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Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
United States43241 Posts
On April 14 2021 16:10 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 15:51 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:19 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 14:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 14 2021 09:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 05:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:In related news, I just saw this picture posted on FB today. Guessing it's trustworthy anyway. + Show Spoiler +I mean I'm guessing maybe you can kinda justify a good number of those 377 at the bottom, but.. that's only a fraction. The genesis of the interactions doesn't tell you anything about whether a killing is justified. The moments leading up to the killing are infinitely more important than the reason for the initial interaction. It does, though. It's very hard for me to imagine that a killing is justified if the guy who got killed is unarmed, even if the person in question becomes completely belligerent. I understand killing someone who is in the process of doing something violent with a weapon (although I think it'll most likely be possible to handle a lot of those cases without killing, too), but police should virtually never kill unarmed people. The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops... What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. To me a more fundamental issue is that they neglected to adjust for the number of interactions each year when making their argument. If they’re going to do that then they might as well argue that, based purely on the raw number of annual deaths, jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is safer than an interaction with either a doctor or a police officer. The poster is essentially trying to argue that 2/100 is higher than 1/10 because 2>1. I am not making any argument regarding degree or which is more likely. My argument is that a) humans are not infallible and b) the mistakes by police are demonized more than other professions and it's not purely because the stakes are higher since doctors and nurses mistakes can also lead to death So you’re arguing that the police are demonized because of their high rate of killing people but that other professions that kill people at a lower rate don’t get as much criticism as they should? Pretty weird argument. It also misses the whole point which is that the police keep getting away with killing people. Medical accidents happen but they are investigated appropriately and justice is served. Police killings are generally not accidents (generally preceded by a lot of complaints about excessive force etc.) by officers trained in killology. You don’t see surgeons cutting into the wrong patient with a homemade custom scalpel with “you’re fucked” engraved in the handle and if one killed someone like that then they’d not get away with it. Show me all the cases of nurses or doctors that have been on trial for mistakes or negligence that resulted in death. George Floyd's killer is on trial now. The "you're fucked' guy was on trial. In reality nurses and doctors whose mistakes kill people not only don't go to jail but they aren't even tried and often don't even lose their license. Yet "justice is served"
The “you’re fucked” guy successfully sued the police department for reinstatement so he could claim that killing someone made him disabled and get a $30k/year police pension. Are you sure you want him as your example of justice?
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On April 14 2021 16:06 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 15:33 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 14:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 14 2021 09:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 05:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:In related news, I just saw this picture posted on FB today. Guessing it's trustworthy anyway. + Show Spoiler +I mean I'm guessing maybe you can kinda justify a good number of those 377 at the bottom, but.. that's only a fraction. The genesis of the interactions doesn't tell you anything about whether a killing is justified. The moments leading up to the killing are infinitely more important than the reason for the initial interaction. It does, though. It's very hard for me to imagine that a killing is justified if the guy who got killed is unarmed, even if the person in question becomes completely belligerent. I understand killing someone who is in the process of doing something violent with a weapon (although I think it'll most likely be possible to handle a lot of those cases without killing, too), but police should virtually never kill unarmed people. The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops... What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. We already know the cop made a mistake in thinking she had her taser. We also know it's a mistake that's not unheard of since it has happened more than once in the past. I don't know why you have to invent some completely absurd analogy that could never happen to compare it to. Also the US is a massive outlier in death by cop when you compare it to other countries that don't have gun violence the way the US does. Compare it to Brazil or Mexico and suddenly it's not such an outlier. Why the fuck would you compare the US to Brazil or Mexico on any metric at all? What next, you're going to say that the US also does better than Zimbabwe in terms of infant mortality or access to healthcare, so they aren't really issues we should concern ourselves with, either? I also find it absolutely astonishing that when a cop 'accidentally' shoots someone because they mistook their gun for their taser, your answer to that is 'well it happened before so its okay' and not 'maybe we should actually teach our cops the difference between a gun and a taser.' Like, if my dentist killed me because they injected cyanide instead of lidocaine, I'd hope there would be more reaction to it than 'oopsie, shit happens!' But hey, it's the doctors who should be held to a higher standard here, right.
The US is a lot closer to Brazil in terms of gun violence than it is to say the UK or Japan. Not sure why you take such an issue with that comparison although, from earlier, your idea of a fair comparison to a cop that mistakes her gun for a taser is a doctor that slices someone's throat with a scalpel instead of suturing a wound so I'm not sure how much faith I put in your definition of fair comparisons.
Also there is tons of effort put into reducing medical errors, medication errors. They still happen and they still kill people by the thousands. As I said, humans are not infallible. Do you really think cops need to be taught the difference between a taser and a gun as if they don't know the difference? Do you really think that is the solution here?
