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Purely from the standpoint of what is legal, it would appear that the president has broad leeway to deal with riots. I'm no expert on the relevant laws but that one is pretty broad. The federal government definitely has authority, under the right circumstances, to move in and deal with a riot.
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On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly).
Curious what you're basing that on?
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On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on?
Political compass.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020
According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang.
Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way.
They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use.
Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government.
As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then.
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On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then.
That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention.
I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics.
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Five months is a long time- February was before covid, back when Sanders was ahead of Biden in the polls. Before the police crackdowns on protests nothing Trump said he'd do authoritarian wise was any more extreme than the average Republican. He's definitely far more corrupt, but that isn't something measured on a left/right scale (and neither is racism). For the most part, Trump has governed as a bog standard Republican, but with lots of incompetence in his execution. Trump isn't a theocratic dominionist, which is about the only compliment I can give him.
Iirc they use votes/signed bills, policy proposals, and public speeches for their ratings, in that order of preference to make their ratings - things said off the cuff in interviews aren't considered.
The biggest objections to Trump have always been the corruption and the racism, I think. (Biggest as in most common ones).
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Whatever their case for putting Inslee and Castro to Biden's right (this is after Castro endorsed Warren), it still puts him well on the right side of the party best I can tell.
Biden went from the economic left of Obama in 08 to the economic right of McCain (08) in 2020. More right-wing but significantly less authoritarian than 2012 Obama by their metrics. Biden did bump up the authoritarianism a notch since 08 (he's not listed in 2012) though.
+ Show Spoiler +
www.politicalcompass.org Plus I added in the positions from other years listed on the site.
What's clear from their graphs though is that the Democratic party has shifted to the right (and more authoritarian) since Obama's 08 campaign. So far right that Biden ran in 2020 to the right of the Republican nominee in 2008 (and all Democrats in 08) and won the Democratic nomination.
EDIT: Before the police crackdowns on protests nothing Trump said he'd do authoritarian wise was any more extreme than the average Republican.
It ranked 2016 Trump as slightly more authoritarian than in Feb 2020, just fyi.
EDIT2:Last bit, I think Neb mentioned this before but it's worth juxtiposing that with 2016 voters
+ Show Spoiler +
Really highlights the drastic political chasm between Democrat voters and the politicians compared to Republican politicians and their voters.
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Just a few random comments:
@velr:i dont know its hard to say. A very close election with trump unwilling to admit defeat would worry me. A very close election is highly likely and trump losing is at least 50% for now i think,but i dont think it is all that likely that he would be unwilling to admit defeat in the end (though no doubt there would be court battles similar to gore vs bush).
And would that result in the US having 2 right side parties and basically no left?
Uh...this has been the case for over a century now?
Election season is starting to take off. Cnn has more coverage about all sorts of election items now (for example vote by mail).
They went from covering the protest 24/7 to going back to covering the epidemic and bashing trumps response for the past 2-3 weeks (protests are not covered at all anymore,it went from 24/7 to basicly zero in just a few days) and now they start mixing in items about the election as well.
Trump is also preparing,realising he can not win with his rather unique vision on the epidemic so he now conforms with the mainstream opinion about masks and such.
Trumps best change is china,the only thing that can unite america is an outside enemy so i expect the conflict with china will slowly keep escelating towards the election (without actually going to breaking point).
Another thing that worries me is a 2nd term for trump. His first term didnt worry me but a 2nd one definitly would.
First term presidents are a bit cautious,they have to get re-elected with their party. 2nd term there is nothing to lose.
The above chart is very interesting but it looks kinda weird. Is it truly accurate?
The electorate as a whole seems to be lower then 0 on the economic dimension on average while equall/slightly above 0 on average in the social dimension? The top right is also empty while the bottom left is filled.
I thought it would be the other way,americans on average beeing conservative in the economic dimension while beeing somewhat more liberal in the social dimension (for example the recent protests,which did focus on the social dimension and not so much on the ecomomic dimension). Trump i think is very much a 1 on the economic dimension while beeing more towards the middle on the social dimension. Maybe its a matter of scaling i dont know.
I am curious what subjects it considers to be social dimension and what subjects it considers economic dimension and how they have measured the social and economic dimension. Healthcare for example,is beeing in favor of universal healthcare measured on the social dimension or on the economic dimension?
