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United States42685 Posts
On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral.
They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is.
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On November 06 2024 18:29 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. Exactly. Reality exists. Not everything is just based on how people feel about a thing.
I accept that reality exists.
Maybe in the cutest little closed systems like tautologies or axiomatic formalized systems (mathematics, philosophy with certain priors) that can be sectioned off and tested....and even THEN we often find out we were missing nuance or detail.
I think it's absolutely unhinged to think that you, me, or anyone knows or sees reality correctly.
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I for one am glad Trump won...
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On November 06 2024 18:36 Uldridge wrote:
A surprising amount of things are based on how people feel about a thing. Weird how that works. Even science.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? Are you talking about the scientific process or how non-scientists feel about science?
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On November 06 2024 18:44 L_Master wrote:
I accept that reality exists.
Maybe in the cutest little closed systems like tautologies or axiomatic formalized systems (mathematics, philosophy with certain priors) that can be sectioned off and tested....and even THEN we often find out we were missing nuance or detail.
I think it's absolutely unhinged to think that you, me, or anyone knows or sees reality correctly.
It is not hard to argue that the man that said that "all Mexicans are rapists" is on the "more racist" side of the scale.
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Norway28665 Posts
I think guns were hardly a factor for neither side. Immigration was a factor, the economy was a big factor, abortion was a big factor for women, guns hardly made a blip.
We need to see a breakdown of demographics we can really make conclusions here. My feeling is that Trump has done a fantastic job reaching young men (maybe that's why he's been dancing to YMCA all the time), and that this group has actually decided to show up and vote. We might bemoan this group as irrational (lacking concern for the environment makes sense for the 80-year olds, not for the 20 year olds), but my impression is that there's a strong trend, everywhere, that this group largely feels alienated by leftists everywhere.
And from having interacted rather extensively with this group for the past year and a half, small subsets absolutely but also groups that are probably quite representative, a, if not the biggest part of their reason for leaning right, seems to be related to something like.. a perception that society has become too 'sensitive'. Whether it's right or not, a big subset of this group reports that they are afraid to really say what they mean - that they're always walking on eggshells (when not in their purely male groups). Essentially, being allowed to live their lives without being told what the right thing to do or think is, seems like a hugely important issue for them. Whether this is about immigration, opinions on trans people
From that perspective, it's not at all weird to see them abandon a left side somewhat attached to branding people as racists or -phobes for a Trump whose deviance from normal, acceptable behavior makes their unacceptable behavior look perfectly normal in comparison.
Like, I honestly don't think it's a policy issue. Maybe immigration, to some degree, but mostly it's all about messaging. They think Trump is funny, and they think he makes it more possible for them to just be themselves without interference.
For reference, I had a 30 minute lecture on Trump for one of my classes - all guys wanting to be carpenters. I was highly critical of him as a person. The class applauded at the end, didn't question or disagree with anything I had said, laughed and shook their heads in disbelief when I showed the clip of him sitting next to Ivanka saying he'd date her if she wasn't his daughter. And then one week later, 80% said they'd vote for him. Part of their reasoning was that he's hilarious, but the most important is that at least he's not belitteling them - and also, that they get way more exposure to him. Kamala not doing Rogan seems like a pretty huge mistake tbh.
On policy, democrats have a bunch of winning issues. My Norwegian students - who go Trump - are non-religious, think republicans are fucking insane on guns and abortion, and largely enjoy Norwegian social democracy even if taxes are a big high for their liking. Immigration is the one policy issue where they probably agree more with republicans. Where I'm not sure, however, is how to find a messaging that actually reaches these young men whose views have been colored/tainted by spending most of their lives on social media without alienating women who have been exposed to and internalized an entirely different narrative. Definitely seems tricky.
(Note that this is more explaining why Norwegian men aged 18-29 heavily lean Trump and some might not be applicable for the US, but I honestly think this group has a whole lot in common with American men in the same age)
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United States42685 Posts
On November 06 2024 18:46 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:44 L_Master wrote:
I accept that reality exists.
