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It isn’t interesting at all. Kanye has done this multiple times (2015, 2018 from memory), each time he has done this has been done to put himself in the spotlight to promote music or a business venture.
Kanye released a music video a few weeks ago so most people would assume he’s got more music coming out and this is just to get eyes on him.
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On July 05 2020 15:43 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 10:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 05 2020 10:10 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 05 2020 09:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 05 2020 09:36 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 05 2020 07:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Is there anything that get a large group of 16-24 year olds together and teach them teamwork, critical thinking, maintaining mental and physical acuity, respect for elders/superiors? Black Panthers had a pretty good thing going in that direction (without blind adherence to authority, especially the existing state), particularly for the 'at-risk' youth these types of programs seem aimed at. Personally I'm a lot more worried about the damage from next generation (and this one) of Trumps (privileged folks these programs are meant not to inconvenience) than I am the tik tok teens. Seems like we're looking in the entirely wrong direction imo. This is the point where we hypothesize steps or what have you in determining how a program would be able to make it compulsory for everyone, regardless of status. Theory crafting is something that can bring about a spark to understanding each other and the various concepts we each hold. And remember I said respect to elders/superiors. Not authority. That distinction must be made. Think of it as being a manager or supervisor at a firm of sorts. You're not someone with authority over the autonomy or freedom of another person. You are simply there to guide them. I was saying it shouldn't be compulsory? If someone is there to guide them without authority over their autonomy (like the Black Panther party was doing) then the US military/gov. (the one's who tried to systematically expunged them) shouldn't be involved at all imo. Also that we're looking at trying to figure out how to make young adults less maladjusted to our morally repugnant society, instead of how to correct the parts of society they are appropriately maladjusted to, and that's bad imo. You're jumping around the conversation and including things that wasn't stated at all. Stick with what we're talking about. If you want to discuss the correcting of societal failures, that's another topic. A topic that we have broached previously and on numerous occasions that have not born any fruit from the parties invested in discussing them. I'm sure you're aware of this? And again, mentioned that the military isn't something I'm okay with, but there are aspects of what they do that can be utilized and made better for this hypothetical. The rich being able to not be forced into this hypothetical was your comment. I am simply stating that there may be ideas that would make it impossible for it to be that way. Not jumping around. I originally stated that the compulsory service debate happened in the Vietnam era and the conclusion was that it's a bad idea for a lot of reasons (simberto and others have mentioned some), not the least of which was that the people that legislate it build in loopholes for the people they want to (typically family and donors). The purpose of this hypothetical program is to: get a large group of 16-24 year olds together and teach them teamwork, critical thinking, maintaining mental and physical acuity, respect for elders/superiors? Which is what The Black Panther party was doing (notwithstanding the 'respect for superiors' part) until the US government at the state and federal level attempted to (including Democratic strongholds) systematically expunge them. So looking at how to form something like the Black Panther party without consideration for why they were systematically expunged and branded terrorists misunderstands the problem before us imo. You don't need the Black Panthers, though. There are plenty of other organizations that include military aspects in their program. The Scouts are probably the largest, although I suspect you aren't a fan. In any case, these are all voluntary programs, which misses the point mohdoo, zerocool and others were making when lamenting the lack of character in youths today. Which I'm fairy certain his grandparents said about his parents' generation, so I'm not quite sure why we skipped straight to mandatory military service before critically analysing the premise. Although maybe you were trying to get there with your point about looking at went military service was scrapped on the first place?
I thought the conversation flowed naturally from the lament of character the previous/current generation says the current/next generation lacks. If you want to go back, we can. For me, I think there are certain events in certain classes of our current society that defined that generation. Most of us were the 9/11 generation. Before was Vietnam. The generation now has 'rona and a real push with social equity, but it's only beginning and we're not sure how it will play out as we are watching it unfold real time (except social equity as we can look to the civil rights movement for a parallel). How we come out of this pandemic will shape my nieces and nephews and I don't have an answer to that.
