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On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously.
Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale.
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On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:[quote] Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale.
You mean on voting record? When?
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On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump.
If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When?
According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs.
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On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 16:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:[quote] If it's amongst congressmen - the only people we have hard, quantifiable data as to their relative political position - as I said, during his career, between 45 and 55% of the other democratic congressmen, at all times. If it's amongst candidates in 2020, well, Klobuchar and Buttigieg of course. Amongst Vice Presidents, the question makes no sense since there is only one at a time. + Show Spoiler +On July 25 2020 12:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 11:56 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 11:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 09:00 Nevuk wrote:On July 25 2020 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 07:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 06:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 06:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Up to now Biden is running a quite leftist platform. His image of centrist is actually inaccurate, 538 analysis shows that he has always been almost exactly at the centre of the democratic party, not of american politics in general. That made him quite a centrist in the Clinton years, and more to the left these days.
As to say that Biden is a left wing equivalent of Trump, it doesn't seem grounded in any facts whatsoever. He is as different of Trump as it gets. Who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Manchin is the only one that comes to mind and he was considering voting for Trump. Amongst whom? + Show Spoiler +538 analysis shows that in 35 years as a senator, Biden has always been more liberal that 45% of the democratic senators and more conservative that another 45%. That's based on his voting record. What is remarkable is that when the party has moved, he has moved with it. Consistently.
The democratic party is more on the left than it has been in decades and, unsurprisingly, Biden's platform is quite far on the left.
Let it be clear: in a way, I don't think it's a very positive trait. I like my politicians to have their own ideology and opinion. But in the present circumstances, when the Democratic party so badly needs to be united, this "centre-democrat" position is probably a very good thing. Also, it looks like we can expect a reasonably left wing governance if the party keeps its strong progressive wing and doesn't lose itself in retarded infighting. I was asking who is on Biden's right in the Democratic party? Among the presidential candidates I can only consider the literal former Republican to his right, among Senators, the guy who was talking about maybe voting for Trump. Klobuchar and Buttigieg. Kamala on criminal justice (weirdly). Curious what you're basing that on? Political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020According to it, Biden is less authoritarian but more capitalism friendly than Klobuchar, Harris, Delaney, Hickenlooper. Not as capitalism friendly as Inslee, about equal with Yang. Buttigieg, Bennet, Castro, Bloomberg were all further right in every way. They do note that it was hard to pin down Biden's policy proposals during the primary : I think he would probably be a bit further left economically now (this was from February). I believe this is a ranking by far leftists based on the language they use. Upper right quadrant is liberal capitalism with a central government. As far as not being as far right as Harris on criminal justice, it is mainly because she fought really hard that she hadn't made mistakes as AG, and she made a lot of pro law enforcement moves then. That's a truly bizarre scale, I can't even imagine how they arrived at some of that. Kasich and Trump are basically the same politically according to that but one is the worst ever and the other is speaking at the Democratic convention. I guess it supports my impression that Democrats' problem with Trump is much more his attitude than his politics. The fact that he is destroying or trying to destroy literally everything they have accomplished in 8 years in every single area, going from environmental regulations to healthcare to international relations and so on, miiiiiight be a factor too. But you are onto something: the political compass is an absolute joke and tells exactly nothing about someone's politics. You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass. I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs.
When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time.
Can you provide a link?
That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign.
I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning.
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Canada11372 Posts
On July 25 2020 21:43 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2020 20:30 Anc13nt wrote:
lol I've seen the political compass website evaluating the politics of election candidates and it is really, really bad. Saying Hilary Clinton is more conservative economically than Trump and that Gabbard is more left wing than Sanders is flat out delusional. Makes me think whoever came up with this is like almost tankie-level left wing.
Edit: The amount of people that have bought into the hype of Tulsi Gabbard being a very progressive candidate is pretty surprising to me. Her voting record is pretty moderate for a Democrat so I wonder how it has not become widespread knowledge that she is sorely lacking in left wing bona fides. The political compass is a joke to start with, and a complete fraud when applied to people who don't answer directly. You can make it say exactly what you want. In my experience 99% of the time it's used it's by Progressives to say against all evidence that X liberal politician is more right wing than Voldemort. For the record I score -8,5 -8,5 and I consider myself a left wing moderate.