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On April 14 2021 16:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 16:10 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:51 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:19 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 14:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 14 2021 09:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 05:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:In related news, I just saw this picture posted on FB today. Guessing it's trustworthy anyway. + Show Spoiler +I mean I'm guessing maybe you can kinda justify a good number of those 377 at the bottom, but.. that's only a fraction. The genesis of the interactions doesn't tell you anything about whether a killing is justified. The moments leading up to the killing are infinitely more important than the reason for the initial interaction. It does, though. It's very hard for me to imagine that a killing is justified if the guy who got killed is unarmed, even if the person in question becomes completely belligerent. I understand killing someone who is in the process of doing something violent with a weapon (although I think it'll most likely be possible to handle a lot of those cases without killing, too), but police should virtually never kill unarmed people. The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops... What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. To me a more fundamental issue is that they neglected to adjust for the number of interactions each year when making their argument. If they’re going to do that then they might as well argue that, based purely on the raw number of annual deaths, jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is safer than an interaction with either a doctor or a police officer. The poster is essentially trying to argue that 2/100 is higher than 1/10 because 2>1. I am not making any argument regarding degree or which is more likely. My argument is that a) humans are not infallible and b) the mistakes by police are demonized more than other professions and it's not purely because the stakes are higher since doctors and nurses mistakes can also lead to death So you’re arguing that the police are demonized because of their high rate of killing people but that other professions that kill people at a lower rate don’t get as much criticism as they should? Pretty weird argument. It also misses the whole point which is that the police keep getting away with killing people. Medical accidents happen but they are investigated appropriately and justice is served. Police killings are generally not accidents (generally preceded by a lot of complaints about excessive force etc.) by officers trained in killology. You don’t see surgeons cutting into the wrong patient with a homemade custom scalpel with “you’re fucked” engraved in the handle and if one killed someone like that then they’d not get away with it. Show me all the cases of nurses or doctors that have been on trial for mistakes or negligence that resulted in death. George Floyd's killer is on trial now. The "you're fucked' guy was on trial. In reality nurses and doctors whose mistakes kill people not only don't go to jail but they aren't even tried and often don't even lose their license. Yet "justice is served" The “you’re fucked” guy successfully sued the police department for reinstatement so he could claim that killing someone made him disabled and get a $30k/year police pension. Are you sure you want him as your example of justice?
I didn't say justice was served. You did.
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United States43241 Posts
On April 14 2021 16:21 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 16:16 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:10 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:51 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:19 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 14:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 14 2021 09:06 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
The genesis of the interactions doesn't tell you anything about whether a killing is justified. The moments leading up to the killing are infinitely more important than the reason for the initial interaction. It does, though. It's very hard for me to imagine that a killing is justified if the guy who got killed is unarmed, even if the person in question becomes completely belligerent. I understand killing someone who is in the process of doing something violent with a weapon (although I think it'll most likely be possible to handle a lot of those cases without killing, too), but police should virtually never kill unarmed people. The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops... What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. To me a more fundamental issue is that they neglected to adjust for the number of interactions each year when making their argument. If they’re going to do that then they might as well argue that, based purely on the raw number of annual deaths, jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is safer than an interaction with either a doctor or a police officer. The poster is essentially trying to argue that 2/100 is higher than 1/10 because 2>1. I am not making any argument regarding degree or which is more likely. My argument is that a) humans are not infallible and b) the mistakes by police are demonized more than other professions and it's not purely because the stakes are higher since doctors and nurses mistakes can also lead to death So you’re arguing that the police are demonized because of their high rate of killing people but that other professions that kill people at a lower rate don’t get as much criticism as they should? Pretty weird argument. It also misses the whole point which is that the police keep getting away with killing people. Medical accidents happen but they are investigated appropriately and justice is served. Police killings are generally not accidents (generally preceded by a lot of complaints about excessive force etc.) by officers trained in killology. You don’t see surgeons cutting into the wrong patient with a homemade custom scalpel with “you’re fucked” engraved in the handle and if one killed someone like that then they’d not get away with it. Show me all the cases of nurses or doctors that have been on trial for mistakes or negligence that resulted in death. George Floyd's killer is on trial now. The "you're fucked' guy was on trial. In reality nurses and doctors whose mistakes kill people not only don't go to jail but they aren't even tried and often don't even lose their license. Yet "justice is served" The “you’re fucked” guy successfully sued the police department for reinstatement so he could claim that killing someone made him disabled and get a $30k/year police pension. Are you sure you want him as your example of justice? I didn't say justice was served. You did.
I said justice wasn’t served and you countered that by saying that there was a trial. If you didn’t mean to disagree with me about whether justice was served then why did you disagree with me?