EDIT: To expand on what I said above after some thought, I'd like to add that in the black community, there's always the struggles that we've been witnessed to coming to light these past months and some time beforehand. During the 80's and 90's we had reagonimics and the war on drugs which we can conclude has been a definite failure in almost every possible way. The lack of character in the black community youth in the eyes of others may stem from any one of the numerous factors. The lack of character in the white community youth can be attributed to lack of empathy and privilege of not having the same pressures placed upon them as POC communities. It's a complex topic for sure, and I have no clue where to start in analyzing to conclude a prescription.
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On July 05 2020 17:06 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 15:43 Acrofales wrote:On July 05 2020 10:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 05 2020 10:10 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 05 2020 09:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 05 2020 09:36 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 05 2020 07:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Is there anything that get a large group of 16-24 year olds together and teach them teamwork, critical thinking, maintaining mental and physical acuity, respect for elders/superiors? Black Panthers had a pretty good thing going in that direction (without blind adherence to authority, especially the existing state), particularly for the 'at-risk' youth these types of programs seem aimed at. Personally I'm a lot more worried about the damage from next generation (and this one) of Trumps (privileged folks these programs are meant not to inconvenience) than I am the tik tok teens. Seems like we're looking in the entirely wrong direction imo. This is the point where we hypothesize steps or what have you in determining how a program would be able to make it compulsory for everyone, regardless of status. Theory crafting is something that can bring about a spark to understanding each other and the various concepts we each hold. And remember I said respect to elders/superiors. Not authority. That distinction must be made. Think of it as being a manager or supervisor at a firm of sorts. You're not someone with authority over the autonomy or freedom of another person. You are simply there to guide them. I was saying it shouldn't be compulsory? If someone is there to guide them without authority over their autonomy (like the Black Panther party was doing) then the US military/gov. (the one's who tried to systematically expunged them) shouldn't be involved at all imo. Also that we're looking at trying to figure out how to make young adults less maladjusted to our morally repugnant society, instead of how to correct the parts of society they are appropriately maladjusted to, and that's bad imo. You're jumping around the conversation and including things that wasn't stated at all. Stick with what we're talking about. If you want to discuss the correcting of societal failures, that's another topic. A topic that we have broached previously and on numerous occasions that have not born any fruit from the parties invested in discussing them. I'm sure you're aware of this? And again, mentioned that the military isn't something I'm okay with, but there are aspects of what they do that can be utilized and made better for this hypothetical. The rich being able to not be forced into this hypothetical was your comment. I am simply stating that there may be ideas that would make it impossible for it to be that way. Not jumping around. I originally stated that the compulsory service debate happened in the Vietnam era and the conclusion was that it's a bad idea for a lot of reasons (simberto and others have mentioned some), not the least of which was that the people that legislate it build in loopholes for the people they want to (typically family and donors). The purpose of this hypothetical program is to: get a large group of 16-24 year olds together and teach them teamwork, critical thinking, maintaining mental and physical acuity, respect for elders/superiors? Which is what The Black Panther party was doing (notwithstanding the 'respect for superiors' part) until the US government at the state and federal level attempted to (including Democratic strongholds) systematically expunge them. So looking at how to form something like the Black Panther party without consideration for why they were systematically expunged and branded terrorists misunderstands the problem before us imo. You don't need the Black Panthers, though. There are plenty of other organizations that include military aspects in their program. The Scouts are probably the largest, although I suspect you aren't a fan. In any case, these are all voluntary programs, which misses the point mohdoo, zerocool and others were making when lamenting the lack of character in youths today. Which I'm fairy certain his grandparents said about his parents' generation, so I'm not quite sure why we skipped straight to mandatory military service before critically analysing the premise. Although maybe you were trying to get there with your point about looking at went military service was scrapped on the first place? + Show Spoiler +I thought the conversation flowed naturally from the lament of character the previous/current generation says the current/next generation lacks. If you want to go back, we can. For me, I think there are certain events in certain classes of our current society that defined that generation. Most of us were the 9/11 generation. Before was Vietnam. The generation now has 'rona and a real push with social equity, but it's only beginning and we're not sure how it will play out as we are watching it unfold real time (except social equity as we can look to the civil rights movement for a parallel). How we come out of this pandemic will shape my nieces and nephews and I don't have an answer to that.
