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On April 15 2021 13:39 NewSunshine wrote:
The comparison between police and nurses/doctors is especially odd to me. I'm putting that nicely. Nurses and doctors have a job and responsibility to place themselves in proximity to people who are at a higher risk of death than the average person when they enter the building. They are there to save lives, not end them. Police are meant to enforce law and order, respond to civil disputes, etc. There is nothing in their job description that necessitates using violence to kill people, nor do they encounter people on an hourly basis who can range from slightly to very ill. Police kill rates are only what they are for their decision to pull a gun and fire. People can and do die in close proximity to medical workers for no fault on their part, and even despite their best efforts. You literally cannot compare anything except the fact that people died. There is no conclusion to be drawn from it, except that police seem to kill an interestingly high number of people in comparison to a field where people are expected to frequently die. Which is actually pretty disturbing in its own right.
If you struggle so much with the nurse/doctor analogy just change it. How about engineers. Should the Boeing engineers that designed the fatal flaw in the 737 MAX that caused them to nose-dive go to jail? Should the engineers that designed the walkways of the Hyatt Regency Kansas City go to jail when an obvious error caused them to collapse killing 114 people?
You see, most people don't think engineers or doctors or nuses whose mistakes kill people deserve to go to prison. So why should taser cop whose mistake killed someone go to prison? So far pretty much everyone that has tried to justify their reasoning so far has simply went with "well you see it's completely different because doctors and nurses have the job duties of XYZ and cops have the job duties of ABC." Or just "that's a dumb comparison, doctors and cops are nothing alike." As if one profession's duties vs another's is not a completely arbitrary distinction to decide why one should go to prison for killing someone but the other shouldn't.
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United States43238 Posts
On April 15 2021 16:29 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 13:39 NewSunshine wrote:
The comparison between police and nurses/doctors is especially odd to me. I'm putting that nicely. Nurses and doctors have a job and responsibility to place themselves in proximity to people who are at a higher risk of death than the average person when they enter the building. They are there to save lives, not end them. Police are meant to enforce law and order, respond to civil disputes, etc. There is nothing in their job description that necessitates using violence to kill people, nor do they encounter people on an hourly basis who can range from slightly to very ill. Police kill rates are only what they are for their decision to pull a gun and fire. People can and do die in close proximity to medical workers for no fault on their part, and even despite their best efforts. You literally cannot compare anything except the fact that people died. There is no conclusion to be drawn from it, except that police seem to kill an interestingly high number of people in comparison to a field where people are expected to frequently die. Which is actually pretty disturbing in its own right. If you struggle so much with the nurse/doctor analogy just change it. How about engineers. Should the Boeing engineers that designed the fatal flaw in the 737 MAX that caused them to nose-dive go to jail? Should the engineers that designed the walkways of the Hyatt Regency Kansas City go to jail when an obvious error caused them to collapse killing 114 people? You see, most people don't think engineers or doctors or nuses whose mistakes kill people deserve to go to prison. So why should taser cop whose mistake killed someone go to prison? So far pretty much everyone that has tried to justify their reasoning so far has simply went with "well you see it's completely different because doctors and nurses have the job duties of XYZ and cops have the job duties of ABC." Or just "that's a dumb comparison, doctors and cops are nothing alike." As if one profession's duties vs another's is not a completely arbitrary distinction to decide why one should go to prison for killing someone but the other shouldn't.
Designing a bad plane is not comparable to shooting someone.
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On April 15 2021 16:06 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 13:02 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 12:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 11:08 Salazarz wrote:On April 15 2021 09:09 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 05:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 02:03 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 01:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 01:26 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked. This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed. Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once. The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas). I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly? Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields. And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as: -Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery). Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death? Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm. The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement. The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged. The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument. More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine. That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever. I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines? Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat. I take it you haven't watched the video? She shouts "TASER TASER TASER" before firing a single shot. Then she's like "omg I shot him." It's pretty obvious she did it mistakenly unless she is some deranged psychopath that so badly wanted to murder someone that she would risk her career and freedom to put on an act where she pretended to be firing her taser. As for why she didn't notice the difference between the gun and the taser - probably because she was in fight or flight and wasn't thinking rationally. It's why people that are in gun fights sometimes report that they don't even "feel" being shot. Yet you never hear people condescendingly ask "How do can you not feel a projectile ripping through your flesh?!" Isn't that odd. No I hadn't seen the video. I still think you shouldn't be able to mistake your gun for a taser. Flight or fight is not a valid excuse and shows lack of training. What was she doing carrying a gun in the first place if she can make that kind of mistake so easily?
