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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On June 30 2018 03:29 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:It was mostly due to poor economic policy. There entire government was funded by selling oil. When the oil price dropped by half, they had half the budget for their government. But they never changed spending levels. And it has only snowballed since then. On June 30 2018 02:53 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 02:44 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 02:31 On_Slaught wrote:
I am far from being on xDaunts side, but lets not ignore what is obviously an EU crisis. Migration is literally the number one issue being discussed at the EU summit this week, even overriding Brexit. Entire political parties have risen and fallen in recent years on the back of the migrant crisis. There are countless stories about the impacts of immigration on a micro and macro level across Europe. It is a major issue which is far from being fixed.
Recognizing that there is a problem does not necessarily mean one denounces migrants. It just means there is a problem. It's not as if the west has anything to do with the conflicts the people are fleeing from right? That's the problem. That the people are painted as the problem rather than the western nations, systems, and circumstances that got them there. Recognizing that a problem exists is not mutually exclusive with assigning responsibility. Doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done there as it needs to be done here. The specifics is where the fight should be, not whether there is a problem. Especially when the problem is so self evident. Worth noting that addressing border and integration issues is only half the equation. Definitely needs to be time spent considering how to diminish peoples need to flee their homelands. That is a hard nut to crack, especially when it is due to violence in their country. We would need to send a peace keeping force down there and then we have a peace keeping force in a violent country. A refugee crisis can only really be managed, not stopped. One thing that would help is to find an effective way to slap down politicians that run on promising to stop the refugees from coming to the country. I agree this half is much harder. One step, though, is to not make things worse by destabilizing regions. Cant unring the bell but we can minimize this going forward. @others, that some people take a problem and use it to stir fear is demagogue/populist 101. That should be countered where possible. Our reaction shouldn't be to ignore the problem outright simply because the other side is blowing it out of proportion, though. That's all I'm trying to make clear. Arms blockages where an idea thrown around for a while. That the surrounding nations and others would starve the conflict by preventing arms and ammo from being supplied. That the conflict would starve itself out, while the outside world provided aid. To even propose an arms blockade just sounds insane to me. Has there been any point in the entirely of human history where one man wanted to kill another but didn't because he couldn't find a pointy stick? If people want something they will get it. If you forbid it someone else will smuggle it for them.
Its not a great solution, just one that people think might shorten conflicts. Lack of supplies and munitions can put a damper on offensives and morale. It is just an idea to control the scope and escalation of a conflict that no one wants to get involved with.
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On June 30 2018 03:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:01 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 02:52 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 01:35 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 00:39 iamthedave wrote:
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Didn't Chavez completely turn Venezuala around and make it an incredibly successful country during almost his entire tenure? I mean... that's why he became famous, wasn't it? Because he made socialism work for a bit?
Found this from a basic article about Maduro, discussing his predecessor: "Under his rule, Venezuela’s unemployment rate halved, income per capita more than doubled, the poverty rate fell by more than half, education improved, and infant mortality rates declined"
Doesn't sound like 'murdering his country' to me.
If your argument is going to be about short-sighted, short term economic policy that wasn't sustainable... well... I'm not sure that's the path to take, given that's all the US has done recently. My boss is from Venezuala, he came because of the violence, corruption and he will never go go back even to visit. I think you can reasonably say leadership there has done a terrible job and the country is in a much worse state then it was before them. They also slowly changed a democracy into a dictatorship. Anything about Trump is this line is impossible to know because he hasn't been around long enough. The comparison is not a good one. The secondhand story of someone (probably from a class of people socialism doesn't favor) weighed against the significant improvements in the quality of life for millions doesn't add up to much. It is more then a secondhand story. It is reality, all classes are suffering. Venezuela is having huge issues, violence is insane, economy is crumbling. There once solid heath care system is barely functional. If you are going to use a country as an example 2018 Venezuela is not the one I would pick. I'm surprised you would talk about it the way you have without some basic knowledge. "Hyperinflation in Nicolas Maduro’s socialist paradise is now running at 43,378 percent. It takes a full fifth of a minimum-wage worker’s monthly salary just to buy a cup of coffee in a cafe, Bloomberg reports. And it’s getting worse: If inflation continues as it has during the last three months, the rate would hit 482,153 percent. That’s a fast track to economic Armageddon" https://nypost.com/2018/02/22/venezuelans-are-starving-amid-economic-crisis-food-shortages/https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article207281029.htmlhttps://www.brookings.edu/research/venezuela-breaks-down-in-violence/http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-venezuela-refugees-20171019-htmlstory.htmlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Venezuelahttps://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/venezuelas-economy-is-collapsing-and-violence-is-rampant-its-solution-woo-tourists/2018/01/12/56363398-f492-11e7-9af7-a50bc3300042_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e978d335c949https://www.focal.ca/en/publications/focalpoint/370-december-2010-natasha-morales-e-enhttps://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-economy-trucks-widerimage/mad-max-violence-stalks-venezuelas-lawless-roads-idUSKBN1FT1G9 Of course western capitalist propaganda is going to tell you it's terrible and totally unrelated to their opposition to US domination. On June 30 2018 02:53 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 02:44 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
