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On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights.
If you have time, I'd be interested in some elaboration on that. Not sure I grasp yet what you mean by policy. Just more of a focus on logic/reasoning/specific actions they will take? Or something else?
I'd love to see a leftwing party that went in a smaller government, dropped DEI/race/identity stuff, credentialism, and went that sort of direction.
But then again, I have bonkers views. Some issues I'm hanging out with solid left guys, other issues I'm with the far right on.
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When I was going to sleep last night, there were no results yet. I woke up to a different, much more volatile world.
For me, it's all about US foreign policy and how it shapes the world. Let's see where Trump takes us. I have a fear that post WWII security architecture (which was already shaking) might crumble.
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On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights.
Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love:
On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there.
Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful".
No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others.
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On November 06 2024 17:53 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. If you have time, I'd be interested in some elaboration on that. Not sure I grasp yet what you mean by policy. Just more of a focus on logic/reasoning/specific actions they will take? Or something else? I'd love to see a leftwing party that went in a smaller government, dropped DEI/race/identity stuff, credentialism, and went that sort of direction. But then again, I have bonkers views. Some issues I'm hanging out with solid left guys, other issues I'm with the far right on.
Democrats need to focus on what gets them elected. Workers' issues. They've always had their most success when they are the party of labor, and helping the impoverished. That means ALL of the impoverished not just the ones in the cities.
No more social issues pandering, no more guns pandering. It doesn't work, it's not popular and it's fucking distracting. Go back to being the party about workers.
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On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror. To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there.
I am not terrified. Americans are loud, direct, and rude. Americans are not evil.
I moved from Canada to the USA 9 years ago. Best move I ever made. Canada's most ambitious and hardest working continue to flock to the USA in greater numbers than ever.
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/the-best-and-brightest-don-t-want-to-stay-in-canada-i-should-know-i/article_293fc844-3d3e-11ef-8162-5358e7d17a26.html
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On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others.
There are thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry.
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The US is just so completely lost.
I hope this will lead to europe getting our shit together and building a better world, less reliant on the idiocracy across the atlantic.
But realistically, we will just get the same shit in a few years. It has already been happening here, and with this victory of insanity it will likely only increase. Apparently the most idiotic of rightwing people have just figured out a brainhack in some way, and that is just the world we live in now.
I just don't know how to deal with this. Why are large parts of humanity like this? A two decades ago it looked as if we were making huge strides towards a better future. Now...not so much.
A sad day for humanity.
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On November 06 2024 17:59 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:53 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. If you have time, I'd be interested in some elaboration on that. Not sure I grasp yet what you mean by policy. Just more of a focus on logic/reasoning/specific actions they will take? Or something else? I'd love to see a leftwing party that went in a smaller government, dropped DEI/race/identity stuff, credentialism, and went that sort of direction. But then again, I have bonkers views. Some issues I'm hanging out with solid left guys, other issues I'm with the far right on. Democrats need to focus on what gets them elected. Workers' issues. They've always had their most success when they are the party of labor, and helping the impoverished. That means ALL of the impoverished not just the ones in the cities. No more social issues pandering, no more guns pandering. It doesn't work, it's not popular and it's fucking distracting. Go back to being the party about workers.
I can believe that would work.
Just like the conservatives need to concede desperately on abortion, I think the left would be well to give up on the gun stuff.
My hunch is the challenge they face with the impoverished is *who* those impoverished tend to be, although to be fair you did say not just the ones in the cities and if they could build momentum as helping the rural and industrial working poor that might be their way out of the "the poor are most heavily blocks, followed by hispanics, then whites, and rarely asians" dilemma, that begins to frustrate both middle class and working white men when they perceive they are being hit with more taxes and restrictions to help a bunch of immigrants.
And they have the challenge of doing this in a non burdensome tax way, which is difficult with government already at this size and a rampaging deficit. If they could trim down a bunch of fat, ax a good number of regulations or programs that cause bloat, maybe they could find a way to do so without being an onerous burden.
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Canada11371 Posts
I don't know. Sometimes I think it's timing. Inflation only just got down to 2%. America recovered as well as anyone else, but didn't crawl out of the hole fast enough for this election. Or at least it wasn't long enough for enough people to feel like they recovered. Sometimes you get really lucky and get voted out just before the Great Depression like our own PM William Lyon Mackenzie King but then sat out the Depression in Opposition only to then ride into victory after victory once the Depression starts abating. Obama got hit with the Great Recession, but right at the beginning of his term but I guess things stabilized enough that he got his second term.
Also, I think the false electors and all that is and ought to be career-endingly bad. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, never touch a government position ever again. However, it's not immediately obvious on why it was so bad, and so you need a civics lesson just to understand how egregious it was... and so it gets swept under the rug instead of being warning clarion that bad things are happening to the republic. Instead the issues gets diverted to hyperventilating Democrats and hurt feelings over warnings of rising authoritarianism distorts into claims that Democrats are the ones responsible for Trump's would be assassins and Democrats are the ones that need to clean up their language despite the endless bile that pours out of Trump's mouth.
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On November 06 2024 18:09 Falling wrote:
I don't know. Sometimes I think it's timing. Inflation only just got down to 2%. America recovered as well as anyone else, but didn't crawl out of the hole fast enough for this election. Or at least it wasn't long enough for enough people to feel like they recovered. Sometimes you get really lucky and get voted out just before the Great Depression like our own PM William Lyon Mackenzie King but then sat out the Depression in Opposition only to then ride into victory after victory once the Depression starts abating. Obama got hit with the Great Recession, but right at the beginning of his term but I guess things stabilized enough that he got his second term.
