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United States42685 Posts
On November 06 2024 19:14 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:50 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:
[quote]
100%.
Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added.
Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want.
Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and....
you get tonight.
I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is. Ah! The superior Kwark! So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb. Hey, you voted for what you thought was the right choice - we accept that and you're unlikely to hear Democrats claim election fraud for the next 4 years and you also won't see them facilitate an insurrection, I know, funny, right? And while the concept of actions having consequences might not be very popular among your voter group, in general when you do not-so-smart things you should expect to be called out for that - it just seems that you guys seem to have lost the low-bar somewhere along the way.
But is it possible that the candidate who thought a balance of trade deficit was a check that the president mails to China each year was actually the smart guy and all the people who were calling him idiots were actually wrong?
We can't really know so it's actually entirely subjective whether one side is populated by idiots and people so stupid they can't tell when they're listening to an idiot.
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On November 06 2024 19:13 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 19:09 EnDeR_ wrote:On November 06 2024 18:54 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:45 EnDeR_ wrote:On November 06 2024 18:36 Uldridge wrote:
A surprising amount of things are based on how people feel about a thing. Weird how that works. Even science.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? Are you talking about the scientific process or how non-scientists feel about science? A million little things that all add up to "feels" being influential. What you're naturally interested in, what your natural incentives are based on your moral tuning, what work you gravitate to, what the incentives are in your environment based on all those factors in others, etc. I'm sure hundreds, thousands, or more small little things go into this, all having very tiny influences. The reason I'm asking for clarification is because none of that is relevant to the scientific method. It would be relevant to someone applying the scientific method incorrectly, but that's a different issue. I think he is using "science" here to mean something like "the body of knowledge produced by formalized academic processes", but science is a bit ambiguous depending on who you are talking to. If it means "application of the scientific method" then it still holds, but not as strongly. But all those things will impact your application of the method and especially your conclusion you draw from applying the method (which routinely become things that are communicated to the public or used to base other experiments/papers on)
I am genuinely confused about what other meaning 'science' can have other than 'what you get when you use the scientific method'.
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On November 06 2024 17:12 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 17:00 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 16:56 Taelshin wrote:
@wombat relax bud dude was president for four years already, You'll survive. Survive sure but I’ve another 4 years listening to the biggest cunt on the planet rambling on, truly a thrilling prospect How does anyone hate Trump this much? I can get someone that thinks he crass, or that he is an attention whore, or an asshole, or has a variety of character defects.... at the same time he also is unusually humble for someone of his net worth showing genuine interest in common men, authentic, and more than anything he's a great troll that knows how to entertain.
Because, despite his win, he's still a racist, sexist, rapist, and felon? And definitely not humble lol. Those things aren't going to change.
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On November 06 2024 18:35 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:05 Simberto wrote:
The US is just so completely lost.
I hope this will lead to europe getting our shit together and building a better world, less reliant on the idiocracy across the atlantic.
But realistically, we will just get the same shit in a few years. It has already been happening here, and with this victory of insanity it will likely only increase. Apparently the most idiotic of rightwing people have just figured out a brainhack in some way, and that is just the world we live in now.
I just don't know how to deal with this. Why are large parts of humanity like this? A two decades ago it looked as if we were making huge strides towards a better future. Now...not so much.
A sad day for humanity. Your AfD is on the rise. Our Vlaams Belang js on the rise. Populism and polarization is firmly on the tise. You better start understanding where they're coming from. Been saying that since 2016, but everyone keeps saying people on the right are morons and delusional. Whatever the truth is, they are people and they have voting power and disenfranchising them with your rhetoric will only tear your social fabric apart. I try to refrain from this kind of rhetoric like you (not just you specificallly Simberto), because I deem it highly corrosive. Keep thinking your side is the best for all humans (which it very well might be, might I add), but that's completely missing the point, and probably a lot of nuance that's at play here. As long as none of you truly understand what makes Trump so favorable, it will bite you in the ass over and over.
Yeah, i know. But i am mostly just done.
