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On January 23 2021 02:58 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 02:44 Nevuk wrote: By restitution, do you mean reparations? No one has ever seriously believed those would happen, even on the far left. It's a "yeah, it should happen. Too bad it never will" level of commitment.
Anyways, the idea behind at least AOC's plans (medicare for all, green new deal) are that in the short terms these are very expensive programs, but that the long term payoff makes them necessary - avoiding healthcare reform means 30 trillion dollars in 10 years instead of 20 trillion dollars now, that sort of principle. Education is an area where we're going to need more college educated people, not less, to compete in a modern economy. Same for the green new deal (though it has some obvious issues) - clinging to coal just means that we're funding something that's going to die within a couple of decades, it's like trying to revive whale hunting in the 1910s. Same for student loan reform - it doesn't work to have the economy's heaviest spenders be paying a 30% higher tax rate than those who spend the least.
While our GDP to debt ratio is on the higher end, it's not in the top 10 and as the international reserve currency we can be somewhat less concerned about it. Additionally, the majority of US debt is held by US citizens, not foreign countries. I totally get it. And when watching a movie from 80's or 90's like "American President" that brings up environmental spending, you realize we could have had a 20-30 year jump on the word in advancing the renewable industry. I'm not arguing against any single leftist idea (not all are bad), but just pointing out Biden is going to shredded for not "doing enough" no matter how effective he is as a liberal president. One of his benefits on this front so far is that the republicans are acting like total morons still, and the press somehow went into having negative IQ on both-sideism reporting.
It's still a lesser of two evils option as a leftist, but one option are generic politicians and the other are mouth breathing Nazis who aren't able to contain their contempt for non-members of their party for even two seconds.
GOP Congresspeople kept trying to bring guns into the capitol building, so they installed metal detectors. Then they started avoiding the detectors. Then Nancy Pelosi said she was issuing 10$k fines per avoidance, and when a congressperson had a gun taken away from them on Thursday, they tried to give it to a different and completely unlicensed congressperson in front of security. AOC cited this as why she wasn't at the inauguration - and I don't blame her.
Hannity claimed that Biden's first week was disastrous last night. You know, when Biden had been president for literally 24 hours? It's basically impossible to parody how stupid and predictable this was.
Gingrich also said Democrats want to "exterminate" republicans on the same show.
Fox New's chief example of nepotism, Steve Doocy's son Peter Doocy, WH correspondent for the network, got into an absurd back and forth over whether a mask mandate on federal property is actually justified with the press secretary.
NYT asked Biden's press secretary how he could be serious about bipartisanship if he didn't have any GOP cabinet members (which almost never happens).
Other press members have been attacking Biden for not having a bold enough plan for COVID vaccines, as his 100 million in first 100 days target is already being reached (1 million per day), and criticising his press secretary for presenting it as a bold plan. Pretty pointless.
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On January 23 2021 03:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 02:58 BisuDagger wrote:On January 23 2021 02:44 Nevuk wrote: By restitution, do you mean reparations? No one has ever seriously believed those would happen, even on the far left. It's a "yeah, it should happen. Too bad it never will" level of commitment.
Anyways, the idea behind at least AOC's plans (medicare for all, green new deal) are that in the short terms these are very expensive programs, but that the long term payoff makes them necessary - avoiding healthcare reform means 30 trillion dollars in 10 years instead of 20 trillion dollars now, that sort of principle. Education is an area where we're going to need more college educated people, not less, to compete in a modern economy. Same for the green new deal (though it has some obvious issues) - clinging to coal just means that we're funding something that's going to die within a couple of decades, it's like trying to revive whale hunting in the 1910s. Same for student loan reform - it doesn't work to have the economy's heaviest spenders be paying a 30% higher tax rate than those who spend the least.
While our GDP to debt ratio is on the higher end, it's not in the top 10 and as the international reserve currency we can be somewhat less concerned about it. Additionally, the majority of US debt is held by US citizens, not foreign countries. I totally get it. And when watching a movie from 80's or 90's like "American President" that brings up environmental spending, you realize we could have had a 20-30 year jump on the word in advancing the renewable industry. I'm not arguing against any single leftist idea (not all are bad), but just pointing out Biden is going to shredded for not "doing enough" no matter how effective he is as a liberal president. I'm sure he will, almost every president (government leader) does partly because making changes in government is hard when you have so many people impacted and require so much to make it happen. It happens more to a left president than to a conservative one because part of what makes a conservative a conservative is not changing, but people often want some changes back, whereas a progressive ones voters want and are expecting change. This is also going to be a extra hard job because a bunch of Bidens early work is going to be around just getting things working again after Trump didn't fill positions or filled them with unqualified ever changing people. The advantage Biden has is the incumbent advantage and that Trump was bad enough (to those who didn't vote for him) then I doubt in 4 years people will forget and that will likely reflect on the Republican candidate regardless of whether they are similar to Trump or even someone who has been anti trump. The bigger problem for the dems will be in 2 years when it is likely that we won't be past the Covid created economic issues, the stimulus stuff will likely be over and as you suggest peoples expectations for change won't be reached.
