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On July 27 2020 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 27 2020 09:58 Vindicare605 wrote:
But I'm not writing in Bernie, because that's silly imo, he wants his supporters to vote Biden and they should if they follow Bernie rather than have a leftist ideology independent of Bernie Sanders. Bernie doesn't want your friends vote, he wants him to rally around the establishment they both know is corrupt.
I've already told him that. We've gone back and forth on it already. I'm not assuming anything about you with my statement. I asked you if you knew that you were wasting your vote and you said you did. That's enough. I don't need to try and convince you about why that's such a bad thing with the stakes of this particular election, that's wasted energy. If you know what you're doing and are gonna do it anyway, you're a free American to do whatever you want. I'm free to judge you for it too. You act as if I have an alternative to "wasting" my vote? What the hell would I gain by voting Biden besides shared culpability for his corruption and incompetence with the people who felt they had no choice but become co-conspirators with his corruption (albeit at the most petty level) or just follow Bernie like a lost puppy? You share a part in defeating Trump. As bad as Biden is, he's better than Trump. It's picking the lesser of two evils I know, I get it, but you must agree that 4 years of Biden is DEFINITELY better than 4 more of Trump with a Republican controlled Senate. You must!
That's a non sequitur?
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On July 27 2020 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 27 2020 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 27 2020 09:58 Vindicare605 wrote:
But I'm not writing in Bernie, because that's silly imo, he wants his supporters to vote Biden and they should if they follow Bernie rather than have a leftist ideology independent of Bernie Sanders. Bernie doesn't want your friends vote, he wants him to rally around the establishment they both know is corrupt.
I've already told him that. We've gone back and forth on it already. I'm not assuming anything about you with my statement. I asked you if you knew that you were wasting your vote and you said you did. That's enough. I don't need to try and convince you about why that's such a bad thing with the stakes of this particular election, that's wasted energy. If you know what you're doing and are gonna do it anyway, you're a free American to do whatever you want. I'm free to judge you for it too. You act as if I have an alternative to "wasting" my vote? What the hell would I gain by voting Biden besides shared culpability for his corruption and incompetence with the people who felt they had no choice but become co-conspirators with his corruption (albeit at the most petty level) or just follow Bernie like a lost puppy? You share a part in defeating Trump. As bad as Biden is, he's better than Trump. It's picking the lesser of two evils I know, I get it, but you must agree that 4 years of Biden is DEFINITELY better than 4 more of Trump with a Republican controlled Senate. You must! That's a non sequitur?
No it's not.
I already told you, you can do whatever you want, but I'm free to judge you if you make a decision I don't like. I have a good reason for doing so.
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On July 27 2020 10:11 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 10:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 27 2020 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 27 2020 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 27 2020 09:58 Vindicare605 wrote:
But I'm not writing in Bernie, because that's silly imo, he wants his supporters to vote Biden and they should if they follow Bernie rather than have a leftist ideology independent of Bernie Sanders. Bernie doesn't want your friends vote, he wants him to rally around the establishment they both know is corrupt.
I've already told him that. We've gone back and forth on it already. I'm not assuming anything about you with my statement. I asked you if you knew that you were wasting your vote and you said you did. That's enough. I don't need to try and convince you about why that's such a bad thing with the stakes of this particular election, that's wasted energy. If you know what you're doing and are gonna do it anyway, you're a free American to do whatever you want. I'm free to judge you for it too. You act as if I have an alternative to "wasting" my vote? What the hell would I gain by voting Biden besides shared culpability for his corruption and incompetence with the people who felt they had no choice but become co-conspirators with his corruption (albeit at the most petty level) or just follow Bernie like a lost puppy? You share a part in defeating Trump. As bad as Biden is, he's better than Trump. It's picking the lesser of two evils I know, I get it, but you must agree that 4 years of Biden is DEFINITELY better than 4 more of Trump with a Republican controlled Senate. You must! That's a non sequitur? No it's not. I already told you, you can do whatever you want, but I'm free to judge you if you make a decision I don't like. I have a good reason for doing so.
Your judgement is unreasonable as I've just demonstrated. You can't judge me for "wasting" my vote unless you can present a non-wasteful alternative. Voting for Biden is not just wasteful for me, it's sacrificing integrity for literally no gain. Voting for Biden would be worse than wasteful for me.
