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On June 30 2018 06:45 screamingpalm wrote:
Spoken like a true moderate Dem/Clinton supporter who already knows everything with your fingers in your ears.
This also isn’t a great way to convince anyone of the merits to your arguments.
On an unrelated note:
There is something deeply weird about Kennedy's son being Trump's loan officer at Deutsche Bank for a decade and only finding out about it now. And the Trump administration encouraging the justice to retire on the DL.
http://www.businessinsider.com/anthony-kennedy-son-loaned-president-trump-over-a-billion-dollars-2018-6
Not saying there is some grand conspiracy or anything. I have not reason to believe there is. Just that its that world is to god damn small and the optics of this are bizarre.
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Ever get the feeling some stories will get more coverage than others on certain channels or twitter feeds?
Also P6, yeah, horrible optics, but doubt there is anything there.
User was warned for this post
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On June 30 2018 05:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 05:27 iamthedave wrote:On June 30 2018 05:09 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 05:05 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 05:03 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 05:01 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 04:53 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 04:50 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 04:48 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 04:45 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
They are as democratic as Russia. Yep. And Putin is also a reflection of the Russian people. I'll say the same thing about the Chinese and China. They like their totalitarian leadership with the trappings of quasi-democracy. It is reflective of section of Russian people that openly support Putin. The ones who don’t support him don’t speak out of fear and their numbers are unknown. Do you doubt that Putin has majority support in Russia? I don't. I'm sure that there are dissenters, but it doesn't change the fact that Putin reflects the majority of Russians. Just to be clear, y'all aren't imprinting your own values upon the peoples of these other countries, are you? Not everyone accepts the superiority of our western sensibilities, and, consequently, they have very different ideas regarding the relationship between the individual and the state than we do. Do I doubt that Putin has the majority of support in Russia? Yes, I have doubts he has majority support. Do I believe that Russians might have a different opinion of him if they had a free and open press? Yes. I am not even imprinting my own values on Russia. I see Russia for what it is, a foreign country that has a government invested in repressing information, both to its people and to foreign powers. There are sections of Russia that are black boxes. I do not feel I have enough information to believe anything about that countries politics with certainty. So why do you think that Russia relapsed back into authoritarianism after the fall of the Soviet Union? Wait do you think that happened because the people wanted authoritarianism? "Want" is probably too strong of a word. But think about how the Russian people have been conditioned to live over the past millennium. If there are two things that the Russians know, they are suffering and dictators. Freedom isn't exactly something that comes naturally to Russians. So... why DO you think Russia ended up with Putin? Go deeper than 'they like Putin' please. Because it's kind of obvious why Putin ended up in power if you're even slightly familiar with Russian history and politics, why they ended up authoritarian, and why he has majority support, and that support is genuine. But the half-statements and lazy inferences getting thrown around are annoying, so I want to see if you actually know what you're talking about. Because I do, and I don't think the rise of Putin proves the point you think it does. Like I alluded with my previous comments, the Russians are a broken people. They are conditioned to want and accept rulers like Putin. With the exception of the brief Yeltsin years, the Russians haven't known anything else in 1,000 years. For that reason, the Russians will tolerate things that Americans and the English -- who have vastly different traditions -- won't. Similarly, it is entirely uncoincidental that the Latin American countries have a rich history of electing leaders like Chavez. It's a reflection of their tradition and culture.
Right, so you are talking out of your arse.
The Russians are not a broken people. In fact, that's WHY they like Putin. They see Putin as a return to when you could be proud to be Russian again. The Yeltsin years are generally considered inside Russia to be years of appeasement to a west that hates them which got them nothing but contempt and global weakness, where they feel the US took advantage of Yeltsin and gave Russia nothing in return. Putin on the other hand made them a superpower again, that people are scared of again. They see a lot of Western criticism of Putin to be specifically that people like yourself don't like that they're no longer a broken people under the greater west's thumb, and are out on the world stage pushing their own pro-Russia political agenda.
Authoritarianism, on the other hand, is baked into the Russian constitution. The constitution they have does not guarantee freedom. It simply isn't something they expect. A Russian leader can have as much power or as little (deregulated power) as they feel is necessary for proper running of the country. Putin felt he could run things better by centralising power, so that's what he did. The results, as far as a good majority of Russians are concerned, speak for themselves. The next leader after the Putinedvedev era might deregulate everything because he feels the free market is the way to go. The Constitution allows for that.