I've never understood their scaling system- in the past, I've seen historical figures place on there and our former prime minister was always one degree off from Hitler. And it's like, Stephen Harper was many things, but one degree from Hitler? Nah. This scale isn't sufficiently varied to include totalitarian states, not even if each mark was orders of magnitude.
But I am VERY doubtful of where everyone got placed. I always end up -1, -1 (Dirty Centrist) and I know the sorts of answers I give. Except for maybe on healthcare, all those Democrat candidates have got to be at left of me and not too much authoritarian as me, if not considerably less. Like Sanders -1, -1 (same as me) and except for his electoral reform (which I consider a bipartisan issue) I am definitely very far right of him.
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Political compass is mainly useful because very few groups reliably measure things like that, as it is really hard and controversial ( and US centric or partisan). View it as a list made by GH types but further left and you'll get a better idea of the slant when making it (iirc I come in at -9/-9.5).
DW nominate is the most accurate but only includes actual votes iirc, which is problematic for people running for a higher office - what they vote on depends entirely on what is presented. They can govern much further to the left or right without changing their views at all, tell you they will do it, and DW won't consider it. It is also a smaller, narrower grouping than PC (it is us centric)
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On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 17:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 17:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
You can link it so I can know what you're talking about, but I'm skeptical it's really any more helpful than the political compass.
I'm curious why you say Amy and Pete but it would seem you'd at least concede he's not firmly in the middle of the party anymore, but on it's right edge (even if you put those two a bit further out). Here it is: Serving in the Senate from 1973-2009, Biden was always more liberal than at least 44 percent of his Democratic colleagues but always less liberal than at least 43 percent of his colleagues, according to DW-Nominate scores of his Senate votes. fivethirtyeight.com A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning.
That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com
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Here is a helpful diagram showing the area of Portland impacted by the current protests:
https://imgur.com/a/haWOhN5#iKViUgu
Portland is totally fine. We are not suffering. Some people are protesting, but it is life as usual right now.
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On July 26 2020 04:16 Mohdoo wrote:Here is a helpful diagram showing the area of Portland impacted by the current protests: https://imgur.com/a/haWOhN5#iKViUguPortland is totally fine. We are not suffering. Some people are protesting, but it is life as usual right now.
Yup, this is true. I live a few blocks right from here.
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On July 26 2020 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo. Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning. That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com
yes but the metric that matters and that this article is all about is the voting record. My point is that it's the only criteria to reliably assess a politician position. Their is so much tactics and posturing in a campaign that evaluating where a candidate stands out of his platform makes very little sense.
So as I said. Biden primary campaign was a bit more right wing than he is because he was campaigning against several strong left wing candidates. That doesn't make him the right wing of the Democratic party, as proven by his voting record, over his whole career.
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On July 26 2020 05:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
A vague DW-NOMINATE score ranking range over decades (that's more than a decade out of date) among Democrats isn't very informative in this regard imo.
Hillary was a LOT more liberal than Biden by this metric, but not as liberal as Harris who ranks in the 97th percentile (and along with Booker is more economically liberal than Bernie Sanders by this metric). Tim Kaine is more conservative than Klobuchar though. Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life. It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning. That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com yes but the metric that matters and that this article is all about is the voting record. My point is that it's the only criteria to reliably assess a politician position. Their is so much tactics and posturing in a campaign that evaluating where a candidate stands out of his platform makes very little sense. So as I said. Biden primary campaign was a bit more right wing than he is because he was campaigning against several strong left wing candidates. That doesn't make him the right wing of the Democratic party, as proven by his voting record, over his whole career.
By the metric you say matters Biden is to the right of Obama and even further than that to the right of Clinton (less than half as economically far left as Kamala Harris, who is left of Bernie Sanders by this metric). Using that metric you insist that Biden will govern to the left of Obama.
He's obviously on the right half of the party now like he was when there were still active segregationists in the party.
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On July 26 2020 08:16 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 05:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 20:06 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Well that's where the statistics is really interesting: it's not an average over decades, it's an average at different points across decades, that shows him consistently at the centre of the party. So when the party was further right, like in the Clinton years, Biden was further right, when it was further left, Biden was further left. The party is at it furthest on the left it's been in decades and there is no reason to doubt Biden is moving with it. That's what he has done all his life.