EDIT: To expand on what I said above after some thought, I'd like to add that in the black community, there's always the struggles that we've been witnessed to coming to light these past months and some time beforehand. During the 80's and 90's we had reagonimics and the war on drugs which we can conclude has been a definite failure in almost every possible way. The lack of character in the black community youth in the eyes of others may stem from any one of the numerous factors . The lack of character in the white community youth can be attributed to lack of empathy and privilege of not having the same pressures placed upon them as POC communities. It's a complex topic for sure, and I have no clue where to start in analyzing to conclude a prescription.
pretty much.
I think it is critical to consider what it is we're trying to address with something like this before determining the nature of the program. The Black Panthers and Boy Scouts are good examples of similar programs with some key differences. The communities they serve/d and to what end being some major ones.
So if it is a lack of "character" we have to make sure we know what that means. I'm sure someone like Danglars and I would have different ideas for example (while there would likely be a lot of overlap). Boy Scouts and Black Panthers were both taught to respect their elders, but that meant different things to each (and different things in different regions for Boy Scouts).
I don't want to go too far astray but it's also worth considering that the classic incentive under a capitalist system is paying them to join whatever it is we're talking about or taxing/fining them if they are too rich to incentivize with payment. It's also important to keep in mind many things can be done already, but just aren't because of our budgeting priorities.
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On July 05 2020 16:37 StalkerTL wrote:It isn’t interesting at all. Kanye has done this multiple times (2015, 2018 from memory), each time he has done this has been done to put himself in the spotlight to promote music or a business venture. Kanye released a music video a few weeks ago so most people would assume he’s got more music coming out and this is just to get eyes on him.
I still think he will go for a more serious run as a Republican in 2024, this feels more like a publicity stunt than anything else.
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On July 05 2020 22:36 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 16:37 StalkerTL wrote:It isn’t interesting at all. Kanye has done this multiple times (2015, 2018 from memory), each time he has done this has been done to put himself in the spotlight to promote music or a business venture. Kanye released a music video a few weeks ago so most people would assume he’s got more music coming out and this is just to get eyes on him. I still think he will go for a more serious run as a Republican in 2024, this feels more like a publicity stunt than anything else.
Is there a universe in which his candidacy is anything else than a fat joke?
I mean I know we said that of Trump but still..
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On July 05 2020 22:59 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 22:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 22:36 LuckyFool wrote:On July 05 2020 16:37 StalkerTL wrote:It isn’t interesting at all. Kanye has done this multiple times (2015, 2018 from memory), each time he has done this has been done to put himself in the spotlight to promote music or a business venture. Kanye released a music video a few weeks ago so most people would assume he’s got more music coming out and this is just to get eyes on him. I still think he will go for a more serious run as a Republican in 2024, this feels more like a publicity stunt than anything else. Is there a universe in which his candidacy is anything else than a fat joke? I mean I know we said that of Trump but still.. With it turning into a popularity contest of late, I think he might actually have a shot. Clearly finding the best person to run the country is not a priority any more (and that is a shot at both candidates as I would call neither the best of the best!)
Well outside of Trump, every candidate or even serious primary contender in recent times have been very seasoned politicians. You might like or not like Mitt Romney, or Joe Biden, or Bernie Sanders, or even Rick Santorum for that matter, but those are people who know what the job is about and are prepared for it.
I don't think Kanye West has ever demonstrated that he had a clue about political issues or government whatsoever.
Then there is Trump but I would like to think he is an anomaly.
