EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3150
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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EnDeR_
Spain2774 Posts
On April 14 2021 22:56 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: The fundamental difference between police and medical malpractice is who pays for it. One of the popular police reform policies in this country is that cops have to carry insurance similar to any other licensed professional and this money would come out of their pension fund so that they have skin in the game. Which solves this problem as well. If you're required to carry insurance then you can't just run away and get a new job in a new department because you're a liability they can't afford. Is there currently any legislation being drawn up at the federal or state level addressing this at all? As in, insurance or forcing police officers to pay for settlements from retirement funds, rather than use taxpayer money? I would imagine this would be a reasonably conservative-friendly position as it doesn't actually require any practical changes to policing and seems particularly on brand with the 'personal responsibility' stance typically endorsed on the right. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45051 Posts
On April 14 2021 23:14 JimmiC wrote: That is a good point, it is also a group that feels above the laws of regular people, has a implicit trust with society and wants to "handle things internally". ... And most Importantly, happy cake day DPB!!! 🥳🥳🥳 Thanks!  And I agree with you that those are some common themes between law enforcement and religious organizations. Figuring out when it's appropriate for something to be handled internally vs. handled by an outside, independent, legal third party is an all-too-frequent conversation for both of those groups. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26044 Posts
Reading the example of a cop skating Zero posted there. And not even skating insofar as punishment but in any kind of recognition that any wrong was committed, so consistently as to be egregious. At this stage I’m kind of swinging to a Chauvin acquittal and the ensuing absolute shitstorm that would generate as a possible preferable outcome. Of course that would see George Floyd’s loved ones not getting justice, which would be absolutely awful. That said the merely egregious lack of oversight, reform and punishment where required doesn’t seem to be enough to see much impactful change, perhaps it requires a super, super egregious miscarriage of justice to kick it back to the forefront as issued go. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote: Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time. This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8642 Posts
On April 14 2021 22:56 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: The fundamental difference between police and medical malpractice is who pays for it. One of the popular police reform policies in this country is that cops have to carry insurance similar to any other licensed professional and this money would come out of their pension fund so that they have skin in the game. Which solves this problem as well. If you're required to carry insurance then you can't just run away and get a new job in a new department because you're a liability they can't afford. yeah them having to require insurance to be on the hook - for at least grave missteps - seems like a very good idea. optimally it could be complemented by better training and better POLICE gear and tactics. and not just give them hardly used military gear thanks to an overbloated budget there. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On April 15 2021 01:26 BlackJack wrote: This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked. This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that I hardly know where to begin. Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once. The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas). | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45051 Posts
On April 15 2021 01:26 WombaT wrote: Belated happy cake day oh dark ball of plasma. Reading the example of a cop skating Zero posted there. And not even skating insofar as punishment but in any kind of recognition that any wrong was committed, so consistently as to be egregious. At this stage I’m kind of swinging to a Chauvin acquittal and the ensuing absolute shitstorm that would generate as a possible preferable outcome. Of course that would see George Floyd’s loved ones not getting justice, which would be absolutely awful. That said the merely egregious lack of oversight, reform and punishment where required doesn’t seem to be enough to see much impactful change, perhaps it requires a super, super egregious miscarriage of justice to kick it back to the forefront as issued go. Thanks!  It's still April 14th where I live for another 11 hours, so it's not belated here! Personally, what I consider to be a preferable outcome in most of these cases - a scenario that triggers a nationwide epiphany, where new, serious oversight and regulation for law enforcement and criminal justice sweep throughout the states - simply don't align with what could realistically happen. I'm assuming that what actually happens is that, with every new discriminatory tragedy, a few more racism-deniers become more neutral and/or start to realize there's a problem, and so given the dozens -> hundreds -> thousands of times this happens over and over again, the general population starts to be swayed towards the principles that civil rights activists stand for. Unfortunately, it just takes a really, really, really long time for many people to be interested in reforming an organization as historical and ubiquitous as the police. And even still, I'd expect the blue states to make changes long before the red states do. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On April 15 2021 01:41 Stratos_speAr wrote: This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed. Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once. The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas). I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly? | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On April 14 2021 17:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: 1: Very rarely do we see doctors kill people where there's a suspicion that this was the intention. 2: The prevalence of gun crime in the US isn't all that relevant to how frequently american police kill people that are unarmed / not armed with a gun, although I understand that there can be instances of 'I thought he had a gun' where they actually didn't. 3: While occasional mistakes made by police can/ should be expected, if we demonstrate that american police have far less training than their european counterparts, and make far more mistakes than their european counterparts, then 'police need more training' seems like a reasonable conclusion to make. 4: While I don't really know whether the rules for accountability for doctors are strict enough / sufficiently strictly enforced, if it is the case that they aren't strict enough or not sufficiently strictly enforced, that's a reason to argue for better enforcement of doctor's accountability, not a reason to argue for less accountability for police. 5: I definitely understand and accept that American police 'have to' kill more than Norwegian police do. Norway just had its first murder of 2021 two days ago (not first police killing, first murder, period) - if this ratio is maintained, then we'll end up with 4 murders in a population of 5 million, or something like 0.08 out of 100k. The US has something like 5 per 100k. 6: Police are part of why your society is violent. Violent police is a reflection of a violent society, but a violent society is also a reflection of a violent police. These interactions manifest to greater or smaller degrees throughout every layer of society - but the behavior of any type of public official influences behavior of the greater public. I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I think the US police force does need reform and it's inferior to every other 1st world country but I also recognizing they probably have a harder job than any other first world country. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9005 Posts
Kim Potter, the former Brooklyn Center, Minn., police officer who shot Daunte Wright was arrested Wednesday and will be charged with second-degree manslaughter, according to Minnesota authorities. The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension announced the arrest. The Washington County Attorney's Office will announce charges later this afternoon. Potter is currently being held at the Hennepin County Jail. Potter shot Wright, a 20-year-old Black man, during a traffic stop Sunday while officers were attempting arrest after discovering an outstanding warrant. In body camera footage, Wright can be seen pulling his hands free and ducking back into the car; Potter yells "I'll tase you! Taser! Taser! Taser!" then fires her handgun. Wright died on the scene. Police officials have characterized the incident as an accident, saying Potter mistook her handgun for her Taser. "While we appreciate that the district attorney is pursuing justice for Daunte, no conviction can give the Wright family their loved one back," lawyers representing the Wright family said in a statement. "This was no accident. This was an intentional, deliberate, and unlawful use of force." Source Now to wait for the investigation to start and conclude. This is going to be critical depending on the chauvin trial outcome. | ||
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
33 states have bills targeting everything from banning trans kids doing sports to banning medical transition completely. There's so much misinformation being spread about us. Medical stuff for kids, namely puberty blockers, are 100% safe and reversible and are even given to cis kids who start puberty early. Hormones don't even happen without a ridiculous amount of safeguards in place to ensure that this is the right decision for someone. The state of California has allowed trans girls to compete in girls' sports since 2013 and not a single one of them has been anywhere near dominant in their respective sports. Hell, that's the case at the Olympics, where no trans woman has ever qualified since we were allowed to compete starting in 2004. People know themselves with relation to their gender at early ages. I've known I was trans since I was five. These bills are going to cause so much suffering and death for my community. Detransition rates are below 1% and over 90% of those are because of fear or societal pressures. No one at any age is being rushed into transition. Almost all of us are pressured to not transition by the medical community and by families and by society. I'm scared of what's coming. One bill here in Texas would remove trans kids from supporting and loving families and force them into conversion "therapy". The state and the country wants people like me to suffer. It doesn't matter that our sky-high suicide rates are as a result of things like these evil laws and that they go down drastically when we're supported. We're trying to be legislated out of existence. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On April 15 2021 02:03 BlackJack wrote: I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly? Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields. And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as: -Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery). Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death? Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm. The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement. The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3252 Posts
