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On February 14 2022 05:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided. I love how its NATO's fault that former USSR nations want protection from an antagonistic Russia. Not to mention that NATO isn't even a threat to Russia, its a defensive alliance. The only reason Russia should be worried about NATO 'encroachment' is if they (Russia) want to get aggressive in the region.
If NATO didn't exist and Canada and Mexico made a defensive military alliance with China, would the US just not mind because they had no plans to be aggressive towards either?
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On February 14 2022 05:19 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 05:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided. I love how its NATO's fault that former USSR nations want protection from an antagonistic Russia. Not to mention that NATO isn't even a threat to Russia, its a defensive alliance. The only reason Russia should be worried about NATO 'encroachment' is if they (Russia) want to get aggressive in the region. If NATO didn't exist and Canada and Mexico made a defensive military alliance with China, would the US just not mind because they had no plans to be aggressive towards either?
There is no world in which the US invades Canada or Mexico if they don’t stay in their immediate orbit; that makes the comparison moot.
Russia treats - and has always treated - countries around it as vassals or ennemies. You are a neighbour to Russia, you know that getting invaded is a real prospect.
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On February 14 2022 05:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 05:19 Dan HH wrote:On February 14 2022 05:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided. I love how its NATO's fault that former USSR nations want protection from an antagonistic Russia. Not to mention that NATO isn't even a threat to Russia, its a defensive alliance. The only reason Russia should be worried about NATO 'encroachment' is if they (Russia) want to get aggressive in the region. If NATO didn't exist and Canada and Mexico made a defensive military alliance with China, would the US just not mind because they had no plans to be aggressive towards either? There is no world in which the US invades Canada or Mexico if they don’t stay in their immediate orbit; that makes the comparison moot. Russia treats - and has always treated - countries around it as vassals or ennemies. You are a neighbour to Russia, you know that getting invaded is a real prospect.
That's the whole point of the comparison, to show that a country that clearly doesn't want to get aggressive in its region would be fuming in that position as well.
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On February 14 2022 05:19 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 05:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided. I love how its NATO's fault that former USSR nations want protection from an antagonistic Russia. Not to mention that NATO isn't even a threat to Russia, its a defensive alliance. The only reason Russia should be worried about NATO 'encroachment' is if they (Russia) want to get aggressive in the region. If NATO didn't exist and Canada and Mexico made a defensive military alliance with China, would the US just not mind because they had no plans to be aggressive towards either? There is a canyon of nuance between 'not mind' and 'Lets invade them to prove they were right to seek such an alliance'.
I would certainly not expect the US to be threatening the invasion of Canada no.
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On February 14 2022 05:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 05:19 Dan HH wrote:On February 14 2022 05:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided. I love how its NATO's fault that former USSR nations want protection from an antagonistic Russia. Not to mention that NATO isn't even a threat to Russia, its a defensive alliance. The only reason Russia should be worried about NATO 'encroachment' is if they (Russia) want to get aggressive in the region. If NATO didn't exist and Canada and Mexico made a defensive military alliance with China, would the US just not mind because they had no plans to be aggressive towards either? There is a canyon of nuance between 'not mind' and 'Lets invade them to prove they were right to seek such an alliance'. I would certainly not expect the US to be threatening the invasion of Canada no.
What if they exported another pop star? Would that do it for you?
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On February 14 2022 05:09 Gorsameth wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided. I love how its NATO's fault that former USSR nations want protection from an antagonistic Russia. Not to mention that NATO isn't even a threat to Russia, its a defensive alliance. The only reason Russia should be worried about NATO 'encroachment' is if they (Russia) want to get aggressive in the region.
I just wanted to point out the reasoning, no intention of apologizing for Putin, but there's a pride and legacy factor here for him. I don't like it and thought he would be fine with the grifting and dividing us through misinformation campaigns.
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What if Cuba were to join said same theoretical Chinese alliance? Maybe with a comment to improve Cuba’s “air and naval defense capabilities” on top.
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On February 14 2022 05:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 05:19 Dan HH wrote:On February 14 2022 05:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided. I love how its NATO's fault that former USSR nations want protection from an antagonistic Russia. Not to mention that NATO isn't even a threat to Russia, its a defensive alliance. The only reason Russia should be worried about NATO 'encroachment' is if they (Russia) want to get aggressive in the region. If NATO didn't exist and Canada and Mexico made a defensive military alliance with China, would the US just not mind because they had no plans to be aggressive towards either? There is a canyon of nuance between 'not mind' and 'Lets invade them to prove they were right to seek such an alliance'. I would certainly not expect the US to be threatening the invasion of Canada no.
