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On July 25 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:
Binary choices are the absolute worst way to hear someone’s political beliefs. Quote and respond to Drone’s post if you really need me to explain that point.
On how awful our two-party system is, we agree. Distilling something as wide and complex as political beliefs into only 1 of 2 choices forces just about everyone to make a choice they would rather not make.
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On July 25 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 02:59 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 25 2020 01:53 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 01:29 NewSunshine wrote:On July 25 2020 01:06 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 00:53 NewSunshine wrote:
Could we just take a moment in this thread, and envision the outrage from right wing posters in this thread, if literally any of the things Trump is doing were done by Obama instead? I can just imagine XDaunt raging up and down about how un-American we were if Obama had been ordering nameless feds to abduct peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights. Ditto for every time Trump has suggested some new non-cure for the pandemic we face, or for every time he punted the issue to the states, in one of the few times we needed to be united as a country. If it were a black Democrat or progressive doing any of the things we've seen in the last 6 months, we would never hear the end of it.
But no. We really need to focus on Antifa. That is the existential threat to America here. Not the wannabe despot who literally couldn't give two shits whether everyone around him dies of a disease he could've done anything about, at any point. If everyone already agreed, you’d hear just a post. If Obama was defended because right-wing protesters are just so extra bad, and they’re literally a threat to democracy, and it’s different in this case because you can’t mess around with the far right, and that rubbish, then you’d hear a lot more. Performative outrage on stuff everyone agrees is an outrage is for theatre majors. Or like “become a Democrat now or you don’t believe it” hilarity. Oh, I definitely believe that you're an expert when it comes to performative outrage. How about, instead of trying to deflect from the thread again, you take one of the many invitations you've gotten in the last day to step back, and seriously look at the things you're supporting when you try to argue people down. People aren't asking for a lot, mostly just one honest moment of reflection from one of this threads most frequent posters. I've spent my years in this thread challenging a lot of things I believe, and confronting a number of uncomfortable truths that lie at their hearts. I've taken many, many opportunities to step back, and just think about what I believe, and if I can live with myself continuing to believe that. And I continue to. How about you? You envisioned the response from the right wing in a hypothetical, so I’d refrain from doing that sort of thing if actual right-ring responses are deflection. Secondarily, I’d like to refer back to People aren't asking for a lot, mostly just one honest moment of reflection from one of this threads most frequent posters when you don’t get the response you want. Don’t ask questions where you’ll only accept one answer as being genuine. Can you imagine the left if CHAZ was a alt right proud boys protest, and people were shot and raped without police allowed in! Haha left wingers don’t respond, we all know you’d display so much more performative outrage if that had been the case This thread is a consistent challenge to what I believe, and I miss the posters in years past, since been banned or stopped posting, that no longer add their voices. EVEN if that involves re-evaluating why people think as they do. Any honest person should ask themselves if they’re open to being persuaded that Trump is the best choice in the 2020 election to better understand their limits of altering their own opinions. So, if I understand you correctly, your point seems to be this. You are against the abducting of citizens because it's unconstitutional. You are also against the platform of Biden. As you are more against the platform of Biden than against the abuse of power of trump, you have no problem with voting for trump and the Republican party not rebelling against him. Is that correct? I am against federal officers using rental vans and camo outfits detaining civilians. Biden’s platform, in both things he’s for/against, and things going unmentioned in his platform, would be far more destructive to this country than is understood here. It includes abuses of power in terms of sending nuns helping the elderly back to court, and forcing religious organizations to obey the whims of the federal government contrary to their first amendment rights. The Biden advisors and campaign appointments add to my stance on this. Knowing that Trump has done a poor job on things like the coronavirus, foreign policy and domestic policy messaging and explanation, and singling out individuals to blast on twitter means it is absolutely false to put it as “have no problem.” It’s been a best of the worst voting test for me for five-ish presidential elections straight, so I’d like to see some acknowledgement of that truth, because your framing is damaging to the discourse. Binary choices are the absolute worst way to hear someone’s political beliefs. Quote and respond to Drone’s post if you really need me to explain that point.