It's not a vague score ranking. It's the only reliable measure of where a politician truly stands. It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass) Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically. Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts. Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans. Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning. That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com yes but the metric that matters and that this article is all about is the voting record. My point is that it's the only criteria to reliably assess a politician position. Their is so much tactics and posturing in a campaign that evaluating where a candidate stands out of his platform makes very little sense. So as I said. Biden primary campaign was a bit more right wing than he is because he was campaigning against several strong left wing candidates. That doesn't make him the right wing of the Democratic party, as proven by his voting record, over his whole career. By the metric you say matters Biden is to the right of Obama and even further than that to the right of Clinton (less than half as economically far left as Kamala Harris, who is left of Bernie Sanders by this metric). Using that metric you insist that Biden will govern to the left of Obama. He's obviously on the right half of the party now like he was when there were still active segregationists in the party.
I don't think you've read or understood what I have written, no.
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On July 26 2020 08:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 08:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 05:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 20:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
It's a range over decades. Going back to the 70's when the party as a whole was furthest left by this metric and Biden was among his most conservative relative to them (this was when he was cordial with segregationists). What it tells me is that both Biden and the party have been increasingly conservative economically (more liberal socially) and Biden has no ideological grounding beyond centrism amid a bipartisan rightward economic movement. (this matches up with the political compass)
Though we have to show some skepticism of a measurement that puts Harris and Booker to Sanders' left economically.
Most people would agree Obama governed more authoritarian and to the right economically than he campaigned as the compass suggested, I don't know anyone that genuinely thinks Booker is to the left of Sanders economically as the DW-Nominate score asserts.
Between the two I think it's far more likely that Biden follows Obama and governs further right and more authoritarian according to the compass metrics than he campaigned and Democrats will happily blame his failures to enact progressive policy (that he didn't even advocate for in a Dem primary) and any war crimes he does campaign on and follow through with on Republicans.
Considering how he campaigned against a lot of the reforms that the majority of the party supports and for things like increased military interventions, I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt he'll move left with the party. I'm not confident he's more than a placeholder/figurehead anyway though. A guy who lived through the Nixon administration thinks Trump is the first racist president, so he's either terribly oblivious or losing a step. What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed. Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course. Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security. In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden. Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning. That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com yes but the metric that matters and that this article is all about is the voting record. My point is that it's the only criteria to reliably assess a politician position. Their is so much tactics and posturing in a campaign that evaluating where a candidate stands out of his platform makes very little sense. So as I said. Biden primary campaign was a bit more right wing than he is because he was campaigning against several strong left wing candidates. That doesn't make him the right wing of the Democratic party, as proven by his voting record, over his whole career. By the metric you say matters Biden is to the right of Obama and even further than that to the right of Clinton (less than half as economically far left as Kamala Harris, who is left of Bernie Sanders by this metric). Using that metric you insist that Biden will govern to the left of Obama. He's obviously on the right half of the party now like he was when there were still active segregationists in the party. I don't think you've read or understood what I have written, no.
I don't think you understand what DW-nominate scores (you or someone else here could definitely grasp the actual mathematical calculations better than myself were you to be aware of them) represent as evidenced by your question:
You mean on voting record? When?
I'm under the impression you parroted (I agree with Jock here) the 538 article without understanding the data they were using and have been trying to deny the reality that by the metric you presented Biden is unquestionably the furthest right between Hillary and Obama. Using that information you are asserting that Biden will govern to the left of Obama because of an unsupported assertion about the party's move to the left.
The same metric you cited shows that isn't what happened.
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On July 26 2020 09:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 08:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 08:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 05:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 25 2020 21:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:
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What I am saying is that in 35 years, Biden has never been, at any point either at the right nor the left of his party. There is no reason to think that changed.
Obama campaigned "on the left" and recentered, because his opponent was Hillary Clinton who was at his right. Biden campaign more "on the right" and recentered (his campaign has moved left since the primaries are over) because his opponent was Sanders who is at his left. Note that I'm talking left, right of center of the democratic party, of course.
Altogether, I think Biden will govern further left than Obama, because the party has since moved left and has a stronger progressive component, and because Covid has changed the reality and the public opinion dramatically to the left on many issues - starting with social security.
