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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On July 01 2018 05:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
perhaps the most important factor to the "success" of socialism in venezuela under chavez was that the price of oil at the time, which made the country relatively flush. it has a lot of parallels to the scandinavian countries which are often lauded for their strong social safety programs whose economies largely rely on north sea oil. i find it more than a little ironic that capitalism is basically what makes all that work.
If you by 'scandinavian countries' mean Norway, sure. Sweden, Finland and Denmark(not really scandinavian though), not so much. Or not at all really.
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On July 01 2018 06:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 05:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
perhaps the most important factor to the "success" of socialism in venezuela under chavez was that the price of oil at the time, which made the country relatively flush. it has a lot of parallels to the scandinavian countries which are often lauded for their strong social safety programs whose economies largely rely on north sea oil. i find it more than a little ironic that capitalism is basically what makes all that work. Exactly, in Venezuela the Billionaires that support he government keep getting wealthier, many in banking since the government needs the loans to operate. The ones that don't agree lose their companies to the government. And the leaders get rich, it is really a brilliant scheme.
So all the billionaires in Venezuela support the government in your view?
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On July 01 2018 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:28 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 22:17 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 30 2018 00:26 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 00:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 29 2018 22:38 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Refugees are a problem. Illegal immigration is a problem. And if Obrador becomes the next Chavez, we are going to be fucked if we don’t lock down the southern border. What is the data that shows we have a problem? Everything I've seen is that migration comes in waves throughout US history. The from South America wave looks done - most new immigrants are from Asia now, right? What, are you not paying to attention to the mess over in Europe? Yeah, the Europeans are clearly having a great time with the massive influx of refugees and migrants arriving at their shores. Also, Trump is clearly the 'next Chavez'. I expect better than this from you. Chavez murdered his country and Maduro is putting the final nails in the coffin. Comparing Trump to Chavez is simply retarded. As for the Trump / Chavez comparison... they are both economic populists. Their personality and political style is very similar too. https://www.acast.com/ft-alphachat/whyeconomicpopulistsalwaysdisappoint I did bunch of reading on this comparison and it is amazing the similarities. They have different targets and rhetoric but their strategy is the same. Anyone who loves one of those 2 but hates the other should do some digging. Heck they are even both reality TV stars. One thing that came up that I would love to hear the mental gymnastics it takes to justify is. Much like Trump, Chavez was a BILLIONAIRE. Now trump got his money from his Daddy and evading taxes. But Chavez somehow amassed this fortune as a "socialist" leader. It is almost like when he was appropriating businesses from people he didn't agree with, he wasn't so much interested in helping the people as he was himself! Now before someone defends this with "but the people loved him". Of course some people loved him, he made some of their lives better, and those he didn't he gave them an easy target for their rage, much like other leaders Jong, Stallin, Hitler. This just in Propaganda works! Especially when it is enforced. Stick too, Chavez was able to be a great socialist, stick to his values and live in extreme wealth while many of his countrymen were in extreme poverty (his supporters) because.... They are political opposites and Chavez did do what he said as iamdave pointed out. This "anyone popular is like Trump" meme has to get reined in. I'm curious though, I saw some speculation and allegations of him amassing a personal fortune but I didn't really see any evidence. Given it wouldn't surprise me at all to see any national leader stealing money from the people (I mean Trump's charging the secret service to protect him [by way of golf carts, and accommodations namely]) but that seems like a largely unsubstantiated rumor. Did you have something that you read that detailed the supporting evidence of the allegation? I'm loving these protests today, just hope more of them end up at ICE facilities shutting them down. https://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/president/hugo-chavez-net-worth/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9993238/Venezuela-the-wealth-of-Chavez-family-exposed.htmlAnd if those are "propaganda" some how his daughters are living like billionaress's and is reportadly worth 4.2 billion! Not bad for the daughter of a working man. https://www.latinpost.com/articles/71424/20150812/maria-gabriela-chávez-net-worth-hugo-chávezs-daughter-richest-woman-in-venezuela-worth-4-2-billion.htmhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192933/Hugo-Chavez-s-ambassador-daughter-Venezuela-s-richest-woman-according-new-report.htmlTrump has also "done what he said" just like chavez, you are proving the connection! Was there a quote in those of the evidence? Not sure his daughter living in the presidential residence really gets us to Chavez dying a billionaire. Youre right, the right wing propganda machine attacking socialism again. No way a dictator would steal from his people and pass that money down to his daughter..... Im guessing you gave up reading them? If nto i can lost more if you will actually read. You say that as if there isn't a long documented history of them doing exactly that. I already conceded it wouldn't surprise me, and Chavez wasn't a dictator. He was elected, then the US tried to oust him with a coup and his people forced him back into power against imperialist demands. I had actually already read them before you posted them, I was wondering if I missed the evidence provided within them. So was there a quote of the evidence you wanted to share from those? @Mohdoo I Hope you're with the crowd heading to ICE! Tell DHS to shove it!