I also think humans should never make mistakes. If everyone would stop slacking the AIs wouldn't be taking over.
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On April 15 2021 16:36 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 16:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 13:02 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 12:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 11:08 Salazarz wrote:On April 15 2021 09:09 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 05:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 02:03 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 01:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed.
Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once.
The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas). I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly? Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields. And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as: -Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery). Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death? Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm. The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement. The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged. The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument. More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine. That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever. I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines? Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat. I take it you haven't watched the video? She shouts "TASER TASER TASER" before firing a single shot. Then she's like "omg I shot him." It's pretty obvious she did it mistakenly unless she is some deranged psychopath that so badly wanted to murder someone that she would risk her career and freedom to put on an act where she pretended to be firing her taser. As for why she didn't notice the difference between the gun and the taser - probably because she was in fight or flight and wasn't thinking rationally. It's why people that are in gun fights sometimes report that they don't even "feel" being shot. Yet you never hear people condescendingly ask "How do can you not feel a projectile ripping through your flesh?!" Isn't that odd. No I hadn't seen the video. I still think you shouldn't be able to mistake your gun for a taser. Flight or fight is not a valid excuse and shows lack of training. What was she doing carrying a gun in the first place if she can make that kind of mistake so easily? I also think humans should never make mistakes. If everyone would stop slacking the AIs wouldn't be taking over.
What a stupid answer.
If someone makes such a basic mistake with such horrific consequences there needs to be an investigation as to why that mistake was made, and the weaknesses that led to the mistake need to be identified and fixed.
That's standard practice in any business. For example, if a nurse mistook some medication for a different medication then her bosses would 100% have to change their procedures to make that mistake more difficult to make in the future for other medical staff.
I take it your investigation would say 'oh well never mind' and that's it?
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On April 15 2021 16:42 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 16:36 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 16:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 13:02 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 12:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 11:08 Salazarz wrote:On April 15 2021 09:09 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 05:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 02:03 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide
Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly?
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields. And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as: -Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery). Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death? Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm. The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement. The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged. The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument. More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine. That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever. I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines? Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat. I take it you haven't watched the video? She shouts "TASER TASER TASER" before firing a single shot. Then she's like "omg I shot him." It's pretty obvious she did it mistakenly unless she is some deranged psychopath that so badly wanted to murder someone that she would risk her career and freedom to put on an act where she pretended to be firing her taser. As for why she didn't notice the difference between the gun and the taser - probably because she was in fight or flight and wasn't thinking rationally. It's why people that are in gun fights sometimes report that they don't even "feel" being shot. Yet you never hear people condescendingly ask "How do can you not feel a projectile ripping through your flesh?!" Isn't that odd. No I hadn't seen the video. I still think you shouldn't be able to mistake your gun for a taser. Flight or fight is not a valid excuse and shows lack of training. What was she doing carrying a gun in the first place if she can make that kind of mistake so easily? I also think humans should never make mistakes. If everyone would stop slacking the AIs wouldn't be taking over. What a stupid answer. If someone makes such a basic mistake with such horrific consequences there needs to be an investigation as to why that mistake was made, and the weaknesses that led to the mistake need to be identified and fixed. That's standard practice in any business. For example, if a nurse mistook some medication for a different medication then her bosses would 100% have to change their procedures to make that mistake more difficult to make in teh future for other medical staff. I take it your investigation would say 'oh well never mind' and that's it?
Yes this is constantly done. Tons of money and research goes into preventing medical errors. Tons of training goes into educating and reeducating nurses. Yet a medication error will happen today, they will happen tomorrow and they will happen the day after that. Not even one but HUNDREDS in just the US alone. Probably Thousands worldwide. Every single day, day after day.
Why? Why don't they just investigate these reasons for these mistakes and fix them? Because, again, humans are not infallible and they are prone to errors.
I'm not saying don't do a root cause analysis, try to find out what went wrong, see how it can be prevented in the future. That's all great. I'm asking whether someone should go to prison for an error that they made when we both understand that human error is 100% inevitable and it will happen again.
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On April 15 2021 16:55 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 16:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 16:36 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 16:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 13:02 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 12:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 11:08 Salazarz wrote:On April 15 2021 09:09 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 05:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields.
And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as:
-Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting.
-Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk).
-A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery).
Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death?
Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm.
The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement.
