Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On June 29 2018 22:28 xDaunt wrote: Let’s just presume that we abolish ICE. What next? What do we put in its place, if anything?
Go back to not having it. Immigration isn't a big problem. If anything we have a refugee issue at the border. ICE doesn't really do much for that in the first place. The little it does can be put back under control of the Customs and Border Protection. It a wasteful and redundant organization you should probably be in favor of abolishing anyway.
Of course I would go further, but it would be no big deal at all if they ceased existing tomorrow (other than people lost in their system perhaps).
Refugees are a problem. Illegal immigration is a problem. And if Obrador becomes the next Chavez, we are going to be fucked if we don’t lock down the southern border.
What is the data that shows we have a problem? Everything I've seen is that migration comes in waves throughout US history. The from South America wave looks done - most new immigrants are from Asia now, right?
What, are you not paying to attention to the mess over in Europe? Yeah, the Europeans are clearly having a great time with the massive influx of refugees and migrants arriving at their shores.
Also, Trump is clearly the 'next Chavez'.
I expect better than this from you. Chavez murdered his country and Maduro is putting the final nails in the coffin. Comparing Trump to Chavez is simply retarded.
Didn't Chavez completely turn Venezuala around and make it an incredibly successful country during almost his entire tenure? I mean... that's why he became famous, wasn't it? Because he made socialism work for a bit?
Found this from a basic article about Maduro, discussing his predecessor: "Under his rule, Venezuela’s unemployment rate halved, income per capita more than doubled, the poverty rate fell by more than half, education improved, and infant mortality rates declined"
Doesn't sound like 'murdering his country' to me.
If your argument is going to be about short-sighted, short term economic policy that wasn't sustainable... well... I'm not sure that's the path to take, given that's all the US has done recently.
My boss is from Venezuala, he came because of the violence, corruption and he will never go go back even to visit. I think you can reasonably say leadership there has done a terrible job and the country is in a much worse state then it was before them. They also slowly changed a democracy into a dictatorship.
Anything about Trump is this line is impossible to know because he hasn't been around long enough. The comparison is not a good one.
GH lets go back to my first point. I am talking about the country now, I have been since the start, you putting this Chavez killed the country thing is you not me.
Second my links did not disprove my point, they show how shitty it is there. And there is no way they are ranked 6th when they are not in the top 50. As for all the other "facts" it spouts it does not provide sources.
Now you're doubling down instead of accepting that you're wrong.
Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
The US would just (continue) spending millions destabilizing and trying to assassinate their leader if they started doing too well again. Please stop pretending the US isn't just acting in it's own selfish economic interest and pretending anything we did in SA had anything to do with humanitarianism
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
The only problem I have with their government is how they closed their own border and prevented people from seeking food and services from neighboring countries. That part isn’t great. But if the nation wants to struggle their way through it, the US should stay out of the way beyond providing emergency humanitarian aid.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts above are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts just above this one are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
Thank you for that
Venezuela is a democratic country. Maduro is a reflection of Venezuela's people and its institutions. So yes, I feel quite comfortable indicting both.
Your comfort with drawing hard inferences from soft signs in pursuit of writing off an entire nation of people is well-documented, there's no need to reiterate.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts just above this one are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
Thank you for that
Venezuela is a democratic country. Maduro is a reflection of Venezuela's people and its institutions. So yes, I feel quite comfortable indicting both.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts just above this one are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
Thank you for that
Venezuela is a democratic country. Maduro is a reflection of Venezuela's people and its institutions. So yes, I feel quite comfortable indicting both.
They are as democratic as Russia.
Yep. And Putin is also a reflection of the Russian people. I'll say the same thing about the Chinese and China. They like their totalitarian leadership with the trappings of quasi-democracy.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts just above this one are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
Thank you for that
Venezuela is a democratic country. Maduro is a reflection of Venezuela's people and its institutions. So yes, I feel quite comfortable indicting both.
They are as democratic as Russia.
Yep. And Putin is also a reflection of the Russian people. I'll say the same thing about the Chinese and China. They like their totalitarian leadership with the trappings of quasi-democracy.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts just above this one are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
Thank you for that
Venezuela is a democratic country. Maduro is a reflection of Venezuela's people and its institutions. So yes, I feel quite comfortable indicting both.
They are as democratic as Russia.
Yep. And Putin is also a reflection of the Russian people. I'll say the same thing about the Chinese and China. They like their totalitarian leadership with the trappings of quasi-democracy.
It is reflective of section of Russian people that openly support Putin. The ones who don’t support him don’t speak out of fear and their numbers are unknown.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts just above this one are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
Thank you for that
Venezuela is a democratic country. Maduro is a reflection of Venezuela's people and its institutions. So yes, I feel quite comfortable indicting both.
They are as democratic as Russia.
Yep. And Putin is also a reflection of the Russian people. I'll say the same thing about the Chinese and China. They like their totalitarian leadership with the trappings of quasi-democracy.
It is reflective of section of Russian people that openly support Putin. The ones who don’t support him don’t speak out of fear and their numbers are unknown.