Which is why Joe Biden should never have sought re election in the first place.
Nominating someone else PROPERLY would have let voters know that Democrats recognize that things arent great for people economically and that they have some responsibility for it, and then spend the entire Presidential Election from the beginning starting in 2023 running a strong economic message.
Instead we got almost no message at all from anyone in the Biden camp until AFTER he dropped out, and then the only messaging we got was that Trump is old and he sucks and Kamala is young and diverse. We only had 5 months for her to sell any kind of policy messaging and that would have been a tall order for an experienced and better candidate than her and she just didn't pull it off.
The entire election was managed poorly by the Democrats.
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On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry.
There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
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On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong.
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On July 14 2024 22:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2024 18:32 Gorsameth wrote:
Question, how many people think that today may well of decided the outcome of the election?
"Trump survives assassination attempt" is going to be a hell of a storyline for his campaign to run for the next 4 months. If i had some thousands of spare money i would bet everything on Trump with around 1.5 odds.
I didnt 
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On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong.
Exactly. Reality exists. Not everything is just based on how people feel about a thing.
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On November 06 2024 18:09 Falling wrote:
I don't know. Sometimes I think it's timing. Inflation only just got down to 2%. America recovered as well as anyone else, but didn't crawl out of the hole fast enough for this election. Or at least it wasn't long enough for enough people to feel like they recovered. Sometimes you get really lucky and get voted out just before the Great Depression like our own PM William Lyon Mackenzie King but then sat out the Depression in Opposition only to then ride into victory after victory once the Depression starts abating. Obama got hit with the Great Recession, but right at the beginning of his term but I guess things stabilized enough that he got his second term.
I'm not convinced inflation is at 2%.
A big thing that's happening, that I think the left is blind to, is how absolutely whack the academy has become. It's one of the reasons I'm skeptical this left/right divide can be fixed.
Two totally diverging sets of information about how the world works.
More left/mainstream folks would tend to quote things like CPI or a few other measures. Problem is, there is a (growing) large contingent of people who reject those figures now, almost out of hand. It's driven by two things that I can pinpoint:
1) Accumulation of instances of overt manipulation or clever statistical slights of hand. The net experience is "government says the CPI has only been 4%, but I've seen prices increase by 80%" that then causes them to develop skepticism
2) "Science as a Religion" type of mindset. If someone points out the kinds of things mentioned in #1, they are often met with things like being called a conspiracy theorist, unhinged, told to essentially not trust their eyes, or worst of all "you're not a scientist, you're not qualified to comment".
From what I've seen #2 tends to REALLY radicalize people towards conspiracy, and my guess is that's because it doesn't present as listening to them and understanding their concerns. It's an attitude of "lol no, just trust us bro and btw you're kinda retarded for even thinking that".
In my case, I'm mildly skeptical based on what I'm seeing the CPI is back to 2%. But, let's grant that's spot on. Even then, there is no real "recovery" because well...the damage is done. Prices for everything went up between 50-100% for most day to day items. Wages did not. All that extra value was either captured via taxes (inflate the currency and then you hit higher tax brackets and can siphon more wages) or, because most people aren't good with money, didn't flee to the places where it would have benefited from the inflation, and instead flowed into useless places like savings accounts or into outright betting like with edge case crypto or sports betting.
Which meant a massive transfer of wealth from the lower and middle classes to the government, and to anyone who was smart and disciplined and informed.
I don't know if there would be a recovery from this inflation unless wages increased massively without much change in the price of anything else
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On November 06 2024 18:05 Simberto wrote:
The US is just so completely lost.
I hope this will lead to europe getting our shit together and building a better world, less reliant on the idiocracy across the atlantic.
But realistically, we will just get the same shit in a few years. It has already been happening here, and with this victory of insanity it will likely only increase. Apparently the most idiotic of rightwing people have just figured out a brainhack in some way, and that is just the world we live in now.
I just don't know how to deal with this. Why are large parts of humanity like this? A two decades ago it looked as if we were making huge strides towards a better future. Now...not so much.
A sad day for humanity.
Your AfD is on the rise. Our Vlaams Belang js on the rise. Populism and polarization is firmly on the tise.
You better start understanding where they're coming from. Been saying that since 2016, but everyone keeps saying people on the right are morons and delusional. Whatever the truth is, they are people and they have voting power and disenfranchising them with your rhetoric will only tear your social fabric apart. I try to refrain from this kind of rhetoric like you (not just you specificallly Simberto), because I deem it highly corrosive. Keep thinking your side is the best for all humans (which it very well might be, might I add), but that's completely missing the point, and probably a lot of nuance that's at play here. As long as none of you truly understand what makes Trump so favorable, it will bite you in the ass over and over.
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United States43251 Posts
On November 06 2024 18:29 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. Exactly. Reality exists. Not everything is just based on how people feel about a thing.
The entire of Trump's platform is built on a refusal to accept this. The reality is that Trump appears a great many times on Epstein's flight logs, made multiple trips to his island, joked about how he, like Epstein, liked young girls, and was a close friend of his. But the feeling is that Hillary Clinton is making pizzas out of children and only Trump will stop her. Ultimately who can really say.
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On November 06 2024 18:29 Simberto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. Exactly. Reality exists. Not everything is just based on how people feel about a thing.
A surprising amount of things are based on how people feel about a thing. Weird how that works. Even science.
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On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong.
And......
You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance.
"I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not"
You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right.
I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral.
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EPT