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Don't agree. It's more important to get Trump out of the white house than it is to vote for a candidate that both of us agree on.
Bernie said so. I agree.
Dislike our electoral process all you want. Doesn't change how we interact with it in 2020.
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On July 27 2020 10:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Don't agree. It's more important to get Trump out of the white house than it is to vote for a candidate that both of us agree on.
Bernie said so. I agree.
Dislike our electoral process all you want. Doesn't change how we interact with it in 2020.
I didn't vote for Clinton in 2016 or Obama in 2012 either, so this isn't new for me fwiw.
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Bernie will have made his political calculations as to how to vote and campaign after defeat; people who supported him will have to make theirs as well. It might not be as simple as "do as Bernie says."
Incidentally, having voted for Hillary in 2016, as distasteful as it was, looks also to have been a decision with questionable upside. Certainly to some extent if you live in a swing state, but far, far more so if, like GH, your vote is from within a safe state and is one more so of principle rather than one that could tip the scales in a close election. 2020 seems like a repeat, albeit with a candidate who still has a chance left to reach out to those more reluctant to support him. Let's see if he tries, or if he just does something as stupid as a Tim Kaine caliber VP choice.
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On July 27 2020 10:26 LegalLord wrote:
Bernie will have made his political calculations as to how to vote and campaign after defeat; people who supported him will have to make theirs as well. It might not be as simple as "do as Bernie says."
Incidentally, having voted for Hillary in 2016, as distasteful as it was, looks also to have been a decision with questionable upside. Certainly to some extent if you live in a swing state, but far, far more so if, like GH, your vote is from within a safe state and is one more so of principle rather than one that could tip the scales in a close election. 2020 seems like a repeat, albeit with a candidate who still has a chance left to reach out to those more reluctant to support him. Let's see if he tries, or if he just does something as stupid as a Tim Kaine caliber VP choice.
Trust me I agree with that. The Democrats are fucking RETARDED for making Joe Biden their candidate just like they were when they made Clinton theirs in 2016.
That doesn't change the truth. A shitty Democratic candidate is better than Trump. True then, True now.
What's also true is that you are wasting your vote in our elecotral system by voting for a third party candidate. It's been true for 200 years.
I don't make the rules. I just do my best to vote how I can that are closest to my ideals. If that means voting for someone I despise, just to help make sure someone I loathe is defeated? I'll make that choice every time.
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On July 27 2020 10:30 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 10:26 LegalLord wrote:
Bernie will have made his political calculations as to how to vote and campaign after defeat; people who supported him will have to make theirs as well. It might not be as simple as "do as Bernie says."
Incidentally, having voted for Hillary in 2016, as distasteful as it was, looks also to have been a decision with questionable upside. Certainly to some extent if you live in a swing state, but far, far more so if, like GH, your vote is from within a safe state and is one more so of principle rather than one that could tip the scales in a close election. 2020 seems like a repeat, albeit with a candidate who still has a chance left to reach out to those more reluctant to support him. Let's see if he tries, or if he just does something as stupid as a Tim Kaine caliber VP choice. Trust me I agree with that. The Democrats are fucking RETARDED...
could you not please?
If that is all you have to say. then I'm going to ignore it.
Personally not a fan of blatantly ableist language, particularly from people that claim to share ideals with me. It's certainly not indicative of fruitful ground on the horizon. A tragedy I'll bear grisly
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On July 27 2020 10:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 10:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 27 2020 10:26 LegalLord wrote:
Bernie will have made his political calculations as to how to vote and campaign after defeat; people who supported him will have to make theirs as well. It might not be as simple as "do as Bernie says."
Incidentally, having voted for Hillary in 2016, as distasteful as it was, looks also to have been a decision with questionable upside. Certainly to some extent if you live in a swing state, but far, far more so if, like GH, your vote is from within a safe state and is one more so of principle rather than one that could tip the scales in a close election. 2020 seems like a repeat, albeit with a candidate who still has a chance left to reach out to those more reluctant to support him. Let's see if he tries, or if he just does something as stupid as a Tim Kaine caliber VP choice. Trust me I agree with that. The Democrats are fucking RETARDED... could you not please?