On April 15 2021 05:09 plasmidghost wrote: I don't really post on the TL family of sites anymore, but I just wanted to ask anyone from the US to please call their state's representatives and ask them to not support bills banning anything relating to gender transition. 33 states have bills targeting everything from banning trans kids doing sports to banning medical transition completely. There's so much misinformation being spread about us. Medical stuff for kids, namely puberty blockers, are 100% safe and reversible and are even given to cis kids who start puberty early. Hormones don't even happen without a ridiculous amount of safeguards in place to ensure that this is the right decision for someone. The state of California has allowed trans girls to compete in girls' sports since 2013 and not a single one of them has been anywhere near dominant in their respective sports. Hell, that's the case at the Olympics, where no trans woman has ever qualified since we were allowed to compete starting in 2004. People know themselves with relation to their gender at early ages. I've known I was trans since I was five. These bills are going to cause so much suffering and death for my community. Detransition rates are below 1% and over 90% of those are because of fear or societal pressures. No one at any age is being rushed into transition. Almost all of us are pressured to not transition by the medical community and by families and by society. I'm scared of what's coming. One bill here in Texas would remove trans kids from supporting and loving families and force them into conversion "therapy". The state and the country wants people like me to suffer. It doesn't matter that our sky-high suicide rates are as a result of things like these evil laws and that they go down drastically when we're supported. We're trying to be legislated out of existence. Thanks for this. An unfortunate consequence of the right’s current total war approach to politics is that their policy toward trans folk is essentially eliminationist. They use boogeymen like “what if creepy men claim to be trans to harass women in bathrooms?” or “what if mediocre male athletes claim to be trans to dominate women’s sports?” to scare people into banning trans people from military service or prohibiting transition surgery even for consenting adults. I don’t have a specific policy prescription, but I really wish Democrats would make preventing extrajudicial violence against trans people a much larger priority of both policy and messaging. | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2774 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6215 Posts
On April 15 2021 07:55 EnDeR_ wrote: I don't get the hate on the trans community. Even if some trans athlete dominated the field, so what? It still takes a ridiculous amount of time and effort and training and it's damn impressive, female athletes are not pushovers. Think about how many colleges there are in the USA. In every physical sport, males on a school team at the college level will routinely smash the womens international level competition. F to M competition? Sure, go for it. M to F? At any competitive level no. It's fine for a recreational level which is more skills-matching than gender matching, but for professional level sports it's a gigantic advantage, regardless of therapies done. Let's take 1500m found from NCAA (https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/crosstrack/d2/outdoortf/2019-20D2XTO_QualifyingStandards.pdf) 800 Meters 1:48.79 1:51.87 1500 Meters 3:44.38 3:50.68 automatic/provisional qualifying times for men Womens world record 800m 1 1:53.28 Jarmila Kratochvílová 2 1:53.43 Nadezhda Olizarenko 3 1:54.01 Pamela Jelimo Womens world record 1500m 1 3:50.07 Genzebe Dibaba 2 3:50.46 Yunxia Qu Women at a world record pace cannot qualify under mens times at a college level. This holds across pretty much all sports. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26044 Posts
On April 15 2021 07:55 EnDeR_ wrote: I don't get the hate on the trans community. Even if some trans athlete dominated the field, so what? It still takes a ridiculous amount of time and effort and training and it's damn impressive, female athletes are not pushovers. It’s such a small facet of society, albeit I guess it does raise some issues. Far outweighed in giving the correct options, treatment and dignity to all persons. For the umpteen millionth time I very much question the sincerity of the concern raised by the people who routinely raise the issue of woman’s sport. Their only prior interest was in ogling Anna Kournikova and trash talking the WNBA. I don’t get the hate, or the wilful misunderstanding of the trans community, but it is hardly inexplicable. Some people haven’t yet got their heads around the idea that women can do things outside traditional gender roles, or sexually harassing them is bad, so I have little hope in them having any understanding or empathy for trans people. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
This is separate to the hatred toward transgender itself. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On April 15 2021 07:55 EnDeR_ wrote: I don't get the hate on the trans community. Even if some trans athlete dominated the field, so what? It still takes a ridiculous amount of time and effort and training and it's damn impressive, female athletes are not pushovers. It isn't hate for the trans community. I think you aren't appreciating how massive the difference between genders is in certain sports. There's no real reason to have gender-specific sports if we allow trans people to compete. I think it is totally worthwhile for women to have an area they can compete in. | ||
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farvacola
United States18839 Posts
As to the discrete point itself, there are situations where trans athletes may obtain unfair advantages such that eligibility should be given special consideration, but even that begs line drawing problems. Are athletes going to have to prove their gender, and if so, how is that determined? If it’s a line drawn based on hormone levels, who is to say superior cisgender athletes with hormonal profiles that radically deviate from norms should not also be excluded? One way or another, it’s certainly not clear cut. | ||
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