Plenty of dictators were elected, there's no contradiction whatsoever between being a dictator and being elected. What makes one a dictator is having near complete power, regardless of whether that power was obtained by force or democratically.
Chavez did this by making an assembly write a new constitution which centralized power and made the other branches of government subservient to the executive. It's true that there was a referendum on adopting the new constitution, but even if a majority of the Venezuelan people wanted him to control every branch of government, doing so makes you a dictator in the strictest sense of the word.
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On July 01 2018 06:08 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:28 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 22:17 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 30 2018 00:26 xDaunt wrote:On June 30 2018 00:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
What is the data that shows we have a problem? Everything I've seen is that migration comes in waves throughout US history. The from South America wave looks done - most new immigrants are from Asia now, right? What, are you not paying to attention to the mess over in Europe? Yeah, the Europeans are clearly having a great time with the massive influx of refugees and migrants arriving at their shores. Also, Trump is clearly the 'next Chavez'. I expect better than this from you. Chavez murdered his country and Maduro is putting the final nails in the coffin. Comparing Trump to Chavez is simply retarded. As for the Trump / Chavez comparison... they are both economic populists. Their personality and political style is very similar too. https://www.acast.com/ft-alphachat/whyeconomicpopulistsalwaysdisappoint I did bunch of reading on this comparison and it is amazing the similarities. They have different targets and rhetoric but their strategy is the same. Anyone who loves one of those 2 but hates the other should do some digging. Heck they are even both reality TV stars. One thing that came up that I would love to hear the mental gymnastics it takes to justify is. Much like Trump, Chavez was a BILLIONAIRE. Now trump got his money from his Daddy and evading taxes. But Chavez somehow amassed this fortune as a "socialist" leader. It is almost like when he was appropriating businesses from people he didn't agree with, he wasn't so much interested in helping the people as he was himself! Now before someone defends this with "but the people loved him". Of course some people loved him, he made some of their lives better, and those he didn't he gave them an easy target for their rage, much like other leaders Jong, Stallin, Hitler. This just in Propaganda works! Especially when it is enforced. Stick too, Chavez was able to be a great socialist, stick to his values and live in extreme wealth while many of his countrymen were in extreme poverty (his supporters) because.... They are political opposites and Chavez did do what he said as iamdave pointed out. This "anyone popular is like Trump" meme has to get reined in. I'm curious though, I saw some speculation and allegations of him amassing a personal fortune but I didn't really see any evidence. Given it wouldn't surprise me at all to see any national leader stealing money from the people (I mean Trump's charging the secret service to protect him [by way of golf carts, and accommodations namely]) but that seems like a largely unsubstantiated rumor. Did you have something that you read that detailed the supporting evidence of the allegation? I'm loving these protests today, just hope more of them end up at ICE facilities shutting them down. https://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/president/hugo-chavez-net-worth/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9993238/Venezuela-the-wealth-of-Chavez-family-exposed.htmlAnd if those are "propaganda" some how his daughters are living like billionaress's and is reportadly worth 4.2 billion! Not bad for the daughter of a working man. https://www.latinpost.com/articles/71424/20150812/maria-gabriela-chávez-net-worth-hugo-chávezs-daughter-richest-woman-in-venezuela-worth-4-2-billion.htmhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192933/Hugo-Chavez-s-ambassador-daughter-Venezuela-s-richest-woman-according-new-report.htmlTrump has also "done what he said" just like chavez, you are proving the connection! Was there a quote in those of the evidence? Not sure his daughter living in the presidential residence really gets us to Chavez dying a billionaire. Youre right, the right wing propganda machine attacking socialism again. No way a dictator would steal from his people and pass that money down to his daughter..... Im guessing you gave up reading them? If nto i can lost more if you will actually read. You say that as if there isn't a long documented history of them doing exactly that. I already conceded it wouldn't surprise me, and Chavez wasn't a dictator. He was elected, then the US tried to oust him with a coup and his people forced him back into power against imperialist demands. I had actually already read them before you posted them, I was wondering if I missed the evidence provided within them. So was there a quote of the evidence you wanted to share from those? @Mohdoo I Hope you're with the crowd heading to ICE! Tell DHS to shove it! Plenty of dictators were elected, there's no contradiction whatsoever between being a dictator and being elected. What makes one a dictator is having near complete power, regardless of whether that power was obtained by force or democratically. Chavez did this by making an assembly write a new constitution which centralized power and made the other branches of government subservient to the executive. It's true that there was a referendum on adopting the new constitution, but even if a majority of the Venezuelan people wanted him to control every branch of government, doing so makes you a dictator in the strictest sense of the word.