The rightwing people make it very, very hard to try to deal with them, meet them in the middle and try to get them back into reality, because they all the things they do and say they want are just so bad. For them, for society, for everything. And they are so very obnoxious about it, too.
It is also annoying that apparently all of the impetus is on me and people like me to get the people who plainly believe just insane bullshit back, while those same people shout hateful shit all day. And the solution is supposed to be that i have to be very empathic and nice to them. And i have been trying. For a decade or more. But it just gets worse and worse. More insanity, more removal from reality, more rightwing hate, more conspiracy bullshit.
It is very hard not to treat people like morons when they act like morons. It is hard to pretend people are adults when they clearly don't act that way themselves.
I am just exhausted.
I am of the opinion that a lot of the problems could be solved by doing some radical left stuff, but that ain't happening either. I think some of the reason that people drift towards insanity is that they feel lost economically. Rightwing conspiracies give them a nice, easy answer as to why that is, so they drift further and further in that direction.
To prevent this, we need some good oldschool Klassenkampf. Redistribution of wealth, from the ultra rich to the poor, so that the poor don't feel the need to fight other poor over scraps from the rich mans table. But that is clearly not happening, if anything we are moving further and further away from that idea.
So, i guess i will mostly just give up. Leave politics to the insane, try my best to survive. Hope that the insanity eventually just passes.
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On November 06 2024 19:14 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:50 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:
[quote]
100%.
Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added.
Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want.
Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and....
you get tonight.
I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is. Ah! The superior Kwark! So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb. Hey, you voted for what you thought was the right choice - we accept that and you're unlikely to hear Democrats claim election fraud for the next 4 years and you also won't see them facilitate an insurrection, I know, funny, right? And while the concept of actions having consequences might not be very popular among your voter group, in general when you do not-so-smart things you should expect to be called out for that - it just seems that you guys seem to have lost the low-bar somewhere along the way.
Elections really bring out the shit posting.
Too many assumptions here, so I'll just go with:
I'm not seeing the humor, but it will be nice that we won't have to hear any obnoxious and painful conservative whining about 'stolen elections'.
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On November 06 2024 19:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 19:14 Creager wrote:On November 06 2024 18:50 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues.
There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is. Ah! The superior Kwark! So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb. Hey, you voted for what you thought was the right choice - we accept that and you're unlikely to hear Democrats claim election fraud for the next 4 years and you also won't see them facilitate an insurrection, I know, funny, right? And while the concept of actions having consequences might not be very popular among your voter group, in general when you do not-so-smart things you should expect to be called out for that - it just seems that you guys seem to have lost the low-bar somewhere along the way. But is it possible that the candidate who thought a balance of trade deficit was a check that the president mails to China each year was actually the smart guy and all the people who were calling him idiots were actually wrong? We can't really know so it's actually entirely subjective whether one side is populated by idiots and people so stupid they can't tell when they're listening to an idiot.
Well. hypthetically possible? Sure, but then I'm also betting on that monkey writing Hamlet by pure chance.
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United States42685 Posts
On November 06 2024 19:22 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 19:18 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 19:14 Creager wrote:On November 06 2024 18:50 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:
[quote]
Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love:
[quote]
Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful".
No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others.
There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is. Ah! The superior Kwark! So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb. Hey, you voted for what you thought was the right choice - we accept that and you're unlikely to hear Democrats claim election fraud for the next 4 years and you also won't see them facilitate an insurrection, I know, funny, right? And while the concept of actions having consequences might not be very popular among your voter group, in general when you do not-so-smart things you should expect to be called out for that - it just seems that you guys seem to have lost the low-bar somewhere along the way. But is it possible that the candidate who thought a balance of trade deficit was a check that the president mails to China each year was actually the smart guy and all the people who were calling him idiots were actually wrong? We can't really know so it's actually entirely subjective whether one side is populated by idiots and people so stupid they can't tell when they're listening to an idiot. Well. hypthetically possible? Sure, but then I'm also betting on that monkey writing Hamlet by pure chance.