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On April 14 2021 16:20 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 16:06 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 15:33 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 14:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 14 2021 09:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 05:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:In related news, I just saw this picture posted on FB today. Guessing it's trustworthy anyway. + Show Spoiler +I mean I'm guessing maybe you can kinda justify a good number of those 377 at the bottom, but.. that's only a fraction. The genesis of the interactions doesn't tell you anything about whether a killing is justified. The moments leading up to the killing are infinitely more important than the reason for the initial interaction. It does, though. It's very hard for me to imagine that a killing is justified if the guy who got killed is unarmed, even if the person in question becomes completely belligerent. I understand killing someone who is in the process of doing something violent with a weapon (although I think it'll most likely be possible to handle a lot of those cases without killing, too), but police should virtually never kill unarmed people. The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops... What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. We already know the cop made a mistake in thinking she had her taser. We also know it's a mistake that's not unheard of since it has happened more than once in the past. I don't know why you have to invent some completely absurd analogy that could never happen to compare it to. Also the US is a massive outlier in death by cop when you compare it to other countries that don't have gun violence the way the US does. Compare it to Brazil or Mexico and suddenly it's not such an outlier. Why the fuck would you compare the US to Brazil or Mexico on any metric at all? What next, you're going to say that the US also does better than Zimbabwe in terms of infant mortality or access to healthcare, so they aren't really issues we should concern ourselves with, either? I also find it absolutely astonishing that when a cop 'accidentally' shoots someone because they mistook their gun for their taser, your answer to that is 'well it happened before so its okay' and not 'maybe we should actually teach our cops the difference between a gun and a taser.' Like, if my dentist killed me because they injected cyanide instead of lidocaine, I'd hope there would be more reaction to it than 'oopsie, shit happens!' But hey, it's the doctors who should be held to a higher standard here, right. The US is a lot closer to Brazil in terms of gun violence than it is to say the UK or Japan. Not sure why you take such an issue with that comparison although, from earlier, your idea of a fair comparison to a cop that mistakes her gun for a taser is a doctor that slices someone's throat with a scalpel instead of suturing a wound so I'm not sure how much faith I put in your definition of fair comparisons. Also there is tons of effort put into reducing medical errors, medication errors. They still happen and they still kill people by the thousands. As I said, humans are not infallible. Do you really think cops need to be taught the difference between a taser and a gun as if they don't know the difference? Do you really think that is the solution here?
the problem with your comparison is that you only look at gun violence. in a vacuum.
that those countries are not even in the same league in most other metrics - some former leader of yours would call them shithole countries - is something swept under the rug.
crime and violence does not happen in a vacuum. social cohesion, socioeconomic factors of people and how they interact with each other and resolve conflicts tend to have quite a bit of influence. I will not deny that it seems intuitive at a glance to go "guns" and "countries similarly bad with guns". but looking closer it will be clearer that this produces a ridiculous incomplete picture that completely misses the point.
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On April 14 2021 16:23 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 16:21 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 16:16 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:10 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:51 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:19 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 14:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:
[quote]
It does, though. It's very hard for me to imagine that a killing is justified if the guy who got killed is unarmed, even if the person in question becomes completely belligerent. I understand killing someone who is in the process of doing something violent with a weapon (although I think it'll most likely be possible to handle a lot of those cases without killing, too), but police should virtually never kill unarmed people.
The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops... What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. To me a more fundamental issue is that they neglected to adjust for the number of interactions each year when making their argument. If they’re going to do that then they might as well argue that, based purely on the raw number of annual deaths, jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is safer than an interaction with either a doctor or a police officer. The poster is essentially trying to argue that 2/100 is higher than 1/10 because 2>1. I am not making any argument regarding degree or which is more likely. My argument is that a) humans are not infallible and b) the mistakes by police are demonized more than other professions and it's not purely because the stakes are higher since doctors and nurses mistakes can also lead to death So you’re arguing that the police are demonized because of their high rate of killing people but that other professions that kill people at a lower rate don’t get as much criticism as they should? Pretty weird argument. It also misses the whole point which is that the police keep getting away with killing people. Medical accidents happen but they are investigated appropriately and justice is served. Police killings are generally not accidents (generally preceded by a lot of complaints about excessive force etc.) by officers trained in killology. You don’t see surgeons cutting into the wrong patient with a homemade custom scalpel with “you’re fucked” engraved in the handle and if one killed someone like that then they’d not get away with it. Show me all the cases of nurses or doctors that have been on trial for mistakes or negligence that resulted in death. George Floyd's killer is on trial now. The "you're fucked' guy was on trial. In reality nurses and doctors whose mistakes kill people not only don't go to jail but they aren't even tried and often don't even lose their license. Yet "justice is served" The “you’re fucked” guy successfully sued the police department for reinstatement so he could claim that killing someone made him disabled and get a $30k/year police pension. Are you sure you want him as your example of justice? I didn't say justice was served. You did. I said justice wasn’t served and you countered that by saying that there was a trial. If you didn’t mean to disagree with me about whether justice was served then why did you disagree with me?
You said justice was served to the nurses and doctors that killed people. I said they haven't even been tried criminally unlike some of the cops that killed people. So if justice is not served to the cops that were prosecuted criminally how can it be served to the doctors and nurses that weren't prosecuted at all?
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United States43241 Posts
On April 14 2021 16:30 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 16:23 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:21 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 16:16 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:10 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:51 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:19 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops...