True, but the bar you set was "should be worried about", and yes they would be worried about it. I don't know how far they would go to prevent it, they both went pretty far to prevent low stakes faraway nations from joining the other's sphere of influence in the not too distant past.
To be clear, I'm not blaming NATO for this. I'm glad we joined when we did and I wish Ukraine and Moldova got to do it as well, cause now it's pretty much impossible for them. Accepting a new member with a disputed territory would either instantly trigger article 5 or make the alliance a joke.
My main quip with how this is being talked about by westerners is that there's very little willingness to even consider that Russia may not be a completely irrational and incomprehensible actor.
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I'm not sure I would put it past the US government to invade Canada or Mexico if Russia were to first participate in installing a different, Russia-friendly government in one of those countries and then move towards forming a defensive alliance with that country. Especially if said defensive alliance was part of a broader alliance that had in the past acted to dislodge the governments of far flung countries such as Libya (with no conceivable "defensive" predicate).
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On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided.
No, eastern EU doesn't want another Iron Curtain. It's entirely free will and not NATO's fault. Putin needs to go and someone like Navalny could make Russia normal for once. Sadly, the system over there is rotten beyond repair anytime soon.
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On February 14 2022 06:02 Doc.Rivers wrote:
I'm not sure I would put it past the US government to invade Canada or Mexico if Russia were to first participate in installing a different, Russia-friendly government in one of those countries and then move towards forming a defensive alliance with that country. Especially if said defensive alliance was part of a broader alliance that had in the past acted to dislodge the governments of far flung countries such as Libya (with no conceivable "defensive" predicate).
The US might try to assassinate the leader of a Mexico/Canada that joined something like that, or deploy lots of warships there or something. Or it might just be no big deal, who knows.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On February 14 2022 05:59 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 05:34 Gorsameth wrote:On February 14 2022 05:19 Dan HH wrote:On February 14 2022 05:09 Gorsameth wrote:On February 14 2022 04:56 r00ty wrote:On February 14 2022 01:44 Sadist wrote:+ Show Spoiler +People need to remember hitler and ww2 did not involve nuclear weapons.
If you told me there was 0 chance of nuclear or biological weapons being used id be all for heavy intervention.
The fact is Russia is a nuclear power and that needs to be considered when response and escalation is considered.
We should tell them Ukraine wont join NATO and mean it. If they refuse to fuck off we have lost nothing and are at the same situation we have today. If they do fuckoff we avoided a horrific war with untold costs for all sides.
It honestly feels like a dick measuring contest with nuclear weapons involved.
Agreed, hopefully that will be enough. And the eastern extension of the NATO was never agreed upon during the fall of the soviet union. Eastern Germany was allowed to join, that was it. So we kicked and insulted them a bit, when the Russians were down, now they're coming back at us when we are weakened and divided. I love how its NATO's fault that former USSR nations want protection from an antagonistic Russia. Not to mention that NATO isn't even a threat to Russia, its a defensive alliance. The only reason Russia should be worried about NATO 'encroachment' is if they (Russia) want to get aggressive in the region. If NATO didn't exist and Canada and Mexico made a defensive military alliance with China, would the US just not mind because they had no plans to be aggressive towards either? There is a canyon of nuance between 'not mind' and 'Lets invade them to prove they were right to seek such an alliance'. I would certainly not expect the US to be threatening the invasion of Canada no. True, but the bar you set was "should be worried about", and yes they would be worried about it. I don't know how far they would go to prevent it, they both went pretty far to prevent low stakes faraway nations from joining the other's sphere of influence in the not too distant past. To be clear, I'm not blaming NATO for this. I'm glad we joined when we did and I wish Ukraine and Moldova got to do it as well, cause now it's pretty much impossible for them. Accepting a new member with a disputed territory would either instantly trigger article 5 or make the alliance a joke. My main quip with how this is being talked about by westerners is that there's very little willingness to even consider that Russia may not be a completely irrational and incomprehensible actor.
Pretty much.