In my opinion Obama pushed the US in the right direction (that is to say, to the left), and I expect the same for Biden.
Sorry but meanwhile any talks comparing either of them with Trump on policies are extremely hard to take seriously. Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning. That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com yes but the metric that matters and that this article is all about is the voting record. My point is that it's the only criteria to reliably assess a politician position. Their is so much tactics and posturing in a campaign that evaluating where a candidate stands out of his platform makes very little sense. So as I said. Biden primary campaign was a bit more right wing than he is because he was campaigning against several strong left wing candidates. That doesn't make him the right wing of the Democratic party, as proven by his voting record, over his whole career. By the metric you say matters Biden is to the right of Obama and even further than that to the right of Clinton (less than half as economically far left as Kamala Harris, who is left of Bernie Sanders by this metric). Using that metric you insist that Biden will govern to the left of Obama. He's obviously on the right half of the party now like he was when there were still active segregationists in the party. I don't think you've read or understood what I have written, no. I don't think you understand what DW-nominate scores (you or someone else here could definitely grasp the actual mathematical calculations better than myself were you to be aware of them) represent as evidenced by your question: I'm under the impression you parroted (I agree with Jock here) the 538 article without understanding the data they were using and have been trying to deny the reality that by the metric you presented Biden is unquestionably the furthest right between Hillary and Obama. Using that information you are asserting that Biden will govern to the left of Obama because of an unsupported assertion about the party's move to the left. The same metric you cited shows that isn't what happened.
All I am saying is that according to that article, by voting record as a congressman, Biden has always been at the centre of his party, period.
I don't even know what we are arguing about at that point.
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On July 26 2020 17:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 09:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 08:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 08:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 05:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 25 2020 22:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Hillary has a score slightly to the left of Obama and Biden's is further to Obama's right on this scale. You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning. That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com yes but the metric that matters and that this article is all about is the voting record. My point is that it's the only criteria to reliably assess a politician position. Their is so much tactics and posturing in a campaign that evaluating where a candidate stands out of his platform makes very little sense. So as I said. Biden primary campaign was a bit more right wing than he is because he was campaigning against several strong left wing candidates. That doesn't make him the right wing of the Democratic party, as proven by his voting record, over his whole career. By the metric you say matters Biden is to the right of Obama and even further than that to the right of Clinton (less than half as economically far left as Kamala Harris, who is left of Bernie Sanders by this metric). Using that metric you insist that Biden will govern to the left of Obama. He's obviously on the right half of the party now like he was when there were still active segregationists in the party. I don't think you've read or understood what I have written, no. I don't think you understand what DW-nominate scores (you or someone else here could definitely grasp the actual mathematical calculations better than myself were you to be aware of them) represent as evidenced by your question: You mean on voting record? When? I'm under the impression you parroted (I agree with Jock here) the 538 article without understanding the data they were using and have been trying to deny the reality that by the metric you presented Biden is unquestionably the furthest right between Hillary and Obama. Using that information you are asserting that Biden will govern to the left of Obama because of an unsupported assertion about the party's move to the left. The same metric you cited shows that isn't what happened. All I am saying is that according to that article, by voting record as a congressman, Biden has always been at the centre of his party, period. I don't even know what we are arguing about at that point.
What "Biden has always been at the centre of his party" tells us about how he will govern. You used it to support your position that Biden would govern to the left of Obama and I was pointing out how the data cited in the article didn't support that.
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On July 26 2020 04:16 Mohdoo wrote:Here is a helpful diagram showing the area of Portland impacted by the current protests: https://imgur.com/a/haWOhN5#iKViUguPortland is totally fine. We are not suffering. Some people are protesting, but it is life as usual right now.
I've had to repeatedly tell this to my Republican friend about Los Angeles also.
According to the media he consumes, Portland, Los Angeles and Seattle are in such chaos that it justifies Trump's goon squads coming in.
Psh. We've had worse riots when the Lakers win.