Fair enough, thanks for the answer. My problem with this is that you do very little to actually inform your political party, or at least other voters of your party, of that position. You allow the Maga crowd to speak for you because you are not trying to change the platform of your party and accept the worst possible candidate for your side to become the candidate for your choice in the first place. If the conservatives with a disdain for trump had rebelled 2 years ago, you might have had a better choice now.
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On July 25 2020 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
I think if a bunch reps had signaled that they would move to the dems had the dems moved center. The dems probably would have since many in power are centrists. But when it became clear that most reps cared more.about being on team Trump than policy or morality. The Dems shifted more progressive to pick up those voters. Realizing there was no position that they could take that would attract the "sensible republican". Who have shown time and time again they would rather support Trump than anyone in blue. My question would be just how far would the dems have to move to actually pick up Republicans. What would that do to Immigration, LBGT rights, healthcare ect.
And would that result in the US having 2 right side parties and basically no left?
*insert complaint about how bad 2 party systems are*
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I think it's also worth pointing out that even if you feel like you "have" to vote for someone because of a binary choice, that still doesn't mean you have to blindly support that candidate to Hell and back. A huge number of Democrats and progressives are going to vote for Biden in November, who desperately wanted a different candidate. There was a whole thread here basically dedicated to talking about why Biden was a 3rd choice candidate at best. That doesn't mean you don't call them out when they do something you think is wrong. That doesn't mean you argue to the hilt for someone you don't even feel that great about. Nothing forces you, as someone who voted for Trump, to act like any average blind Trump supporter. Or to let their idiocy dictate what battles you choose. If you voted for Trump because of reasons X/Y/Z as a Conservative, and he shows time and again to not give the first shit about genuine Conservative values, you should be the first one to say something.
If you think the 2 party system is awful, you can start to demonstrate that by un-hinging yourself from the party line when you talk about politics. If folks continue to argue for and support their Dear Leader for so long, you can only assume it's because they like what they see.
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On July 25 2020 05:03 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 04:51 Gorsameth wrote:On July 25 2020 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
I think if a bunch reps had signaled that they would move to the dems had the dems moved center. The dems probably would have since many in power are centrists. But when it became clear that most reps cared more.about being on team Trump than policy or morality. The Dems shifted more progressive to pick up those voters. Realizing there was no position that they could take that would attract the "sensible republican". Who have shown time and time again they would rather support Trump than anyone in blue. My question would be just how far would the dems have to move to actually pick up Republicans. What would that do to Immigration, LBGT rights, healthcare ect. And would that result in the US having 2 right side parties and basically no left? *insert complaint about how bad 2 party systems are* I think this has shown us there is no amount of movement that would do. Many American's treat there political parties they way others treat their favorite sports team and the "bleed red" or "bleed blue". Who is at the helm and what they stand for does not much matter. It is hard to see what a person who voted for Trump and one that voted for McCain would have in common and yet many voted for both in presidential elections. To me this shows that the team name matters a hell of a lot more than who the person at the top is or what they stand for.
I don't think you can put this down to being an American characteristic. I think its a internet age characteristic. Also I would say that its worse than a 'favourite sports team' situation, because people in this age don't really have political beliefs on most issues until they are told by their party what their beliefs are. I'm convinced of this, and I'm convinced that's why most people's beliefs seem to line up so perfectly with each other based on ideology alone.
Add to that how incredibly efficiently and scientifically politicians are able to manipulate masses of people, and its pretty obvious this situation isn't going to improve any time soon.
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On July 25 2020 04:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
I think if a bunch reps had signaled that they would move to the dems had the dems moved center. The dems probably would have since many in power are centrists. But when it became clear that most reps cared more.about being on team Trump than policy or morality. The Dems shifted more progressive to pick up those voters. Realizing there was no position that they could take that would attract the "sensible republican". Who have shown time and time again they would rather support Trump than anyone in blue. My question would be just how far would the dems have to move to actually pick up Republicans. What would that do to Immigration, LBGT rights, healthcare ect. And would that result in the US having 2 right side parties and basically no left? *insert complaint about how bad 2 party systems are*
The irony being Democrats lost millions of Obama voters to Trump after Hillary ran a more centrist campaign. Don't know how much data there is about whether they were Republicans before voting for Obama or Hillary-Trump caused them to switch which party they support.