The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged. The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument. More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine. That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever. I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines? Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat. I take it you haven't watched the video? She shouts "TASER TASER TASER" before firing a single shot. Then she's like "omg I shot him." It's pretty obvious she did it mistakenly unless she is some deranged psychopath that so badly wanted to murder someone that she would risk her career and freedom to put on an act where she pretended to be firing her taser. As for why she didn't notice the difference between the gun and the taser - probably because she was in fight or flight and wasn't thinking rationally. It's why people that are in gun fights sometimes report that they don't even "feel" being shot. Yet you never hear people condescendingly ask "How do can you not feel a projectile ripping through your flesh?!" Isn't that odd. No I hadn't seen the video. I still think you shouldn't be able to mistake your gun for a taser. Flight or fight is not a valid excuse and shows lack of training. What was she doing carrying a gun in the first place if she can make that kind of mistake so easily? I also think humans should never make mistakes. If everyone would stop slacking the AIs wouldn't be taking over. What a stupid answer. If someone makes such a basic mistake with such horrific consequences there needs to be an investigation as to why that mistake was made, and the weaknesses that led to the mistake need to be identified and fixed. That's standard practice in any business. For example, if a nurse mistook some medication for a different medication then her bosses would 100% have to change their procedures to make that mistake more difficult to make in teh future for other medical staff. I take it your investigation would say 'oh well never mind' and that's it? Yes this is constantly done. Tons of money and research goes into preventing medical errors. Tons of training goes into educating and reeducating nurses. Yet a medication error will happen today, they will happen tomorrow and they will happen the day after that. Not even one but HUNDREDS in just the US alone. Probably Thousands worldwide. Every single day, day after day. Why? Why don't they just investigate these reasons for these mistakes and fix them? Because, again, humans are not infallible and they are prone to errors. I'm not saying don't do a root cause analysis, try to find out what went wrong, see how it can be prevented in the future. That's all great. I'm asking whether someone should go to prison for an error that they made when we both understand that human error is 100% inevitable and it will happen again.
I joined this debate today and never said she should go to jail.
In fact, I'm not sure she should go to jail.
I do however believe that police should be held to higher standards than other public workers, because they are equipped to use deadly force and do so without the consent of the individual. When you use a train, you have given your consent for the engineer to have done their work, the same is usually true of medical situations.
If an engineer made a mistake that ended up with lives being lost, I can see jail time being a thing. For a start, it would indicate that the company responsible for that person's work was not doing the appropriate health and safety checks to ensure the work was safe, so corporate manslaughter should be a factor.
Personally I think that if medical staff have a good reason for making a mistake ie they were exhausted due to working too many shifts because their bosses didn't want to pay extra staff that were required for safety, it should result in the company facing legal/criminal consequences, depending on the outcome.
In the same way, if a police department's training or procedures can be shown to be deficient in ways that were known but not addressed, they should face legal/criminal consequences if the result is people dying.
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On April 15 2021 16:01 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 13:02 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 12:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 11:08 Salazarz wrote:On April 15 2021 09:09 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 05:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 02:03 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 01:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 01:26 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote:
Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time. This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked. This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed. Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once. The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas). I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly? Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields. And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as: -Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery). Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death? Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm. The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement. The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged. The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument. More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine. That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever. I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines? Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat. I take it you haven't watched the video? She shouts "TASER TASER TASER" before firing a single shot. Then she's like "omg I shot him." It's pretty obvious she did it mistakenly unless she is some deranged psychopath that so badly wanted to murder someone that she would risk her career and freedom to put on an act where she pretended to be firing her taser. As for why she didn't notice the difference between the gun and the taser - probably because she was in fight or flight and wasn't thinking rationally. It's why people that are in gun fights sometimes report that they don't even "feel" being shot. Yet you never hear people condescendingly ask "How do can you not feel a projectile ripping through your flesh?!" Isn't that odd. If someone cannot think rationally during tense situations they probably should not be walking around with a gun and the authority to legally kill people.
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On April 15 2021 17:47 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 16:01 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 13:02 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 15 2021 12:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 11:08 Salazarz wrote:On April 15 2021 09:09 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 05:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 02:03 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 01:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 01:26 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked. This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed. Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once. The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas). I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly? Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields. And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as: -Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery). Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death? Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm. The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement. The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged. The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument. More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine. That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever. I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines? Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat. I take it you haven't watched the video? She shouts "TASER TASER TASER" before firing a single shot. Then she's like "omg I shot him." It's pretty obvious she did it mistakenly unless she is some deranged psychopath that so badly wanted to murder someone that she would risk her career and freedom to put on an act where she pretended to be firing her taser. As for why she didn't notice the difference between the gun and the taser - probably because she was in fight or flight and wasn't thinking rationally. It's why people that are in gun fights sometimes report that they don't even "feel" being shot. Yet you never hear people condescendingly ask "How do can you not feel a projectile ripping through your flesh?!" Isn't that odd. If someone cannot think rationally during tense situations they probably should not be walking around with a gun and the authority to legally kill people.