On January 23 2021 03:09 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 03:00 LegalLord wrote:On January 23 2021 02:38 Mohdoo wrote:On January 23 2021 02:14 LegalLord wrote: Looks like the student loan pause now stretches out through the end of September. Not unexpected, but Biden just made it so.
I'm glad to get a few more months of reprieve on that one to be sure, but I cant help but wonder how this is going to play when it's time to start ending these blanket forbearance programs. One day our debt crisis will cause a meltdown and we might be able to push that out for several years, but not forever. In my eyes, this level of delay has basically made it impossible for dems to resume payments. For many people, student loans are an enormous portion of their income. You can’t take that away for 2 years and expect everything to be peachy when it starts back up. Right or wrong, people will be basically unwilling to pay in October. Lots of people have accumulated a lot of credit card debt during COVID too. More broadly speaking, the financial health of the average student loan borrower is not going to be appreciably better in October. Even if we ignore the ethics and whatnot of student loan deferral or forgiveness, this will go very poorly in October. And it’s so obviously the case that I expect this time to be the time Biden and his team use to figure out a more long term solution We're in such a no-win situation that the only possible "long-term solution" anyone has is hoping that MMT is real. The other option is to accept an economic meltdown and deal with the fallout, sooner or later. We definitely need to stop allowing students to use credit cards to pay for tuition and force a maximum interest rate on these loans to a very small amount. And we need to stop idiots from paying of student loans with credit cards. These are just temporary things to slow future debt burdens while a a real solution is put in place.
Those are sensible and would help, I'm not sure how you could enforce the credit card thing since even they can't use it directly on the loan they could still use it for rent food and so on, which still has basically the same result.
I think something more drastic needs to be done involved in keeping costs down. It might also make sense to have some programs that make the most needed careers, the education around those less expensive or alternatively limits on what can be charged for the education that does not lead to future careers. These policies would be far from perfect but I think would be less bad than what is now. If a university can only charge x for poetry (and nothing wrong it and there is value just not $$$) but can charge y for engineering/medicine/comp sci or whatever the for profit universities will push to have more students in those disciplines. While I disagree with for profit education for many reasons, if that is staying we need to find a way to align the universities goals (relating to profit) more match with what helps American society.
Just spit balling here as I don't know the answer but I am sure that what is happening now is not working and I think that if getting away from the for profit universities is a non starter there needs to be a specific and new/outside the box solution to make them work better.
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On January 23 2021 02:36 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 02:14 LegalLord wrote: Looks like the student loan pause now stretches out through the end of September. Not unexpected, but Biden just made it so.
I'm glad to get a few more months of reprieve on that one to be sure, but I cant help but wonder how this is going to play when it's time to start ending these blanket forbearance programs. One day our debt crisis will cause a meltdown and we might be able to push that out for several years, but not forever. Can't pay for that, environmental reform, improved immigrant programs, restitution, and the dozen other trillion dollar ideas that leftists like Bernie Sanders are calling for. I'm not arguing that any of these programs are bad ideas or not needed, but the fact that Biden has to be selective about which programs he chooses will put him in the cross hair by political opponents within his own party.
It is weird how this problem immediately appears the second Biden is president, yet was miraculously not a problem when Trump lowered taxes for the superrich.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On January 23 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 03:00 LegalLord wrote:On January 23 2021 02:38 Mohdoo wrote:On January 23 2021 02:14 LegalLord wrote: Looks like the student loan pause now stretches out through the end of September. Not unexpected, but Biden just made it so.