It's not as if the west has anything to do with the conflicts the people are fleeing from right? That's the problem. That the people are painted as the problem rather than the western nations, systems, and circumstances that got them there. Recognizing that a problem exists is not mutually exclusive with assigning responsibility. Doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done there as it needs to be done here. The specifics is where the fight should be, not whether there is a problem. Especially when the problem is so self evident. Worth noting that addressing border and integration issues is only half the equation. Definitely needs to be time spent considering how to diminish peoples need to flee their homelands. That is a hard nut to crack, especially when it is due to violence in their country. We would need to send a peace keeping force down there and then we have a peace keeping force in a violent country. A refugee crisis can only really be managed, not stopped. One thing that would help is to find an effective way to slap down politicians that run on promising to stop the refugees from coming to the country. I agree this half is much harder. One step, though, is to not make things worse by destabilizing regions. Cant unring the bell but we can minimize this going forward. @others, that some people take a problem and use it to stir fear is demagogue/populist 101. That should be countered where possible. Our reaction shouldn't be to ignore the problem outright simply because the other side is blowing it out of proportion, though. That's all I'm trying to make clear. My point was that it's dangerous when it's a small minority of people who even recognize what the problems are, while the majority is easily manipulated into believing it's the victims faults. Except it is not capitalistic propaganda. I know at least 20 people from their and they all say the same things. We have a lot of refugee's from their in my cities. These are not the upper class mad that the wealth was spread out or what ever bullshit you believe. You know nothing about it and are the one spreading propaganda. The elite their are doing great, as long as they support the government. They are doing as well or better then our elite. That country is running about as well as East Gemany pre the wall coming down, or mother Russia nearing the end of the cold war. I honestly can't tell if you are trolling on purpose or completely ignorant. You seem to be talking about Maduro and taking no consideration for the economic or global conditions. So I don't see how we can continue. You are using quotes from one dictator on the performance of his predecessor to make your argument. Then now you are dismissing the actions of the person who's quote you are trusting. Perhaps it is time to do some basic research on your own. You :"found this from a basic article about Maduro, discussing his predecessor: "Under his rule, Venezuela’s unemployment rate halved, income per capita more than doubled, the poverty rate fell by more than half, education improved, and infant mortality rates declined" " Yes while oil was super high there was some trickle down to the poor. There is no way of saying that wouldn't be true with a different form of government. What is clear is that without that cash cow it is failing miserably and the poor are the ones suffering not the rich. Way to be socialists! If it's true that the poor are suffering and not the rich, and that the rich aren't rich people who with the support of the US prevented the nationalization/appropriation to the people of their resources and instead are allies of the Maduro, and the current economic decisions are the fault of a dead man then it's not socialism that's the culprit. The argument people are making isn't even against socialism (as an economic system), it's the belief that it's impossible to have better checks and balances on corrupt humans in a socialist system than a capitalist one. I think Trump's fucking that illusion up for everyone. I'm not against socialism, I'm against totalitarian dictators. I'm also against shitty ran countries who make it worse for their citizens. I'm in the middle of watching your video and it is the same bullshit you would see from a far right person saying that putin is doing great for Russia. I mean at 12:45 he talks about the human develpment Index and how well Maduro is doing. This is not even true. I'm not sure I'll have time to fact check this whole video but I hope you are not watching this thinking it is true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index His claims on Homelessness completely wrong. https://homelessworldcup.org/homelessness-statistics/
I'm not sure you're listening close enough (could be partly my fault if you're not used to listening at 2x speed), but those don't refute the claims in the video. I mean they don't present the information in an easily accessible way for the purposes of fact checking the specific statements, but they don't conflict, they confirm.
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On June 30 2018 03:00 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 02:53 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 02:44 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 02:31 On_Slaught wrote:
I am far from being on xDaunts side, but lets not ignore what is obviously an EU crisis. Migration is literally the number one issue being discussed at the EU summit this week, even overriding Brexit. Entire political parties have risen and fallen in recent years on the back of the migrant crisis. There are countless stories about the impacts of immigration on a micro and macro level across Europe. It is a major issue which is far from being fixed.