Absolutely agree, she should never be allowed to carry a gun again or work as a police officer
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I feel that you guys are missing an important caveat in the doctors vs police discussion.
Though I do not agree with the validity of the comparison, this might shed more light to the absurdity of the idea.
if you need an operation, you get a briefing of the risks and stuff and can opt out at any time and resort to touching crystals if that seems less risky to you compared to what otherwise would be the undertaking - removind the appendix, fixing a bone, whatever.
If you're a black person and get stopped by police for fuck all reason, there's no fucking chance to opt out. If that was a thing, therer wouldn't be as many murders by the police.
Imagine a traffic control where you have to consent to having a 5% chance of being shot for no good reason, i.e. your skin color. No fucking body would do that.
And exactly that is the point. If you had to consent to police brutality in the same way you have to regarding risks associated with health care, no fucking body would do that.
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On April 15 2021 18:00 Artisreal wrote:
I feel that you guys are missing an important caveat in the doctors vs police discussion.
Though I do not agree with the validity of the comparison, this might shed more light to the absurdity of the idea.
if you need an operation, you get a briefing of the risks and stuff and can opt out at any time and resort to touching crystals if that seems less risky to you compared to what otherwise would be the undertaking - removind the appendix, fixing a bone, whatever.
If you're a black person and get stopped by police for fuck all reason, there's no fucking chance to opt out. If that was a thing, therer wouldn't be as many murders by the police.
Imagine a traffic control where you have to consent to having a 5% chance of being shot for no good reason, i.e. your skin color. No fucking body would do that.
And exactly that is the point. If you had to consent to police brutality in the same way you have to regarding risks associated with health care, no fucking body would do that.
Yeah I mentioned consent a few posts up. It is absolutely the main difference between these scenarios.
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Ah, sorry, I missed that post.
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On April 15 2021 18:00 Artisreal wrote:
I feel that you guys are missing an important caveat in the doctors vs police discussion.
Though I do not agree with the validity of the comparison, this might shed more light to the absurdity of the idea.
if you need an operation, you get a briefing of the risks and stuff and can opt out at any time and resort to touching crystals if that seems less risky to you compared to what otherwise would be the undertaking - removind the appendix, fixing a bone, whatever.
If you're a black person and get stopped by police for fuck all reason, there's no fucking chance to opt out. If that was a thing, therer wouldn't be as many murders by the police.
Imagine a traffic control where you have to consent to having a 5% chance of being shot for no good reason, i.e. your skin color. No fucking body would do that.
And exactly that is the point. If you had to consent to police brutality in the same way you have to regarding risks associated with health care, no fucking body would do that.
So your argument is that people can opt out of healthcare and go home and die so that makes it less bad if a nurse or doctor kills them?
I'll tell you a story of one of my former coworkers that once killed a patient. The gist of the story is that a patient needed to go to the bathroom but their dialysis catheter was hooked up to something. My former coworker disconnected the patient but when he did that he also removed the port to the catheter (essentially a valve that prevents backflow of blood). After the patient was in the bathroom for a while and was nonresponsive to knocks on the door they unlocked the door and found the patient in a pool of his own blood. Dead. Of course the dialysis patient needed dialysis 3 times a week or he would die but he always had the option to go home and touch crystals and die?
My former coworker was a nice guy too, family man, invited me to his fantasy football league. This happened well before I ever worked with him. I'm sure he felt terrible over the whole thing. I think it's safe to assume he didn't lose his license since he was still working in the same hospital at the same job in the same department.
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I'm asking whether someone should go to prison for an error that they made when we both understand that human error is 100% inevitable and it will happen again.
I for one don't think it was unintentional, but even if it was, it is clearly manslaughter to me. Under our shitty carceral system she should be in jail pending bail/trial.
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On April 15 2021 18:13 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 18:00 Artisreal wrote:
I feel that you guys are missing an important caveat in the doctors vs police discussion.
Though I do not agree with the validity of the comparison, this might shed more light to the absurdity of the idea.
if you need an operation, you get a briefing of the risks and stuff and can opt out at any time and resort to touching crystals if that seems less risky to you compared to what otherwise would be the undertaking - removind the appendix, fixing a bone, whatever.
If you're a black person and get stopped by police for fuck all reason, there's no fucking chance to opt out. If that was a thing, therer wouldn't be as many murders by the police.
Imagine a traffic control where you have to consent to having a 5% chance of being shot for no good reason, i.e. your skin color. No fucking body would do that.