What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. To me a more fundamental issue is that they neglected to adjust for the number of interactions each year when making their argument. If they’re going to do that then they might as well argue that, based purely on the raw number of annual deaths, jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is safer than an interaction with either a doctor or a police officer. The poster is essentially trying to argue that 2/100 is higher than 1/10 because 2>1. I am not making any argument regarding degree or which is more likely. My argument is that a) humans are not infallible and b) the mistakes by police are demonized more than other professions and it's not purely because the stakes are higher since doctors and nurses mistakes can also lead to death So you’re arguing that the police are demonized because of their high rate of killing people but that other professions that kill people at a lower rate don’t get as much criticism as they should? Pretty weird argument. It also misses the whole point which is that the police keep getting away with killing people. Medical accidents happen but they are investigated appropriately and justice is served. Police killings are generally not accidents (generally preceded by a lot of complaints about excessive force etc.) by officers trained in killology. You don’t see surgeons cutting into the wrong patient with a homemade custom scalpel with “you’re fucked” engraved in the handle and if one killed someone like that then they’d not get away with it. Show me all the cases of nurses or doctors that have been on trial for mistakes or negligence that resulted in death. George Floyd's killer is on trial now. The "you're fucked' guy was on trial. In reality nurses and doctors whose mistakes kill people not only don't go to jail but they aren't even tried and often don't even lose their license. Yet "justice is served" The “you’re fucked” guy successfully sued the police department for reinstatement so he could claim that killing someone made him disabled and get a $30k/year police pension. Are you sure you want him as your example of justice? I didn't say justice was served. You did. I said justice wasn’t served and you countered that by saying that there was a trial. If you didn’t mean to disagree with me about whether justice was served then why did you disagree with me? You said justice was served to the nurses and doctors that killed people. I said they haven't even been tried criminally unlike some of the cops that killed people. So if justice is not served to the cops that were prosecuted criminally how can it be served to the doctors and nurses that weren't prosecuted at all?
You keep saying that medical malpractice lawsuits aren’t a thing and I don’t know why. I provided an example of the kind of police injustice that causes it to be in the news, you keep saying “what about medical counter examples” but haven’t actually given one. You just referenced a trial in which justice was famously not served and pretended that was more justice than in the counter examples you never provided.
You’re also ignoring that most of the police complaints are when the police deliberately killed someone they didn’t have to, not when they accidentally killed someone. Most of the time the police draw their guns, aim them, and shoot someone they meant to do that. It’s not comparable to a nurse giving someone too much of the medicine they needed.
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On April 14 2021 16:30 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 16:20 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 16:06 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 15:33 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 14:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 14 2021 09:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 05:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:In related news, I just saw this picture posted on FB today. Guessing it's trustworthy anyway. + Show Spoiler +I mean I'm guessing maybe you can kinda justify a good number of those 377 at the bottom, but.. that's only a fraction. The genesis of the interactions doesn't tell you anything about whether a killing is justified. The moments leading up to the killing are infinitely more important than the reason for the initial interaction. It does, though. It's very hard for me to imagine that a killing is justified if the guy who got killed is unarmed, even if the person in question becomes completely belligerent. I understand killing someone who is in the process of doing something violent with a weapon (although I think it'll most likely be possible to handle a lot of those cases without killing, too), but police should virtually never kill unarmed people. The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops... What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. We already know the cop made a mistake in thinking she had her taser. We also know it's a mistake that's not unheard of since it has happened more than once in the past. I don't know why you have to invent some completely absurd analogy that could never happen to compare it to. Also the US is a massive outlier in death by cop when you compare it to other countries that don't have gun violence the way the US does. Compare it to Brazil or Mexico and suddenly it's not such an outlier. Why the fuck would you compare the US to Brazil or Mexico on any metric at all? What next, you're going to say that the US also does better than Zimbabwe in terms of infant mortality or access to healthcare, so they aren't really issues we should concern ourselves with, either? I also find it absolutely astonishing that when a cop 'accidentally' shoots someone because they mistook their gun for their taser, your answer to that is 'well it happened before so its okay' and not 'maybe we should actually teach our cops the difference between a gun and a taser.' Like, if my dentist killed me because they injected cyanide instead of lidocaine, I'd hope there would be more reaction to it than 'oopsie, shit happens!' But hey, it's the doctors who should be held to a higher standard here, right. The US is a lot closer to Brazil in terms of gun violence than it is to say the UK or Japan. Not sure why you take such an issue with that comparison although, from earlier, your idea of a fair comparison to a cop that mistakes her gun for a taser is a doctor that slices someone's throat with a scalpel instead of suturing a wound so I'm not sure how much faith I put in your definition of fair comparisons. Also there is tons of effort put into reducing medical errors, medication errors. They still happen and they still kill people by the thousands. As I said, humans are not infallible. Do you really think cops need to be taught the difference between a taser and a gun as if they don't know the difference? Do you really think that is the solution here? the problem with your comparison is that you only look at gun violence. in a vacuum. that those countries are not even in the same league in most other metrics - some former leader of yours would call them shithole countries - is something swept under the rug. crime and violence does not happen in a vacuum. social cohesion, socioeconomic factors of people and how they interact with each other and resolve conflicts tend to have quite a bit of influence. I will not deny that it seems intuitive at a glance to go "guns" and "countries similarly bad with guns". but looking closer it will be clearer that this produces a ridiculous incomplete picture that completely misses the point.
Yes, the US is quite unique. It imprisons far more of its citizens and has far more gun violence than any other 1st world country. It's why I'm not the one that brought up a country-to-country comparisons and I was only countering people that think comparing the US to other European countries on this matter is an apples to apples comparison.