Recognizing that there is a problem does not necessarily mean one denounces migrants. It just means there is a problem. It's not as if the west has anything to do with the conflicts the people are fleeing from right? That's the problem. That the people are painted as the problem rather than the western nations, systems, and circumstances that got them there. Recognizing that a problem exists is not mutually exclusive with assigning responsibility. Doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done there as it needs to be done here. The specifics is where the fight should be, not whether there is a problem. Especially when the problem is so self evident. Worth noting that addressing border and integration issues is only half the equation. Definitely needs to be time spent considering how to diminish peoples need to flee their homelands. That is a hard nut to crack, especially when it is due to violence in their country. We would need to send a peace keeping force down there and then we have a peace keeping force in a violent country. A refugee crisis can only really be managed, not stopped. One thing that would help is to find an effective way to slap down politicians that run on promising to stop the refugees from coming to the country. I agree this half is much harder. One step, though, is to not make things worse by destabilizing regions. Cant unring the bell but we can minimize this going forward. @others, that some people take a problem and use it to stir fear is demagogue/populist 101. That should be countered where possible. Our reaction shouldn't be to ignore the problem outright simply because the other side is blowing it out of proportion, though. That's all I'm trying to make clear. I agree with this to an extent. The problem that I have with it is that for every 10 issues that the right wing bring up to do with immigrants, maybe 1 is valid. its just nonsense about taking our jobs and healthcare, nonsense about claiming benefits and housing, and then the occasional valid point about how the demographic make up of small towns is changing radically and segregating leading to local tension. When its all blown out of proportion to the incredible extent that it is, and using outright lies, not just mildly deceptive talking points, it becomes impossible to engage the argument on that level. Put another way, there's no crisis, except that which the right wing has created using lies. There are small local issues that need to be looked at but there's no way you can call it a crisis. Its similar to the 'anti-semitism crisis' that hit the Labour party in the UK where there were about 5 cases of antisemitism but the media called it a crisis to get their job done. A crisis is where everything is going to turn to shit if you don't immediately solve the problem. I don't see that with immigrants in the EU right now.
There is undoubtedly a political crisis in the EU right now due to migration, which is both the result and the cause of numerous nationwide crises e.g Merkel's government is close to collapse. It needs to be acknowledged that this is the specific form the 'migration crisis' takes in order to show why it is not a problem that the US will face. The US's institutions are not that of the EU's, the two aren't comparable and the US will not suffer a political crisis over migration in the way that the EU will.
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On June 30 2018 03:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:29 Gorsameth wrote:On June 30 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:It was mostly due to poor economic policy. There entire government was funded by selling oil. When the oil price dropped by half, they had half the budget for their government. But they never changed spending levels. And it has only snowballed since then. On June 30 2018 02:53 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 02:44 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 02:31 On_Slaught wrote:
I am far from being on xDaunts side, but lets not ignore what is obviously an EU crisis. Migration is literally the number one issue being discussed at the EU summit this week, even overriding Brexit. Entire political parties have risen and fallen in recent years on the back of the migrant crisis. There are countless stories about the impacts of immigration on a micro and macro level across Europe. It is a major issue which is far from being fixed.
Recognizing that there is a problem does not necessarily mean one denounces migrants. It just means there is a problem. It's not as if the west has anything to do with the conflicts the people are fleeing from right? That's the problem. That the people are painted as the problem rather than the western nations, systems, and circumstances that got them there. Recognizing that a problem exists is not mutually exclusive with assigning responsibility. Doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done there as it needs to be done here. The specifics is where the fight should be, not whether there is a problem. Especially when the problem is so self evident. Worth noting that addressing border and integration issues is only half the equation. Definitely needs to be time spent considering how to diminish peoples need to flee their homelands. That is a hard nut to crack, especially when it is due to violence in their country. We would need to send a peace keeping force down there and then we have a peace keeping force in a violent country. A refugee crisis can only really be managed, not stopped. One thing that would help is to find an effective way to slap down politicians that run on promising to stop the refugees from coming to the country. I agree this half is much harder. One step, though, is to not make things worse by destabilizing regions. Cant unring the bell but we can minimize this going forward. @others, that some people take a problem and use it to stir fear is demagogue/populist 101. That should be countered where possible. Our reaction shouldn't be to ignore the problem outright simply because the other side is blowing it out of proportion, though. That's all I'm trying to make clear. Arms blockages where an idea thrown around for a while. That the surrounding nations and others would starve the conflict by preventing arms and ammo from being supplied. That the conflict would starve itself out, while the outside world provided aid. To even propose an arms blockade just sounds insane to me. Has there been any point in the entirely of human history where one man wanted to kill another but didn't because he couldn't find a pointy stick? If people want something they will get it. If you forbid it someone else will smuggle it for them. Its not a great solution, just one that people think might shorten conflicts. Lack of supplies and munitions can put a damper on offensives and morale. It is just an idea to control the scope and escalation of a conflict that no one wants to get involved with. "I really want to kill you but I can't seem to find any bullets so lets call it a draw".
Sorry, I'm not buying it.
the obvious first step would have been to not create the power vacuum in the first place. Step two would be to not leave after creating said power vacuum and step 3 would be killing the emerging threat before it can establish itself and draw in further support.
If you want to end war in the middle east you stop bombing it and instead start (re)building its industry. Once a country has a working economy the price of war becomes to high, there is to much to lose.