And exactly that is the point. If you had to consent to police brutality in the same way you have to regarding risks associated with health care, no fucking body would do that. So your argument is that people can opt out of healthcare and go home and die so that makes it less bad if a nurse or doctor kills them? I'll tell you a story of one of my former coworkers that once killed a patient. The gist of the story is that a patient needed to go to the bathroom but their dialysis catheter was hooked up to something. My former coworker disconnected the patient but when he did that he also removed the port to the catheter (essentially a valve that prevents backflow of blood). After the patient was in the bathroom for a while and was nonresponsive to knocks on the door they unlocked the door and found the patient in a pool of his own blood. Dead. Of course the dialysis patient needed dialysis 3 times a week or he would die but he always had the option to go home and touch crystals and die? My former coworker was a nice guy too, family man, invited me to his fantasy football league. This happened well before I ever worked with him. I'm sure he felt terrible over the whole thing. I think it's safe to assume he didn't lose his license since he was still working in the same hospital at the same job in the same department.
No my argument is that they have agency over what happens to them.
They are aware of the risks that even highly trained people make mistakes. Which are laid bare plainly.
If you ask me, the mistake by your coworker is grave and should be prosecuted according to law.
Which is ALL PEOPLE WANT FOR COPS! That they are bound by law.
I don't see any contradiction here.
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On April 15 2021 18:21 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 18:13 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 18:00 Artisreal wrote:
I feel that you guys are missing an important caveat in the doctors vs police discussion.
Though I do not agree with the validity of the comparison, this might shed more light to the absurdity of the idea.
if you need an operation, you get a briefing of the risks and stuff and can opt out at any time and resort to touching crystals if that seems less risky to you compared to what otherwise would be the undertaking - removind the appendix, fixing a bone, whatever.
If you're a black person and get stopped by police for fuck all reason, there's no fucking chance to opt out. If that was a thing, therer wouldn't be as many murders by the police.
Imagine a traffic control where you have to consent to having a 5% chance of being shot for no good reason, i.e. your skin color. No fucking body would do that.
And exactly that is the point. If you had to consent to police brutality in the same way you have to regarding risks associated with health care, no fucking body would do that. So your argument is that people can opt out of healthcare and go home and die so that makes it less bad if a nurse or doctor kills them? I'll tell you a story of one of my former coworkers that once killed a patient. The gist of the story is that a patient needed to go to the bathroom but their dialysis catheter was hooked up to something. My former coworker disconnected the patient but when he did that he also removed the port to the catheter (essentially a valve that prevents backflow of blood). After the patient was in the bathroom for a while and was nonresponsive to knocks on the door they unlocked the door and found the patient in a pool of his own blood. Dead. Of course the dialysis patient needed dialysis 3 times a week or he would die but he always had the option to go home and touch crystals and die? My former coworker was a nice guy too, family man, invited me to his fantasy football league. This happened well before I ever worked with him. I'm sure he felt terrible over the whole thing. I think it's safe to assume he didn't lose his license since he was still working in the same hospital at the same job in the same department. No my argument is that they have agency over what happens to them. They are aware of the risks that even highly trained people make mistakes. Which are laid bare plainly. If you ask me, the mistake by your coworker is grave and should be prosecuted according to law. Which is ALL PEOPLE WANT FOR COPS! That they are bound by law. I don't see any contradiction here.
Well in the case of Daunte Wright which started this discussion he certainly had agency to comply with the police and go to jail peacefully and there literally would have been zero chance of him being shot. The fact that he attempted to flee, resisted arrest, and initiated a scuffle is the only reason the cop had any reason to draw either her gun or her taser. I would like to think that anyone is aware of the risk that they might be shot anytime they decide to get into a scuffle with police.
