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On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
Your argument is that there is a difference between the two because doctors and nurses are trying to help people and the police are trying to subdue/restrain people. In other words the police are trying to so their job which sometimes requires them to restrain/subdue/maim/kill people. So by the sheer circumstances of their job requirements they should be condemned more harshly than if anyone else is harmed accidentally by any other profession?
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
Your argument is that there is a difference between the two because doctors and nurses are trying to help people and the police are trying to subdue/restrain people. In other words the police are trying to so their job which sometimes requires them to restrain/subdue/maim/kill people. So by the sheer circumstances of their job requirements they should be condemned more harshly than if anyone else is harmed accidentally by any other profession?
Police are given authority to make these decisions on the fly. The same dynamic is not true for doctors. Comparing doctors to police is just a dumb comparison. Too many things are different.
All of our popular sports have rather arbitrary lines. It is the best athletes, but only the best athletes who aren't openly using drugs. If we really wanted peak human performance we would be gene splicing and making cyborgs who are also stuffed to the gills on weird uppers and steroids.
To me it is more of a weight class thing vis a vis wrestling. The point is to have a competitive group, not to have the best athletes possible. Indications are currently that they might have an advantage if they transition after puberty, but I'm not sure it is even possible to really measure in how miniscule it would be in practice.
Could someone's parents force them to get gender reassignment surgery so that their child has an advantage in sports? Theoretically, maybe, but I'm pretty sure they would be stopped at some point due to how hard that is to have done on anyone, let alone a child.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
Your argument is that there is a difference between the two because doctors and nurses are trying to help people and the police are trying to subdue/restrain people. In other words the police are trying to so their job which sometimes requires them to restrain/subdue/maim/kill people. So by the sheer circumstances of their job requirements they should be condemned more harshly than if anyone else is harmed accidentally by any other profession?
Police are given authority to make these decisions on the fly. The same dynamic is not true for doctors. Comparing doctors to police is just a dumb comparison. Too many things are different.
I'm not sure I understand your argument. Doctors in a cardiac arrest are not making decisions on the fly? What are "these decisions" you speak of? Both have to follow proper policies and procedures. If anything the fact that police have far less time to think about their actions and have far more adrenaline flowing through them to cloud their judgment should make them less culpable for their mistakes than doctors, no?
On April 15 2021 09:05 farvacola wrote: As I see it, the issue of trans athletes needs to be understood with reference to a larger context, one where their very identities are up for debate among the public and they suffer from significantly higher risks of exclusion, violence, and self harm. Joining with bigots in acknowledging a point with technical truth to it only makes sense from a moral standpoint if it comes alongside condemnation of that bigotry in lockstep.
As to the discrete point itself, there are situations where trans athletes may obtain unfair advantages such that eligibility should be given special consideration, but even that begs line drawing problems. Are athletes going to have to prove their gender, and if so, how is that determined? If it’s a line drawn based on hormone levels, who is to say superior cisgender athletes with hormonal profiles that radically deviate from norms should not also be excluded? One way or another, it’s certainly not clear cut.
I might mostly be restating what you said here, but I think it’s worth keeping in mind the phenomenon of bad actors using really difficult moral questions to get their way on easy moral questions that are only tangentially related. Difficult moral problems (like trans women in trans sports) tend to cause a sort of moral exhaustion that makes people more willing to accept any “solution” however immoral, while amoral participants aren’t exhausted because they never cared to contend with the difficult problem in the first place.
Women’s sports is an institution built on a binary gender paradigm, and translating that to the more complex realities of biology isn’t obvious. What is obvious is that trans people are human beings that shouldn’t be attacked or killed for being trans, or that there’s no legitimate basis for government intervention preventing consenting adults from getting transition surgery. And maybe more importantly, that the only apparent political impulse this serves is the elimination of trans people from existence.
On April 15 2021 09:23 Nevuk wrote: All of our popular sports have rather arbitrary lines. It is the best athletes, but only the best athletes who aren't openly using drugs. If we really wanted peak human performance we would be gene splicing and making cyborgs who are also stuffed to the gills on weird uppers and steroids.