Do you doubt that Putin has majority support in Russia? I don't. I'm sure that there are dissenters, but it doesn't change the fact that Putin reflects the majority of Russians.
Just to be clear, y'all aren't imprinting your own values upon the peoples of these other countries, are you? Not everyone accepts the superiority of our western sensibilities, and, consequently, they have very different ideas regarding the relationship between the individual and the state than we do.
Those types of indices don't really measure "democracy" so much as they attempt to measure "freedom." Clearly Venezuela, regardless of its election apparatus, is authoritarian given the strict economic controls that exist in the country.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts just above this one are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
Thank you for that
Venezuela is a democratic country. Maduro is a reflection of Venezuela's people and its institutions. So yes, I feel quite comfortable indicting both.
They are as democratic as Russia.
Yep. And Putin is also a reflection of the Russian people. I'll say the same thing about the Chinese and China. They like their totalitarian leadership with the trappings of quasi-democracy.
It is reflective of section of Russian people that openly support Putin. The ones who don’t support him don’t speak out of fear and their numbers are unknown.
Do you doubt that Putin has majority support in Russia? I don't. I'm sure that there are dissenters, but it doesn't change the fact that Putin reflects the majority of Russians.
Just to be clear, y'all aren't imprinting your own values upon the peoples of these other countries, are you? Not everyone accepts the superiority of our western sensibilities, and, consequently, they have very different ideas regarding the relationship between the individual and the state than we do.
Do I doubt that Putin has the majority of support in Russia? Yes, I have doubts he has majority support. Do I believe that Russians might have a different opinion of him if they had a free and open press? Yes.
I am not even imprinting my own values on Russia. I see Russia for what it is, a foreign country that has a government invested in repressing information, both to its people and to foreign powers. There are sections of Russia that are black boxes. I do not feel I have enough information to believe anything about that countries politics with certainty.
On June 30 2018 04:35 xDaunt wrote: Ok, I finished the video that GH posted. It's a mess that omits all sorts of important stuff, most notably the massive refugee crisis that Venezuela's ongoing collapse has spawned. However, I actually agree with the guy on one point: a majority of Venezuelans do support Maduro and his policies, and it is not the place of the US to intervene there and usurp their democratically elected president. While I may quibble with the extent to which Maduro is democratically elected, I wholeheartedly agree that the US should not touch Venezuela or Venezuelans with a 10-foot pole. Let them have their doomed experiment. Venezuela is going to be a perfect monument to the failures of radical socialism.
On June 30 2018 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
On June 30 2018 04:30 NewSunshine wrote: I think the issue facing Venezuela right now is a very complex one, and I think that trying to suggest that the population which lives there now is directly responsible for things being the way they are, and that they chose for the country they're living in to be this way, is disingenuous to say the least. What's more, then saying that they deserve to rot in destitution for the rest of their life as a result is just aggressive, bordering on hateful. Nah fuck it, it's outright hateful.
I agree, I hope the people are able to over throw the dictator that is currently keeping them down and not just with a different dictator but rather with a system that has some checks and balances and can work long term.
Why GH is so frustrating is because the dictator outwardly supports his views he wears rose colored glasses in regards to what he is actually doing to his nation. Chavez had huge personal wealth and Maduro is now gaining huge personal wealth. Odd how these "true" socialists all end up with huge wealth and power. Odd how they also only give the power up through death.
JimmiC and dauntless' posts just above this one are perfect contrasting examples of how to regard the politics of a particular nation. One loads up the polemics, twists the inferences in favor of false certainty, and basically says nothing other than "I HATE NON CAPITALISTS" while the other is equivocal, conscientious in its conclusions, and careful to cabin it's conclusions with an acknowledgement that Venezuela's problems may have more to do with the people in power than the name of the system the nation claims to follow.
Thank you for that
Venezuela is a democratic country. Maduro is a reflection of Venezuela's people and its institutions. So yes, I feel quite comfortable indicting both.
They are as democratic as Russia.
Yep. And Putin is also a reflection of the Russian people. I'll say the same thing about the Chinese and China. They like their totalitarian leadership with the trappings of quasi-democracy.
It is reflective of section of Russian people that openly support Putin. The ones who don’t support him don’t speak out of fear and their numbers are unknown.
Do you doubt that Putin has majority support in Russia? I don't. I'm sure that there are dissenters, but it doesn't change the fact that Putin reflects the majority of Russians.
Just to be clear, y'all aren't imprinting your own values upon the peoples of these other countries, are you? Not everyone accepts the superiority of our western sensibilities, and, consequently, they have very different ideas regarding the relationship between the individual and the state than we do.
Do I doubt that Putin has the majority of support in Russia? Yes, I have doubts he has majority support. Do I believe that Russians might have a different opinion of him if they had a free and open press? Yes.
I am not even imprinting my own values on Russia. I see Russia for what it is, a foreign country that has a government invested in repressing information, both to its people and to foreign powers. There are sections of Russia that are black boxes. I do not feel I have enough information to believe anything about that countries politics with certainty.
So why do you think that Russia relapsed back into authoritarianism after the fall of the Soviet Union?
EPT