That isn't a 'broken' people. That's just people who think differently. And your attitude is exactly why the Russians haven't gotten along with the West for an extended period for a very long time. You think you know best. They would kindly like you to fuck off. This attitude is quite strongly reflected in Putin's political strategy, and it's no surprise that his popularity spikes whenever he manages to advance Russian interests specifically in the face of other western resistance.
It's also why Russian meddling accusations have zero traction. They see America as having meddled in their affairs for so long that it's not even worth discussing anymore, and genuinely don't get why it's such a big thing that they're now doing it back.
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On June 30 2018 00:26 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 00:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 29 2018 22:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 29 2018 22:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 29 2018 22:28 xDaunt wrote:
Let’s just presume that we abolish ICE. What next? What do we put in its place, if anything? Go back to not having it. Immigration isn't a big problem. If anything we have a refugee issue at the border. ICE doesn't really do much for that in the first place. The little it does can be put back under control of the Customs and Border Protection. It a wasteful and redundant organization you should probably be in favor of abolishing anyway. Of course I would go further, but it would be no big deal at all if they ceased existing tomorrow (other than people lost in their system perhaps). Refugees are a problem. Illegal immigration is a problem. And if Obrador becomes the next Chavez, we are going to be fucked if we don’t lock down the southern border. What is the data that shows we have a problem? Everything I've seen is that migration comes in waves throughout US history. The from South America wave looks done - most new immigrants are from Asia now, right? What, are you not paying to attention to the mess over in Europe? Yeah, the Europeans are clearly having a great time with the massive influx of refugees and migrants arriving at their shores. I expect better than this from you. Chavez murdered his country and Maduro is putting the final nails in the coffin. Comparing Trump to Chavez is simply retarded.
So... you have no data? You're welcome to borrow some of mine. Does the below look like a 'crisis' to you? Just too many flooding 'into' the US?
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Cb4qJv5.png)
As for the Trump / Chavez comparison... they are both economic populists. Their personality and political style is very similar too.
https://www.acast.com/ft-alphachat/whyeconomicpopulistsalwaysdisappoint
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On June 30 2018 07:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 06:45 screamingpalm wrote:
Spoken like a true moderate Dem/Clinton supporter who already knows everything with your fingers in your ears. This also isn’t a great way to convince anyone of the merits to your arguments. On an unrelated note: There is something deeply weird about Kennedy's son being Trump's loan officer at Deutsche Bank for a decade and only finding out about it now. And the Trump administration encouraging the justice to retire on the DL. http://www.businessinsider.com/anthony-kennedy-son-loaned-president-trump-over-a-billion-dollars-2018-6Not saying there is some grand conspiracy or anything. I have not reason to believe there is. Just that its that world is to god damn small and the optics of this are bizarre.
When I initially saw that, I thought it was some alarmist at HuffPo who reporting that Kennedy's son happened to work at Deutsche bank, but he was an analyst or something who happened to work for a multinational financial firm with tens of thousands of employees. I was surprised when it turned out the guy was was high up in the real estate banking division, that's definitely something that should be investigated at the very least. Innocent until proven guilty, but it doesn't look good.
Moreover, Deutsche bank is probably the worst of the big banks when it comes to this sort of stuff, as evidenced by them failing the stress test this week. Another bank and I would have been less concerned.
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On June 30 2018 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 00:26 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 00:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 29 2018 22:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 29 2018 22:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 29 2018 22:28 xDaunt wrote:
Let’s just presume that we abolish ICE. What next? What do we put in its place, if anything? Go back to not having it. Immigration isn't a big problem. If anything we have a refugee issue at the border. ICE doesn't really do much for that in the first place. The little it does can be put back under control of the Customs and Border Protection. It a wasteful and redundant organization you should probably be in favor of abolishing anyway. Of course I would go further, but it would be no big deal at all if they ceased existing tomorrow (other than people lost in their system perhaps). Refugees are a problem. Illegal immigration is a problem. And if Obrador becomes the next Chavez, we are going to be fucked if we don’t lock down the southern border. What is the data that shows we have a problem? Everything I've seen is that migration comes in waves throughout US history. The from South America wave looks done - most new immigrants are from Asia now, right? What, are you not paying to attention to the mess over in Europe? Yeah, the Europeans are clearly having a great time with the massive influx of refugees and migrants arriving at their shores. Also, Trump is clearly the 'next Chavez'. I expect better than this from you. Chavez murdered his country and Maduro is putting the final nails in the coffin. Comparing Trump to Chavez is simply retarded. So... you have no data? You're welcome to borrow some of mine. Does the below look like a 'crisis' to you? Just too many flooding 'into' the US? As for the Trump / Chavez comparison... they are both economic populists. Their personality and political style is very similar too. https://www.acast.com/ft-alphachat/whyeconomicpopulistsalwaysdisappoint
Why don’t you reread my post and then explain to everyone why the data that you posted is irrelevant.