To me it is more of a weight class thing vis a vis wrestling. The point is to have a competitive group, not to have the best athletes possible. Indications are currently that they might have an advantage if they transition after puberty, but I'm not sure it is even possible to really measure in how miniscule it would be in practice.
Could someone's parents force them to get gender reassignment surgery so that their child has an advantage in sports? Theoretically, maybe, but I'm pretty sure they would be stopped at some point due to how hard that is to have done on anyone, let alone a child.
On April 15 2021 09:05 farvacola wrote: As I see it, the issue of trans athletes needs to be understood with reference to a larger context, one where their very identities are up for debate among the public and they suffer from significantly higher risks of exclusion, violence, and self harm. Joining with bigots in acknowledging a point with technical truth to it only makes sense from a moral standpoint if it comes alongside condemnation of that bigotry in lockstep.
As to the discrete point itself, there are situations where trans athletes may obtain unfair advantages such that eligibility should be given special consideration, but even that begs line drawing problems. Are athletes going to have to prove their gender, and if so, how is that determined? If it’s a line drawn based on hormone levels, who is to say superior cisgender athletes with hormonal profiles that radically deviate from norms should not also be excluded? One way or another, it’s certainly not clear cut.
I might mostly be restating what you said here, but I think it’s worth keeping in mind the phenomenon of bad actors using really difficult moral questions to get their way on easy moral questions that are only tangentially related. Difficult moral problems (like trans women in trans sports) tend to cause a sort of moral exhaustion that makes people more willing to accept any “solution” however immoral, while amoral participants aren’t exhausted because they never cared to contend with the difficult problem in the first place.
Women’s sports is an institution built on a binary gender paradigm, and translating that to the more complex realities of biology isn’t obvious. What is obvious is that trans people are human beings that shouldn’t be attacked or killed for being trans, or that there’s no legitimate basis for government intervention preventing consenting adults from getting transition surgery. And maybe more importantly, that the only apparent political impulse this serves is the elimination of trans people from existence.
These raise great points and I agree with both wholeheartedly. There's much to be said about the differences between difficult and easy moral problems, particularly when controversies implicate both at the same time.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
Watching China and Russia try to jointly distract the US is a good reminder the world would be well served by a Europe remotely capable of doing damn near anything. It is amazing to me that the US is assumed as the only one who can deal with Russia.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines?
I think trans athletes are a non-issue at the ameteur level, but I do think they create an almost intractable problem at the professional level.
Even if most of the advantage is gone after transition, which afaik depends on the timing, a small advantage can be very significant. Top athletes and organisations are spending their whole lives and millions of dollars to squeeze out an extra few tenths of a second in a sprint or a few extra kilos in a lift. Let's say a 60th percentile dude who transitions at 15 becomes a 63rd percentile female athlete - who cares, that's well within normal variation. A 99.9999th percentile guy, though? Maybe that small advantage is the difference between goathood and barely qualifying for the Olympics. It's just really really messy.
The difference with weight classes is that they are straightforward to switch between, at least within some range. If a fighter feels they would have a better shot in a different class they can cut or bulk accordingly. I don't think anyone envisions a world where athletes pick their gender based on what gives them the best chance at a title, but that freedom to optimise is what makes weight classes work.
I guess you could develop some system of brackets based on testosterone levels, musclemass etc, but I don't think we have anywhere near the biological understanding to do this effectively.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines?
I'm not arguing that doctors should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end someone's life. I'm telling you that they absolutely do go to prison for 'mistakes' as glaring and horrible as those of the taser girl or the Floyd's stranglers'.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines?
Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat.
The comparison between police and nurses/doctors is especially odd to me. I'm putting that nicely. Nurses and doctors have a job and responsibility to place themselves in proximity to people who are at a higher risk of death than the average person when they enter the building. They are there to save lives, not end them. Police are meant to enforce law and order, respond to civil disputes, etc. There is nothing in their job description that necessitates using violence to kill people, nor do they encounter people on an hourly basis who can range from slightly to very ill. Police kill rates are only what they are for their decision to pull a gun and fire. People can and do die in close proximity to medical workers for no fault on their part, and even despite their best efforts. You literally cannot compare anything except the fact that people died. There is no conclusion to be drawn from it, except that police seem to kill an interestingly high number of people in comparison to a field where people are expected to frequently die. Which is actually pretty disturbing in its own right.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines?