Maybe in the cutest little closed systems like tautologies or axiomatic formalized systems (mathematics, philosophy with certain priors) that can be sectioned off and tested....and even THEN we often find out we were missing nuance or detail.
I think it's absolutely unhinged to think that you, me, or anyone knows or sees reality correctly. It is not hard to argue that the man that said that "all Mexicans are rapists" is on the "more racist" side of the scale.
In fairness he also clarified that American citizens who are born in America but of Hispanic descent are also Mexicans.
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On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is.
Ah! The superior Kwark!
So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb.
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United States42685 Posts
On November 06 2024 18:50 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
It's honestly not that shocking.
This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen.
This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is. Ah! The superior Kwark! So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb.
I don't need to. I didn't even position myself as superior to you, that goes without saying.
You're the one who brought up that GH is smart and you're not. You just brought it up in some weird way as if you thought it wasn't the case. I clarified that yes, that is the case, without any reference to myself at all.
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On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral.
Dude, it has nothing to do with me, hence the "objectively".
lmao @ "your party". No my sweet summer child, Democrats were saying literally the same thing about me earlier today.
If there's something you both agree on it's the pompousness of those that refused to vote for either of those dipshits.
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On November 06 2024 18:45 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:36 Uldridge wrote:
A surprising amount of things are based on how people feel about a thing. Weird how that works. Even science.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? Are you talking about the scientific process or how non-scientists feel about science?
A million little things that all add up to "feels" being influential. What you're naturally interested in, what your natural incentives are based on your moral tuning, what work you gravitate to, what the incentives are in your environment based on all those factors in others, etc. I'm sure hundreds, thousands, or more small little things go into this, all having very tiny influences.
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Dear America,
Fuck you
Signed,
The rest of the world
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On November 06 2024 18:53 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:50 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:
[quote]
100%.
Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added.
Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want.
Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and....
you get tonight.
I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is. Ah! The superior Kwark! So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb. I don't need to. I didn't even position myself as superior to you, that goes without saying. You're the one who brought up that GH is smart and you're not. You just brought it up in some weird way as if you thought it wasn't the case. I clarified that yes, that is the case, without any reference to myself at all.
That sweet dopamine
On November 06 2024 18:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. Dude, it has nothing to do with me, hence the "objectively". lmao @ "your party". No my sweet summer child, Democrats were saying literally the same thing about me earlier today. If there's something you both agree on it's the pompousness of those that refused to vote for either of those dipshits.
Ah, I thought you were like a dem strategists or campaign organizer or something. My bad on that assumption.
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On November 06 2024 18:54 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:45 EnDeR_ wrote:On November 06 2024 18:36 Uldridge wrote:
A surprising amount of things are based on how people feel about a thing. Weird how that works. Even science.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? Are you talking about the scientific process or how non-scientists feel about science? A million little things that all add up to "feels" being influential. What you're naturally interested in, what your natural incentives are based on your moral tuning, what work you gravitate to, what the incentives are in your environment based on all those factors in others, etc. I'm sure hundreds, thousands, or more small little things go into this, all having very tiny influences.
The reason I'm asking for clarification is because none of that is relevant to the scientific method. It would be relevant to someone applying the scientific method incorrectly, but that's a different issue.
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On November 06 2024 18:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think guns were hardly a factor for neither side. Immigration was a factor, the economy was a big factor, abortion was a big factor for women, guns hardly made a blip.
We need to see a breakdown of demographics we can really make conclusions here. My feeling is that Trump has done a fantastic job reaching young men (maybe that's why he's been dancing to YMCA all the time), and that this group has actually decided to show up and vote. We might bemoan this group as irrational (lacking concern for the environment makes sense for the 80-year olds, not for the 20 year olds), but my impression is that there's a strong trend, everywhere, that this group largely feels alienated by leftists everywhere.