Or that acknowledging that isn’t some kind of validation or tacit approval of Putin’s shenanigans
We are dealing with the present state of affairs of course, one can’t help but feel there’s been some collective failure in policies that Russia wasn’t fully embraced, nor fully embraced themselves in becoming properly embedded with the wider West
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USA can and has invaded it's neighbours. We signed a deal to tie our economies intimately to a level like the eu has. We had plans to invade Canada not that long ago that got exposed.
If Russia demanded an economic treaty with Ukraine and the baltics to ensure it's local security in the same way and demand that they don't join the 4 freedoms that would be seen as reasonable.
The issue is that Europe doesn't have the motivation to commit to the kind of economic and cultural sanctions that would see Russia back down. They will see Russia swallow eastern Ukraine accept it as regularly as crimes.
We have seen the success of extreme sanctions on countries for decades now. Rhodesia South Africa and Iran were brought to the table by them. A threatened invite of Ukraine to the eu would be a compromise to Russia to tie them to the west instead of nato. Has any euro leader even mentioned this?
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On February 14 2022 03:58 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 02:55 Doc.Rivers wrote:On February 14 2022 02:52 JimmiC wrote:
It boggles my mind that the most watched Republican voice has to be legally determined to be satire because of how often and the impact of his consistent lying. You would think there would be way more embarrassment around that. But who needs fact when you can be ignorant and feel good about "pwn"ing libs. The same legal determination was actually made about the most watched dem voice (maddow). Which is misleading because Fox has more viewers than MSNBC and CNN combined when you want to compare left and right wing viewers.
The number of viewers has no bearing on this. The point he is trying to make is that satire is a common legal defense for talk show hosts regardless of position.
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On February 14 2022 09:40 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 03:58 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 14 2022 02:55 Doc.Rivers wrote:On February 14 2022 02:52 JimmiC wrote:
It boggles my mind that the most watched Republican voice has to be legally determined to be satire because of how often and the impact of his consistent lying. You would think there would be way more embarrassment around that. But who needs fact when you can be ignorant and feel good about "pwn"ing libs. The same legal determination was actually made about the most watched dem voice (maddow). Which is misleading because Fox has more viewers than MSNBC and CNN combined when you want to compare left and right wing viewers. The number of viewers has no bearing on this. The point he is trying to make is that satire is a common legal defense for talk show hosts regardless of position.
So why not say that instead of responding to my post with more whataboutism bullshit?
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Is there any reason Ukraine can't just tell Russia they won't join NATO, then join NATO anyway later?
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Afaik russia doesn't want that guarantee from Ukraine, they want it from NATO. And NATO can't do that, because it would totally ruin any credibility in the future.
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On February 14 2022 13:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2022 09:40 gobbledydook wrote:On February 14 2022 03:58 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On February 14 2022 02:55 Doc.Rivers wrote:On February 14 2022 02:52 JimmiC wrote:
It boggles my mind that the most watched Republican voice has to be legally determined to be satire because of how often and the impact of his consistent lying. You would think there would be way more embarrassment around that. But who needs fact when you can be ignorant and feel good about "pwn"ing libs. The same legal determination was actually made about the most watched dem voice (maddow). Which is misleading because Fox has more viewers than MSNBC and CNN combined when you want to compare left and right wing viewers. The number of viewers has no bearing on this. The point he is trying to make is that satire is a common legal defense for talk show hosts regardless of position. So why not say that instead of responding to my post with more whataboutism bullshit?
I'm not Doc, I wouldn't know.
This is not to say that Tucker Carlson is not a serial liar and hypocrite. His vaccine bullshit for example is just ridiculous red meat for the crazy far right. He does raise some good points that most other hosts don't touch though - for example whether it is justified for the US to be supporting Ukraine militarily. For most of the establishment, this is not something that should even be a question and trying to question this gets you branded as a Russian agent but is that really something that is self-evident?
Perhaps the answer should be yes, we really should be supporting Ukraine, because of so and so reasons. I find it disingenious to dismiss doubters as fake news or traitorous without even a debate as to why it should be so obvious to intervene.
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On February 14 2022 15:14 Simberto wrote:
Afaik russia doesn't want that guarantee from Ukraine, they want it from NATO. And NATO can't do that, because it would totally ruin any credibility in the future.
No Ukrainian politician in the current political climate would be able to advocate for that without being branded a traitor so that point is moot anyway.
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EPT