I'm glad to get a few more months of reprieve on that one to be sure, but I cant help but wonder how this is going to play when it's time to start ending these blanket forbearance programs. One day our debt crisis will cause a meltdown and we might be able to push that out for several years, but not forever. In my eyes, this level of delay has basically made it impossible for dems to resume payments. For many people, student loans are an enormous portion of their income. You can’t take that away for 2 years and expect everything to be peachy when it starts back up. Right or wrong, people will be basically unwilling to pay in October. Lots of people have accumulated a lot of credit card debt during COVID too. More broadly speaking, the financial health of the average student loan borrower is not going to be appreciably better in October. Even if we ignore the ethics and whatnot of student loan deferral or forgiveness, this will go very poorly in October. And it’s so obviously the case that I expect this time to be the time Biden and his team use to figure out a more long term solution We're in such a no-win situation that the only possible "long-term solution" anyone has is hoping that MMT is real. The other option is to accept an economic meltdown and deal with the fallout, sooner or later. Right, it is a terrible situation either way. So then that means politicians are incentivized to do whichever one doesn't result in political fallout. Democrats simply can't afford to say "go fuck yourselves millennials". Selfishly, they need to at least make millennials not angry. They will be very angry in October at the current trajectory. In a pinch, millennials and younger are probably the best group to make angry if there's no getting around it. The less they vote, the less likely they can rely on some rent-seeking favors from the government. So bring on those student loan payments posthaste.
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On January 23 2021 03:05 oBlade wrote: + Show Spoiler +On January 23 2021 03:05 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 17:43 Nouar wrote:On January 22 2021 12:57 Zambrah wrote: The material difference is that the Paris Climate Agreement doesn't somehow uniquely benefit parisians. Its like saying the Treaty of Versailles was really a treaty benefiting the french. Its kind of true in that its probably a good thing for the french that World War I ended, but framing it like its some unique benefit to France over anyone else is weird, dumb, and probably dishonest framing. Add to that that in this case, the US is suffering a whole lot more from climate change than France. We don't have an increased hurricane season or devastating fires or a risk to be flooded. Maybe a hotter summer and the south is suffering a bit more from droughts (for now). So it's not even a benefit for France over the US. I guess he meant to say their view for America First, policy wise, it to become Flint across the US. They would have gotten his message better. The message isn't that "Paris"/France benefits from it at the expense of the US (if you are familiar with arguments as to the opposition of the Paris Accords beside the low hanging fruit that climate change is a hoax, it's that it benefits the developing world at the expense of hamstringing the developed western world, of which the US and France are both a part), the message is political about sovereignty, about who makes decisions about US energy, emissions, and economy, the US voters, the Congress, the President, or an international agreement the signing of which may overreach the executive's authority. If you have ever heard "Brussels" said symbolically to represent the idea of other countries making decisions for one's own in the context of countries exiting the EU, it's this kind of point being made. I personally struggle to understand the need to swear rabidly at politicians who can't hear you, what use it serves. When people have that attitude it's natural they will consistently interpret everything the other side says in the least charitable way possible, building a cumulative image of their opponents which over time has a more and more tenuous connection to reality. Show nested quote +On January 22 2021 10:01 NewSunshine wrote: Cruz was also in the running when Trump grabbed the nomination what feels like 10,000 years ago now. So let's stamp out the notion that Trump was some kind of aberration, and that they begrudgingly rallied behind him. He was their perfect leader, they wanted someone who could take the mask off like Trump could, and they were happy to have an increasingly radicalized base because of him. Cruz condoned the attack on our capital 2 weeks ago. Cruz, Hawley, Cawthorne, and all the other Republicans who enabled and organized the attack on our capital need to have their asses removed from Congress and thrown in jail. Did he condone those? As far as I know Cruz is a serious politican, unlike Cawthorne, and is also smarter than probably everyone here. Understanding starts with communication, if you don't know what your opponents are talking about, you won't understand how they think... His likability issues aside, he's extraordinarily shrewd so be careful underestimating.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2021 02:36 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 02:14 LegalLord wrote:Looks like the student loan pause now stretches out through the end of September. Not unexpected, but Biden just made it so. I'm glad to get a few more months of reprieve on that one to be sure, but I cant help but wonder how this is going to play when it's time to start ending these blanket forbearance programs. One day our debt crisis will cause a meltdown and we might be able to push that out for several years, but not forever. + Show Spoiler + Can't pay for that, environmental reform, improved immigrant programs, restitution, and the dozen other trillion dollar ideas that leftists like Bernie Sanders are calling for. I'm not arguing that any of these programs are bad ideas or not needed, but the fact that Biden has to be selective about which programs he chooses will put him in the cross hair by political opponents within his own party.
Yes, inability to prioritize in an attempt to appease all factions can leave you with no progress on the front of any particular program. If he were set on not pursuing reelection, it should help him to act without regard for potential fallout.
I think this is the biggest problem with Cruz, if he is smarter then us all (which very well could be true) then he surely knows that all the claims he was supporting about the election being full of fraud are false. And it is reasonable for people, both because of the position he is in and his intellect that many people will believe what he says is true and act on those claims as if that is what happened.
Here is one example.
Cruz appeared on Fox News’ “Hannity” on Thursday night and charged that Philadelphia officials are “not allowing the election observers in, despite clear state law that requires election observers being there.”