If the it's being used to convey strictly that the people wanted him to have more power (though far from absolute or "dictatorial" imo) without tyrannical connotations then I suppose I wouldn't have to make a big deal over it.
On July 01 2018 06:13 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 06:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:01 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 05:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
perhaps the most important factor to the "success" of socialism in venezuela under chavez was that the price of oil at the time, which made the country relatively flush. it has a lot of parallels to the scandinavian countries which are often lauded for their strong social safety programs whose economies largely rely on north sea oil. i find it more than a little ironic that capitalism is basically what makes all that work. Exactly, in Venezuela the Billionaires that support he government keep getting wealthier, many in banking since the government needs the loans to operate. The ones that don't agree lose their companies to the government. And the leaders get rich, it is really a brilliant scheme. So all the billionaires in Venezuela support the government in your view? Nope, that is why I didn't say that.
Ummm Wouldn't the others have lost their companies?
On July 01 2018 06:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:08 Dan HH wrote:On July 01 2018 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:28 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 22:17 JimmiC wrote:I did bunch of reading on this comparison and it is amazing the similarities. They have different targets and rhetoric but their strategy is the same. Anyone who loves one of those 2 but hates the other should do some digging. Heck they are even both reality TV stars. One thing that came up that I would love to hear the mental gymnastics it takes to justify is. Much like Trump, Chavez was a BILLIONAIRE. Now trump got his money from his Daddy and evading taxes. But Chavez somehow amassed this fortune as a "socialist" leader. It is almost like when he was appropriating businesses from people he didn't agree with, he wasn't so much interested in helping the people as he was himself! Now before someone defends this with "but the people loved him". Of course some people loved him, he made some of their lives better, and those he didn't he gave them an easy target for their rage, much like other leaders Jong, Stallin, Hitler. This just in Propaganda works! Especially when it is enforced. Stick too, Chavez was able to be a great socialist, stick to his values and live in extreme wealth while many of his countrymen were in extreme poverty (his supporters) because.... They are political opposites and Chavez did do what he said as iamdave pointed out. This "anyone popular is like Trump" meme has to get reined in. I'm curious though, I saw some speculation and allegations of him amassing a personal fortune but I didn't really see any evidence. Given it wouldn't surprise me at all to see any national leader stealing money from the people (I mean Trump's charging the secret service to protect him [by way of golf carts, and accommodations namely]) but that seems like a largely unsubstantiated rumor. Did you have something that you read that detailed the supporting evidence of the allegation? I'm loving these protests today, just hope more of them end up at ICE facilities shutting them down. https://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/president/hugo-chavez-net-worth/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9993238/Venezuela-the-wealth-of-Chavez-family-exposed.htmlAnd if those are "propaganda" some how his daughters are living like billionaress's and is reportadly worth 4.2 billion! Not bad for the daughter of a working man. https://www.latinpost.com/articles/71424/20150812/maria-gabriela-chávez-net-worth-hugo-chávezs-daughter-richest-woman-in-venezuela-worth-4-2-billion.htmhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192933/Hugo-Chavez-s-ambassador-daughter-Venezuela-s-richest-woman-according-new-report.htmlTrump has also "done what he said" just like chavez, you are proving the connection! Was there a quote in those of the evidence? Not sure his daughter living in the presidential residence really gets us to Chavez dying a billionaire. Youre right, the right wing propganda machine attacking socialism again. No way a dictator would steal from his people and pass that money down to his daughter..... Im guessing you gave up reading them? If nto i can lost more if you will actually read. You say that as if there isn't a long documented history of them doing exactly that. I already conceded it wouldn't surprise me, and Chavez wasn't a dictator. He was elected, then the US tried to oust him with a coup and his people forced him back into power against imperialist demands. I had actually already read them before you posted them, I was wondering if I missed the evidence provided within them. So was there a quote of the evidence you wanted to share from those? @Mohdoo I Hope you're with the crowd heading to ICE! Tell DHS to shove it! Plenty of dictators were elected, there's no contradiction whatsoever between being a dictator and being elected. What makes one a dictator is having near complete power, regardless of whether that power was obtained by force or democratically. Chavez did this by making an assembly write a new constitution which centralized power and made the other branches of government subservient to the executive. It's true that there was a referendum on adopting the new constitution, but even if a majority of the Venezuelan people wanted him to control every branch of government, doing so makes you a dictator in the strictest sense of the word. If the it's being used to convey strictly that the people wanted him to have more power (though far from absolute or "dictatorial" imo) without tyrannical connotations then I suppose I wouldn't have to make a big deal over it. All dictators claim the people want them to have more power... how naive are you buddy?