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On April 15 2021 13:02 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 12:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 11:08 Salazarz wrote:On April 15 2021 09:09 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 05:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 02:03 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 01:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 15 2021 01:26 BlackJack wrote:On April 14 2021 21:02 farvacola wrote:
Basically every kind of licensed professional is held to a higher standard than police. One way you can tell is that when a lawyer is disbarred, a nurse’s or doctor’s license revoked, or an accountant’s certification withdrawn, they cannot simply move somewhere and start doing the same job. Police do just that following the rare instances of discipline all the damn time. This is a good point and something that needs reform. It's not a perfect system either since as I mentioned previously even when doctors and nurses kill people negligently they don't often lose their license. The most glaring example of this is probably Christopher Dunscth aka Dr Death. He was a neurosurgeon that was so incompetent or intoxicated when doing his surgeries that he maimed or killed almost every patient he operated on. He would slice people's vocal cords thinking they were a tumor. He did 38 surgeries and maimed or killed 33 of them. The hospitals just let him resign and move on to the next hospital because it was easier than reporting him to the board and having his license revoked. This is such an egregious distortion of the facts that you should be embarrassed. Nurses and physicians are held to a far higher standard than almost any profession. You wonder why you don't hear about many of them going to court for killing patients? Because it so rarely happens. The common statistics cited (e.g. "250,000 deaths per year" from a John's Hopkins study) is completely horseshit and as little as 1/10th to 1/50th that number actually die from medical error in the country per year. Nurses and physicians get fired or even have their licenses revoked for near-misses that don't actually cause harm but very well could have. I've personally seen this more than once. The particular case that you mentioned had several hospitals fire that physician after they learned of his prior surgical failures and/or hurt patients at their hospitals. Furthermore, he was arrested, convicted, and had his licensed revoked. This is literally a precise example of holding him accountable. The only problem in the story is that it took so long to report him (since it wasn't mandated in Texas at the time cuz LulzTexas). I'm sorry, what is the egregious distortion of facts? You basically reiterated what I said. He moved around to other hospitals where he was able to kill and maim other people. Yes, he is in prison now but if you listen to the Dr death podcast you would hear about the difficulties in trying him for his crimes because it's basically unprecedented to prosecute a failed surgeon for homicide Glad to hear the real number is 1/10th to 1/50th of 250,000. So only 5,000 to 25,000 killed by doctors and nurses per year according to you if I did that math correctly? Deaths by medical error aren't homicide by any stretch of the imagination. Comparing physicians/nurses who are attempting to provide healthcare to police officers who are using force for the explicit purpose of subduing/restraining/maiming/killing someone demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of these two fields. And no, your numbers are not correct. Take that 5,000 to 25,000 deaths. Now consider cases such as: -Elderly individuals who are given antibiotics for a life-threatening pneumonia and then end up dying from a C. diff infection, a known complication of taking strong antibiotics in a healthcare setting. -Giving a stroke patient tPA in an attempt to clear a life-threatening clot but the patient dies from a brain bleed (a known risk). -A patient undergoing a surgery necessary for survival but ends up developing DIC and dying (a known complication of undergoing surgery). Are these deaths due to medical error, or should they be counted as known risks to prevent another cause of death? Your comparison is extremely poor because 1) truly quantifying deaths cause by preventable medical error is extremely difficult and 2) nurses and physicians very, very rarely commit felony-level incompetence/intentional harm. The irony of this discussion is that we're not recognizing that the healthcare field has done something that the law enforcement field never has. Deaths by medical error became a really hot topic in the 90's and a huge field of healthcare QA/risk reduction grew out of it. This has created extremely thorough systemic practices that have completely changed how healthcare is performed over the last 30 years. This hasn't happened in law enforcement. If anything, the healthcare field is a great example of the kind of movement and change we should see in law enforcement. The way you are framing this discussion assumes that healthcare providers commit murder/manslaughter quite often and they just aren't held accountable. You haven't provided any proof for this when challenged. The fact of the matter is nurses and doctors kill more people than police through their mistakes. Whether it's many times more or just a few times more is irrelevant to my argument. More people die from nicotine related complications than from meth, ergo meth is a safer substance than nicotine. That's literally the argument you're making right now. Not to mention that vast majority of 'medical mistakes' that lead to death or serious injury of a patient either happen in a situation where the right course of action is incredibly difficult to determine and it's often not even clear whether the 'right' action would actually save the patient anyway, whereas police routinely gets away with 'mistakes' where they quite literally kill someone for no goddamn reason whatsoever. I've reiterated multiple times right now that the frequency or degree is irrelevant to my argument. Let's just say doctors/nurses kill fewer people if it makes it clearer. Are you arguing they should go to prison for the mistakes they make that end people's life? Should taser cop lady go to jail? Is taser cop lady more criminally negligent for mistaking a taser for a gun than a nurse is for mistaking 2 different medicines? Are we taking this lady at her word that she accidentally discharged her gun thinking it was a taser? Because it seems a bit weird to me. Did she not aim? Did the process of aiming not make it clear to her what kind of weapon she was holding? If people are dying because the tasers the police are using are so easily confused for guns maybe the cops need to look at their gun shaped tasers and get the design changed somewhat.
There are a lot of types tasers used by police, that looks like a gun when you are aiming (and if you look at it). It also handles very similar to it with similar grip and weight. This is why a lot of places (e.g. the army) there are rules to have the taser holstered at the opposite side of the gun, so you have to draw with the opposite arm, to create a strong distinction of what you are holding. However that takes proper training, which police in US often lack heavily.