I'd just add that Danglars expresses his concerns about Trump and Republicans about the same as Dem leaning posters do. If hiding is a strategy one has endorsed for the presidential candidate they prefer, they should probably lay off danglars imo.
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On July 25 2020 05:10 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 05:03 JimmiC wrote:On July 25 2020 04:51 Gorsameth wrote:On July 25 2020 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
I think if a bunch reps had signaled that they would move to the dems had the dems moved center. The dems probably would have since many in power are centrists. But when it became clear that most reps cared more.about being on team Trump than policy or morality. The Dems shifted more progressive to pick up those voters. Realizing there was no position that they could take that would attract the "sensible republican". Who have shown time and time again they would rather support Trump than anyone in blue. My question would be just how far would the dems have to move to actually pick up Republicans. What would that do to Immigration, LBGT rights, healthcare ect. And would that result in the US having 2 right side parties and basically no left? *insert complaint about how bad 2 party systems are* I think this has shown us there is no amount of movement that would do. Many American's treat there political parties they way others treat their favorite sports team and the "bleed red" or "bleed blue". Who is at the helm and what they stand for does not much matter. It is hard to see what a person who voted for Trump and one that voted for McCain would have in common and yet many voted for both in presidential elections. To me this shows that the team name matters a hell of a lot more than who the person at the top is or what they stand for. I don't think you can put this down to being an American characteristic. I think its a internet age characteristic. Also I would say that its worse than a 'favourite sports team' situation, because people in this age don't really have political beliefs on most issues until they are told by their party what their beliefs are. I'm convinced of this, and I'm convinced that's why most people's beliefs seem to line up so perfectly with each other based on ideology alone. Add to that how incredibly efficiently and scientifically politicians are able to manipulate masses of people, and its pretty obvious this situation isn't going to improve any time soon. I think outside of 2 party systems switching parties is much more normal. Sure a left wing voter is going to keep voting left wing, and likewise for right. Conservative voters stay mostly Conservative ect but there is room to manoeuvre if 'your' party does something you don't agree with there can be another party that is similar but not doing that thing you disagree with.
In the Netherlands since 1990 about 20% of of seats change during an election, and we have a simple and direct system. A party's number of seats it directly tied to their national voting share, there are no districts.
The issue is if there is no 'neighbouring' party to move to, like in a 2 party system.
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On July 25 2020 05:31 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 05:10 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 25 2020 05:03 JimmiC wrote:On July 25 2020 04:51 Gorsameth wrote:On July 25 2020 04:36 JimmiC wrote:
I think if a bunch reps had signaled that they would move to the dems had the dems moved center. The dems probably would have since many in power are centrists. But when it became clear that most reps cared more.about being on team Trump than policy or morality. The Dems shifted more progressive to pick up those voters. Realizing there was no position that they could take that would attract the "sensible republican". Who have shown time and time again they would rather support Trump than anyone in blue. My question would be just how far would the dems have to move to actually pick up Republicans. What would that do to Immigration, LBGT rights, healthcare ect. And would that result in the US having 2 right side parties and basically no left? *insert complaint about how bad 2 party systems are* I think this has shown us there is no amount of movement that would do. Many American's treat there political parties they way others treat their favorite sports team and the "bleed red" or "bleed blue". Who is at the helm and what they stand for does not much matter. It is hard to see what a person who voted for Trump and one that voted for McCain would have in common and yet many voted for both in presidential elections. To me this shows that the team name matters a hell of a lot more than who the person at the top is or what they stand for. I don't think you can put this down to being an American characteristic. I think its a internet age characteristic. Also I would say that its worse than a 'favourite sports team' situation, because people in this age don't really have political beliefs on most issues until they are told by their party what their beliefs are. I'm convinced of this, and I'm convinced that's why most people's beliefs seem to line up so perfectly with each other based on ideology alone. Add to that how incredibly efficiently and scientifically politicians are able to manipulate masses of people, and its pretty obvious this situation isn't going to improve any time soon. I think outside of 2 party systems switching parties is much more normal. Sure a left wing voter is going to keep voting left wing, and likewise for right. Conservative voters stay mostly Conservative ect but there is room to manoeuvre if 'your' party does something you don't agree with there can be another party that is similar but not doing that thing you disagree with. In the Netherlands since 1990 about 20% of of seats change during an election, and we have a simple and direct system. A party's number of seats it directly tied to their national voting share, there are no districts. The issue is if there is no 'neighbouring' party to move to, like in a 2 party system.