If that is all you have to say. then I'm going to ignore it.
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On July 27 2020 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:You share a part in defeating Trump. As bad as Biden is, he's better than Trump. It's picking the lesser of two evils I know, I get it, but you must agree that 4 years of Biden is DEFINITELY better than 4 more of Trump with a Republican controlled Senate. You must!
Sweet, this means I shared a part in electing Trump in 2016. I live in California.
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On July 27 2020 10:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Don't agree. It's more important to get Trump out of the white house than it is to vote for a candidate that both of us agree on.
Bernie said so. I agree.
Dislike our electoral process all you want. Doesn't change how we interact with it in 2020.
How does GHs vote in an incredibly blue Washington contribute to getting Trump out of office though, his vote is actually literally meaningless since Washington will go Red when Alabama goes Blue.
He has a strong case for choosing integrity over... Nothing, him not voting Biden provides no Pro-Trump consequences.
EDIT: If anything the slimmest Joe Biden win is probably the best way for Trump to lose since it would help signal that people are tired of Centrist Fucksticks. Sadly he'll probably landslide and the DNC will continue to shove Centrist Fucksticks into the nomination while the country slides further down hill...
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Asking if GH votes Biden isn't very interesting. Ask if he will vote for the democratic candidate on the down ballot or his position on local ballot initiatives. His vote on those might actually matter, given his state.
It isn't totally pointless to vote for a candidate in a non-swing state. It has some minor messaging effects. Specifically, voting encourages politicians to pander more to your demographic and gives them political capital based on the size of their win - Trump came into office with no mandate due to how badly he lost the popular vote. Voting for Biden would send a message GH doesn't agree with - the only purpose of his vote is to run up the popular vote total for Biden and indicate that his demographic will support Biden.
The only exception is if the voter registration rolls being way down is only affecting Democrats in his state - there is no way the GOP can take WA otherwiee.
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On July 27 2020 10:30 Vindicare605 wrote:
If that means voting for someone I despise, just to help make sure someone I loathe is defeated? I'll make that choice every time.
Things like this are why oligarchs are able to maintain their vice grip on the country.
Some people don't believe in enabling.
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On July 27 2020 14:24 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 10:30 Vindicare605 wrote:
If that means voting for someone I despise, just to help make sure someone I loathe is defeated? I'll make that choice every time. Things like this are why oligarchs are able to maintain their vice grip on the country. Some people don't believe in enabling.
You vote for your absolute favorite in the primaries, and for the better option in the general election. If the progressive don't vote for liberals when liberals win the primary, and liberals don't vote for progressives when they win the primaries, you can be certain that neither liberals nor democrats are ever going to be elected.
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On July 27 2020 08:05 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 06:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 27 2020 02:01 Danglars wrote:On July 27 2020 00:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:Here you go: The Democratic Party is more liberal now than it was when Bill Clinton took office, or even when Obama was inaugurated, and Biden’s platform reflects that shift. Some of Biden’s 2020 policy proposals are notably to the left of the Obama administration’s stances when it left office in early 2017, including Biden’s support for the abolition of the death penalty, halting nearly all deportations of undocumented immigrants in his first 100 days as president and free four-year college for Americans in households with incomes up to $125,000 a year.
The Democratic Party’s center is moving left
It’s hard to measure the precise center of American politics and how it has changed over the last few months. But it’s certainly moved left in response to the COVID-19 crisis — toward way more federal spending. Sen. Mitt Romney, a Republican, recently proposed using federal dollars to temporarily boost the pay of grocery store clerks and others in “essential” jobs by $12 per hour. Republicans in Congress supported a $2 trillion economic stimulus provision, which gave many Americans a one-time payment of $1,200 and boosted unemployment benefits by $600 per week. More moderate House Democrats, usually wary of being cast as too liberal, backed the $2 trillion bill and a subsequent $3 trillion economic stimulus bill .
