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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Vivax
22414 Posts
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1492485832753795074? Ukr. President saying he's aware of invasion risk, but it's being exaggerated by media. He's doing what he can to appease both sides imo as he's not pointing fingers: https://twitter.com/worldnews24u/status/1492793712405098501? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
"Curious how many days before these [weapons sent to the Ukraine] end up in Yemen, Syria, and Afghanistan?" North Korea is also a good option given Ukrainian precedent. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On February 15 2022 00:45 Mohdoo wrote: Drills over to be ready to invade or drills over to go home? Hope it’s the latter! It's most definitly their equivalent to the "send the national guard to the frontier" from a bunch of conservative states. Hurry up and wait lads | ||
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Vivax
22414 Posts
On February 15 2022 00:53 LegalLord wrote: This tweet amused me: https://twitter.com/Rogozin/status/1493236857383104519 "Curious how many days before these [weapons sent to the Ukraine] end up in Yemen, Syria, and Afghanistan?" North Korea is also a good option given Ukrainian precedent. Yeah I looked up the bay of pigs invasion article on wikipedia yesterday and was kinda amused the cubans had US made arms (some planes iirc) in their arsenal. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On February 15 2022 00:22 Vivax wrote: Literally announcing troop withdrawal: https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1492485832753795074? Ukr. President saying he's aware of invasion risk, but it's being exaggerated by media. He's doing what he can to appease both sides imo as he's not pointing fingers: https://twitter.com/worldnews24u/status/1492793712405098501? Whether or not Russia plans to invade, that tweet would be sent out. It's not as though they're going to announce plans to invade on Wednesday. Especially if the information about them invading after a staged "Nazi slaughter of Russians" in Ukraine are true. Which is not to say that they are or aren't, but rather just to remind everyone that statements from Russian channels shouldn't really impact whether or not you think they are planning an invasion or not. It's about as foolish as believing Trump/the GOP when they will say they have a national health insurance plan in 2024. It's not like they would have announced they were invading Chechnya on Twitter-state actors have an even bigger incentive to lie on the internet than us plebs, and we do it an awful lot. The only reason to even pretend to be honest is if you want to bring others along with your pretense like the US did in Iraq, which is not a priority for Russia. Edit: especially when those comments are coming alongside statements from their envoys like: “We will not invade Ukraine unless we are provoked to do that,” said Vladimir Chizhov, who has represented Russia in Brussels since 2005. “If the Ukrainians launch an attack against Russia, you shouldn’t be surprised if we counterattack. Or, if they start blatantly killing Russian citizens anywhere – Donbas or wherever.” | ||
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Vivax
22414 Posts
On February 15 2022 01:38 TheTenthDoc wrote: Whether or not Russia plans to invade, that tweet would be sent out. It's not as though they're going to announce plans to invade on Wednesday. Especially if the information about them invading after a staged "Nazi slaughter of Russians" in Ukraine are true. Which is not to say that they are or aren't, but rather just to remind everyone that statements from Russian channels shouldn't really impact whether or not you think they are planning an invasion or not. It's about as foolish as believing Trump/the GOP when they will say they have a national health insurance plan in 2024. It's not like they would have announced they were invading Chechnya on Twitter-state actors have an even bigger incentive to lie on the internet than us plebs, and we do it an awful lot. The only reason to even pretend to be honest is if you want to bring others along with your pretense like the US did in Iraq, which is not a priority for Russia. Edit: especially when those comments are coming alongside statements from their envoys like: Yeah I stand corrected. Obviously getting attacked or your citizens murdered for their nationality doesn't give you a right to invade. But now I'm a little wiser. Regardless, if that's your attitude to what someone proclaims to do, why even believe anything? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22584 Posts
On February 15 2022 01:59 Vivax wrote: Its politics, you shouldn't believe anything.Yeah I stand corrected. Obviously getting attacked or your citizens murdered for their nationality doesn't give you a right to invade. But now I'm a little wiser. Regardless, if that's your attitude to what someone proclaims to do, why even believe anything? | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
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Vivax
22414 Posts
On February 15 2022 02:03 Gorsameth wrote: Its politics, you shouldn't believe anything. I'm aware of that although it is situational. But when it comes to sparking a war, there's always a side that's going to be lying and one that is telling the truth when it concerns the trigger. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22584 Posts