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On July 26 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 17:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 09:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 08:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 08:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 05:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
You mean on voting record? When? According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning. That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com yes but the metric that matters and that this article is all about is the voting record. My point is that it's the only criteria to reliably assess a politician position. Their is so much tactics and posturing in a campaign that evaluating where a candidate stands out of his platform makes very little sense. So as I said. Biden primary campaign was a bit more right wing than he is because he was campaigning against several strong left wing candidates. That doesn't make him the right wing of the Democratic party, as proven by his voting record, over his whole career. By the metric you say matters Biden is to the right of Obama and even further than that to the right of Clinton (less than half as economically far left as Kamala Harris, who is left of Bernie Sanders by this metric). Using that metric you insist that Biden will govern to the left of Obama. He's obviously on the right half of the party now like he was when there were still active segregationists in the party. I don't think you've read or understood what I have written, no. I don't think you understand what DW-nominate scores (you or someone else here could definitely grasp the actual mathematical calculations better than myself were you to be aware of them) represent as evidenced by your question: You mean on voting record? When? I'm under the impression you parroted (I agree with Jock here) the 538 article without understanding the data they were using and have been trying to deny the reality that by the metric you presented Biden is unquestionably the furthest right between Hillary and Obama. Using that information you are asserting that Biden will govern to the left of Obama because of an unsupported assertion about the party's move to the left. The same metric you cited shows that isn't what happened. All I am saying is that according to that article, by voting record as a congressman, Biden has always been at the centre of his party, period. I don't even know what we are arguing about at that point. What "Biden has always been at the centre of his party" tells us about how he will govern. You used it to support your position that Biden would govern to the left of Obama and I was pointing out how the data cited in the article didn't support that.
My line of reasoning is that the party has moved to the left quite dramatically since Obama was in office, and that Covid also completely shifted public opinion. If Biden holds his position of always being the middle man in the democratic spectrum, he could very well end up governing left of Obama.
The whole point of the article is that Biden doesn't have a fixed position. He is a very mobile politician ideologically, and the parameters that seem to have moved him in his career would all tend to suggest that he is going to be further left than he has ever been (considering the party is on its furthest on the left now).
That's maybe optimistic and maybe his moving with the centre of gravity of the Democratic party will end once in office, but it's a plausible narrative.
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On July 26 2020 22:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2020 20:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 17:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 09:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 08:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 08:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 05:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2020 00:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 26 2020 00:27 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
According to the same DW-Nominate scores of his votes you cited and theirs. When? You would really have to compare them at the same period considering how much party lines move over time. Can you provide a link? That's mildly surprising (in the case of Obama relative to Clinton, that is), but doesn't really change the fact that Obama ran a campaign left of Clinton in the 2008 primaries, and that Biden ran a primary campaign right of his general election campaign. I don't see how any of it contradict my line of reasoning. That's not how DW-Nominate scores work. The link is in the 538 article you linked. voteview.com yes but the metric that matters and that this article is all about is the voting record. My point is that it's the only criteria to reliably assess a politician position. Their is so much tactics and posturing in a campaign that evaluating where a candidate stands out of his platform makes very little sense. So as I said. Biden primary campaign was a bit more right wing than he is because he was campaigning against several strong left wing candidates. That doesn't make him the right wing of the Democratic party, as proven by his voting record, over his whole career. By the metric you say matters Biden is to the right of Obama and even further than that to the right of Clinton (less than half as economically far left as Kamala Harris, who is left of Bernie Sanders by this metric). Using that metric you insist that Biden will govern to the left of Obama. He's obviously on the right half of the party now like he was when there were still active segregationists in the party. I don't think you've read or understood what I have written, no. I don't think you understand what DW-nominate scores (you or someone else here could definitely grasp the actual mathematical calculations better than myself were you to be aware of them) represent as evidenced by your question: You mean on voting record? When? I'm under the impression you parroted (I agree with Jock here) the 538 article without understanding the data they were using and have been trying to deny the reality that by the metric you presented Biden is unquestionably the furthest right between Hillary and Obama. Using that information you are asserting that Biden will govern to the left of Obama because of an unsupported assertion about the party's move to the left. The same metric you cited shows that isn't what happened. All I am saying is that according to that article, by voting record as a congressman, Biden has always been at the centre of his party, period. I don't even know what we are arguing about at that point. What "Biden has always been at the centre of his party" tells us about how he will govern. You used it to support your position that Biden would govern to the left of Obama and I was pointing out how the data cited in the article didn't support that. My line of reasoning is that the party has moved to the left quite dramatically since Obama was in office, and that Covid also completely shifted public opinion. If Biden holds his position of always being the middle man in the democratic spectrum, he could very well end up governing left of Obama. The whole point of the article is that Biden doesn't have a fixed position. He is a very mobile politician ideologically, and the parameters that seem to have moved him in his career would all tend to suggest that he is going to be further left than he has ever been (considering the party is on its furthest on the left now). That's maybe optimistic and maybe his moving with the centre of gravity of the Democratic party will end once in office, but it's a plausible narrative.