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On June 30 2018 08:55 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 30 2018 00:26 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 00:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 29 2018 22:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 29 2018 22:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 29 2018 22:28 xDaunt wrote:
Let’s just presume that we abolish ICE. What next? What do we put in its place, if anything? Go back to not having it. Immigration isn't a big problem. If anything we have a refugee issue at the border. ICE doesn't really do much for that in the first place. The little it does can be put back under control of the Customs and Border Protection. It a wasteful and redundant organization you should probably be in favor of abolishing anyway. Of course I would go further, but it would be no big deal at all if they ceased existing tomorrow (other than people lost in their system perhaps). Refugees are a problem. Illegal immigration is a problem. And if Obrador becomes the next Chavez, we are going to be fucked if we don’t lock down the southern border. What is the data that shows we have a problem? Everything I've seen is that migration comes in waves throughout US history. The from South America wave looks done - most new immigrants are from Asia now, right? What, are you not paying to attention to the mess over in Europe? Yeah, the Europeans are clearly having a great time with the massive influx of refugees and migrants arriving at their shores. Also, Trump is clearly the 'next Chavez'. I expect better than this from you. Chavez murdered his country and Maduro is putting the final nails in the coffin. Comparing Trump to Chavez is simply retarded. So... you have no data? You're welcome to borrow some of mine. Does the below look like a 'crisis' to you? Just too many flooding 'into' the US? As for the Trump / Chavez comparison... they are both economic populists. Their personality and political style is very similar too. https://www.acast.com/ft-alphachat/whyeconomicpopulistsalwaysdisappoint Why don’t you reread my post and then explain to everyone why the data that you posted is irrelevant.
Maybe you should do that? Just a thought.
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My theory (hardly unique) of that Kenndy saw how the liberal justices were moving on things like free speech and decided that 1A was in far more danger than things like Roe. A Republican president + Senate is far more likely to give a justice closer to his stances on things he cares about than a Democrat. Plus being old and wanting to see your family, maybe live in your home state again, prob helps.
The WH has been using subtle hints, but that's not unique.
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5930 Posts
On June 30 2018 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 00:26 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 00:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 29 2018 22:38 xDaunt wrote:On June 29 2018 22:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 29 2018 22:28 xDaunt wrote:
Let’s just presume that we abolish ICE. What next? What do we put in its place, if anything? Go back to not having it. Immigration isn't a big problem. If anything we have a refugee issue at the border. ICE doesn't really do much for that in the first place. The little it does can be put back under control of the Customs and Border Protection. It a wasteful and redundant organization you should probably be in favor of abolishing anyway. Of course I would go further, but it would be no big deal at all if they ceased existing tomorrow (other than people lost in their system perhaps). Refugees are a problem. Illegal immigration is a problem. And if Obrador becomes the next Chavez, we are going to be fucked if we don’t lock down the southern border. What is the data that shows we have a problem? Everything I've seen is that migration comes in waves throughout US history. The from South America wave looks done - most new immigrants are from Asia now, right? What, are you not paying to attention to the mess over in Europe? Yeah, the Europeans are clearly having a great time with the massive influx of refugees and migrants arriving at their shores. Also, Trump is clearly the 'next Chavez'. I expect better than this from you. Chavez murdered his country and Maduro is putting the final nails in the coffin. Comparing Trump to Chavez is simply retarded. So... you have no data? You're welcome to borrow some of mine. Does the below look like a 'crisis' to you? Just too many flooding 'into' the US? As for the Trump / Chavez comparison... they are both economic populists. Their personality and political style is very similar too. https://www.acast.com/ft-alphachat/whyeconomicpopulistsalwaysdisappoint
Yeah, Trump's economic play is exactly the same as a lot of Latin American leaders who enact self defeating economic nationalism. The attitudes to justify that sort of economic nationalism isn't unique to Latin America, the United States isn't all of a sudden more enlightened than these culturally scrub nations. You see this in the worker response to Harley Davidson's production shift to the EU. They don't blame the metal and retaliatory tarrifs, because Trump is a good businessman, knows what he's doing and have to trust the person they voted for, but rather blame the EU for their loss of jobs. Its like the Ohio steelworkers who love the steel tarrifs but hate the tarrifs and restrictions on Russian steel because their jobs are at risk, its not a coherent thought but they don't really think hard enough to see the incoherence and get defensive when you point it out.