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On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump.
If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times.
If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time.
On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics.
The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too.
But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics.
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On July 25 2020 10:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 10:16 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 10:09 JimmiC wrote:On July 25 2020 08:55 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 04:16 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 25 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 02:59 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 25 2020 01:53 Danglars wrote:On July 25 2020 01:29 NewSunshine wrote:On July 25 2020 01:06 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
If everyone already agreed, you’d hear just a post. If Obama was defended because right-wing protesters are just so extra bad, and they’re literally a threat to democracy, and it’s different in this case because you can’t mess around with the far right, and that rubbish, then you’d hear a lot more.
Performative outrage on stuff everyone agrees is an outrage is for theatre majors. Or like “become a Democrat now or you don’t believe it” hilarity. Oh, I definitely believe that you're an expert when it comes to performative outrage. How about, instead of trying to deflect from the thread again, you take one of the many invitations you've gotten in the last day to step back, and seriously look at the things you're supporting when you try to argue people down. People aren't asking for a lot, mostly just one honest moment of reflection from one of this threads most frequent posters. I've spent my years in this thread challenging a lot of things I believe, and confronting a number of uncomfortable truths that lie at their hearts. I've taken many, many opportunities to step back, and just think about what I believe, and if I can live with myself continuing to believe that. And I continue to. How about you? You envisioned the response from the right wing in a hypothetical, so I’d refrain from doing that sort of thing if actual right-ring responses are deflection. Secondarily, I’d like to refer back to People aren't asking for a lot, mostly just one honest moment of reflection from one of this threads most frequent posters when you don’t get the response you want. Don’t ask questions where you’ll only accept one answer as being genuine. Can you imagine the left if CHAZ was a alt right proud boys protest, and people were shot and raped without police allowed in! Haha left wingers don’t respond, we all know you’d display so much more performative outrage if that had been the case This thread is a consistent challenge to what I believe, and I miss the posters in years past, since been banned or stopped posting, that no longer add their voices. EVEN if that involves re-evaluating why people think as they do. Any honest person should ask themselves if they’re open to being persuaded that Trump is the best choice in the 2020 election to better understand their limits of altering their own opinions. So, if I understand you correctly, your point seems to be this. You are against the abducting of citizens because it's unconstitutional. You are also against the platform of Biden. As you are more against the platform of Biden than against the abuse of power of trump, you have no problem with voting for trump and the Republican party not rebelling against him. Is that correct? I am against federal officers using rental vans and camo outfits detaining civilians. Biden’s platform, in both things he’s for/against, and things going unmentioned in his platform, would be far more destructive to this country than is understood here. It includes abuses of power in terms of sending nuns helping the elderly back to court, and forcing religious organizations to obey the whims of the federal government contrary to their first amendment rights. The Biden advisors and campaign appointments add to my stance on this. Knowing that Trump has done a poor job on things like the coronavirus, foreign policy and domestic policy messaging and explanation, and singling out individuals to blast on twitter means it is absolutely false to put it as “have no problem.” It’s been a best of the worst voting test for me for five-ish presidential elections straight, so I’d like to see some acknowledgement of that truth, because your framing is damaging to the discourse. Binary choices are the absolute worst way to hear someone’s political beliefs. Quote and respond to Drone’s post if you really need me to explain that point. Fair enough, thanks for the answer. My problem with this is that you do very little to actually inform your political party, or at least other voters of your party, of that position. You allow the Maga crowd to speak for you because you are not trying to change the platform of your party and accept the worst possible candidate for your side to become the candidate for your choice in the first place. If the conservatives with a disdain for trump had rebelled 2 years ago, you might have had a better choice now. I mean you might as well say that Dems let Obama speak for you, the ability of the president of a party to really monopolize the messaging. But for the full discussion of MAGA crowd, presidential primary politics of the Republican Party, and the GOP from Tea Party to today, it would take more Republicans around here to chime in. xDaunt is dearly missed, but with him and Clutz, oBlade, DeepElemBlues, FabledInt, and Introvert + Sermokala, we could probably pull it out. I can't really flesh out why 1) "allow" the Maga crowd to speak for you 2) worst possible candidate for your side 3) if conservatives had rebelled 2 years ago are very politically out of touch. The topic has moved on, and I still love how people express regrets for supporting Biden, but are still so stubborn about people regretfully voting Trump. On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Manchin's one of the only current members of the Democratic party I would vote for ahead of Trump. Kyrsten Sinema is close, because she is willing to buck her party on a diverse range of topics. To previous quote, left wing version of Trump is AOC, because you gotta be as passionate as you are fact-free to even come close. It clearly the Bloomer. Both are old New York billionaires. Both bow down to dictators. Both swapped parties not because they agreed with any of the ideals but because they thought they could win. Both have awful hair. Both spent a fortune on advertising. It is uncanny. Bloomberg is far more level-headed and cautious than Trump. Impossible. Bloomberg made debates boring, and you had to hope that somebody would shove a rhetorical spear into his body to get some life. Trump, love him or hate him, never has a dull moment. Bloomberg hosting a reality TV show is a disaster. Trump is a hit. Bad choice. I dunno him talking about steep a ramp was and how tired his arm was from shaking hands was so tired it took two to control that glass of water, all I felt was sadness.