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On June 30 2018 03:46 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:00 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 30 2018 02:53 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 02:44 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 02:31 On_Slaught wrote:
I am far from being on xDaunts side, but lets not ignore what is obviously an EU crisis. Migration is literally the number one issue being discussed at the EU summit this week, even overriding Brexit. Entire political parties have risen and fallen in recent years on the back of the migrant crisis. There are countless stories about the impacts of immigration on a micro and macro level across Europe. It is a major issue which is far from being fixed.
Recognizing that there is a problem does not necessarily mean one denounces migrants. It just means there is a problem. It's not as if the west has anything to do with the conflicts the people are fleeing from right? That's the problem. That the people are painted as the problem rather than the western nations, systems, and circumstances that got them there. Recognizing that a problem exists is not mutually exclusive with assigning responsibility. Doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done there as it needs to be done here. The specifics is where the fight should be, not whether there is a problem. Especially when the problem is so self evident. Worth noting that addressing border and integration issues is only half the equation. Definitely needs to be time spent considering how to diminish peoples need to flee their homelands. That is a hard nut to crack, especially when it is due to violence in their country. We would need to send a peace keeping force down there and then we have a peace keeping force in a violent country. A refugee crisis can only really be managed, not stopped. One thing that would help is to find an effective way to slap down politicians that run on promising to stop the refugees from coming to the country. I agree this half is much harder. One step, though, is to not make things worse by destabilizing regions. Cant unring the bell but we can minimize this going forward. @others, that some people take a problem and use it to stir fear is demagogue/populist 101. That should be countered where possible. Our reaction shouldn't be to ignore the problem outright simply because the other side is blowing it out of proportion, though. That's all I'm trying to make clear. I agree with this to an extent. The problem that I have with it is that for every 10 issues that the right wing bring up to do with immigrants, maybe 1 is valid. its just nonsense about taking our jobs and healthcare, nonsense about claiming benefits and housing, and then the occasional valid point about how the demographic make up of small towns is changing radically and segregating leading to local tension. When its all blown out of proportion to the incredible extent that it is, and using outright lies, not just mildly deceptive talking points, it becomes impossible to engage the argument on that level. Put another way, there's no crisis, except that which the right wing has created using lies. There are small local issues that need to be looked at but there's no way you can call it a crisis. Its similar to the 'anti-semitism crisis' that hit the Labour party in the UK where there were about 5 cases of antisemitism but the media called it a crisis to get their job done. A crisis is where everything is going to turn to shit if you don't immediately solve the problem. I don't see that with immigrants in the EU right now. There is undoubtedly a political crisis in the EU right now due to migration, which is both the result and the cause of numerous nationwide crises e.g Merkel's government is close to collapse. It needs to be acknowledged that this is the specific form the 'migration crisis' takes in order to show why it is not a problem that the US will face. The US's institutions are not that of the EU's, the two aren't comparable and the US will not suffer a political crisis over migration in the way that the EU will.
Your language is quite specific and actually almost agrees with what I have said.
There is a political crisis due to migration (although I would argue its due to a misrepresentation of migration - not migration itself).
This is not a migration crisis but a political crisis fed not by migration but by right wing lies.
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On June 30 2018 03:49 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:46 kollin wrote:On June 30 2018 03:00 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 30 2018 02:53 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 02:44 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 02:31 On_Slaught wrote:
I am far from being on xDaunts side, but lets not ignore what is obviously an EU crisis. Migration is literally the number one issue being discussed at the EU summit this week, even overriding Brexit. Entire political parties have risen and fallen in recent years on the back of the migrant crisis. There are countless stories about the impacts of immigration on a micro and macro level across Europe. It is a major issue which is far from being fixed.
Recognizing that there is a problem does not necessarily mean one denounces migrants. It just means there is a problem. It's not as if the west has anything to do with the conflicts the people are fleeing from right? That's the problem. That the people are painted as the problem rather than the western nations, systems, and circumstances that got them there. Recognizing that a problem exists is not mutually exclusive with assigning responsibility. Doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done there as it needs to be done here. The specifics is where the fight should be, not whether there is a problem. Especially when the problem is so self evident. Worth noting that addressing border and integration issues is only half the equation. Definitely needs to be time spent considering how to diminish peoples need to flee their homelands. That is a hard nut to crack, especially when it is due to violence in their country. We would need to send a peace keeping force down there and then we have a peace keeping force in a violent country. A refugee crisis can only really be managed, not stopped. One thing that would help is to find an effective way to slap down politicians that run on promising to stop the refugees from coming to the country. I agree this half is much harder. One step, though, is to not make things worse by destabilizing regions. Cant unring the bell but we can minimize this going forward. @others, that some people take a problem and use it to stir fear is demagogue/populist 101. That should be countered where possible. Our reaction shouldn't be to ignore the problem outright simply because the other side is blowing it out of proportion, though. That's all I'm trying to make clear. I agree with this to an extent. The problem that I have with it is that for every 10 issues that the right wing bring up to do with immigrants, maybe 1 is valid. its just nonsense about taking our jobs and healthcare, nonsense about claiming benefits and housing, and then the occasional valid point about how the demographic make up of small towns is changing radically and segregating leading to local tension. When its all blown out of proportion to the incredible extent that it is, and using outright lies, not just mildly deceptive talking points, it becomes impossible to engage the argument on that level. Put another way, there's no crisis, except that which the right wing has created using lies. There are small local issues that need to be looked at but there's no way you can call it a crisis. Its similar to the 'anti-semitism crisis' that hit the Labour party in the UK where there were about 5 cases of antisemitism but the media called it a crisis to get their job done. A crisis is where everything is going to turn to shit if you don't immediately solve the problem. I don't see that with immigrants in the EU right now. There is undoubtedly a political crisis in the EU right now due to migration, which is both the result and the cause of numerous nationwide crises e.g Merkel's government is close to collapse. It needs to be acknowledged that this is the specific form the 'migration crisis' takes in order to show why it is not a problem that the US will face. The US's institutions are not that of the EU's, the two aren't comparable and the US will not suffer a political crisis over migration in the way that the EU will. Your language is quite specific and actually almost agrees with what I have said. There is a political crisis due to migration (although I would argue its due to a misrepresentation of migration - not migration itself). This is not a migration crisis but a political crisis fed not by migration but by right wing lies. I agree with you for the most part but I would mention that hundreds of thousands of people showing up at your border looking for aid is a crisis all on its own, even without right wing 'fear of the outsider' influence.