Two days after Election Day, Cruz charged that Philadelphia officials were not allowing election observers to watch the counting of votes in the swing state, even though Trump’s lawyers conceded that they had been allowed in the room.
A very smart person knows this is untrue, and if he didn't an honest one would later correct his mistake so the people he told the untruth too knew it was such.
He also did a lot of this
“We’ve seen in the last two months unprecedented allegations of voter fraud,” Cruz said in an early January interview on Fox News. “And that’s produced a deep, deep distrust of our democratic process across the country. I think we in Congress have an obligation to do something about that.”
While factual he purposely leaves out that he is one of the reasons so many people think that, along with many people in his party and preferred media source spreading untruths. This is problematic because stopping the certification makes sense if it is fraudulent which is the drum Cruz kept loudly beating despite him knowing it was not.
“I am angry and I think the American people are angry because by throwing the observers out, by clouding the vote counting in a shroud of darkness, they are setting the stage to potentially steal an election,” Cruz said. “It is lawless and they need to follow the law.”
This was said despite
But the Trump campaign’s own lawyers acknowledged, in a hearing, that there have been Republican observers in the room at all times since mail ballots began to be opened and counted at the Pennsylvania Convention Center.
So while he was saying appropriate things like
As people stormed the Capitol building, Cruz insisted on Twitter that violence “is ALWAYS wrong” and called the attack a “despicable act of terrorism and a shocking assault on our democratic system.” and “Those engaged in violence are hurting the cause they say they support,” he said.
But at the same time still using the supposed fraud and suggesting they need to challenge the electoral college on emails and phone calls for fund raising efforts which even upset less feckless republicans.
“You have some senators who, for political advantage, were giving false hope to their supporters [and] misleading them to believe somehow yesterday’s actions in Congress could reverse the results of the election,” U.S. Sen. Tom Cotton, a Republican from Arkansas who is also seen as a possible 2024 contender, said in a TV appearance on Fox without directly naming Cruz. “That was never going to happen yet these senators, as insurrectionists literally stormed the Capitol, were sending out fundraising emails.”
and
“I ask my colleagues: Do we weigh our own political fortunes more heavily than we weigh the strength of our Republic, the strength of our democracy and the cause of freedom? What is the weight of personal acclaim compared to the weight of conscience?”
Here is another statement he signed onto which is carefully crafted to say allegations but clearly indicates that he does not trust the results, which again as a smart and informed man he knows are untrue. And it did also say there was lax enforcement of election laws and irregularities which is again also untrue and again he knew.
“The election of 2020,” they said, “like the election of 2016, was hard fought and, in many swing states, narrowly decided. The 2020 election, however, featured unprecedented allegations of voter fraud, violations and lax enforcement of election law, and other voting irregularities.”
He not honestly talked about how the courts had not ruled or looked into the election which again is false, they did and found none.
Or as GOP Senator Pat Toomey says
s GOP Senator Pat Toomey points out, Cruz and his allies "fail to acknowledge that these allegations have been adjudicated in courtrooms across America and were found to be unsupported by evidence."
Or as the article says on Cruzs statement
The Cruz statement tries to give the impression that, just because the Supreme Court did not address these issues, that means no court has. That simply isn't true. The Trump campaign has had ample opportunity to litigate its voter fraud and other election claims on the merits. To the extent it failed to do so, it is because they failed to present any evidence of fraud when given the chance. Which of course because of his intellect and position he knew.
Either Cruz is remarkably ignorant about the history of the litigation over the 2020 election (and thereby somehow unaware of the many lower court rulings considering Trump's claims) or he's trying to mislead the public. Neither possibility speaks well for him.
And since you want us to rule out the remarkably ignorant part which I am fine to do that leaves the purposely misleading public result which is what people are so upset about. Everyone should be, those who know that his only goal is to win at any cost and those he mislead since their actions and thoughts are based on a lie. They were not given the opportunity to make a decision based on the truth which is sad.
And you cannot say he was mistaken because he had ample opportunity to correct his many MANY mistruths
A Cruz spokeswoman did not respond to a question about whether the Texas Republican plans to correct his accusation
He continually brought up the distrust in the results, with never once providing any evidence that there was a reason to distrust him. He has a powerful voice and intellect he chose to use to rile people up based on claims that have no merit.
So well he did his lawerly best to disrupt the truth while not saying anything factually wrong he most certainly knew what he was doing and also should understand of the consequences of people who trust him and don't understand that he is not being honest but rather trying to manipulate people to win.
Is this really someone who should be running a state or a country? Someone who is so clearly all about winning for himself instead of doing what is best for the country? It really does not matter how smart he is if he chooses to use that intellect only for what is best for him instead of what is best for Americans, which of course include republicans.