And from having interacted rather extensively with this group for the past year and a half, small subsets absolutely but also groups that are probably quite representative, a, if not the biggest part of their reason for leaning right, seems to be related to something like.. a perception that society has become too 'sensitive'. Whether it's right or not, a big subset of this group reports that they are afraid to really say what they mean - that they're always walking on eggshells (when not in their purely male groups). Essentially, being allowed to live their lives without being told what the right thing to do or think is, seems like a hugely important issue for them. Whether this is about immigration, opinions on trans people
From that perspective, it's not at all weird to see them abandon a left side somewhat attached to branding people as racists or -phobes for a Trump whose deviance from normal, acceptable behavior makes their unacceptable behavior look perfectly normal in comparison.
Like, I honestly don't think it's a policy issue. Maybe immigration, to some degree, but mostly it's all about messaging. They think Trump is funny, and they think he makes it more possible for them to just be themselves without interference.
For reference, I had a 30 minute lecture on Trump for one of my classes - all guys wanting to be carpenters. I was highly critical of him as a person. The class applauded at the end, didn't question or disagree with anything I had said, laughed and shook their heads in disbelief when I showed the clip of him sitting next to Ivanka saying he'd date her if she wasn't his daughter. And then one week later, 80% said they'd vote for him. Part of their reasoning was that he's hilarious, but the most important is that at least he's not belitteling them - and also, that they get way more exposure to him. Kamala not doing Rogan seems like a pretty huge mistake tbh.
On policy, democrats have a bunch of winning issues. My Norwegian students - who go Trump - are non-religious, think republicans are fucking insane on guns and abortion, and largely enjoy Norwegian social democracy even if taxes are a big high for their liking. Immigration is the one policy issue where they probably agree more with republicans. Where I'm not sure, however, is how to find a messaging that actually reaches these young men whose views have been colored/tainted by spending most of their lives on social media without alienating women who have been exposed to and internalized an entirely different narrative. Definitely seems tricky.
(Note that this is more explaining why Norwegian men aged 18-29 heavily lean Trump and some might not be applicable for the US, but I honestly think this group has a whole lot in common with American men in the same age)
I agree but I’m also left wondering if 30 minute anti-Trump lectures are typical in Norwegian schools
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Northern Ireland25321 Posts
On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror. To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there.
And some, I assume, are good people.
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despite the failed assassination attempts am i the only one who thinks there will be more? i seriously think we will see trump dead before the end of his term. not pleading for it, just an honest opinion
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On November 06 2024 19:09 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:54 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:45 EnDeR_ wrote:On November 06 2024 18:36 Uldridge wrote:
A surprising amount of things are based on how people feel about a thing. Weird how that works. Even science.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? Are you talking about the scientific process or how non-scientists feel about science? A million little things that all add up to "feels" being influential. What you're naturally interested in, what your natural incentives are based on your moral tuning, what work you gravitate to, what the incentives are in your environment based on all those factors in others, etc. I'm sure hundreds, thousands, or more small little things go into this, all having very tiny influences. The reason I'm asking for clarification is because none of that is relevant to the scientific method. It would be relevant to someone applying the scientific method incorrectly, but that's a different issue.
I think he is using "science" here to mean something like "the body of knowledge produced by formalized academic processes", but science is a bit ambiguous depending on who you are talking to.
If it means "application of the scientific method" then it still holds, but not as strongly. But all those things will impact your application of the method and especially your conclusion you draw from applying the method (which routinely become things that are communicated to the public or used to base other experiments/papers on)
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On November 06 2024 18:50 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
It's honestly not that shocking.
This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen.
This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is. Ah! The superior Kwark! So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb.
Hey, you voted for what you thought was the right choice - we accept that and you're unlikely to hear Democrats claim election fraud for the next 4 years and you also won't see them facilitate an insurrection, I know, funny, right?
And while the concept of actions having consequences might not be very popular among your voter group, in general when you do not-so-smart things you should expect to be called out for that - it just seems that you guys seem to have lost the low-bar somewhere along the way.
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On November 06 2024 19:12 evilfatsh1t wrote:
despite the failed assassination attempts am i the only one who thinks there will be more? i seriously think we will see trump dead before the end of his term. not pleading for it, just an honest opinion
The Supreme Court gave Biden the greenlight, he's just got to drive through the intersection. Or he could step down and let Harris take the wheel.
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EPT