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On April 14 2021 16:36 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 16:30 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 16:23 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:21 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 16:16 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:10 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:51 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:19 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. To me a more fundamental issue is that they neglected to adjust for the number of interactions each year when making their argument. If they’re going to do that then they might as well argue that, based purely on the raw number of annual deaths, jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is safer than an interaction with either a doctor or a police officer. The poster is essentially trying to argue that 2/100 is higher than 1/10 because 2>1. I am not making any argument regarding degree or which is more likely. My argument is that a) humans are not infallible and b) the mistakes by police are demonized more than other professions and it's not purely because the stakes are higher since doctors and nurses mistakes can also lead to death So you’re arguing that the police are demonized because of their high rate of killing people but that other professions that kill people at a lower rate don’t get as much criticism as they should? Pretty weird argument. It also misses the whole point which is that the police keep getting away with killing people. Medical accidents happen but they are investigated appropriately and justice is served. Police killings are generally not accidents (generally preceded by a lot of complaints about excessive force etc.) by officers trained in killology. You don’t see surgeons cutting into the wrong patient with a homemade custom scalpel with “you’re fucked” engraved in the handle and if one killed someone like that then they’d not get away with it. Show me all the cases of nurses or doctors that have been on trial for mistakes or negligence that resulted in death. George Floyd's killer is on trial now. The "you're fucked' guy was on trial. In reality nurses and doctors whose mistakes kill people not only don't go to jail but they aren't even tried and often don't even lose their license. Yet "justice is served" The “you’re fucked” guy successfully sued the police department for reinstatement so he could claim that killing someone made him disabled and get a $30k/year police pension. Are you sure you want him as your example of justice? I didn't say justice was served. You did. I said justice wasn’t served and you countered that by saying that there was a trial. If you didn’t mean to disagree with me about whether justice was served then why did you disagree with me? You said justice was served to the nurses and doctors that killed people. I said they haven't even been tried criminally unlike some of the cops that killed people. So if justice is not served to the cops that were prosecuted criminally how can it be served to the doctors and nurses that weren't prosecuted at all? You keep saying that medical malpractice lawsuits aren’t a thing and I don’t know why. I provided an example of the kind of police injustice that causes it to be in the news, you keep saying “what about medical counter examples” but haven’t actually given one. You just referenced a trial in which justice was famously not served and pretended that was more justice than in the counter examples you never provided. You’re also ignoring that most of the police complaints are when the police deliberately killed someone they didn’t have to, not when they accidentally killed someone. Most of the time the police draw their guns, aim them, and shoot someone they meant to do that. It’s not comparable to a nurse giving someone too much of the medicine they needed.
So now civil lawsuits count as justice being served? Almost every unjustifiable police killing results in the city settling with the victims family for some large amount of money so if you're counting this as justice served then you're actually weakening your own argument that the victims/families of police shootings don't get justice.
If you want a specific example look at that Tennessee nurse a couple years ago that pushed vecuronium instead of versed on a patient going into an MRI. Versed is a sedative. Vecuronium is a paralytic. The patient was paralyzed to the point she couldn't breathe but also fully aware as she suffocated to death inside of an MRI machine. The exceptionally rare thing is they did try to prosecute her for a bit before I think dropping it. She didn't lose her license though.
Also this topic started when I responded to Eri about the most recent shooting which happened as a mistake/accident. Obviously the accident/mistake comparison to other professions isn't relevant if we are not talking about police killings that weren't a mistake. Doesn't mean I'm ignoring the topic just because I don't immediately respond when the goalposts are shifted. Maybe that's worth talking about tomorrow but for now I'm going to sleep.
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well but the US is - as a whole - closer to an apple than to an orange. orange being a developing nation and apple OECD/first world.
although Mexico is in the OECD list so politics being politics and good on them I guess... but I digress.
//n8 then!