Your argument that the party has moved left isn't supported by the DW-Nominate data you cited. It also inexplicably has Kamala Harris and Corey Booker on the far economic left (well left of Bernie Sanders).
What do you think the DW-Nominate score is measuring? That might help me understand the confusion. Aren't you confused that no one's individual score (-.0279 for Klobuchar, -0.314 for Biden, -0.527 for Bernie, -0.704 for Harris) changes between when they enter congress and when they leave?
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Here you go:
The Democratic Party is more liberal now than it was when Bill Clinton took office, or even when Obama was inaugurated, and Biden’s platform reflects that shift. Some of Biden’s 2020 policy proposals are notably to the left of the Obama administration’s stances when it left office in early 2017, including Biden’s support for the abolition of the death penalty, halting nearly all deportations of undocumented immigrants in his first 100 days as president and free four-year college for Americans in households with incomes up to $125,000 a year.
The Democratic Party’s center is moving left
It’s hard to measure the precise center of American politics and how it has changed over the last few months. But it’s certainly moved left in response to the COVID-19 crisis — toward way more federal spending. Sen. Mitt Romney, a Republican, recently proposed using federal dollars to temporarily boost the pay of grocery store clerks and others in “essential” jobs by $12 per hour. Republicans in Congress supported a $2 trillion economic stimulus provision, which gave many Americans a one-time payment of $1,200 and boosted unemployment benefits by $600 per week. More moderate House Democrats, usually wary of being cast as too liberal, backed the $2 trillion bill and a subsequent $3 trillion economic stimulus bill .
Mirroring the shift in his party, Biden and his advisers are now reimagining his candidacy and presidency — rolling out more liberal policy plans, speaking in increasingly populist terms and joining forces with the most progressive voices in the party. Biden himself has invoked the idea that he might be entering the Oval Office facing a crisis on the scale of the Great Depression.
fivethirtyeight.com
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On July 27 2020 00:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:Here you go: + Show Spoiler +The Democratic Party is more liberal now than it was when Bill Clinton took office, or even when Obama was inaugurated, and Biden’s platform reflects that shift. Some of Biden’s 2020 policy proposals are notably to the left of the Obama administration’s stances when it left office in early 2017, including Biden’s support for the abolition of the death penalty, halting nearly all deportations of undocumented immigrants in his first 100 days as president and free four-year college for Americans in households with incomes up to $125,000 a year.
The Democratic Party’s center is moving left
It’s hard to measure the precise center of American politics and how it has changed over the last few months. But it’s certainly moved left in response to the COVID-19 crisis — toward way more federal spending. Sen. Mitt Romney, a Republican, recently proposed using federal dollars to temporarily boost the pay of grocery store clerks and others in “essential” jobs by $12 per hour. Republicans in Congress supported a $2 trillion economic stimulus provision, which gave many Americans a one-time payment of $1,200 and boosted unemployment benefits by $600 per week. More moderate House Democrats, usually wary of being cast as too liberal, backed the $2 trillion bill and a subsequent $3 trillion economic stimulus bill .
Mirroring the shift in his party, Biden and his advisers are now reimagining his candidacy and presidency — rolling out more liberal policy plans, speaking in increasingly populist terms and joining forces with the most progressive voices in the party. Biden himself has invoked the idea that he might be entering the Oval Office facing a crisis on the scale of the Great Depression. fivethirtyeight.com
I don't know what 'here you go" means?
Just to be clear, DW-Nominate scores are like ideological coordinates based on an algorithm that computes (nearly) all of their votes and spits out a number between -1 and 1 to place them on an ideological scale sorta like the compass grid.
It seemed the article that started this misled folks to believe that by seeing how Biden's number compared to other members as they came and went they could extract that this information supported that he was moving with the party to stay in the center, and that's just not how the score works.
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EPT
