH's/TH's "Takeaways on Why Democrats Have a Cultural Disconnect with the Working Class" points, because that list was just stupid. | ||
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