He should face the consequences of his win at all costs in spite of the truth and you should not trust him on anything because clearly he is up for being dishonest if it benefits him.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/02/ted-cruz-republican-senators-reject-election-result-biden-trump
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/01/03/ted-cruz-recycles-election-fraud-claims-already-rejected-by-the-courts/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/02/ted-cruzs-plan-disrupt-congresss-electoral-college-count-wont-change-anything-it-can-still-do-damage-our-democracy/
https://www.businessinsider.com/ted-cruz-will-attend-inauguration-after-spreading-election-lies-2021-1
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/01/07/ted-cruz-riot-capitol/
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/11/06/texas-republicans-trump-results/
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/rex-huppke/ct-trump-fraud-electoral-college-cruz-hawley-election-biden-huppke-20210104-jlyn322woze6dlsfokmpsasg2m-story.html
https://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=5541
https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2021/01/princeton-ted-cruz-eisgruber-trump-washington-terrorism
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Can't dems just be like Republicans and say they are going to keep the filibusters and then just scrap it right after. I don't think they have the votes to get rid of it but there is no reason to work with the republican party after how they have been.
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i don't think cruz being smarter than he pretends is a hot take. he is very smart and well-educated. it is very obvious he exploited the fact that the people reading his tweets are idiots. he is the worst kind of person. he knows he is selling lies but he does it to help him. i really hope he gets punted. after election i dont trust texas to oust him in primary
edit: a word
more bs taxpayers have to pay for. how can he just give this detail? is this constitutional ?
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On January 23 2021 14:19 Alejandrisha wrote:i don't think cruz being smarter than he pretends is a hot take. he is very smart and well-educated. it is very obvious he exploited the fact that the people reading his tweets are idiots. he is the worst kind of person. he knows he is selling lies but he does it to help him. i really hope he gets punted. after election i dont trust texas to oust him in primary edit: a word more bs taxpayers have to pay for. how can he just give this detail? is this constitutional ?
Overt intelligence or education is considered elitist in conservative circles. Ooga booga word play is what resonates with his voters, so it’s what he does.
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To be fair, one of the reasons conservatives dont like very educated people is because they're often perceived to have open contempt for them. Not only conservatives really, but a lot of the lower socioeconomic classes that might be known as "cletuses" and the like, get a lot of insults thrown their way from people who think that they're lesser because they're not college educated, which likely doesn't help keeping them out of the Ted Cruz's of the worlds political orbit.
The contemptuous elite slinging insults at the uneducated masses isn't just some made up boogeyman, its definitely something that happens, and we should ask ourselves why we alienate these people and what we can do to stop alienating them given they're a sizable portion of the electorate.
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Northern Ireland20806 Posts
On January 23 2021 16:34 Zambrah wrote: To be fair, one of the reasons conservatives dont like very educated people is because they're often perceived to have open contempt for them. Not only conservatives really, but a lot of the lower socioeconomic classes that might be known as "cletuses" and the like, get a lot of insults thrown their way from people who think that they're lesser because they're not college educated, which likely doesn't help keeping them out of the Ted Cruz's of the worlds political orbit.
The contemptuous elite slinging insults at the uneducated masses isn't just some made up boogeyman, its definitely something that happens, and we should ask ourselves why we alienate these people and what we can do to stop alienating them given they're a sizable portion of the electorate. There are those who get bullied at school through no fault of their own, for falling afoul of the capricious whims of their peers, and there’s people who lack friends at school because they’re just thoroughly unlikeable. I’d be in favour of the teacher interceding to stop people getting bullied, much less at being forced to be friends with the unlikeable prick.
Not that I disagree about alienation being a factor and elitism being a contributor there that should be avoided, but I guess why people are alienated and what they actually want.
It’s quite convenient to be able to hide behind alienation due to elitism and feeling ignored, even if subconsciously, rather than engaging on the grounds of what you actually want, or what’s pissing you off fundamentally, or what you know about the issues.
Brexit over here really does neatly encapsulate all this. A complete clusterfuck. People were alienated yes, many legitimately but they battered on to get out despite the effects it would have on others, but especially against the improvement of their own socio-economic status despite being repeatedly warned of this. Are those people any less alienated despite getting their way? From what I’ve seen absolutely not. Not talking of everyone here btw, just a particular subset of the Brexit brigade.
I think there’s a danger to think of all poor people as temporarily embarrassed Comrades who, if we just reached them through the right messaging would come on side. Always good to try of course but not at the expense of diluting things to try and attract a crowd who probably won’t show up on the night regardless.