I feel like this ground is well worn. Partisanship supersedes progress and the system can't change because the people with the power to change the rules within the system perpetuate their livelihoods by not changing it.
Democrats just gave the pentagon more money (and voted against cutting their funding) and Joe Biden thinks Trump is the first racist president. Might as well start shopping for a new hegemon.
I think many people who vote Dem in this thread would hold their noses and vote against the Dem version of Trump
Biden is about as close to Trump as Democrats can get without just running as a Republican. He's literally argued to preserve the Republican party, calls Trump's sycophants his friends, insists on cooperating with Trump's enablers, and said nothing will fundamentally change.
Not to mention voting Republican isn't much of a solution to a right-wing Democrat.
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Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets.
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On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets.
Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump.
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On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump.
Amongst whom?
538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting.
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On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting.
I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump.
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On July 25 2020 04:16 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 02:59 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 25 2020 01:53 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 01:29 NewSunshine wrote:On July 25 2020 01:06 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 00:53 NewSunshine wrote:
Could we just take a moment in this thread, and envision the outrage from right wing posters in this thread, if literally any of the things Trump is doing were done by Obama instead? I can just imagine XDaunt raging up and down about how un-American we were if Obama had been ordering nameless feds to abduct peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights. Ditto for every time Trump has suggested some new non-cure for the pandemic we face, or for every time he punted the issue to the states, in one of the few times we needed to be united as a country. If it were a black Democrat or progressive doing any of the things we've seen in the last 6 months, we would never hear the end of it.
But no. We really need to focus on Antifa. That is the existential threat to America here. Not the wannabe despot who literally couldn't give two shits whether everyone around him dies of a disease he could've done anything about, at any point. If everyone already agreed, you’d hear just a post. If Obama was defended because right-wing protesters are just so extra bad, and they’re literally a threat to democracy, and it’s different in this case because you can’t mess around with the far right, and that rubbish, then you’d hear a lot more. Performative outrage on stuff everyone agrees is an outrage is for theatre majors. Or like “become a Democrat now or you don’t believe it” hilarity. Oh, I definitely believe that you're an expert when it comes to performative outrage. How about, instead of trying to deflect from the thread again, you take one of the many invitations you've gotten in the last day to step back, and seriously look at the things you're supporting when you try to argue people down. People aren't asking for a lot, mostly just one honest moment of reflection from one of this threads most frequent posters. I've spent my years in this thread challenging a lot of things I believe, and confronting a number of uncomfortable truths that lie at their hearts. I've taken many, many opportunities to step back, and just think about what I believe, and if I can live with myself continuing to believe that. And I continue to. How about you? You envisioned the response from the right wing in a hypothetical, so I’d refrain from doing that sort of thing if actual right-ring responses are deflection. Secondarily, I’d like to refer back to People aren't asking for a lot, mostly just one honest moment of reflection from one of this threads most frequent posters when you don’t get the response you want. Don’t ask questions where you’ll only accept one answer as being genuine. Can you imagine the left if CHAZ was a alt right proud boys protest, and people were shot and raped without police allowed in! Haha left wingers don’t respond, we all know you’d display so much more performative outrage if that had been the case This thread is a consistent challenge to what I believe, and I miss the posters in years past, since been banned or stopped posting, that no longer add their voices. EVEN