Trump's aim to get as much domestic production up no matter the costs is pretty much what Brazil does right now. Did you know video game consoles cost from $1,000 to up to $2,000 because Brazil mandates that companies manufacturer their shit in their home country? That's not much different from what Trump is trying to do with his North American metal tarrifs and Canadian softwood tarrifs, despite the logistics involved. The only problem is that there isn't an outright ban so there's still such a high demand for Canadian softwood that larger Canadian producers can just increase the prices of their product and actually see profit increases. The trade war just gives them cover to hike prices up, American consumers and businesses just have to eat the price increases.
If you remember, Chavez ran a similar platform of self defeating economic nationalism and power consolidation yet kept getting reelected. It wasn't the middle class handing him those wins, it was the economic poor that kept turning up to elections. Because it was always the fault of the other that the country was a mess from the judicial branch to the press to the middle class. These things aren't unique to Latin America's culture, its something we're seeing straight from Trump's base right now (deep state, press, EU/Canada/Mexico trade agreements, Democrats, liberal elites)
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It’s good to hear the outrage from republicans about trump giving concessions to a nuke happy state and touting their denuclearisation while they continue to build nukes.
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On late Friday night Trump end the Flores agreement, renewing family dention. The Flores agreement was the resolution of 12 years of litigation regarding detaining children. Before that agreement, INS(pre ICE) would detain children for unlimited periods of time in run down prisons or other facilities that were unfit for other uses. It went up to the Supreme Court and the settlement for 20 days of detention was the result.
Now Trumps team, in its need to enforce its zero tolerance policy has ended the agreement, which will set off a new round of litigation. All to avoid “catch and release” where they electronically track the asylum seeker.
So prepare to have your tax dollars wasted on a stupid plan created by anti immigration champions Miller and Sessions. A fight no one really wanted to fix a problem that does not exist:
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It's exhausting on all counts, but as a US citizen nothing GH has said about current political happenings is wrong. Not saying he/I have a solution, but good god has everything gone to shit.
EDIT: What I think he's most right about is all this was already happening. Just the current administration makes it visible to the general public.
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On June 30 2018 12:30 mierin wrote:
It's exhausting on all counts, but as a US citizen nothing GH has said about current political happenings is wrong. Not saying he/I have a solution, but good god has everything gone to shit.
EDIT: What I think he's most right about is all this was already happening. Just the current administration makes it visible to the general public.
He tells it like it is. It's just not having the effect his supporters thought it would have.
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The system has sucked for decades. No one cares enough to fix it and when the political will existed to do so, folks like Miller and Sessions did everything in their power to kill reform. The only highlight to this is the true anti all forms of immigration foundation of this part of the Republican Party is in full view. Right down to xenophobic core. But we might have to wait until after 2020 or longer for any real reform.
Edit: the dumbest part about this whole thing is it won’t stop asylum seekers. They would rather be in a jail in the US than be in their own county, dead or worse with their family. This is according to the former head of ICE.
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The bottom line is always going to be voting.