You think the people didn't want Chavez? Seriously?
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Hugo-Chavez-Still-Venezuelas-Most-Popular-President-Poll-20170301-0030.html
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On July 01 2018 06:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:08 Dan HH wrote:On July 01 2018 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:28 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 22:17 JimmiC wrote:I did bunch of reading on this comparison and it is amazing the similarities. They have different targets and rhetoric but their strategy is the same. Anyone who loves one of those 2 but hates the other should do some digging. Heck they are even both reality TV stars. One thing that came up that I would love to hear the mental gymnastics it takes to justify is. Much like Trump, Chavez was a BILLIONAIRE. Now trump got his money from his Daddy and evading taxes. But Chavez somehow amassed this fortune as a "socialist" leader. It is almost like when he was appropriating businesses from people he didn't agree with, he wasn't so much interested in helping the people as he was himself! Now before someone defends this with "but the people loved him". Of course some people loved him, he made some of their lives better, and those he didn't he gave them an easy target for their rage, much like other leaders Jong, Stallin, Hitler. This just in Propaganda works! Especially when it is enforced. Stick too, Chavez was able to be a great socialist, stick to his values and live in extreme wealth while many of his countrymen were in extreme poverty (his supporters) because.... They are political opposites and Chavez did do what he said as iamdave pointed out. This "anyone popular is like Trump" meme has to get reined in. I'm curious though, I saw some speculation and allegations of him amassing a personal fortune but I didn't really see any evidence. Given it wouldn't surprise me at all to see any national leader stealing money from the people (I mean Trump's charging the secret service to protect him [by way of golf carts, and accommodations namely]) but that seems like a largely unsubstantiated rumor. Did you have something that you read that detailed the supporting evidence of the allegation? I'm loving these protests today, just hope more of them end up at ICE facilities shutting them down. https://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/president/hugo-chavez-net-worth/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9993238/Venezuela-the-wealth-of-Chavez-family-exposed.htmlAnd if those are "propaganda" some how his daughters are living like billionaress's and is reportadly worth 4.2 billion! Not bad for the daughter of a working man. https://www.latinpost.com/articles/71424/20150812/maria-gabriela-chávez-net-worth-hugo-chávezs-daughter-richest-woman-in-venezuela-worth-4-2-billion.htmhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192933/Hugo-Chavez-s-ambassador-daughter-Venezuela-s-richest-woman-according-new-report.htmlTrump has also "done what he said" just like chavez, you are proving the connection! Was there a quote in those of the evidence? Not sure his daughter living in the presidential residence really gets us to Chavez dying a billionaire. Youre right, the right wing propganda machine attacking socialism again. No way a dictator would steal from his people and pass that money down to his daughter..... Im guessing you gave up reading them? If nto i can lost more if you will actually read. You say that as if there isn't a long documented history of them doing exactly that. I already conceded it wouldn't surprise me, and Chavez wasn't a dictator. He was elected, then the US tried to oust him with a coup and his people forced him back into power against imperialist demands. I had actually already read them before you posted them, I was wondering if I missed the evidence provided within them. So was there a quote of the evidence you wanted to share from those? @Mohdoo I Hope you're with the crowd heading to ICE! Tell DHS to shove it! Plenty of dictators were elected, there's no contradiction whatsoever between being a dictator and being elected. What makes one a dictator is having near complete power, regardless of whether that power was obtained by force or democratically. Chavez did this by making an assembly write a new constitution which centralized power and made the other branches of government subservient to the executive. It's true that there was a referendum on adopting the new constitution, but even if a majority of the Venezuelan people wanted him to control every branch of government, doing so makes you a dictator in the strictest sense of the word. If the it's being used to convey strictly that the people wanted him to have more power (though far from absolute or "dictatorial" imo) without tyrannical connotations then I suppose I wouldn't have to make a big deal over it. All dictators claim the people want them to have more power... how naive are you buddy? And to respond to your edit. No I think the people initially wanted him and then think he pulled the age old dictator playbook of neutering his opposition, propaganda, into absolute power all while robbing his people to make him, his family and his friends wealthy. But you know all I have to back that up is what happened the mountain of evidence. What is currently happening, but of course it's all fake news right Green "Left Trump" Horizons?