On February 15 2022 02:07 Salazarz wrote: Sure, but does that apply in this situation? What false justification are you afraid of here? Either Russian tanks roll into Ukraine or they don't and its going to get confirmed by more then just US intelligence.You'd think the US intelligence agencies' credibility would have been completely ruined by now given their record of false flags and outright lies, yet somehow most people seem happy to go along with them on whatever story they're writing about Russian aggression. Not to say that Russkies are saints, but as far as false flags and fake justifications go, I'd imagine the US is far more likely to do something to start shit than the Russians are, simply based on history. Seems like the US has got way more to gain from any conflict in Europe than Russians do, too; what is even there for them to get from an actual open invasion, other than obvious nonsense like 'Putin wants USSR back'? | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On February 15 2022 02:08 Vivax wrote: I'm aware of that although it is situational. But when it comes to sparking a war, there's always a side that's going to be lying and one that is telling the truth when it concerns the trigger. There are plenty of wars where both parties lie or both parties tell the truth. My point is just that evaluating anyone's truthfulness right before the possible war for "normal" people is pretty much a fools' gambit-short of troops actually physically leaving the border. | ||
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Vivax
22414 Posts
On February 15 2022 02:21 TheTenthDoc wrote: There are plenty of wars where both parties lie or both parties tell the truth. Yeah you're probably right. Neither side will want to tell the truth on this one if it's about what I think it is. The thing is, if Russia folds here next thing we'll be reading about are probably India, China and Pakistan. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On February 15 2022 02:28 JimmiC wrote: Probably closer to always lying to various degrees. I think both strategically and politically truthfullness and war are pretty damn unlikely. Definitely closer once we reach "modern" times. When I think of both sides being truthful I'm mostly thinking of much older wars where both sides just out-and-out honestly said "that territory should be ours" with maybe some sprinkles of exaggerated barbarity from the other side. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9246 Posts
On February 15 2022 02:07 Salazarz wrote: You'd think the US intelligence agencies' credibility would have been completely ruined by now given their record of false flags and outright lies, yet somehow most people seem happy to go along with them on whatever story they're writing about Russian aggression. Not to say that Russkies are saints, but as far as false flags and fake justifications go, I'd imagine the US is far more likely to do something to start shit than the Russians are, simply based on history. Seems like the US has got way more to gain from any conflict in Europe than Russians do, too; what is even there for them to get from an actual open invasion, other than obvious nonsense like 'Putin wants USSR back'? As long as the currently disputed territories are enough to keep Ukraine out of NATO, there's nothing to gain from going further into it. Russia's economy still hasn't recovered to pre-2014 levels and it's not projected to do so for several years more, they can't afford to occupy a hostile massive country for nostalgia points, that would set them back many decades even if Ukraine had 0 help. If they wanted land just for the sake of it, there's far more receptive former SSRs. They did make somewhat more noise on the border this year, perhaps on the back of the current energy crisis which gave them stronger leverage than usual to get minor concessions. Looks like they were offered reduced missile deployments and drills in EE from what Blinken and Lavrov are saying, but they'll never get NATO to straight up promise to not expand. I don't think the US is trying "start shit" though, their involvement looks reactive and all-in-all pretty well balanced. Maybe the public messaging of how imminent war is is a bit too strong in order to claim a bigger victory for Biden at home by the end of all the fuss, but that's the full extent of cynicism I can muster on this topic. | ||
KwarK
United States44289 Posts
1. Russia doesn't invade 2. Russia invades but doesn't achieve its objectives and withdraws 3. Russia invades and does well enough that everyone has to do something about it Desperately arming the shit out of Ukraine is an attempt to deter Russia from invading or, if that fails, make the invasion a failure. It's a completely reactive policy in an attempt to avoid a crisis. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14208 Posts
On February 15 2022 02:38 JimmiC wrote: Technically China and India are always at war. They disagree on the border and constantly have skirmishes about it. And worse between Pakistan and India with the people in the middle consistently getting fucked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–2022_China–India_skirmishes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–2021_India–Pakistan_border_skirmishes They skirmish so often that they've made an agreement to send their patrols out without weapons so that when they do meet and fight they have to do martial arts against each other. | ||
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
On February 14 2022 13:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: So why not say that instead of responding to my post with more whataboutism bullshit? An argument is not whataboutism if it's relevant to the subject under discussion. | ||
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