The reason why they are designed like a gun, is not necessarily because it is designed to look like a gun. It is however usually designed to have a good grip, easy aiming and decent handling. The same needs as the design needs of a handgun. So they often end up feeling and looking very similar.
Regarding the issue some old people have with transgenders, know that I support your cause heavily plasmidghost, hopefully it is just the last dying resistance from people with stupid values and ideas. Keep on fighting the good fight.
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On April 15 2021 18:29 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 18:21 Artisreal wrote:On April 15 2021 18:13 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 18:00 Artisreal wrote:
I feel that you guys are missing an important caveat in the doctors vs police discussion.
Though I do not agree with the validity of the comparison, this might shed more light to the absurdity of the idea.
if you need an operation, you get a briefing of the risks and stuff and can opt out at any time and resort to touching crystals if that seems less risky to you compared to what otherwise would be the undertaking - removind the appendix, fixing a bone, whatever.
If you're a black person and get stopped by police for fuck all reason, there's no fucking chance to opt out. If that was a thing, therer wouldn't be as many murders by the police.
Imagine a traffic control where you have to consent to having a 5% chance of being shot for no good reason, i.e. your skin color. No fucking body would do that.
And exactly that is the point. If you had to consent to police brutality in the same way you have to regarding risks associated with health care, no fucking body would do that. So your argument is that people can opt out of healthcare and go home and die so that makes it less bad if a nurse or doctor kills them? I'll tell you a story of one of my former coworkers that once killed a patient. The gist of the story is that a patient needed to go to the bathroom but their dialysis catheter was hooked up to something. My former coworker disconnected the patient but when he did that he also removed the port to the catheter (essentially a valve that prevents backflow of blood). After the patient was in the bathroom for a while and was nonresponsive to knocks on the door they unlocked the door and found the patient in a pool of his own blood. Dead. Of course the dialysis patient needed dialysis 3 times a week or he would die but he always had the option to go home and touch crystals and die? My former coworker was a nice guy too, family man, invited me to his fantasy football league. This happened well before I ever worked with him. I'm sure he felt terrible over the whole thing. I think it's safe to assume he didn't lose his license since he was still working in the same hospital at the same job in the same department. No my argument is that they have agency over what happens to them. They are aware of the risks that even highly trained people make mistakes. Which are laid bare plainly. If you ask me, the mistake by your coworker is grave and should be prosecuted according to law. Which is ALL PEOPLE WANT FOR COPS! That they are bound by law. I don't see any contradiction here. Well in the case of Daunte Wright which started this discussion he certainly had agency to comply with the police and go to jail peacefully and there literally would have been zero chance of him being shot. The fact that he attempted to flee, resisted arrest, and initiated a scuffle is the only reason the cop had any reason to draw either her gun or her taser. I would like to think that anyone is aware of the risk that they might be shot anytime they decide to get into a scuffle with police.
That's victim-blaming and it's a bad argument. It's equivalent to 'she was asking for it when she dressed that way'.
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On April 15 2021 08:50 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 07:55 EnDeR_ wrote:
I don't get the hate on the trans community. Even if some trans athlete dominated the field, so what? It still takes a ridiculous amount of time and effort and training and it's damn impressive, female athletes are not pushovers. It isn't hate for the trans community. I think you aren't appreciating how massive the difference between genders is in certain sports. There's no real reason to have gender-specific sports if we allow trans people to compete. I think it is totally worthwhile for women to have an area they can compete in.
That argument assumes that trans women are basically men with long hair and a bit of makeup, which is very far from the truth.
What is it that gives men an unfair advantage over women when it comes to physical fitness? Is it testosterone production? The Olympic committee seems to think so, see the case of Caster Semenya www.nytimes.com, who naturally produced more testosterone and is now barred from participating. Note that she's not a trans athlete, just a woman whose body naturally produces more testosterone than some arbitrary number that is considered 'womanly'.
In that sense, a large number of trans-athletes take and have been taking hormone treatments to stay within that boundary. What's their unfair advantage?