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On April 14 2021 16:10 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 15:51 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:19 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:13 Salazarz wrote:On April 14 2021 14:55 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 14:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:On April 14 2021 09:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 05:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:In related news, I just saw this picture posted on FB today. Guessing it's trustworthy anyway. + Show Spoiler +I mean I'm guessing maybe you can kinda justify a good number of those 377 at the bottom, but.. that's only a fraction. The genesis of the interactions doesn't tell you anything about whether a killing is justified. The moments leading up to the killing are infinitely more important than the reason for the initial interaction. It does, though. It's very hard for me to imagine that a killing is justified if the guy who got killed is unarmed, even if the person in question becomes completely belligerent. I understand killing someone who is in the process of doing something violent with a weapon (although I think it'll most likely be possible to handle a lot of those cases without killing, too), but police should virtually never kill unarmed people. The hot topic right now is the case of daunte Wright who was killed in Minnesota not far from where George Floyd was killed. The gist of the story is that the police pulled him over for expired tags, they discovered he had a warrant for his arrest, when they tried to arrest him he attempted to flee, a scuffle ensued and a cop shot him thinking she had her taser instead of her gun. Obviously a mistake. I would prefer if cops were infallible and didn't make mistakes like that. I think it's also worth noting that doctors will kill far more people from their mistakes this year than cops and doctors have years more training in their field, they don't have to make their decisions in split seconds, and their lives are never in danger. If only we held doctors to as high of a standard as we hold cops... What an utterly nonsensical argument. If a doctor killed a patient because instead of suture they grabbed a scalpel and sliced their patient's throat with it, nobody would be talking about an 'accident', the doctor would lose their job, their license, and likely their life's savings too after the lawsuits were done, not to mention the very real possibility of jailtime. Doctors don't kill patients because they chop away at things that look 'suspicious' to them, not to mention that there isn't a single country in the world where medical mistakes don't happen; meanwhile the US is a massive outlier in terms of 'death by cop.' The two are in no way comparable, and it's pretty shocking that a grown man might actually think otherwise. To me a more fundamental issue is that they neglected to adjust for the number of interactions each year when making their argument. If they’re going to do that then they might as well argue that, based purely on the raw number of annual deaths, jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is safer than an interaction with either a doctor or a police officer. The poster is essentially trying to argue that 2/100 is higher than 1/10 because 2>1. I am not making any argument regarding degree or which is more likely. My argument is that a) humans are not infallible and b) the mistakes by police are demonized more than other professions and it's not purely because the stakes are higher since doctors and nurses mistakes can also lead to death So you’re arguing that the police are demonized because of their high rate of killing people but that other professions that kill people at a lower rate don’t get as much criticism as they should? Pretty weird argument. It also misses the whole point which is that the police keep getting away with killing people. Medical accidents happen but they are investigated appropriately and justice is served. Police killings are generally not accidents (generally preceded by a lot of complaints about excessive force etc.) by officers trained in killology. You don’t see surgeons cutting into the wrong patient with a homemade custom scalpel with “you’re fucked” engraved in the handle and if one killed someone like that then they’d not get away with it. Show me all the cases of nurses or doctors that have been on trial for mistakes or negligence that resulted in death. George Floyd's killer is on trial now. The "you're fucked' guy was on trial. In reality nurses and doctors whose mistakes kill people not only don't go to jail but they aren't even tried and often don't even lose their license. Yet "justice is served"
This argument is getting ridiculous. The onus is on you to provide the evidence that doctors are exonerated by qualified immunity every time they go on trial in a malpractice suit.
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Norway28712 Posts
1: Very rarely do we see doctors kill people where there's a suspicion that this was the intention.
2: The prevalence of gun crime in the US isn't all that relevant to how frequently american police kill people that are unarmed / not armed with a gun, although I understand that there can be instances of 'I thought he had a gun' where they actually didn't.
3: While occasional mistakes made by police can/ should be expected, if we demonstrate that american police have far less training than their european counterparts, and make far more mistakes than their european counterparts, then 'police need more training' seems like a reasonable conclusion to make.
4: While I don't really know whether the rules for accountability for doctors are strict enough / sufficiently strictly enforced, if it is the case that they aren't strict enough or not sufficiently strictly enforced, that's a reason to argue for better enforcement of doctor's accountability, not a reason to argue for less accountability for police.
5: I definitely understand and accept that American police 'have to' kill more than Norwegian police do. Norway just had its first murder of 2021 two days ago (not first police killing, first murder, period) - if this ratio is maintained, then we'll end up with 4 murders in a population of 5 million, or something like 0.08 out of 100k. The US has something like 5 per 100k.
6: Police are part of why your society is violent. Violent police is a reflection of a violent society, but a violent society is also a reflection of a violent police. These interactions manifest to greater or smaller degrees throughout every layer of society - but the behavior of any type of public official influences behavior of the greater public.
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On April 14 2021 17:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
1: Very rarely do we see doctors kill people where there's a suspicion that this was the intention.
2: The prevalence of gun crime in the US isn't all that relevant to how frequently american police kill people that are unarmed / not armed with a gun, although I understand that there can be instances of 'I thought he had a gun' where they actually didn't.
3: While occasional mistakes made by police can/ should be expected, if we demonstrate that american police have far less training than their european counterparts, and make far more mistakes than their european counterparts, then 'police need more training' seems like a reasonable conclusion to make.
4: While I don't really know whether the rules for accountability for doctors are strict enough / sufficiently strictly enforced, if it is the case that they aren't strict enough or not sufficiently strictly enforced, that's a reason to argue for better enforcement of doctor's accountability, not a reason to argue for less accountability for police.
5: I definitely understand and accept that American police 'have to' kill more than Norwegian police do. Norway just had its first murder of 2021 two days ago (not first police killing, first murder, period) - if this ratio is maintained, then we'll end up with 4 murders in a population of 5 million, or something like 0.08 out of 100k. The US has something like 5 per 100k.
6: Police are part of why your society is violent. Violent police is a reflection of a violent society, but a violent society is also a reflection of a violent police. These interactions manifest to greater or smaller degrees throughout every layer of society - but the behavior of any type of public official influences behavior of the greater public.
While gun control is a very reasonable first step, I would not expect it to be a definite solution in the US, as the problem seems much deeper to me, where using guns is a natural way to solve problems if things go badly, and there is a long chain of mass shooters inspiring eachoter.
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Canada11370 Posts
4: While I don't really know whether the rules for accountability for doctors are strict enough / sufficiently strictly enforced, if it is the case that they aren't strict enough or not sufficiently strictly enforced, that's a reason to argue for better enforcement of doctor's accountability, not a reason to argue for less accountability for police.