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Wait, GH, you aren't actually defending Maduro and claiming that what's going on in Venezuela isn't that bad, are you?
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On June 30 2018 03:54 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:53 xDaunt wrote:
Wait, GH, you aren't actually defending Maduro and claiming that what's going on in Venezuela isn't that bad, are you? No, he's claiming that it is good, not that it isn't that bad. It is unbelievable.
Yeah, I'm starting to realize that as I watch this insane video on the John Oliver piece that he posted.
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On June 30 2018 03:53 xDaunt wrote:
Wait, GH, you aren't actually defending Maduro and claiming that what's going on in Venezuela isn't that bad, are you?
It is hard to follow, but don’t believe he is defending Maduro. I believe he is defending the pre- Maduro era/crisis era.
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On June 30 2018 03:53 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:35 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:01 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Of course western capitalist propaganda is going to tell you it's terrible and totally unrelated to their opposition to US domination. On June 30 2018 02:53 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:48 Plansix wrote:
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That is a hard nut to crack, especially when it is due to violence in their country. We would need to send a peace keeping force down there and then we have a peace keeping force in a violent country. A refugee crisis can only really be managed, not stopped. One thing that would help is to find an effective way to slap down politicians that run on promising to stop the refugees from coming to the country. I agree this half is much harder. One step, though, is to not make things worse by destabilizing regions. Cant unring the bell but we can minimize this going forward. @others, that some people take a problem and use it to stir fear is demagogue/populist 101. That should be countered where possible. Our reaction shouldn't be to ignore the problem outright simply because the other side is blowing it out of proportion, though. That's all I'm trying to make clear. My point was that it's dangerous when it's a small minority of people who even recognize what the problems are, while the majority is easily manipulated into believing it's the victims faults. Except it is not capitalistic propaganda. I know at least 20 people from their and they all say the same things. We have a lot of refugee's from their in my cities. These are not the upper class mad that the wealth was spread out or what ever bullshit you believe. You know nothing about it and are the one spreading propaganda. The elite their are doing great, as long as they support the government. They are doing as well or better then our elite. That country is running about as well as East Gemany pre the wall coming down, or mother Russia nearing the end of the cold war. I honestly can't tell if you are trolling on purpose or completely ignorant. You seem to be talking about Maduro and taking no consideration for the economic or global conditions. So I don't see how we can continue. You are using quotes from one dictator on the performance of his predecessor to make your argument. Then now you are dismissing the actions of the person who's quote you are trusting. Perhaps it is time to do some basic research on your own. You :"found this from a basic article about Maduro, discussing his predecessor: "Under his rule, Venezuela’s unemployment rate halved, income per capita more than doubled, the poverty rate fell by more than half, education improved, and infant mortality rates declined" " Yes while oil was super high there was some trickle down to the poor. There is no way of saying that wouldn't be true with a different form of government. What is clear is that without that cash cow it is failing miserably and the poor are the ones suffering not the rich. Way to be socialists! If it's true that the poor are suffering and not the rich, and that the rich aren't rich people who with the support of the US prevented the nationalization/appropriation to the people of their resources and instead are allies of the Maduro, and the current economic decisions are the fault of a dead man then it's not socialism that's the culprit. The argument people are making isn't even against socialism (as an economic system), it's the belief that it's impossible to have better checks and balances on corrupt humans in a socialist system than a capitalist one. I think Trump's fucking that illusion up for everyone. I'm not against socialism, I'm against totalitarian dictators. I'm also against shitty ran countries who make it worse for their citizens. I'm in the middle of watching your video and it is the same bullshit you would see from a far right person saying that putin is doing great for Russia. I mean at 12:45 he talks about the human develpment Index and how well Maduro is doing. This is not even true. I'm not sure I'll have time to fact check this whole video but I hope you are not watching this thinking it is true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index His claims on Homelessness completely wrong. https://homelessworldcup.org/homelessness-statistics/ I'm not sure you're listening close enough (could be partly my fault if you're not used to listening at 2x speed), but those don't refute the claims in the video. I mean they don't present the information in an easily accessible way for the purposes of fact checking the specific statements, but they don't conflict, they confirm. It is very funny to me that you spend so much time talking about the "right and their propaganda" and blah blah. And you can't see that this video is clearly blatant left wing propaganda. Please find some actual people from Venezuela and talk to them about Maduro then come back on here and let me know what you think. Please talk to them outside of the country so they don't have to worry about their personal safety. Yes the Right wing dictator there was horrible. Guess what so is the left wing one. In the end they all only care about themselves their power and influence they just package it different. Even better, please immigrate there, live for a year or two and tell me how wonderful it is!