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On April 15 2021 16:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 16:29 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 13:39 NewSunshine wrote:
The comparison between police and nurses/doctors is especially odd to me. I'm putting that nicely. Nurses and doctors have a job and responsibility to place themselves in proximity to people who are at a higher risk of death than the average person when they enter the building. They are there to save lives, not end them. Police are meant to enforce law and order, respond to civil disputes, etc. There is nothing in their job description that necessitates using violence to kill people, nor do they encounter people on an hourly basis who can range from slightly to very ill. Police kill rates are only what they are for their decision to pull a gun and fire. People can and do die in close proximity to medical workers for no fault on their part, and even despite their best efforts. You literally cannot compare anything except the fact that people died. There is no conclusion to be drawn from it, except that police seem to kill an interestingly high number of people in comparison to a field where people are expected to frequently die. Which is actually pretty disturbing in its own right. If you struggle so much with the nurse/doctor analogy just change it. How about engineers. Should the Boeing engineers that designed the fatal flaw in the 737 MAX that caused them to nose-dive go to jail? Should the engineers that designed the walkways of the Hyatt Regency Kansas City go to jail when an obvious error caused them to collapse killing 114 people? You see, most people don't think engineers or doctors or nuses whose mistakes kill people deserve to go to prison. So why should taser cop whose mistake killed someone go to prison? So far pretty much everyone that has tried to justify their reasoning so far has simply went with "well you see it's completely different because doctors and nurses have the job duties of XYZ and cops have the job duties of ABC." Or just "that's a dumb comparison, doctors and cops are nothing alike." As if one profession's duties vs another's is not a completely arbitrary distinction to decide why one should go to prison for killing someone but the other shouldn't. Designing a bad plane is not comparable to shooting someone.
you are not wrong. but it was actually way worse than just design failure. to emphasize my point.
+ Show Spoiler +
here if you want to dive in deeper. https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/boeing-737-max-major-design-flaws-not-a-software-failure
The 737 Max crashes stem from severe design issues and flagrant cost-cutting efforts, not software issues.
it is not the best source I could find in my lunch break but it should get the point across nevertheless. they paid dearly, but as usual, the tax payer of course obliged nonetheless in the end - and thanks to covid - to make a too big to fail company whole again. just like they did with gm in 2009.
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On April 15 2021 18:29 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2021 18:21 Artisreal wrote:On April 15 2021 18:13 BlackJack wrote:On April 15 2021 18:00 Artisreal wrote:
I feel that you guys are missing an important caveat in the doctors vs police discussion.
Though I do not agree with the validity of the comparison, this might shed more light to the absurdity of the idea.
if you need an operation, you get a briefing of the risks and stuff and can opt out at any time and resort to touching crystals if that seems less risky to you compared to what otherwise would be the undertaking - removind the appendix, fixing a bone, whatever.
If you're a black person and get stopped by police for fuck all reason, there's no fucking chance to opt out. If that was a thing, therer wouldn't be as many murders by the police.
Imagine a traffic control where you have to consent to having a 5% chance of being shot for no good reason, i.e. your skin color. No fucking body would do that.
And exactly that is the point. If you had to consent to police brutality in the same way you have to regarding risks associated with health care, no fucking body would do that. So your argument is that people can opt out of healthcare and go home and die so that makes it less bad if a nurse or doctor kills them? I'll tell you a story of one of my former coworkers that once killed a patient. The gist of the story is that a patient needed to go to the bathroom but their dialysis catheter was hooked up to something. My former coworker disconnected the patient but when he did that he also removed the port to the catheter (essentially a valve that prevents backflow of blood). After the patient was in the bathroom for a while and was nonresponsive to knocks on the door they unlocked the door and found the patient in a pool of his own blood. Dead. Of course the dialysis patient needed dialysis 3 times a week or he would die but he always had the option to go home and touch crystals and die? My former coworker was a nice guy too, family man, invited me to his fantasy football league. This happened well before I ever worked with him. I'm sure he felt terrible over the whole thing. I think it's safe to assume he didn't lose his license since he was still working in the same hospital at the same job in the same department. No my argument is that they have agency over what happens to them. They are aware of the risks that even highly trained people make mistakes. Which are laid bare plainly. If you ask me, the mistake by your coworker is grave and should be prosecuted according to law. Which is ALL PEOPLE WANT FOR COPS! That they are bound by law. I don't see any contradiction here. Well in the case of Daunte Wright which started this discussion he certainly had agency to comply with the police and go to jail peacefully and there literally would have been zero chance of him being shot. The fact that he attempted to flee, resisted arrest, and initiated a scuffle is the only reason the cop had any reason to draw either her gun or her taser. I would like to think that anyone is aware of the risk that they might be shot anytime they decide to get into a scuffle with police.
I agree with this. I dont think anyone would state that resisting arrest should be a death sentence, but at the same time if you play stupid games you win stupid prizes. Its a horrible situation for all that are involved but we all know this is a real possibility that this kind of stuff happens if you fight with someone that is armed (police, civilian, or otherwise).
Its like walking in a bad neighborhood at night and getting mugged, is it the persons fault that they got mugged? Absolutely not. But at the same time a lesson learned could be to avoid sketchy areas after dark. Thats for self interest more than victim blaming.
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EPT