Yeah, it's not just lack of training. I was watching the bodycam footage for that road side stop with Lieutenant Nazario. My goodness. How is it that pulling over a vehicle over plates escalates to guns drawn and yelling contradictory orders and refusing to identify the cause of the pull over? Sure, Nazario didn't pull over right away, but the senior cop later admits he's familiar with other minorities pulling over in well lit areas- in this case 1 minute and 40 seconds later, travelling at low speeds- very small population, so it takes a bit longer to get to lit area. This is a veteran cop, doing this, not a rookie.
In this case, it ended as reasonably well as could be expected given how badly the cops had escalated the situation, ending with Nazario alive and Gutierrez (the senior cop) fired, but I'm sure there are a lot of other Gutierrez police state types running around. And that's rather frightening.
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On April 14 2021 17:47 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 17:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
1: Very rarely do we see doctors kill people where there's a suspicion that this was the intention.
2: The prevalence of gun crime in the US isn't all that relevant to how frequently american police kill people that are unarmed / not armed with a gun, although I understand that there can be instances of 'I thought he had a gun' where they actually didn't.
3: While occasional mistakes made by police can/ should be expected, if we demonstrate that american police have far less training than their european counterparts, and make far more mistakes than their european counterparts, then 'police need more training' seems like a reasonable conclusion to make.
4: While I don't really know whether the rules for accountability for doctors are strict enough / sufficiently strictly enforced, if it is the case that they aren't strict enough or not sufficiently strictly enforced, that's a reason to argue for better enforcement of doctor's accountability, not a reason to argue for less accountability for police.
5: I definitely understand and accept that American police 'have to' kill more than Norwegian police do. Norway just had its first murder of 2021 two days ago (not first police killing, first murder, period) - if this ratio is maintained, then we'll end up with 4 murders in a population of 5 million, or something like 0.08 out of 100k. The US has something like 5 per 100k.
6: Police are part of why your society is violent. Violent police is a reflection of a violent society, but a violent society is also a reflection of a violent police. These interactions manifest to greater or smaller degrees throughout every layer of society - but the behavior of any type of public official influences behavior of the greater public.
While gun control is a very reasonable first step, I would not expect it to be a definite solution in the US, as the problem seems much deeper to me, where using guns is a natural way to solve problems if things go badly, and there is a long chain of mass shooters inspiring eachoter.
Yep, there are tons of fundamental problems that need to be addressed in the US, from poverty to drugs to gangs to mental health to suicide to discrimination to our criminal justice system, and a lot of them are interconnected.
Also, I agree with Drone's list.
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On April 14 2021 16:47 BlackJack wrote:
So now civil lawsuits count as justice being served? Almost every unjustifiable police killing results in the city settling with the victims family for some large amount of money so if you're counting this as justice served then you're actually weakening your own argument that the victims/families of police shootings don't get justice.
If you want a specific example look at that Tennessee nurse a couple years ago that pushed vecuronium instead of versed on a patient going into an MRI. Versed is a sedative. Vecuronium is a paralytic. The patient was paralyzed to the point she couldn't breathe but also fully aware as she suffocated to death inside of an MRI machine. The exceptionally rare thing is they did try to prosecute her for a bit before I think dropping it. She didn't lose her license though.
Also this topic started when I responded to Eri about the most recent shooting which happened as a mistake/accident. Obviously the accident/mistake comparison to other professions isn't relevant if we are not talking about police killings that weren't a mistake. Doesn't mean I'm ignoring the topic just because I don't immediately respond when the goalposts are shifted. Maybe that's worth talking about tomorrow but for now I'm going to sleep.
I got curious and actually looked at the bolded part: eu.tennessean.com
It doesn't make the point you imply is making.
A trial has been scheduled:
May 27, 2021 — Vaught's criminal case is scheduled to hold its next hearing.
She's also scheduled for a professional discipline hearing, although this doesn't have a date.
Feb. 24, 2020 — Vaught's professional discipline hearing is scheduled to begin at a meeting of the Tennessee Board of Nursing. However, days before this hearing is set to begin, Vaught's attorney petitions a county judge to delay the hearing. The hearing is temporarily delayed, but no new hearing date has been set.
I kind of like this example; the nurse allegedly admitted her error when it happened but the hospital covered it up. A few years later, it all came out to light and she's on trial and the hospital had to provide a plan to prevent a similar accident from ever happening again. The article also mentions that she was likely grossly negligent as she ignored multiple warning that that was the wrong medication [there apparently is a very clear label on the vial] plus other multiple errors, so it is likely that she will lose her licence and potentially face jail time as it is a criminal trial.
If only police departments were forced to provide and enact a plan to prevent any future killings of unarmed people again and killer cops actually faced the consequences of their actions...
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Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
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On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote:
Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
The job that seems most similar to law enforcement, in terms of simply reshuffling bad actors instead of removing them completely, is that of priests, I think. There's very little accountability, and they just practice somewhere else if they end up in hot water at their current location.