Did you go back and realize that the parts you thought were wrong were actually true? Is that why we've shifted back to anecdotal stories from expats?
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On June 30 2018 03:49 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:46 kollin wrote:On June 30 2018 03:00 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 30 2018 02:53 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 30 2018 02:44 On_Slaught wrote:On June 30 2018 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 02:31 On_Slaught wrote:
I am far from being on xDaunts side, but lets not ignore what is obviously an EU crisis. Migration is literally the number one issue being discussed at the EU summit this week, even overriding Brexit. Entire political parties have risen and fallen in recent years on the back of the migrant crisis. There are countless stories about the impacts of immigration on a micro and macro level across Europe. It is a major issue which is far from being fixed.
Recognizing that there is a problem does not necessarily mean one denounces migrants. It just means there is a problem. It's not as if the west has anything to do with the conflicts the people are fleeing from right? That's the problem. That the people are painted as the problem rather than the western nations, systems, and circumstances that got them there. Recognizing that a problem exists is not mutually exclusive with assigning responsibility. Doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done there as it needs to be done here. The specifics is where the fight should be, not whether there is a problem. Especially when the problem is so self evident. Worth noting that addressing border and integration issues is only half the equation. Definitely needs to be time spent considering how to diminish peoples need to flee their homelands. That is a hard nut to crack, especially when it is due to violence in their country. We would need to send a peace keeping force down there and then we have a peace keeping force in a violent country. A refugee crisis can only really be managed, not stopped. One thing that would help is to find an effective way to slap down politicians that run on promising to stop the refugees from coming to the country. I agree this half is much harder. One step, though, is to not make things worse by destabilizing regions. Cant unring the bell but we can minimize this going forward. @others, that some people take a problem and use it to stir fear is demagogue/populist 101. That should be countered where possible. Our reaction shouldn't be to ignore the problem outright simply because the other side is blowing it out of proportion, though. That's all I'm trying to make clear. I agree with this to an extent. The problem that I have with it is that for every 10 issues that the right wing bring up to do with immigrants, maybe 1 is valid. its just nonsense about taking our jobs and healthcare, nonsense about claiming benefits and housing, and then the occasional valid point about how the demographic make up of small towns is changing radically and segregating leading to local tension. When its all blown out of proportion to the incredible extent that it is, and using outright lies, not just mildly deceptive talking points, it becomes impossible to engage the argument on that level. Put another way, there's no crisis, except that which the right wing has created using lies. There are small local issues that need to be looked at but there's no way you can call it a crisis. Its similar to the 'anti-semitism crisis' that hit the Labour party in the UK where there were about 5 cases of antisemitism but the media called it a crisis to get their job done. A crisis is where everything is going to turn to shit if you don't immediately solve the problem. I don't see that with immigrants in the EU right now. There is undoubtedly a political crisis in the EU right now due to migration, which is both the result and the cause of numerous nationwide crises e.g Merkel's government is close to collapse. It needs to be acknowledged that this is the specific form the 'migration crisis' takes in order to show why it is not a problem that the US will face. The US's institutions are not that of the EU's, the two aren't comparable and the US will not suffer a political crisis over migration in the way that the EU will. Your language is quite specific and actually almost agrees with what I have said. There is a political crisis due to migration (although I would argue its due to a misrepresentation of migration - not migration itself). This is not a migration crisis but a political crisis fed not by migration but by right wing lies.
I do mostly agree with what you've said, but I think it's worth acknowledging that migration is causing a political crisis in the EU because of the inadequacy of the EU structurally in dealing with thousands of migrants turning up at countries that don't want to accept them, or as many. This is not possibly a crisis that the US could face because the European crisis has its roots in supranationality. For Europe migration is a foreign policy issue constrained by the immediate demands of domestic politics, while for the US it is purely a domestic issue (though of course influenced by foreign events and US foreign policy e.g wars).
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On June 30 2018 04:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:53 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:35 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:01 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Of course western capitalist propaganda is going to tell you it's terrible and totally unrelated to their opposition to US domination.