if that involves re-evaluating why people think as they do. Any honest person should ask themselves if they’re open to being persuaded that Trump is the best choice in the 2020 election to better understand their limits of altering their own opinions. So, if I understand you correctly, your point seems to be this. You are against the abducting of citizens because it's unconstitutional. You are also against the platform of Biden. As you are more against the platform of Biden than against the abuse of power of trump, you have no problem with voting for trump and the Republican party not rebelling against him. Is that correct? I am against federal officers using rental vans and camo outfits detaining civilians. Biden’s platform, in both things he’s for/against, and things going unmentioned in his platform, would be far more destructive to this country than is understood here. It includes abuses of power in terms of sending nuns helping the elderly back to court, and forcing religious organizations to obey the whims of the federal government contrary to their first amendment rights. The Biden advisors and campaign appointments add to my stance on this. Knowing that Trump has done a poor job on things like the coronavirus, foreign policy and domestic policy messaging and explanation, and singling out individuals to blast on twitter means it is absolutely false to put it as “have no problem.” It’s been a best of the worst voting test for me for five-ish presidential elections straight, so I’d like to see some acknowledgement of that truth, because your framing is damaging to the discourse. Binary choices are the absolute worst way to hear someone’s political beliefs. Quote and respond to Drone’s post if you really need me to explain that point. Fair enough, thanks for the answer. My problem with this is that you do very little to actually inform your political party, or at least other voters of your party, of that position. You allow the Maga crowd to speak for you because you are not trying to change the platform of your party and accept the worst possible candidate for your side to become the candidate for your choice in the first place. If the conservatives with a disdain for trump had rebelled 2 years ago, you might have had a better choice now.
I mean you might as well say that Dems let Obama speak for you, the ability of the president of a party to really monopolize the messaging.
But for the full discussion of MAGA crowd, presidential primary politics of the Republican Party, and the GOP from Tea Party to today, it would take more Republicans around here to chime in. xDaunt is dearly missed, but with him and Clutz, oBlade, DeepElemBlues, FabledInt, and Introvert + Sermokala, we could probably pull it out. I can't really flesh out why 1) "allow" the Maga crowd to speak for you 2) worst possible candidate for your side 3) if conservatives had rebelled 2 years ago are very politically out of touch.
The topic has moved on, and I still love how people express regrets for supporting Biden, but are still so stubborn about people regretfully voting Trump.
On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump.
Manchin's one of the only current members of the Democratic party I would vote for ahead of Trump. Kyrsten Sinema is close, because she is willing to buck her party on a diverse range of topics.
To previous quote, left wing version of Trump is AOC, because you gotta be as passionate as you are fact-free to even come close.
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On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump.
Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly).
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On July 25 2020 10:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 08:55 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 04:16 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 25 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 02:59 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 25 2020 01:53 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 01:29 NewSunshine wrote:On July 25 2020 01:06 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 00:53 NewSunshine wrote:
Could we just take a moment in this thread, and envision the outrage from right wing posters in this thread, if literally any of the things Trump is doing were done by Obama instead? I can just imagine XDaunt raging up and down about how un-American we were if Obama had been ordering nameless feds to abduct peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights. Ditto for every time Trump has suggested some new non-cure for the pandemic we face, or for every time he punted the issue to the states, in one of the few times we needed to be united as a country. If it were a black Democrat or progressive doing any of the things we've seen in the last 6 months, we would never hear the end of it.