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This came out yesterday and I was waiting for someone to bring it up. But this fits into the current discussion. They don't want riots and people protesting and all that jazz, but they continue to spit in the faces of those same people with nonsense like this.
Kenosha, Wis., police said Tuesday that Rusten Sheskey, the police officer who shot Jacob Blake last summer, has been found to have acted within the law and department policy.
In August, Sheskey fired seven shots at close range at the back of Blake, a Black man, as Blake walked away from the officer and toward a parked vehicle where two of his young children were sitting. Six of those shots struck Blake, who was left paralyzed. The shooting touched off major protests in the Wisconsin city.
Chief Daniel Miskinis said the use-of-force incident had been investigated by an outside agency and reviewed by independent experts. The Kenosha County District Attorney's Office announced in January that no charges would be brought against Sheskey.
Source
You can't say it was within the scope of the law and not excessive when the person had their back turned and was walking away to fire 6 bullets into their body. What training calls for that?
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On April 14 2021 16:47 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2021 16:36 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:30 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 16:23 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:21 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 16:16 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 16:10 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:51 KwarK wrote:On April 14 2021 15:40 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 15:19 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
To me a more fundamental issue is that they neglected to adjust for the number of interactions each year when making their argument. If they’re going to do that then they might as well argue that, based purely on the raw number of annual deaths, jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is safer than an interaction with either a doctor or a police officer.
The poster is essentially trying to argue that 2/100 is higher than 1/10 because 2>1. I am not making any argument regarding degree or which is more likely. My argument is that a) humans are not infallible and b) the mistakes by police are demonized more than other professions and it's not purely because the stakes are higher since doctors and nurses mistakes can also lead to death So you’re arguing that the police are demonized because of their high rate of killing people but that other professions that kill people at a lower rate don’t get as much criticism as they should? Pretty weird argument. It also misses the whole point which is that the police keep getting away with killing people. Medical accidents happen but they are investigated appropriately and justice is served. Police killings are generally not accidents (generally preceded by a lot of complaints about excessive force etc.) by officers trained in killology. You don’t see surgeons cutting into the wrong patient with a homemade custom scalpel with “you’re fucked” engraved in the handle and if one killed someone like that then they’d not get away with it. Show me all the cases of nurses or doctors that have been on trial for mistakes or negligence that resulted in death. George Floyd's killer is on trial now. The "you're fucked' guy was on trial. In reality nurses and doctors whose mistakes kill people not only don't go to jail but they aren't even tried and often don't even lose their license. Yet "justice is served" The “you’re fucked” guy successfully sued the police department for reinstatement so he could claim that killing someone made him disabled and get a $30k/year police pension. Are you sure you want him as your example of justice? I didn't say justice was served. You did. I said justice wasn’t served and you countered that by saying that there was a trial. If you didn’t mean to disagree with me about whether justice was served then why did you disagree with me? You said justice was served to the nurses and doctors that killed people. I said they haven't even been tried criminally unlike some of the cops that killed people. So if justice is not served to the cops that were prosecuted criminally how can it be served to the doctors and nurses that weren't prosecuted at all? You keep saying that medical malpractice lawsuits aren’t a thing and I don’t know why. I provided an example of the kind of police injustice that causes it to be in the news, you keep saying “what about medical counter examples” but haven’t actually given one. You just referenced a trial in which justice was famously not served and pretended that was more justice than in the counter examples you never provided. You’re also ignoring that most of the police complaints are when the police deliberately killed someone they didn’t have to, not when they accidentally killed someone. Most of the time the police draw their guns, aim them, and shoot someone they meant to do that. It’s not comparable to a nurse giving someone too much of the medicine they needed. So now civil lawsuits count as justice being served? Almost every unjustifiable police killing results in the city settling with the victims family for some large amount of money so if you're counting this as justice served then you're actually weakening your own argument that the victims/families of police shootings don't get justice. If you want a specific example look at that Tennessee nurse a couple years ago that pushed vecuronium instead of versed on a patient going into an MRI. Versed is a sedative. Vecuronium is a paralytic. The patient was paralyzed to the point she couldn't breathe but also fully aware as she suffocated to death inside of an MRI machine. The exceptionally rare thing is they did try to prosecute her for a bit before I think dropping it. She didn't lose her license though. Also this topic started when I responded to Eri about the most recent shooting which happened as a mistake/accident. Obviously the accident/mistake comparison to other professions isn't relevant if we are not talking about police killings that weren't a mistake. Doesn't mean I'm ignoring the topic just because I don't immediately respond when the goalposts are shifted. Maybe that's worth talking about tomorrow but for now I'm going to sleep.
The fundamental difference between police and medical malpractice is who pays for it. One of the popular police reform policies in this country is that cops have to carry insurance similar to any other licensed professional and this money would come out of their pension fund so that they have skin in the game.
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote:
Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time.
Which solves this problem as well. If you're required to carry insurance then you can't just run away and get a new job in a new department because you're a liability they can't afford.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://scontent.fosl3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/172785179_10157575945540443_6333503086682945292_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=P4OuuN7cMNUAX9QmUWu&_nc_ht=scontent.fosl3-2.fna&oh=861f2ff7b2c509e09bb11418f20d2c5e&oe=60999EF6)