Mirroring the shift in his party, Biden and his advisers are now reimagining his candidacy and presidency — rolling out more liberal policy plans, speaking in increasingly populist terms and joining forces with the most progressive voices in the party. Biden himself has invoked the idea that he might be entering the Oval Office facing a crisis on the scale of the Great Depression. fivethirtyeight.com The Republican citations are weak. One of the arguments debt hawks have made for decades is to reduce the federal debt so more is available to spend in a crisis. A pandemic that's this communicable and happens something like once per century qualifies as a crisis. So the Romney and others are just continuing a mainstream GOP view that's been around for ages. Well it doesn't work like that. It's not like the federal government has money under a pillow so if it doesn't spend it now it has more in case of a crisis. Also, the GOP has never even tried to reduce the deficit when it was in power. It was always about tax cuts for the absolute richest. I need a bit more than "it doesn't work like that" and "it's not like the federal government has money under a pillow." But seeing as how nobody can separate "the arguments debt hawks make" from "they've never taken power and rarely done it," we're just chasing moving goalposts that started at some insane point about Republicans and spending in a crisis. The flight from that point is proof enough for me.
Ok, let me explain:
You can finance exceptional spending in times of crisis regardless of where you are at debt wise. Italy or Japan are not suddenly out of cash in the COVID pandemic because they spent too much before. The finances of a state are not like individual finances where you save money for later on a bank account. There are many arguments to keep the debt under control but the idea that you must save in case of a disaster makes no sense. If you need, as the US to borrow 3 trillion dollars for a war or a pandemic, you can do so. At any point.
Republicans have never cared one bit about reducing the debt or the deficit. Every single time they have cut spending, they have used the gains to finance tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations.
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On July 27 2020 15:43 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 14:24 BerserkSword wrote:On July 27 2020 10:30 Vindicare605 wrote:
If that means voting for someone I despise, just to help make sure someone I loathe is defeated? I'll make that choice every time. Things like this are why oligarchs are able to maintain their vice grip on the country. Some people don't believe in enabling. You vote for your absolute favorite in the primaries, and for the better option in the general election. If the progressive don't vote for liberals when liberals win the primary, and liberals don't vote for progressives when they win the primaries, you can be certain that neither liberals nor democrats are ever going to be elected.
If Republicans believed this they'd still be centrist enablers too. Instead they're poised to enact a far right nationalist agenda. It's foolhardy to argue to counter that with enabling moderates imo.
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On July 27 2020 15:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 15:43 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 27 2020 14:24 BerserkSword wrote:On July 27 2020 10:30 Vindicare605 wrote:
If that means voting for someone I despise, just to help make sure someone I loathe is defeated? I'll make that choice every time. Things like this are why oligarchs are able to maintain their vice grip on the country. Some people don't believe in enabling. You vote for your absolute favorite in the primaries, and for the better option in the general election. If the progressive don't vote for liberals when liberals win the primary, and liberals don't vote for progressives when they win the primaries, you can be certain that neither liberals nor democrats are ever going to be elected. If Republicans believed this they'd still be centrist enablers too. Instead they're poised to enact a far right nationalist agenda. It's foolhardy argue to counter that with enabling moderates imo.
Oh, Republicans voters always vote for the candidate that wins the primaries. That's why they keep winning elections at all, despite having the numbers against them.
It's just a fact that liberals can't win without progressive voices and progressive certainly can't win without liberal voices. If Sanders had won the primaries he would have needed centre left folks to vote for him to win. But I betcha a lot of liberals would have demonized him and refused to vote for that horrible socialist.
That's why the idea that liberals are the progressives ennemies and vice versa is so mind bogglingly stupid. They work together or they die.
Now to be fair, it's the same thing in France. The right wing dominates because they vote tactically, while the left loses itself in ludicrous infighting between radical and moderates.
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Republicans, unlike Democrats, also have fair and valid primaries, so that helps the non-establishment candidates be available to win their general elections.
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On July 27 2020 16:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
Republicans, unlike Democrats, also have fair and valid primaries, so that helps the non-establishment candidates be available to win their general elections.
I hardly see how Sanders or Warren didn't get a fair chance. They lost fair and square. I am genuinely sad about it, but they didn't convince enough people.
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On July 27 2020 16:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2020 16:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
Republicans, unlike Democrats, also have fair and valid primaries, so that helps the non-establishment candidates be available to win their general elections. I hardly see how Sanders or Warren didn't get a fair chance. They lost fair and square. I am genuinely sad about it, but they didn't convince enough people.
The first primary was literally not valid, but you probably don't see this all as enabling either.
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EPT