Sure, but isn't it possible the monkey that is throwing shit at everything is a strong and stable genius and should be put in charge and that anyone who questions whether the shit throwing monkey should be in charge is an elitist?
As a regular joe I just feel like the monkey speaks to me and doesn't make me feel bad about my own traits.
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best of luck to Trump with the deportations and extermination of gay race communism
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Norway28665 Posts
On November 06 2024 19:10 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think guns were hardly a factor for neither side. Immigration was a factor, the economy was a big factor, abortion was a big factor for women, guns hardly made a blip.
We need to see a breakdown of demographics we can really make conclusions here. My feeling is that Trump has done a fantastic job reaching young men (maybe that's why he's been dancing to YMCA all the time), and that this group has actually decided to show up and vote. We might bemoan this group as irrational (lacking concern for the environment makes sense for the 80-year olds, not for the 20 year olds), but my impression is that there's a strong trend, everywhere, that this group largely feels alienated by leftists everywhere.
And from having interacted rather extensively with this group for the past year and a half, small subsets absolutely but also groups that are probably quite representative, a, if not the biggest part of their reason for leaning right, seems to be related to something like.. a perception that society has become too 'sensitive'. Whether it's right or not, a big subset of this group reports that they are afraid to really say what they mean - that they're always walking on eggshells (when not in their purely male groups). Essentially, being allowed to live their lives without being told what the right thing to do or think is, seems like a hugely important issue for them. Whether this is about immigration, opinions on trans people
From that perspective, it's not at all weird to see them abandon a left side somewhat attached to branding people as racists or -phobes for a Trump whose deviance from normal, acceptable behavior makes their unacceptable behavior look perfectly normal in comparison.
Like, I honestly don't think it's a policy issue. Maybe immigration, to some degree, but mostly it's all about messaging. They think Trump is funny, and they think he makes it more possible for them to just be themselves without interference.
For reference, I had a 30 minute lecture on Trump for one of my classes - all guys wanting to be carpenters. I was highly critical of him as a person. The class applauded at the end, didn't question or disagree with anything I had said, laughed and shook their heads in disbelief when I showed the clip of him sitting next to Ivanka saying he'd date her if she wasn't his daughter. And then one week later, 80% said they'd vote for him. Part of their reasoning was that he's hilarious, but the most important is that at least he's not belitteling them - and also, that they get way more exposure to him. Kamala not doing Rogan seems like a pretty huge mistake tbh.
On policy, democrats have a bunch of winning issues. My Norwegian students - who go Trump - are non-religious, think republicans are fucking insane on guns and abortion, and largely enjoy Norwegian social democracy even if taxes are a big high for their liking. Immigration is the one policy issue where they probably agree more with republicans. Where I'm not sure, however, is how to find a messaging that actually reaches these young men whose views have been colored/tainted by spending most of their lives on social media without alienating women who have been exposed to and internalized an entirely different narrative. Definitely seems tricky.
(Note that this is more explaining why Norwegian men aged 18-29 heavily lean Trump and some might not be applicable for the US, but I honestly think this group has a whole lot in common with American men in the same age) I agree but I’m also left wondering if 30 minute anti-Trump lectures are typical in Norwegian schools
Teachers in Norway who teach either English or sociology (I happen to do both) do tend to give quite a bit of attention to the american election, this is even specified in the respective curriculums of those subjects. How this happens is much to the discretion of the teacher in question - but there's no question that Norwegian teachers overwhelmingly lean anti-Trump.
Tbh - I was (and am) very cautious not to tell them what they should think in terms of policy, and this was something I specified. It was more in terms of challenging the 'Trump-the truth-teller'-narrative. And they accepted the truth of his dishonesty, yet it didn't move the needle. It was also a response to having interacted with them for a couple months. Honestly - teaching politics is a difficult balance - I do try to be as objective as I can be even accepting I have my own inherent biases - but objectively, Trump is a liar. This I communicate. However, I don't say that building a wall is stupid or anything of that sort.