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On January 23 2021 18:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 16:34 Zambrah wrote: To be fair, one of the reasons conservatives dont like very educated people is because they're often perceived to have open contempt for them. Not only conservatives really, but a lot of the lower socioeconomic classes that might be known as "cletuses" and the like, get a lot of insults thrown their way from people who think that they're lesser because they're not college educated, which likely doesn't help keeping them out of the Ted Cruz's of the worlds political orbit.
The contemptuous elite slinging insults at the uneducated masses isn't just some made up boogeyman, its definitely something that happens, and we should ask ourselves why we alienate these people and what we can do to stop alienating them given they're a sizable portion of the electorate. There are those who get bullied at school through no fault of their own, for falling afoul of the capricious whims of their peers, and there’s people who lack friends at school because they’re just thoroughly unlikeable. I’d be in favour of the teacher interceding to stop people getting bullied, much less at being forced to be friends with the unlikeable prick. Not that I disagree about alienation being a factor and elitism being a contributor there that should be avoided, but I guess why people are alienated and what they actually want. It’s quite convenient to be able to hide behind alienation due to elitism and feeling ignored, even if subconsciously, rather than engaging on the grounds of what you actually want, or what’s pissing you off fundamentally, or what you know about the issues. Brexit over here really does neatly encapsulate all this. A complete clusterfuck. People were alienated yes, many legitimately but they battered on to get out despite the effects it would have on others, but especially against the improvement of their own socio-economic status despite being repeatedly warned of this. Are those people any less alienated despite getting their way? From what I’ve seen absolutely not. Not talking of everyone here btw, just a particular subset of the Brexit brigade. I think there’s a danger to think of all poor people as temporarily embarrassed Comrades who, if we just reached them through the right messaging would come on side. Always good to try of course but not at the expense of diluting things to try and attract a crowd who probably won’t show up on the night regardless.
Im sure there are plenty of poor people who are 100% temporarily embarassed comrades (I like that phrasing lol), but we know the Democrats have this problem of being perceived as these Ivory Tower Elites, which is ashame because they used to be the working class party, the party of unions, and blue collar people. Republicans have managed to wrench that voter base away from Democrats, and I don't believe its because blue collar people just became entrenched in ignorance and hate for the sake of ignorance and hate.
The US has had this class of people disproportionately screwed over by both parties since Reagan, if they didn't feel so much hardship they'd probably be more receptive to the people they perceive as ivory tower elites, but instead they get a lot of insults from people from the ivory tower elites party and see very little real change for the better in their own lives when they're actually supposedly in power. Republicans don't do any better to make them feel materially better off, but at least Republicans don't tend to be so openly contemptuous of these people. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say this was one of the driving factors behind the "Own the libs" mentality, they perceive themselves as being persistently "owned" by "libs" themselves, so the idea of turning the tables in that way likely starts to look pretty tempting.
I dont even think the language really has to change from most people, I dont think most people really go around actively insulting the poorer classes, but theres definitely a perception that they're being attacked, and given that they're not going anywhere why not make an effort to appeal to people that have often been an important part of the Democrats base?
Obviously you know this is where I come in advocating for all my commie socialist anti-capitalist policies to help make life less shit for the poor, but I do think that would help win some of these people back to the Democrats, assuming they were willing to commit to becoming a more worker-centric party.
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Big bold plans coming forward to give people 3,000 buckeroonis per kid as a part of the stimulus package. Everything is still extremely early stage, basically all talk without much policy backup right now, but I have to say this is a very pleasant surprise from an administration I was assuming was going to be infinitely too fiscally timid to even contemplate something like this.
So far Biden is doing a good job, so far I was wrong about the overall quality Biden and the Democrats are displaying, and I do like being wrong in these situations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/01/22/biden-childtaxcredit-stimulus/
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Northern Ireland20806 Posts
On January 23 2021 18:48 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 18:34 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2021 16:34 Zambrah wrote: To be fair, one of the reasons conservatives dont like very educated people is because they're often perceived to have open contempt for them. Not only conservatives really, but a lot of the lower socioeconomic classes that might be known as "cletuses" and the like, get a lot of insults thrown their way from people who think that they're lesser because they're not college educated, which likely doesn't help keeping them out of the Ted Cruz's of the worlds political orbit.