I know you don't like actually substantiating your arguments but google exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election,_1998
He won by 16 points. Given it wasn't a landslide, it was a substantial win in what was a more legitimate election than we've probably ever had in the US.
And to you other edit, many of them did or parts of their company, either by straight taking them or claiming they needed the land for better land use. So yes and no, they took what they could.
So there are billionaire opponents of the Venezuelan dictatorship that just choose not to give up their businesses? You're not making any sense.
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On July 01 2018 06:34 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:17 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:08 Dan HH wrote:On July 01 2018 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Was there a quote in those of the evidence? Not sure his daughter living in the presidential residence really gets us to Chavez dying a billionaire. Youre right, the right wing propganda machine attacking socialism again. No way a dictator would steal from his people and pass that money down to his daughter..... Im guessing you gave up reading them? If nto i can lost more if you will actually read. You say that as if there isn't a long documented history of them doing exactly that. I already conceded it wouldn't surprise me, and Chavez wasn't a dictator. He was elected, then the US tried to oust him with a coup and his people forced him back into power against imperialist demands. I had actually already read them before you posted them, I was wondering if I missed the evidence provided within them. So was there a quote of the evidence you wanted to share from those? @Mohdoo I Hope you're with the crowd heading to ICE! Tell DHS to shove it! Plenty of dictators were elected, there's no contradiction whatsoever between being a dictator and being elected. What makes one a dictator is having near complete power, regardless of whether that power was obtained by force or democratically. Chavez did this by making an assembly write a new constitution which centralized power and made the other branches of government subservient to the executive. It's true that there was a referendum on adopting the new constitution, but even if a majority of the Venezuelan people wanted him to control every branch of government, doing so makes you a dictator in the strictest sense of the word. If the it's being used to convey strictly that the people wanted him to have more power (though far from absolute or "dictatorial" imo) without tyrannical connotations then I suppose I wouldn't have to make a big deal over it. All dictators claim the people want them to have more power... how naive are you buddy? And to respond to your edit. No I think the people initially wanted him and then think he pulled the age old dictator playbook of neutering his opposition, propaganda, into absolute power all while robbing his people to make him, his family and his friends wealthy. But you know all I have to back that up is what happened the mountain of evidence. What is currently happening, but of course it's all fake news right Green "Left Trump" Horizons? I know you don't like actually substantiating your arguments but google exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election,_1998 He won by 16 points. Given it wasn't a landslide, it was a substantial win in what was a more legitimate election than we've probably ever had in the US.
Mr prove it. Google exists please prove this completely retarded, clearly inflammatory statement. GO!
Bu..ya... re...I mean...
The 1998 elections were the first to be carried out with a non-partisan National Electoral Council.[4] Traditionally poll workers had been provided by the parties, but in this election "a lottery was set up to draft 300,000 registered voters as poll workers".[4] The elections also saw "the world's first automated voting system, which featured a single integrated electronic network that was supposed to transmit the results from the polling stations to central headquarters within minutes."[4] Whilst Venezuela had traditionally provided election observers to other Latin American countries, the uncertainty of the new system and the possibility of handover to a non-traditional party raised the stakes in terms of demonstrating that the elections would be fair, and Venezuela invited international election observers for the first time.[4] The Organization of American States, European Union, Carter Center and International Republican Institute all sent delegations.[4]
The automated vote system enabled the Electoral Council to announce the results within 2.5 hours of the polls closing.[4] After corroborating the results with the Carter Center, the losing candidate conceded several hours later.[4]
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On July 01 2018 05:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
perhaps the most important factor to the "success" of socialism in venezuela under chavez was that the price of oil at the time, which made the country relatively flush. it has a lot of parallels to the scandinavian countries which are often lauded for their strong social safety programs whose economies largely rely on north sea oil. i find it more than a little ironic that capitalism is basically what makes all that work.
are you suggesting that socialism needs an "outside" of global capitalism to work? historical evidence suggests that it is precisely the erection (i.e. the partial nature of the isolated socialist country within a global liberal net) of an "outside" which defeats it.