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On June 30 2018 12:30 Plansix wrote:https://twitter.com/nprpolitics/status/1012896650992340992On late Friday night Trump end the Flores agreement, renewing family dention. The Flores agreement was the resolution of 12 years of litigation regarding detaining children. Before that agreement, INS(pre ICE) would detain children for unlimited periods of time in run down prisons or other facilities that were unfit for other uses. It went up to the Supreme Court and the settlement for 20 days of detention was the result. Now Trumps team, in its need to enforce its zero tolerance policy has ended the agreement, which will set off a new round of litigation. All to avoid “catch and release” where they electronically track the asylum seeker. So prepare to have your tax dollars wasted on a stupid plan created by anti immigration champions Miller and Sessions. A fight no one really wanted to fix a problem that does not exist:
Its what we do in Australia. It makes people feel safe but its a pointless exercise of brutality and financial waste. We could literally gift land and house to every asylum seeker we have locked up right now, its that expensive to treat people like garbage. Its exorbitantly expensive to lock people up indefinitely, even some ICE agents are speaking out because they're finding it difficult to do day to day tasks right now.
At the end of the day, the majority of these internment camp policies have no economic or social value outside making certain demographics feel safe from the unwashed hordes. That's their only value.
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And that demographic is small. We are a huge country and we would never notice these people. But there is an industry areoind detaining then and a machine built to keep voters scared of the “immigrant” destroying American “culture”.
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On June 30 2018 13:18 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 12:30 Plansix wrote:https://twitter.com/nprpolitics/status/1012896650992340992On late Friday night Trump end the Flores agreement, renewing family dention. The Flores agreement was the resolution of 12 years of litigation regarding detaining children. Before that agreement, INS(pre ICE) would detain children for unlimited periods of time in run down prisons or other facilities that were unfit for other uses. It went up to the Supreme Court and the settlement for 20 days of detention was the result. Now Trumps team, in its need to enforce its zero tolerance policy has ended the agreement, which will set off a new round of litigation. All to avoid “catch and release” where they electronically track the asylum seeker. So prepare to have your tax dollars wasted on a stupid plan created by anti immigration champions Miller and Sessions. A fight no one really wanted to fix a problem that does not exist: Its what we do in Australia. It makes people feel safe but its a pointless exercise of brutality and financial waste. We could literally gift land and house to every asylum seeker we have locked up right now, its that expensive to treat people like garbage. Its exorbitantly expensive to lock people up indefinitely, even some ICE agents are speaking out because they're finding it difficult to do day to day tasks right now. At the end of the day, the majority of these internment camp policies have no economic or social value outside making certain demographics feel safe from the unwashed hordes. That's their only value.
You’re a little unclear here. Does your nation lock up people illegally entering your country, and claiming asylum after being caught? Are you saying asylum seekers of all stripes are subjected to poor conditions (locked up) while their claim is being processed?
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On June 30 2018 13:51 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 13:18 Womwomwom wrote:On June 30 2018 12:30 Plansix wrote:https://twitter.com/nprpolitics/status/1012896650992340992On late Friday night Trump end the Flores agreement, renewing family dention. The Flores agreement was the resolution of 12 years of litigation regarding detaining children. Before that agreement, INS(pre ICE) would detain children for unlimited periods of time in run down prisons or other facilities that were unfit for other uses. It went up to the Supreme Court and the settlement for 20 days of detention was the result. Now Trumps team, in its need to enforce its zero tolerance policy has ended the agreement, which will set off a new round of litigation. All to avoid “catch and release” where they electronically track the asylum seeker. So prepare to have your tax dollars wasted on a stupid plan created by anti immigration champions Miller and Sessions. A fight no one really wanted to fix a problem that does not exist: Its what we do in Australia. It makes people feel safe but its a pointless exercise of brutality and financial waste. We could literally gift land and house to every asylum seeker we have locked up right now, its that expensive to treat people like garbage. Its exorbitantly expensive to lock people up indefinitely, even some ICE agents are speaking out because they're finding it difficult to do day to day tasks right now. At the end of the day, the majority of these internment camp policies have no economic or social value outside making certain demographics feel safe from the unwashed hordes. That's their only value. You’re a little unclear here. Does your nation lock up people illegally entering your country, and claiming asylum after being caught? Are you saying asylum seekers of all stripes are subjected to poor conditions (locked up) while their claim is being processed?
anyone who tries to illegally enter Australia by boat is apprehended, sent to offshore detention facilities, family and all, run by tiny Pacific nations whose only economy is Australian aid, and detained for years and years, and when they are found to be legitimate refugees, they still aren't allowed onto Australia. Instead they are sent to other 'safe' countries like Papua New Guinea.
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EPT