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On July 05 2020 23:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 23:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 22:59 JimmiC wrote:On July 05 2020 22:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 22:36 LuckyFool wrote:On July 05 2020 16:37 StalkerTL wrote:It isn’t interesting at all. Kanye has done this multiple times (2015, 2018 from memory), each time he has done this has been done to put himself in the spotlight to promote music or a business venture. Kanye released a music video a few weeks ago so most people would assume he’s got more music coming out and this is just to get eyes on him. I still think he will go for a more serious run as a Republican in 2024, this feels more like a publicity stunt than anything else. Is there a universe in which his candidacy is anything else than a fat joke? I mean I know we said that of Trump but still.. With it turning into a popularity contest of late, I think he might actually have a shot. Clearly finding the best person to run the country is not a priority any more (and that is a shot at both candidates as I would call neither the best of the best!) Well outside if Trump, every candidate or even serious primary contender in recent times have been very seasoned politicians. You might like or not like Mitt Romney, or Joe Biden, or Bernie Sanders, or even Rick Santorum for that matter, but those are people who know what the job is about and are prepared for it. I don't think Kanye West has ever demonstrated that he had a clue about political issues or government whatsoever. Then there is Trump but I would like to think he is an anomaly. I could just be being cynical but I think Biden was the choice because of his popularity by being VP for Obama not due to his own political career/choices, I get that his position with Obama was political, I just think the politics part was very small. And then of course Trump as you have pointed out was 0 political and he turned that into an advantage especially campaigning. Now you could be right that because of how poorly Trump has done, especially in regards to handling Covid there might be a bounce back to more season Candidates. I'm just not sure because of the speed of the news cycle and the immediacy of social media.
Well I agree in Biden's case, although I think that you can't disregard his political record and his platform in his victory. But even if it's a popularity contest - and it always is a bit in a democracy -, it's popularity as a politician.
Kanye West is not a politician, has no experience leading anything at all and has not even demonstrated any of the knowledge or skills needed for this position. Biden has, regardless one thinks about him and his merit.
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On July 06 2020 00:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 23:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 23:42 JimmiC wrote:On July 05 2020 23:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 22:59 JimmiC wrote:On July 05 2020 22:54 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 22:36 LuckyFool wrote:On July 05 2020 16:37 StalkerTL wrote:It isn’t interesting at all. Kanye has done this multiple times (2015, 2018 from memory), each time he has done this has been done to put himself in the spotlight to promote music or a business venture. Kanye released a music video a few weeks ago so most people would assume he’s got more music coming out and this is just to get eyes on him. I still think he will go for a more serious run as a Republican in 2024, this feels more like a publicity stunt than anything else. Is there a universe in which his candidacy is anything else than a fat joke? I mean I know we said that of Trump but still.. With it turning into a popularity contest of late, I think he might actually have a shot. Clearly finding the best person to run the country is not a priority any more (and that is a shot at both candidates as I would call neither the best of the best!) Well outside if Trump, every candidate or even serious primary contender in recent times have been very seasoned politicians. You might like or not like Mitt Romney, or Joe Biden, or Bernie Sanders, or even Rick Santorum for that matter, but those are people who know what the job is about and are prepared for it. I don't think Kanye West has ever demonstrated that he had a clue about political issues or government whatsoever. Then there is Trump but I would like to think he is an anomaly. I could just be being cynical but I think Biden was the choice because of his popularity by being VP for Obama not due to his own political career/choices, I get that his position with Obama was political, I just think the politics part was very small. And then of course Trump as you have pointed out was 0 political and he turned that into an advantage especially campaigning. Now you could be right that because of how poorly Trump has done, especially in regards to handling Covid there might be a bounce back to more season Candidates. I'm just not sure because of the speed of the news cycle and the immediacy of social media. Well I agree in Biden's case, although I think that you can't disregard his political record and his platform in his victory. But even if it's a popularity contest - and it always is a bit in a democracy -, it's popularity as a politician. Kanye West is not a politician, has no experience leading anything at all and has not even demonstrated any of the knowledge or skills needed for this position. Biden has, regardless one thinks about him and his merit. At any rate it would be very interesting to see how Kanye would do in a republican Primary considering that Trump has a fair bit of white southern support. Kayne would have to pull a completely different group of voters. BTW I agree Kanye would be a bad candidate for any number of reasons. I'm just not willing to say he has no chance because American politics is so incredibly unpredictable at this point.