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On July 01 2018 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 06:08 Dan HH wrote:On July 01 2018 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:28 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 22:17 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 30 2018 00:26 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
What, are you not paying to attention to the mess over in Europe? Yeah, the Europeans are clearly having a great time with the massive influx of refugees and migrants arriving at their shores.
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I expect better than this from you. Chavez murdered his country and Maduro is putting the final nails in the coffin. Comparing Trump to Chavez is simply retarded. As for the Trump / Chavez comparison... they are both economic populists. Their personality and political style is very similar too. https://www.acast.com/ft-alphachat/whyeconomicpopulistsalwaysdisappoint I did bunch of reading on this comparison and it is amazing the similarities. They have different targets and rhetoric but their strategy is the same. Anyone who loves one of those 2 but hates the other should do some digging. Heck they are even both reality TV stars. One thing that came up that I would love to hear the mental gymnastics it takes to justify is. Much like Trump, Chavez was a BILLIONAIRE. Now trump got his money from his Daddy and evading taxes. But Chavez somehow amassed this fortune as a "socialist" leader. It is almost like when he was appropriating businesses from people he didn't agree with, he wasn't so much interested in helping the people as he was himself! Now before someone defends this with "but the people loved him". Of course some people loved him, he made some of their lives better, and those he didn't he gave them an easy target for their rage, much like other leaders Jong, Stallin, Hitler. This just in Propaganda works! Especially when it is enforced. Stick too, Chavez was able to be a great socialist, stick to his values and live in extreme wealth while many of his countrymen were in extreme poverty (his supporters) because.... They are political opposites and Chavez did do what he said as iamdave pointed out. This "anyone popular is like Trump" meme has to get reined in. I'm curious though, I saw some speculation and allegations of him amassing a personal fortune but I didn't really see any evidence. Given it wouldn't surprise me at all to see any national leader stealing money from the people (I mean Trump's charging the secret service to protect him [by way of golf carts, and accommodations namely]) but that seems like a largely unsubstantiated rumor. Did you have something that you read that detailed the supporting evidence of the allegation? I'm loving these protests today, just hope more of them end up at ICE facilities shutting them down. https://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/president/hugo-chavez-net-worth/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9993238/Venezuela-the-wealth-of-Chavez-family-exposed.htmlAnd if those are "propaganda" some how his daughters are living like billionaress's and is reportadly worth 4.2 billion! Not bad for the daughter of a working man. https://www.latinpost.com/articles/71424/20150812/maria-gabriela-chávez-net-worth-hugo-chávezs-daughter-richest-woman-in-venezuela-worth-4-2-billion.htmhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192933/Hugo-Chavez-s-ambassador-daughter-Venezuela-s-richest-woman-according-new-report.htmlTrump has also "done what he said" just like chavez, you are proving the connection! Was there a quote in those of the evidence? Not sure his daughter living in the presidential residence really gets us to Chavez dying a billionaire. Youre right, the right wing propganda machine attacking socialism again. No way a dictator would steal from his people and pass that money down to his daughter..... Im guessing you gave up reading them? If nto i can lost more if you will actually read. You say that as if there isn't a long documented history of them doing exactly that. I already conceded it wouldn't surprise me, and Chavez wasn't a dictator. He was elected, then the US tried to oust him with a coup and his people forced him back into power against imperialist demands. I had actually already read them before you posted them, I was wondering if I missed the evidence provided within them. So was there a quote of the evidence you wanted to share from those? @Mohdoo I Hope you're with the crowd heading to ICE! Tell DHS to shove it! Plenty of dictators were elected, there's no contradiction whatsoever between being a dictator and being elected. What makes one a dictator is having near complete power, regardless of whether that power was obtained by force or democratically. Chavez did this by making an assembly write a new constitution which centralized power and made the other branches of government subservient to the executive. It's true that there was a referendum on adopting the new constitution, but even if a majority of the Venezuelan people wanted him to control every branch of government, doing so makes you a dictator in the strictest sense of the word. If the it's being used to convey strictly that the people wanted him to have more power (though far from absolute or "dictatorial" imo) without tyrannical connotations then I suppose I wouldn't have to make a big deal over it.