But no. We really need to focus on Antifa. That is the existential threat to America here. Not the wannabe despot who literally couldn't give two shits whether everyone around him dies of a disease he could've done anything about, at any point. If everyone already agreed, you’d hear just a post. If Obama was defended because right-wing protesters are just so extra bad, and they’re literally a threat to democracy, and it’s different in this case because you can’t mess around with the far right, and that rubbish, then you’d hear a lot more. Performative outrage on stuff everyone agrees is an outrage is for theatre majors. Or like “become a Democrat now or you don’t believe it” hilarity. Oh, I definitely believe that you're an expert when it comes to performative outrage. How about, instead of trying to deflect from the thread again, you take one of the many invitations you've gotten in the last day to step back, and seriously look at the things you're supporting when you try to argue people down. People aren't asking for a lot, mostly just one honest moment of reflection from one of this threads most frequent posters. I've spent my years in this thread challenging a lot of things I believe, and confronting a number of uncomfortable truths that lie at their hearts. I've taken many, many opportunities to step back, and just think about what I believe, and if I can live with myself continuing to believe that. And I continue to. How about you? You envisioned the response from the right wing in a hypothetical, so I’d refrain from doing that sort of thing if actual right-ring responses are deflection. Secondarily, I’d like to refer back to People aren't asking for a lot, mostly just one honest moment of reflection from one of this threads most frequent posters when you don’t get the response you want. Don’t ask questions where you’ll only accept one answer as being genuine. Can you imagine the left if CHAZ was a alt right proud boys protest, and people were shot and raped without police allowed in! Haha left wingers don’t respond, we all know you’d display so much more performative outrage if that had been the case This thread is a consistent challenge to what I believe, and I miss the posters in years past, since been banned or stopped posting, that no longer add their voices. EVEN if that involves re-evaluating why people think as they do. Any honest person should ask themselves if they’re open to being persuaded that Trump is the best choice in the 2020 election to better understand their limits of altering their own opinions. So, if I understand you correctly, your point seems to be this. You are against the abducting of citizens because it's unconstitutional. You are also against the platform of Biden. As you are more against the platform of Biden than against the abuse of power of trump, you have no problem with voting for trump and the Republican party not rebelling against him. Is that correct? I am against federal officers using rental vans and camo outfits detaining civilians. Biden’s platform, in both things he’s for/against, and things going unmentioned in his platform, would be far more destructive to this country than is understood here. It includes abuses of power in terms of sending nuns helping the elderly back to court, and forcing religious organizations to obey the whims of the federal government contrary to their first amendment rights. The Biden advisors and campaign appointments add to my stance on this. Knowing that Trump has done a poor job on things like the coronavirus, foreign policy and domestic policy messaging and explanation, and singling out individuals to blast on twitter means it is absolutely false to put it as “have no problem.” It’s been a best of the worst voting test for me for five-ish presidential elections straight, so I’d like to see some acknowledgement of that truth, because your framing is damaging to the discourse. Binary choices are the absolute worst way to hear someone’s political beliefs. Quote and respond to Drone’s post if you really need me to explain that point. Fair enough, thanks for the answer. My problem with this is that you do very little to actually inform your political party, or at least other voters of your party, of that position. You allow the Maga crowd to speak for you because you are not trying to change the platform of your party and accept the worst possible candidate for your side to become the candidate for your choice in the first place. If the conservatives with a disdain for trump had rebelled 2 years ago, you might have had a better choice now. I mean you might as well say that Dems let Obama speak for you, the ability of the president of a party to really monopolize the messaging. But for the full discussion of MAGA crowd, presidential primary politics of the Republican Party, and the GOP from Tea Party to today, it would take more Republicans around here to chime in. xDaunt is dearly missed, but with him and Clutz, oBlade, DeepElemBlues, FabledInt, and Introvert + Sermokala, we could probably pull it out. I can't really flesh out why 1) "allow" the Maga crowd to speak for you 2) worst possible candidate for your side 3) if conservatives had rebelled 2 years ago are very politically out of touch. The topic has moved on, and I still love how people express regrets for supporting Biden, but are still so stubborn about people regretfully voting Trump. On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Manchin's one of the only current members of the Democratic party I would vote for ahead of Trump. Kyrsten Sinema is close, because she is willing to buck her party on a diverse range of topics. To previous quote, left wing version of Trump is AOC, because you gotta be as passionate as you are fact-free to even come close. It clearly the Bloomer. Both are old New York billionaires. Both bow down to dictators. Both swapped parties not because they agreed with any of the ideals but because they thought they could win. Both have awful hair. Both spent a fortune on advertising. It is uncanny.
Bloomberg is far more level-headed and cautious than Trump. Impossible. Bloomberg made debates boring, and you had to hope that somebody would shove a rhetorical spear into his body to get some life. Trump, love him or hate him, never has a dull moment. Bloomberg hosting a reality TV show is a disaster. Trump is a hit. Bad choice.
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