[quote]
My point was that it's dangerous when it's a small minority of people who even recognize what the problems are, while the majority is easily manipulated into believing it's the victims faults. Except it is not capitalistic propaganda. I know at least 20 people from their and they all say the same things. We have a lot of refugee's from their in my cities. These are not the upper class mad that the wealth was spread out or what ever bullshit you believe. You know nothing about it and are the one spreading propaganda. The elite their are doing great, as long as they support the government. They are doing as well or better then our elite. That country is running about as well as East Gemany pre the wall coming down, or mother Russia nearing the end of the cold war. I honestly can't tell if you are trolling on purpose or completely ignorant. You seem to be talking about Maduro and taking no consideration for the economic or global conditions. So I don't see how we can continue. You are using quotes from one dictator on the performance of his predecessor to make your argument. Then now you are dismissing the actions of the person who's quote you are trusting. Perhaps it is time to do some basic research on your own. You :"found this from a basic article about Maduro, discussing his predecessor: "Under his rule, Venezuela’s unemployment rate halved, income per capita more than doubled, the poverty rate fell by more than half, education improved, and infant mortality rates declined" " Yes while oil was super high there was some trickle down to the poor. There is no way of saying that wouldn't be true with a different form of government. What is clear is that without that cash cow it is failing miserably and the poor are the ones suffering not the rich. Way to be socialists! If it's true that the poor are suffering and not the rich, and that the rich aren't rich people who with the support of the US prevented the nationalization/appropriation to the people of their resources and instead are allies of the Maduro, and the current economic decisions are the fault of a dead man then it's not socialism that's the culprit. The argument people are making isn't even against socialism (as an economic system), it's the belief that it's impossible to have better checks and balances on corrupt humans in a socialist system than a capitalist one. I think Trump's fucking that illusion up for everyone. I'm not against socialism, I'm against totalitarian dictators. I'm also against shitty ran countries who make it worse for their citizens. I'm in the middle of watching your video and it is the same bullshit you would see from a far right person saying that putin is doing great for Russia. I mean at 12:45 he talks about the human develpment Index and how well Maduro is doing. This is not even true. I'm not sure I'll have time to fact check this whole video but I hope you are not watching this thinking it is true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index His claims on Homelessness completely wrong. https://homelessworldcup.org/homelessness-statistics/ I'm not sure you're listening close enough (could be partly my fault if you're not used to listening at 2x speed), but those don't refute the claims in the video. I mean they don't present the information in an easily accessible way for the purposes of fact checking the specific statements, but they don't conflict, they confirm. It is very funny to me that you spend so much time talking about the "right and there propaganda" and blah blah. And you can't see that this video is clearly blatant left wing propaganda. Please find some actual people from Venezuela and talk to them about Maduro then come back on here and let me know what you think. Please talk to them outside of the country so they don't have to worry about their personal safety. Yes the Right wing dictator there was horrible. Guess what so is the left wing one. In the end they all only care about themselves their power and influence they just package it different. Even better, please immigrate there, live for a year or two and tell me how wonderful it is! Did you go back and realize that the parts you thought were wrong were actually true? Is that why we've shifted back to anecdotal stories from expats? Nope I realized you were so deluded that any fact that I show you, you would say is untrue or from the "right wing" media. So I thought if you left your home and talked to a bunch of people who have real life experience living their it might open your mind to the FACT that it is not a right wing conspiracy to say that Maduro is a bad person ruining the country, that is actually what is happening.
I don't know much at all about the current situation so for the sake of argument I'm going to assume that you're right.
Can I ask at what point Venezuela was anything but ruined?
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He flips between, the video he posted is like 5 mins Chavez and the rest Maduro.
The assertion was that Chavez killed the country, but your argument has centered on how Maduro ruined it while ignoring the international assassination attempts and oil cartel and the various other parasitic capitalist enterprises, sanctions, and so on.
Rather than even talk about Maduro with people that have swallowed the western propaganda whole, I'd wanted to see if there was an actual argument for Chavez "killing his country"
On June 30 2018 04:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2018 03:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:53 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:35 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 30 2018 03:01 JimmiC wrote:On June 30 2018 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Of course western capitalist propaganda is going to tell you it's terrible and totally unrelated to their opposition to US domination.