This is where we go full circle, the rationale for the constitutional changes which gave him authority over the other branches of government was none other than draining the swamp.
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On July 01 2018 06:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 06:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:34 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:17 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:08 Dan HH wrote:On July 01 2018 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 04:40 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:
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Was there a quote in those of the evidence? Not sure his daughter living in the presidential residence really gets us to Chavez dying a billionaire.
Youre right, the right wing propganda machine attacking socialism again. No way a dictator would steal from his people and pass that money down to his daughter..... Im guessing you gave up reading them? If nto i can lost more if you will actually read. You say that as if there isn't a long documented history of them doing exactly that. I already conceded it wouldn't surprise me, and Chavez wasn't a dictator. He was elected, then the US tried to oust him with a coup and his people forced him back into power against imperialist demands. I had actually already read them before you posted them, I was wondering if I missed the evidence provided within them. So was there a quote of the evidence you wanted to share from those? @Mohdoo I Hope you're with the crowd heading to ICE! Tell DHS to shove it! Plenty of dictators were elected, there's no contradiction whatsoever between being a dictator and being elected. What makes one a dictator is having near complete power, regardless of whether that power was obtained by force or democratically. Chavez did this by making an assembly write a new constitution which centralized power and made the other branches of government subservient to the executive. It's true that there was a referendum on adopting the new constitution, but even if a majority of the Venezuelan people wanted him to control every branch of government, doing so makes you a dictator in the strictest sense of the word. If the it's being used to convey strictly that the people wanted him to have more power (though far from absolute or "dictatorial" imo) without tyrannical connotations then I suppose I wouldn't have to make a big deal over it. All dictators claim the people want them to have more power... how naive are you buddy? And to respond to your edit. No I think the people initially wanted him and then think he pulled the age old dictator playbook of neutering his opposition, propaganda, into absolute power all while robbing his people to make him, his family and his friends wealthy. But you know all I have to back that up is what happened the mountain of evidence. What is currently happening, but of course it's all fake news right Green "Left Trump" Horizons? I know you don't like actually substantiating your arguments but google exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election,_1998 He won by 16 points. Given it wasn't a landslide, it was a substantial win in what was a more legitimate election than we've probably ever had in the US.
Mr prove it. Google exists please prove this completely retarded, clearly inflammatory statement. GO! Bu..ya... re...I mean... The 1998 elections were the first to be carried out with a non-partisan National Electoral Council.[4] Traditionally poll workers had been provided by the parties, but in this election "a lottery was set up to draft 300,000 registered voters as poll workers".[4] The elections also saw "the world's first automated voting system, which featured a single integrated electronic network that was supposed to transmit the results from the polling stations to central headquarters within minutes."[4] Whilst Venezuela had traditionally provided election observers to other Latin American countries, the uncertainty of the new system and the possibility of handover to a non-traditional party raised the stakes in terms of demonstrating that the elections would be fair, and Venezuela invited international election observers for the first time.[4] The Organization of American States, European Union, Carter Center and International Republican Institute all sent delegations.[4]
The automated vote system enabled the Electoral Council to announce the results within 2.5 hours of the polls closing.[4] After corroborating the results with the Carter Center, the losing candidate conceded several hours later.[4] Wait are you still talking about the firs time he was elected. This is one of the few things we have continually agreed about that it was fair. Hell, as I mentioned King of evil Hitler also won a fair election and also was popular. But regardless none of what you posted makes that election better then EVERY election EVER in the history of the USA. And where the issues come is not the first election it is the future ones and it is how he governed with absolute power and lack of transparency.
You're all over the place at this point and not making a coherent argument.
What issues do you have with which elections? When do you think the people of Venezuela didn't want Chavez in charge?
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Does the election really factor into his preformance as the counties executive? People can elect bad leaders who run the country into the ground.
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Chavez is a scumbag. Venezuela could had ended up like Norway, but ended up like, well Venezuela. Nothing to do with socialism though. It's just plain scumbag crony capitalism, a mix of oligarchic concentration of power, wealth and nationalistic populism.
The parallels to what Trump is currently trying to do is actually quite striking now that I think about it. Difference is that Chavez was successful, whilst what will occur in USA remains to be seen.