I'm not arguing that doctors should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end someone's life. I'm telling you that they absolutely do go to prison for 'mistakes' as glaring and horrible as those of the taser girl or the Floyd's stranglers'.
Here's the released video of the police officer shooting Daunte Wright. People in this thread keep speculating on what she really "meant" to do when she shot him, so I hope this video helps settle that discussion.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines?
I'm not arguing that doctors should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end someone's life. I'm telling you that they absolutely do go to prison for 'mistakes' as glaring and horrible as those of the taser girl or the Floyd's stranglers'.
Do you have any examples you can reference?
Does it make any difference? Do you ask out of curiosity, or to do a "pics or it didn't happen"? The point is irrelevant. Police should be trained to protect people and save lives. It's debatable whether they should even have guns to begin with, but their training should be that they only actually use them as a last resort, and sadly that is just not true. Casually mistaking a gun for a taser is a mistake that should haunt the officer for the rest of their lives, unless it was intentional and they're actually cool with it. And regardless of intention, they killed someone and responsibility needs to be taken for it. Same as when a medical professional exercises gross negligence. The problem is that police don't get held accountable. That's literally the whole problem.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines?
I'm not arguing that doctors should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end someone's life. I'm telling you that they absolutely do go to prison for 'mistakes' as glaring and horrible as those of the taser girl or the Floyd's stranglers'.
Do you have any examples you can reference?
Does it make any difference? Do you ask out of curiosity, or to do a "pics or it didn't happen"? The point is irrelevant. Police should be trained to protect people and save lives. It's debatable whether they should even have guns to begin with, but their training should be that they only actually use them as a last resort, and sadly that is just not true. Casually mistaking a gun for a taser is a mistake that should haunt the officer for the rest of their lives, unless it was intentional and they're actually cool with it. And regardless of intention, they killed someone and responsibility needs to be taken for it. Same as when a medical professional exercises gross negligence. The problem is that police don't get held accountable. That's literally the whole problem.
I think the level of protection policemen get from the justice system is the main problem. In France, a policeman kills someone, he goes to Cour d’Assise for murder, period. And he only gets acquitted if it’s a clear case of “legitimate defense” - meaning he was threatened unequivocally with his life.
What I have understood is that the problem of accountability is embedded in the relationship between the police and the judiciary; basically the former hold the latter by the balls and if you prosecute one of them aggressively, they stop working with you and you are fucked.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines?
Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat.
I take it you haven't watched the video? She shouts "TASER TASER TASER" before firing a single shot. Then she's like "omg I shot him." It's pretty obvious she did it mistakenly unless she is some deranged psychopath that so badly wanted to murder someone that she would risk her career and freedom to put on an act where she pretended to be firing her taser.
As for why she didn't notice the difference between the gun and the taser - probably because she was in fight or flight and wasn't thinking rationally. It's why people that are in gun fights sometimes report that they don't even "feel" being shot. Yet you never hear people condescendingly ask "How do can you not feel a projectile ripping through your flesh?!" Isn't that odd.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked.
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas).
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged.
The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument.
More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine.
That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever.
I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines?
Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat.
I take it you haven't watched the video? She shouts "TASER TASER TASER" before firing a single shot. Then she's like "omg I shot him." It's pretty obvious she did it mistakenly unless she is some deranged psychopath that so badly wanted to murder someone that she would risk her career and freedom to put on an act where she pretended to be firing her taser.
As for why she didn't notice the difference between the gun and the taser - probably because she was in fight or flight and wasn't thinking rationally. It's why people that are in gun fights sometimes report that they don't even "feel" being shot. Yet you never hear people condescendingly ask "How do can you not feel a projectile ripping through your flesh?!" Isn't that odd.
No I hadn't seen the video. I still think you shouldn't be able to mistake your gun for a taser. Flight or fight is not a valid excuse and shows lack of training. What was she doing carrying a gun in the first place if she can make that kind of mistake so easily?
EPT