At least it would be entertaining.
Then agaaaain, we said that about Trump. Right wing populist politics are always hilarious until the moment they are not 😕
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I can't believe we're seriously having to discuss Kanye's spoiler potential against Biden or speculating on his political future, but such is the world today. At least Trump had a few policies laid out when he descended from the escalator, went through the official RNC channels and got nominated. All Kanye's done so far is make a tweet and no one even knows if he signed the papers to be a candidate. He can't even make it on some states' ballots because the deadline passed, and for the states left he has to assemble tens of thousands of signatures to be eligible. Definitely possible, but there's a difference between tangible political organizing and having social media clout.
Even if he manages to be a serious independent candidate, I don't really see that spoiler potential. If you're voting for Biden, you're probably doing it because you're virulently, passionately opposed to Trump, and a sudden Kanye option won't change your mind. Who does he really have appeal with, millennials and Gen Z who are doing it for the memes and were never going for Biden in the first place?
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Yep, I agree, I don't think there's much spoiler potential at all, the people who have arrived at the "I'm gonna hold my nose and vote for Biden for X, Y, and Z reasons" juncture do not seem at all likely to suddenly pivot towards someone like Kanye.
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On July 06 2020 02:28 JimmiC wrote:
I was more meaning in a post Trump Rep primary, but I think at this point it won't matter much for this election. I think this is going to be a referendum on Trump, yes you vote Trump No you vote Biden. I think the yes for Biden vote will be pretty small. And I can't imagine that many No Trump people supporting Kayne.
However, I could see Trump and Kayne having a conversation like "Kanye you are the bestest Black person and should Run so Black people Vote for you instead Of Biden"(random capitals because that is Trump's thing) "President Trump you are right I'll tweet it right away, and it can't hurt album sales".
To be fair to Biden, I don't think that this election could be anything else than a referendum on Trump. He is so incredibly polarizing that you would need an equally unorthodox candidate to make this campaign about anything else than him. Sanders might have succeeded, because his program was radical and actually rather polarizing too. But I think that unfortunately it would have degenerated into schoolboy taunts versus someone trying to talk substance. I think Biden has decided not to talk at all which is a rather good idea right now. "Let the race be all about Trump since he is sinking his own ship" is a coherent strategy.
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Think there's an argument for Kanye to be the lesser of 3 evils. He's certainly been responsible for less harm than either Trump or Biden.
Most of what could make Kanye not the lesser evil is based on the idea he's inexperienced. He's probably the least likely to die in office, and the only Black candidate during a national uprising about race and policing. That said, it's most definitely a publicity stunt. Worth remembering Trump did this a few times before he finally actually ran. 2024 might be his run.
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Speaking about third party candidates, I remember a significant amount of attention being given to Gary "What is Aleppo" Johnson and Jill Stein in 2016, but this year I don't think I saw anything about Libertarians or Greens. Did I miss something, or it's just people being less interested in alternative candidates than they were four years ago?
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On July 06 2020 01:58 farvacola wrote:
Yep, I agree, I don't think there's much spoiler potential at all, the people who have arrived at the "I'm gonna hold my nose and vote for Biden for X, Y, and Z reasons" juncture do not seem at all likely to suddenly pivot towards someone like Kanye.
Agreed, just a silly distraction. I doubt he'll still be running by the time November comes around. Exceptionally shitty guy indulging his ego and suffering from delusion. Yawn.
Can't think of a single state he would shift. Biden's grasp on various demographics/counties is miles ahead of what Clinton pulled together.
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On July 06 2020 06:50 Sent. wrote:
Speaking about third party candidates, I remember a significant amount of attention being given to Gary "What is Aleppo" Johnson and Jill Stein in 2016, but this year I don't think I saw anything about Libertarians or Greens. Did I miss something, or it's just people being less interested in alternative candidates than they were four years ago?
Third party candidates can't afford to campaign for two years. What is Aleppo happened in September so give it a couple more months.
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EPT