The contemptuous elite slinging insults at the uneducated masses isn't just some made up boogeyman, its definitely something that happens, and we should ask ourselves why we alienate these people and what we can do to stop alienating them given they're a sizable portion of the electorate. There are those who get bullied at school through no fault of their own, for falling afoul of the capricious whims of their peers, and there’s people who lack friends at school because they’re just thoroughly unlikeable. I’d be in favour of the teacher interceding to stop people getting bullied, much less at being forced to be friends with the unlikeable prick. Not that I disagree about alienation being a factor and elitism being a contributor there that should be avoided, but I guess why people are alienated and what they actually want. It’s quite convenient to be able to hide behind alienation due to elitism and feeling ignored, even if subconsciously, rather than engaging on the grounds of what you actually want, or what’s pissing you off fundamentally, or what you know about the issues. Brexit over here really does neatly encapsulate all this. A complete clusterfuck. People were alienated yes, many legitimately but they battered on to get out despite the effects it would have on others, but especially against the improvement of their own socio-economic status despite being repeatedly warned of this. Are those people any less alienated despite getting their way? From what I’ve seen absolutely not. Not talking of everyone here btw, just a particular subset of the Brexit brigade. I think there’s a danger to think of all poor people as temporarily embarrassed Comrades who, if we just reached them through the right messaging would come on side. Always good to try of course but not at the expense of diluting things to try and attract a crowd who probably won’t show up on the night regardless. Im sure there are plenty of poor people who are 100% temporarily embarassed comrades (I like that phrasing lol), but we know the Democrats have this problem of being perceived as these Ivory Tower Elites, which is ashame because they used to be the working class party, the party of unions, and blue collar people. Republicans have managed to wrench that voter base away from Democrats, and I don't believe its because blue collar people just became entrenched in ignorance and hate for the sake of ignorance and hate. The US has had this class of people disproportionately screwed over by both parties since Reagan, if they didn't feel so much hardship they'd probably be more receptive to the people they perceive as ivory tower elites, but instead they get a lot of insults from people from the ivory tower elites party and see very little real change for the better in their own lives when they're actually supposedly in power. Republicans don't do any better to make them feel materially better off, but at least Republicans don't tend to be so openly contemptuous of these people. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say this was one of the driving factors behind the "Own the libs" mentality, they perceive themselves as being persistently "owned" by "libs" themselves, so the idea of turning the tables in that way likely starts to look pretty tempting. I dont even think the language really has to change from most people, I dont think most people really go around actively insulting the poorer classes, but theres definitely a perception that they're being attacked, and given that they're not going anywhere why not make an effort to appeal to people that have often been an important part of the Democrats base? Obviously you know this is where I come in advocating for all my commie socialist anti-capitalist policies to help make life less shit for the poor, but I do think that would help win some of these people back to the Democrats, assuming they were willing to commit to becoming a more worker-centric party. I was quite fond of my newly-coined phrase.
I mean there is something to what you’re saying, don’t disagree with it. Just not sure what the breakdown between potentially receptive people who are alienated by such things, and the chunk of people who don’t like sharing, being told they’re wrong on anything and don’t like people who aren’t like them.
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On January 23 2021 21:58 Zambrah wrote:Big bold plans coming forward to give people 3,000 buckeroonis per kid as a part of the stimulus package. Everything is still extremely early stage, basically all talk without much policy backup right now, but I have to say this is a very pleasant surprise from an administration I was assuming was going to be infinitely too fiscally timid to even contemplate something like this. So far Biden is doing a good job, so far I was wrong about the overall quality Biden and the Democrats are displaying, and I do like being wrong in these situations. https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/01/22/biden-childtaxcredit-stimulus/ So far so good, but he better be just getting started.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 23 2021 22:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 18:48 Zambrah wrote:On January 23 2021 18:34 WombaT wrote:On January 23 2021 16:34 Zambrah wrote: To be fair, one of the reasons conservatives dont like very educated people is because they're often perceived to have open contempt for them. Not only conservatives really, but a lot of the lower socioeconomic classes that might be known as "cletuses" and the like, get a lot of insults thrown their way from people who think that they're lesser because they're not college educated, which likely doesn't help keeping them out of the Ted Cruz's of the worlds political orbit.