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On November 06 2024 19:26 SEB2610 wrote:
best of luck to Trump with the deportations and extermination of gay race communism
tfw you realize this isn't sarcastic.
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Northern Ireland25320 Posts
On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 17:57 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:41 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 17:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 17:24 Dante08 wrote:
The most shocking thing is Trump is likely to win the popular vote which is CRAZY It's honestly not that shocking. This is what the cynical side of me knew was going to happen. This election isn't so much an affirmation of Trump it's a rejection of the Democrats. Of their messaging, of their candidates and of their politics. 100%. Pretty much every person I knew isn't especially pro Trump. They are simply disgusted, angry, or afraid of the democrats DEI policies, the rapid shift in demographics, the monetary policy (admittedly R isn't a ton better here, but perception skews that way), and the general bureaucracy and onerous endless regulations that are added. Also very strong opposition to the moral posture that liberals always take. Almost impossible to overstate that. Everyone I know in person, unless ardent left, despises this. The ardent left folk almost always take these moral framings "you're a horrible racist", "you hate trans people", "you're a misogynist", "you don't care about women", etc. when you don't agree or do what they want. Put all that together with Harris as a candidate and.... you get tonight. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it. Democrats need to focus on fucking POLICY. Stop getting into these shit slinging contests with the Republicans about wedge issues. There's A REASON the Republicans want politics to be about that. They win those fights. Poster below perfectly captures what I'm getting at that the solid majority of regular people from moderate left to right that I know in person absolutely love: On November 06 2024 17:50 Ciaus237 wrote:
Nah, he is the perfect representative of the American people. The largest single block of them anyway. The American identity has metastasized into him: an openly racist and misogynistic dipshit with a 4th grade reading level who has no values outside of his own money (about which he lies) and power. Well done America, you've won democracy. You've found your mirror.
To the rest of you who have, by now, realised just how many of these fuckers you share a country with, my condolences. Genuinely, it is terrifying from here, can't imagine what it is like there. Just pure moral framing from this guy. "These people don't agree with me so they are bad and stupid and evil and shameful". No logic. No coherent arguments. Just arbitrarily taking some moral highground and then using it to feel superior to others. There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral.
You don’t have to be smart as fuck, or even particularly bright, or indeed much above basic sentience to observe some of this stuff
It’s not even a recent trend, people just need to own their own decisions.
This ‘I was drawn to vote for x because people were mean/contemptuous’ I mean sure has some validity but it’s wheeled out every damn time now
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On November 06 2024 18:45 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:36 Uldridge wrote:
A surprising amount of things are based on how people feel about a thing. Weird how that works. Even science.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? Are you talking about the scientific process or how non-scientists feel about science?
I'm talking about the process of how we, as humans - organisms that filter a highly selective part of reality - try to understand reality.
Don't get me wrong, we understand a vast amount already, but it's possible we're limited in understanding only a fraction of it due to our limitations of the brain.
Now, science is a framework that hinges upon the actors being, so to speak, completely objective and truth and reality, or our understanding of that at least, kind of depends on that. Time and time again it has been shown that history, personal and institutional biases, funding etc. get in the way of accurately finding out how things work. People abuse statistics to get more interesting results, replication crisis remains an issue, people try to get funding for potentially futile endeavors because it's trending right now, when other theories that could be as challenging get less because that's how hype and momentum works and humans are not devoid of that.
We can agree on basic facts. We can observe things on our world and we can describe them pretty rigorously. Often times, though, a narrative of reality is created that we adhere to because that's the current hype or does a particular thing in that point in time pretty well, but will then be torn to shreds because it was incomplete or because it was simply wrong. And none of it matters really because at the end of the day all you do as a human is sleep, eat, drink, shit, piss, socialize and if you're lucky fuck. It's a feelings based reality we live in. How much energy do you have today? How hungry are you?
Our scientifically based jnfrastructure we have is nice, but... completely unnecessary. I'm starting to ramble now so I'll see myself out.