[quote]
My point was that it's dangerous when it's a small minority of people who even recognize what the problems are, while the majority is easily manipulated into believing it's the victims faults. Except it is not capitalistic propaganda. I know at least 20 people from their and they all say the same things. We have a lot of refugee's from their in my cities. These are not the upper class mad that the wealth was spread out or what ever bullshit you believe. You know nothing about it and are the one spreading propaganda. The elite their are doing great, as long as they support the government. They are doing as well or better then our elite. That country is running about as well as East Gemany pre the wall coming down, or mother Russia nearing the end of the cold war. I honestly can't tell if you are trolling on purpose or completely ignorant. You seem to be talking about Maduro and taking no consideration for the economic or global conditions. So I don't see how we can continue. You are using quotes from one dictator on the performance of his predecessor to make your argument. Then now you are dismissing the actions of the person who's quote you are trusting. Perhaps it is time to do some basic research on your own. You :"found this from a basic article about Maduro, discussing his predecessor: "Under his rule, Venezuela’s unemployment rate halved, income per capita more than doubled, the poverty rate fell by more than half, education improved, and infant mortality rates declined" " Yes while oil was super high there was some trickle down to the poor. There is no way of saying that wouldn't be true with a different form of government. What is clear is that without that cash cow it is failing miserably and the poor are the ones suffering not the rich. Way to be socialists! If it's true that the poor are suffering and not the rich, and that the rich aren't rich people who with the support of the US prevented the nationalization/appropriation to the people of their resources and instead are allies of the Maduro, and the current economic decisions are the fault of a dead man then it's not socialism that's the culprit. The argument people are making isn't even against socialism (as an economic system), it's the belief that it's impossible to have better checks and balances on corrupt humans in a socialist system than a capitalist one. I think Trump's fucking that illusion up for everyone. I'm not against socialism, I'm against totalitarian dictators. I'm also against shitty ran countries who make it worse for their citizens. I'm in the middle of watching your video and it is the same bullshit you would see from a far right person saying that putin is doing great for Russia. I mean at 12:45 he talks about the human develpment Index and how well Maduro is doing. This is not even true. I'm not sure I'll have time to fact check this whole video but I hope you are not watching this thinking it is true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index His claims on Homelessness completely wrong. https://homelessworldcup.org/homelessness-statistics/ I'm not sure you're listening close enough (could be partly my fault if you're not used to listening at 2x speed), but those don't refute the claims in the video. I mean they don't present the information in an easily accessible way for the purposes of fact checking the specific statements, but they don't conflict, they confirm. It is very funny to me that you spend so much time talking about the "right and there propaganda" and blah blah. And you can't see that this video is clearly blatant left wing propaganda. Please find some actual people from Venezuela and talk to them about Maduro then come back on here and let me know what you think. Please talk to them outside of the country so they don't have to worry about their personal safety. Yes the Right wing dictator there was horrible. Guess what so is the left wing one. In the end they all only care about themselves their power and influence they just package it different. Even better, please immigrate there, live for a year or two and tell me how wonderful it is! Did you go back and realize that the parts you thought were wrong were actually true? Is that why we've shifted back to anecdotal stories from expats? Nope I realized you were so deluded that any fact that I show you, you would say is untrue or from the "right wing" media. So I thought if you left your home and talked to a bunch of people who have real life experience living their it might open your mind to the FACT that it is not a right wing conspiracy to say that Maduro is a bad person ruining the country, that is actually what is happening.
I'm no fan of the UN (in practice rather than theory) but you called out the video for being totally wrong and bogus and cited a statistic which the link you gave showed was 100% accurate. Then you just resorting to calling me delusional and impenetrable by facts when you've literally demonstrated such a thing in your very own posts.
You were presented with a fact, denied it, found a source which confirmed the fact, posted it as a citation of your rightness and my wrongness, and now instead of recognizing that, you've called ME delusional and accused me of being unwilling to accept facts.
You realize that?
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Let's be perfectly clear on what happened in Venezuela under Chavez. He seized all of the foreign-owned oil assets like a good commie and then promptly ran them all into the ground as commies tend to do. The fact that a country as oil rich as Venezuela failed as badly as it has is about as damning of an indictment as you can make on radical socialist policies such as those implemented by Chavez and Maduro.
And the fact that people still revere Chavez is proof enough for me that are certain peoples that we just don't want coming to the US. Anyone who thinks that what Chavez did is a good idea is not compatible with a modern Western state like the US. Property rights matter when it comes to sustained economic success. The unfortunate reality is that Latin American states have a rather poor track record of understanding this. Like I mentioned earlier, I worry that we may see this continue when Obrador takes over Mexico. So yeah, build that wall.
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On June 30 2018 04:04 xDaunt wrote:
Let's be perfectly clear on what happened in Venezuela under Chavez. He seized all of the foreign-owned oil assets like a good commie and then promptly ran them all into the ground as commies tend to do. The fact that a country as oil rich as Venezuela failed as badly as it has is about as damning of an indictment as you can make on radical socialist policies such as those implemented by Chavez and Maduro.
And the fact that people still revere Chavez is proof enough for me that are certain peoples that we just don't want coming to the US. Anyone who thinks that what Chavez did is a good idea is not compatible with a modern Western state like the US. Property rights matter when it comes to sustained economic success. The unfortunate reality is that Latin American states have a rather poor track record of understanding this. Like I mentioned earlier, I worry that we may see this continue when Obrador takes over Mexico. So yeah, build that wall.
You do understand that poor people in South America have absolutely no obligation to run their lives according to the American values that would see them live their whole lives with nothing, right?
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EPT