The contemptuous elite slinging insults at the uneducated masses isn't just some made up boogeyman, its definitely something that happens, and we should ask ourselves why we alienate these people and what we can do to stop alienating them given they're a sizable portion of the electorate. There are those who get bullied at school through no fault of their own, for falling afoul of the capricious whims of their peers, and there’s people who lack friends at school because they’re just thoroughly unlikeable. I’d be in favour of the teacher interceding to stop people getting bullied, much less at being forced to be friends with the unlikeable prick. Not that I disagree about alienation being a factor and elitism being a contributor there that should be avoided, but I guess why people are alienated and what they actually want. It’s quite convenient to be able to hide behind alienation due to elitism and feeling ignored, even if subconsciously, rather than engaging on the grounds of what you actually want, or what’s pissing you off fundamentally, or what you know about the issues. Brexit over here really does neatly encapsulate all this. A complete clusterfuck. People were alienated yes, many legitimately but they battered on to get out despite the effects it would have on others, but especially against the improvement of their own socio-economic status despite being repeatedly warned of this. Are those people any less alienated despite getting their way? From what I’ve seen absolutely not. Not talking of everyone here btw, just a particular subset of the Brexit brigade. I think there’s a danger to think of all poor people as temporarily embarrassed Comrades who, if we just reached them through the right messaging would come on side. Always good to try of course but not at the expense of diluting things to try and attract a crowd who probably won’t show up on the night regardless. Im sure there are plenty of poor people who are 100% temporarily embarassed comrades (I like that phrasing lol), but we know the Democrats have this problem of being perceived as these Ivory Tower Elites, which is ashame because they used to be the working class party, the party of unions, and blue collar people. Republicans have managed to wrench that voter base away from Democrats, and I don't believe its because blue collar people just became entrenched in ignorance and hate for the sake of ignorance and hate. The US has had this class of people disproportionately screwed over by both parties since Reagan, if they didn't feel so much hardship they'd probably be more receptive to the people they perceive as ivory tower elites, but instead they get a lot of insults from people from the ivory tower elites party and see very little real change for the better in their own lives when they're actually supposedly in power. Republicans don't do any better to make them feel materially better off, but at least Republicans don't tend to be so openly contemptuous of these people. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say this was one of the driving factors behind the "Own the libs" mentality, they perceive themselves as being persistently "owned" by "libs" themselves, so the idea of turning the tables in that way likely starts to look pretty tempting. I dont even think the language really has to change from most people, I dont think most people really go around actively insulting the poorer classes, but theres definitely a perception that they're being attacked, and given that they're not going anywhere why not make an effort to appeal to people that have often been an important part of the Democrats base? Obviously you know this is where I come in advocating for all my commie socialist anti-capitalist policies to help make life less shit for the poor, but I do think that would help win some of these people back to the Democrats, assuming they were willing to commit to becoming a more worker-centric party. I was quite fond of my newly-coined phrase. I mean there is something to what you’re saying, don’t disagree with it. Just not sure what the breakdown between potentially receptive people who are alienated by such things, and the chunk of people who don’t like sharing, being told they’re wrong on anything and don’t like people who aren’t like them.
I dont think a strict breakdown is that necessary, the answer is "enough," especially if we consider how many of these people just don't vote period. Of the ones that do though, you dont really even need that many, thats the thing with FPTP politics, you really only just need that many more, and things are run on slim enough margins that even a mild electorate grab from the GOP to the Democrats would likely be of great importance.
On January 23 2021 22:32 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2021 21:58 Zambrah wrote:Big bold plans coming forward to give people 3,000 buckeroonis per kid as a part of the stimulus package. Everything is still extremely early stage, basically all talk without much policy backup right now, but I have to say this is a very pleasant surprise from an administration I was assuming was going to be infinitely too fiscally timid to even contemplate something like this. So far Biden is doing a good job, so far I was wrong about the overall quality Biden and the Democrats are displaying, and I do like being wrong in these situations. https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/01/22/biden-childtaxcredit-stimulus/ So far so good, but he better be just getting started.
For sure, and even this is really only in its absolute infancy. We're still waiting to see if we're going to see a Democratic Senate with some proper backbone to make these big ideas into big reality.
I'm going to continue to be extremely pessimistic and enjoy the moments when reality dawns and proves me wrong though. In either case, right or wrong, I get something out of it!
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You think you have heard about all the horrible crap Trump did bur more and more jump keeps coming out. In a effort to get as many people killed as possible before he left office the Trump admin had the supreme court break all sorts of norms (perhaps rules) and skip steps to make rulings in hours (on cases that had not reached them) with no public reasoning always to make sure people died.
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-complicit-trump-execution-spree-182803719.html
@Farvacola is this as horrible as it sounds? Can anything be done or is packing the court the only option?
Edit: when I say anything done I mean consequences for the supreme court and preventing this kind of end around justice in the future not necromancy since the the biggest issue is there is no fixing it for those murdered.
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whats in it for trump if he accelerates the execution of a few criminals?
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Saying he's tough on crime in a few years and get his status as the big boy back.
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On January 23 2021 23:35 evilfatsh1t wrote: whats in it for trump if he accelerates the execution of a few criminals? It is also not just a acceleration, without him they just don't happen. Not just because he had the SC change rules like the deaths happening as they do in the whom state (since some have since abolished the death penalty) but because he restarted the practice and it is certain that Biden will again stop it.
But as mentioned, goto keep the fake tough guy cred to help cover up from all the hiding and sulking.
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