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On November 06 2024 19:20 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 18:35 Uldridge wrote:On November 06 2024 18:05 Simberto wrote:
The US is just so completely lost.
I hope this will lead to europe getting our shit together and building a better world, less reliant on the idiocracy across the atlantic.
But realistically, we will just get the same shit in a few years. It has already been happening here, and with this victory of insanity it will likely only increase. Apparently the most idiotic of rightwing people have just figured out a brainhack in some way, and that is just the world we live in now.
I just don't know how to deal with this. Why are large parts of humanity like this? A two decades ago it looked as if we were making huge strides towards a better future. Now...not so much.
A sad day for humanity. Your AfD is on the rise. Our Vlaams Belang js on the rise. Populism and polarization is firmly on the tise. You better start understanding where they're coming from. Been saying that since 2016, but everyone keeps saying people on the right are morons and delusional. Whatever the truth is, they are people and they have voting power and disenfranchising them with your rhetoric will only tear your social fabric apart. I try to refrain from this kind of rhetoric like you (not just you specificallly Simberto), because I deem it highly corrosive. Keep thinking your side is the best for all humans (which it very well might be, might I add), but that's completely missing the point, and probably a lot of nuance that's at play here. As long as none of you truly understand what makes Trump so favorable, it will bite you in the ass over and over. Yeah, i know. But i am mostly just done. The rightwing people make it very, very hard to try to deal with them, meet them in the middle and try to get them back into reality, because they all the things they do and say they want are just so bad. For them, for society, for everything. And they are so very obnoxious about it, too. It is also annoying that apparently all of the impetus is on me and people like me to get the people who plainly believe just insane bullshit back, while those same people shout hateful shit all day. And the solution is supposed to be that i have to be very empathic and nice to them. And i have been trying. For a decade or more. But it just gets worse and worse. More insanity, more removal from reality, more rightwing hate, more conspiracy bullshit. It is very hard not to treat people like morons when they act like morons. It is hard to pretend people are adults when they clearly don't act that way themselves. I am just exhausted. I am of the opinion that a lot of the problems could be solved by doing some radical left stuff, but that ain't happening either. I think some of the reason that people drift towards insanity is that they feel lost economically. Rightwing conspiracies give them a nice, easy answer as to why that is, so they drift further and further in that direction. To prevent this, we need some good oldschool Klassenkampf. Redistribution of wealth, from the ultra rich to the poor, so that the poor don't feel the need to fight other poor over scraps from the rich mans table. But that is clearly not happening, if anything we are moving further and further away from that idea. So, i guess i will mostly just give up. Leave politics to the insane, try my best to survive. Hope that the insanity eventually just passes.
How confident are you in your ability to steelman the conservative position?
Not the stupid mainstream stuff you hear thrown out by Republicans, but rather the sort of case made using concepts from people like Hayek, Sowell, Popper, the federalists, etc.?
If you think they are all absolutely insane, then best can be said is I don't see how their is any "hope" to bring anything together.
I believe there is a lot that goes into this question. And oftentimes I've found you do get absolutely nowhere, and when that happens it's almost always a case of different personalities/incentives creating difference in preferences that don't have much or any common ground, or personality differences (usually low openness in mainline conservatives) that renders them very stuck in whatever their current mode of thought is. They simply don't seem to care for new ideas.
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Now where will this go from here.