It's absolutely astonishing how much Trump toadies will continue to insist this man is any way competent. It's just a complete circus at this point. "PERSON MAN WOMAN CAMERA TV", get out.
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On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics.
You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass.
I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out).
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On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out).
Here it is:
Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com
I don't think Biden is on the right of the party these days really. The nomination had a lot of progressive candidates that probably somewhat over represented the left - which is also much more ubiquitous than the right of the party these days. But Biden is not Bill Clinton and there is no reason to believe he would do much differently than Obama.
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On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Show nested quote +Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com
A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo.
Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though.
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On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though.
Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life.
It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands.
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lol I've seen the political compass website evaluating the politics of election candidates and it is really, really bad. Saying Hilary Clinton is more conservative economically than Trump and that Gabbard is more left wing than Sanders is flat out delusional. Makes me think whoever came up with this is like almost tankie-level left wing.
Edit: The amount of people that have bought into the hype of Tulsi Gabbard being a very progressive candidate is pretty surprising to me. Her voting record is pretty moderate for a Democrat so I wonder how it has not become widespread knowledge that she is sorely lacking in left wing bona fides.
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On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands.
It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass)
Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically.
Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts.
Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans.
Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step.
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On July 25 2020 20:30 Anc13nt wrote:
lol I've seen the political compass website evaluating the politics of election candidates and it is really, really bad. Saying Hilary Clinton is more conservative economically than Trump and that Gabbard is more left wing than Sanders is flat out delusional. Makes me think whoever came up with this is like almost tankie-level left wing.
Edit: The amount of people that have bought into the hype of Tulsi Gabbard being a very progressive candidate is pretty surprising to me. Her voting record is pretty moderate for a Democrat so I wonder how it has not become widespread knowledge that she is sorely lacking in left wing bona fides.
2016 primary Trump was more economically liberal than 2016 Clinton though if you take what they say at face value. That's probably the biggest pitfall of the political compass (I didn't spot a methodology though). I have to assume it's not very comprehensive either or didn't properly weight Gabbard's support for Modi.
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It'll be interesting to see how many things "stay the way they are because of Republicans" under Biden (I think he'll win). The trading names of bases for 800 billion military dollars "victory" earlier I see becoming the standard.
EDIT: Just for the record my two favorite democrats, Bernie and Warren voted against this. Yay for "electable" candidates, huh?
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On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step.
What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed.
Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course.
Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security.
In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden.
Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously.
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On July 25 2020 20:30 Anc13nt wrote:
lol I've seen the political compass website evaluating the politics of election candidates and it is really, really bad. Saying Hilary Clinton is more conservative economically than Trump and that Gabbard is more left wing than Sanders is flat out delusional. Makes me think whoever came up with this is like almost tankie-level left wing.
Edit: The amount of people that have bought into the hype of Tulsi Gabbard being a very progressive candidate is pretty surprising to me. Her voting record is pretty moderate for a Democrat so I wonder how it has not become widespread knowledge that she is sorely lacking in left wing bona fides.
The political compass is a joke to start with, and a complete fraud when applied to people who don't answer directly. You can make it say exactly what you want. In my experience 99% of the time it's used it's by Progressives to say against all evidence that X liberal politician is more right wing than Voldemort.
For the record I score -8,5 -8,5 and I consider myself a left wing moderate.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3HrbzeC.jpg)
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