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On July 01 2018 07:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2018 07:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:51 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 06:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:34 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 06:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:17 JimmiC wrote:On July 01 2018 06:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 01 2018 06:08 Dan HH wrote:On July 01 2018 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You say that as if there isn't a long documented history of them doing exactly that. I already conceded it wouldn't surprise me, and Chavez wasn't a dictator. He was elected, then the US tried to oust him with a coup and his people forced him back into power against imperialist demands.
I had actually already read them before you posted them, I was wondering if I missed the evidence provided within them. So was there a quote of the evidence you wanted to share from those?
@Mohdoo I Hope you're with the crowd heading to ICE! Tell DHS to shove it! Plenty of dictators were elected, there's no contradiction whatsoever between being a dictator and being elected. What makes one a dictator is having near complete power, regardless of whether that power was obtained by force or democratically. Chavez did this by making an assembly write a new constitution which centralized power and made the other branches of government subservient to the executive. It's true that there was a referendum on adopting the new constitution, but even if a majority of the Venezuelan people wanted him to control every branch of government, doing so makes you a dictator in the strictest sense of the word. If the it's being used to convey strictly that the people wanted him to have more power (though far from absolute or "dictatorial" imo) without tyrannical connotations then I suppose I wouldn't have to make a big deal over it. All dictators claim the people want them to have more power... how naive are you buddy? And to respond to your edit. No I think the people initially wanted him and then think he pulled the age old dictator playbook of neutering his opposition, propaganda, into absolute power all while robbing his people to make him, his family and his friends wealthy. But you know all I have to back that up is what happened the mountain of evidence. What is currently happening, but of course it's all fake news right Green "Left Trump" Horizons? I know you don't like actually substantiating your arguments but google exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election,_1998 He won by 16 points. Given it wasn't a landslide, it was a substantial win in what was a more legitimate election than we've probably ever had in the US.
Mr prove it. Google exists please prove this completely retarded, clearly inflammatory statement. GO! Bu..ya... re...I mean... The 1998 elections were the first to be carried out with a non-partisan National Electoral Council.[4] Traditionally poll workers had been provided by the parties, but in this election "a lottery was set up to draft 300,000 registered voters as poll workers".[4] The elections also saw "the world's first automated voting system, which featured a single integrated electronic network that was supposed to transmit the results from the polling stations to central headquarters within minutes."[4] Whilst Venezuela had traditionally provided election observers to other Latin American countries, the uncertainty of the new system and the possibility of handover to a non-traditional party raised the stakes in terms of demonstrating that the elections would be fair, and Venezuela invited international election observers for the first time.[4] The Organization of American States, European Union, Carter Center and International Republican Institute all sent delegations.[4]
The automated vote system enabled the Electoral Council to announce the results within 2.5 hours of the polls closing.[4] After corroborating the results with the Carter Center, the losing candidate conceded several hours later.[4] Wait are you still talking about the firs time he was elected. This is one of the few things we have continually agreed about that it was fair. Hell, as I mentioned King of evil Hitler also won a fair election and also was popular. But regardless none of what you posted makes that election better then EVERY election EVER in the history of the USA. And where the issues come is not the first election it is the future ones and it is how he governed with absolute power and lack of transparency. You're all over the place at this point and not making a coherent argument. What issues do you have with which elections? When do you think the people of Venezuela didn't want Chavez in charge? That has never been my point. It is the point you are arguing because for some reason you think that him being popular at times makes him not a dictator or somehow good at governing. And you basically dodge everything else. I'm also still looking forward to why all USA elections ever haa not been fair or democratic.
You said "all dictators claim the people want them to have more power" as if the people didn't want him to have more power.
So I was demonstrating that the people did in fact want him to have more power. So it wasn't so much a claim, as it was a fact.
You guys are right that being elected doesn't preclude someone from being a dictator, but the elections are legitimate and don't carry even the caveats that exist in reports on Russian elections. So I'm not sure it should have the negative connotations you guys seem to be implying with the word.
As to the US elections, perhaps you could help me in this regard. Could you point me toward some reports from international election observing organizations on past US elections. Then we could compare.
I mean from long lines, to hanging chads, black voter disenfranchisement (do we even consider any before women and Black people could vote?), everything Democrats say happened in 2016, and so on. Pick the most legitimate US election you'd like and we can compare it to the least legitimate Chavez one.
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EPT