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On November 06 2024 19:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 19:22 Creager wrote:On November 06 2024 19:18 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 19:14 Creager wrote:On November 06 2024 18:50 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:42 KwarK wrote:On November 06 2024 18:39 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 18:19 L_Master wrote:On November 06 2024 18:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
There's thousands of posts detailing the extensive history of the racism, misogyny, etc from Trump here. You can rationalize it however you'd like but you're not going to convince anyone not to believe years of their own lying eyes/ears on Trump's bigotry. There are millions of people that think Trump is not a racist, misogynist, or bigot. + Show Spoiler +In response to this it seems you can either:
1) Assume that the only reason these people disagree with you is because they are all bigots/racists/misogynists and you are just outright a superior moral being to them
2) Assume that they have different priors than yourself, different information/facts/experiences that cause them to see Trumps comments as not hateful
a) Consider yourself superior to all the dumb sheep seduced into their shit worldview
b) Consider that they may have an alternate viewpoint that is entirely accurate in their own frame of reference, and
that perhaps you are the one with the wrong information, lenses, or misrepresentative experiences
3) Assume that they have different definitions of those words than you do and either
a) Decide that your definition is superior and correct and they are dumb to have a different one
b) Consider that their definition might have some validity to it as well
Generally, my experience is that people putting out moral high ground comments like Ciaus are doing 1, 2b, 3b...and come across to most normal folk as pretentious and obnoxious.
Most people who are doing 2a/2b type stuff say something like:
"I personally find Trump's comments to be X, Y, or Z because of [reasons] and I think that ends up being a harmful thing because [reasons]".
And they are objectively wrong. And...... You did a 2b. Midwit pure arrogance. "I know better than everybody else because I'm smart AF and you're not" You're a BIG part of why your party got obliterated this election. Normal people are repulsed by this arrogant, self righteous attitude....and you're completely, utterly, beyond all hope blind to how you come across because you're so convinced you're moral and right. I've found nothing, and I mean nothing, more dangerous than a person who thinks they are moral. They are smart. You are not. It's just how it is. Ah! The superior Kwark! So superior he needs to make sure everyone else is put in there place and made to know that they are dumb. Hey, you voted for what you thought was the right choice - we accept that and you're unlikely to hear Democrats claim election fraud for the next 4 years and you also won't see them facilitate an insurrection, I know, funny, right? And while the concept of actions having consequences might not be very popular among your voter group, in general when you do not-so-smart things you should expect to be called out for that - it just seems that you guys seem to have lost the low-bar somewhere along the way. But is it possible that the candidate who thought a balance of trade deficit was a check that the president mails to China each year was actually the smart guy and all the people who were calling him idiots were actually wrong? We can't really know so it's actually entirely subjective whether one side is populated by idiots and people so stupid they can't tell when they're listening to an idiot. Well. hypthetically possible? Sure, but then I'm also betting on that monkey writing Hamlet by pure chance. Sure, but isn't it possible the monkey that is throwing shit at everything is a strong and stable genius and should be put in charge and that anyone who questions whether the shit throwing monkey should be in charge is an elitist? As a regular joe I just feel like the monkey speaks to me and doesn't make me feel bad about my own traits.
When was the last time we had a strong and stable genius as a presidential candidate? That would be a nice change of pace.
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Northern Ireland25320 Posts
On November 06 2024 19:33 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 19:20 Simberto wrote:On November 06 2024 18:35 Uldridge wrote:On November 06 2024 18:05 Simberto wrote:
The US is just so completely lost.
I hope this will lead to europe getting our shit together and building a better world, less reliant on the idiocracy across the atlantic.
But realistically, we will just get the same shit in a few years. It has already been happening here, and with this victory of insanity it will likely only increase. Apparently the most idiotic of rightwing people have just figured out a brainhack in some way, and that is just the world we live in now.
I just don't know how to deal with this. Why are large parts of humanity like this? A two decades ago it looked as if we were making huge strides towards a better future. Now...not so much.
A sad day for humanity. Your AfD is on the rise. Our Vlaams Belang js on the rise. Populism and polarization is firmly on the tise. You better start understanding where they're coming from. Been saying that since 2016, but everyone keeps saying people on the right are morons and delusional. Whatever the truth is, they are people and they have voting power and disenfranchising them with your rhetoric will only tear your social fabric apart. I try to refrain from this kind of rhetoric like you (not just you specificallly Simberto), because I deem it highly corrosive. Keep thinking your side is the best for all humans (which it very well might be, might I add), but that's completely missing the point, and probably a lot of nuance that's at play here. As long as none of you truly understand what makes Trump so favorable, it will bite you in the ass over and over. Yeah, i know. But i am mostly just done. The rightwing people make it very, very hard to try to deal with them, meet them in the middle and try to get them back into reality, because they all the things they do and say they want are just so bad. For them, for society, for everything. And they are so very obnoxious about it, too. It is also annoying that apparently all of the impetus is on me and people like me to get the people who plainly believe just insane bullshit back, while those same people shout hateful shit all day. And the solution is supposed to be that i have to be very empathic and nice to them. And i have been trying. For a decade or more. But it just gets worse and worse. More insanity, more removal from reality, more rightwing hate, more conspiracy bullshit. It is very hard not to treat people like morons when they act like morons. It is hard to pretend people are adults when they clearly don't act that way themselves. I am just exhausted. I am of the opinion that a lot of the problems could be solved by doing some radical left stuff, but that ain't happening either. I think some of the reason that people drift towards insanity is that they feel lost economically. Rightwing conspiracies give them a nice, easy answer as to why that is, so they drift further and further in that direction. To prevent this, we need some good oldschool Klassenkampf. Redistribution of wealth, from the ultra rich to the poor, so that the poor don't feel the need to fight other poor over scraps from the rich mans table. But that is clearly not happening, if anything we are moving further and further away from that idea. So, i guess i will mostly just give up. Leave politics to the insane, try my best to survive. Hope that the insanity eventually just passes. How confident are you in your ability to steelman the conservative position? Not the stupid mainstream stuff you hear thrown out by Republicans, but rather the sort of case made using concepts from people like Hayek, Sowell, Popper, the federalists, etc.? If you think they are all absolutely insane, then best can be said is I don't see how their is any "hope" to bring anything together. I believe there is a lot that goes into this question. And oftentimes I've found you do get absolutely nowhere, and when that happens it's almost always a case of different personalities/incentives creating difference in preferences that don't have much or any common ground, or personality differences (usually low openness in mainline conservatives) that renders them very stuck in whatever their current mode of thought is. They simply don't seem to care for new ideas.
Those names are about as relevant to the MAGA zealots as they are to hardened Communists.
That’s precisely the problem.
It should concern more regular,independent ideologically-based or moderate conservatives too. Do you folks think you’re getting the party back anytime soon?
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not happy about Gaza
I think it's time to annex Westbank for Netanyahu, while Biden is in office this will fall onto the democrats feet, and if they pull any support from gaza, Trump and his zionist-christreturn-nutjobs can rush in and finish the job with more violence.
My take is that inflation drove people up the walls and trump said he is going to change it back, while Harris wasn't "saying the word".
How he is going to do that he never said.. because inflation is thought of a result of monetary policy.. but in todays world it's pure greed.
Package sizes down, prices up. In the EU 80% of the price increase can be found in the companies earnings reports.
With Trump I think the greedflation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedflation will go on and get worse, since his clientel profits.
Profit margins of suppliers and vendros of everday goods exploded, when they cut down
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On November 06 2024 19:29 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 19:26 SEB2610 wrote:
best of luck to Trump with the deportations and extermination of gay race communism
tfw you realize this isn't sarcastic.
Why would it be? By not at least deporting illegals, all you are doing is encouraging more to invade.
As for why the extermination of gay race communism is good, I trust anyone who isnt a dysgenic retard to understand this intuitively.
User was banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland25320 Posts
On November 06 2024 19:43 SEB2610 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 19:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 19:26 SEB2610 wrote:
best of luck to Trump with the deportations and extermination of gay race communism
tfw you realize this isn't sarcastic. Why would it be? By not at least deporting illegals, all you are doing is encouraging more to invade. As for why the extermination of gay race communism is good, I trust anyone who isnt a dysgenic retard to understand this intuitively.
Oh fuck right off
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On November 06 2024 19:39 pmh wrote:
Now where will this go from here.
Harris closed out the campaign calling him a fascist. So I expect tomorrow (this morning for those of you who slept) she will talk about how she looks forward to working with him.
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EPT
