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On July 05 2020 02:16 IgnE wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory service for everyone?
I strongly support the idea of mandatory service so long as people can basically do anything. If I could have done chemistry in service of the military, sign me up. And I think it should include structural/infrastructure work domestically. I am completely against all citizens going through combat training. The physical training is good, the ethical muddying of water regarding violence is bad.
Coming from a very poor, very troubled community when I was young, I really do think a large portion of the country needs significantly more guidance and more to plug into. High school simply isn't enough momentum to get people on a good path. We need more training, direction, guidance and skills before we can be told "alright see ya". Wealthy families do a really good job at mentoring the young and making sure they are on a good path. My family and many others in my socioeconomic class are basically treated like cattle and never given a fair chance at being successful. Its very sad. Poor children's rights are, IMO, the biggest civil rights issue of our time. Perhaps tied with Black People as a whole. But in general, I would say society fails children in devastating, terrible ways. We could do better and mandatory service would be a great way to fix that. In short, poor parents simply can't be relied on. They are too ineffective for a variety of reasons.
Edit: Worth noting I feel poor parents are in a very difficult position and deserve more support. A lot of the reason poor parents struggle is that, well, they are poor. There are a variety of negative externalities that come from letting people be poor. Poor parents are put in a very difficult position and generally do a poor job as a result. Being able to work less hours and a variety of other things would allow poor parents to do a better job.
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On July 05 2020 02:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 02:16 IgnE wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory service for everyone? I strongly support the idea of mandatory service so long as people can basically do anything. If I could have done chemistry in service of the military, sign me up. And I think it should include structural/infrastructure work domestically. I am completely against all citizens going through combat training. The physical training is good, the ethical muddying of water regarding violence is bad. Coming from a very poor, very troubled community when I was young, I really do think a large portion of the country needs significantly more guidance and more to plug into. High school simply isn't enough momentum to get people on a good path. We need more training, direction, guidance and skills before we can be told "alright see ya". Wealthy families do a really good job at mentoring the young and making sure they are on a good path. My family and many others in my socioeconomic class are basically treated like cattle and never given a fair chance at being successful. Its very sad. Poor children's rights are, IMO, the biggest civil rights issue of our time. Perhaps tied with Black People as a whole. But in general, I would say society fails children in devastating, terrible ways. We could do better and mandatory service would be a great way to fix that. In short, poor parents simply can't be relied on. They are too ineffective for a variety of reasons. Edit: Worth noting I feel poor parents are in a very difficult position and deserve more support. A lot of the reason poor parents struggle is that, well, they are poor. There are a variety of negative externalities that come from letting people be poor. Poor parents are put in a very difficult position and generally do a poor job as a result. Being able to work less hours and a variety of other things would allow poor parents to do a better job.
Military service is kind of obsolete from a military point of view as far as I know, since armies need increasingly very specialized personnel rather than large number of unqualified people.
So essentially you end up with an extremely expensive, gigantic education program. Don't you think that money would be better spent on education per say, to make it free for example?
Also, compulsory military service can be an absolute thorn in the shoe of many young people who are on trajectory where every year counts. If it's for the good of the nation, I get it, but if it's useless from a defense point of view, it's really a problem.
Note that I'm parroting stuff I read when the military service was discontinued in France. I'm by no mean an expert.
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On July 05 2020 02:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 02:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 05 2020 02:16 IgnE wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory service for everyone? I strongly support the idea of mandatory service so long as people can basically do anything. If I could have done chemistry in service of the military, sign me up. And I think it should include structural/infrastructure work domestically. I am completely against all citizens going through combat training. The physical training is good, the ethical muddying of water regarding violence is bad. Coming from a very poor, very troubled community when I was young, I really do think a large portion of the country needs significantly more guidance and more to plug into. High school simply isn't enough momentum to get people on a good path. We need more training, direction, guidance and skills before we can be told "alright see ya". Wealthy families do a really good job at mentoring the young and making sure they are on a good path. My family and many others in my socioeconomic class are basically treated like cattle and never given a fair chance at being successful. Its very sad. Poor children's rights are, IMO, the biggest civil rights issue of our time. Perhaps tied with Black People as a whole. But in general, I would say society fails children in devastating, terrible ways. We could do better and mandatory service would be a great way to fix that. In short, poor parents simply can't be relied on. They are too ineffective for a variety of reasons. Edit: Worth noting I feel poor parents are in a very difficult position and deserve more support. A lot of the reason poor parents struggle is that, well, they are poor. There are a variety of negative externalities that come from letting people be poor. Poor parents are put in a very difficult position and generally do a poor job as a result. Being able to work less hours and a variety of other things would allow poor parents to do a better job. Military service is kind of obsolete from a military point of view as far as I know, since armies need increasingly very specialized personnel rather than large number of unqualified people. So essentially you end up with an extremely expensive, gigantic education program. Don't you think that money would be better spent on education per say, to make it free for example? Also, compulsory military service can be an absolute thorn in the shoe of many young people who are on trajectory where every year counts. If it's for the good of the nation, I get it, but if it's useless from a defense point of view, it's really a problem. Note that I'm parroting stuff I read when the military service was discontinued in France. I'm by no mean an expert.
Rural America's dogshit culture is impossible to get on board with the idea of mandatory/free university education. You have to keep in mind that these are people who live in communities where no one actually immigrates to, only people leaving to pursue education. As a result, their culture turns into this rotten mush that only molds with time.
Labeling free college as "M I L I T A R Y ~~~ G R E A T N E S S" will make them shoot their shotguns in the air and celebrate. Their hyper obsession with what they see as masculinity of military service will get them hard as a rock at the idea, while also empowering and uplifting the poor. The only way to improve education in the US is to label it "~~~Military ~~~Service~~~".
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On July 05 2020 02:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 02:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 05 2020 02:16 IgnE wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory service for everyone? I strongly support the idea of mandatory service so long as people can basically do anything. If I could have done chemistry in service of the military, sign me up. And I think it should include structural/infrastructure work domestically. I am completely against all citizens going through combat training. The physical training is good, the ethical muddying of water regarding violence is bad. Coming from a very poor, very troubled community when I was young, I really do think a large portion of the country needs significantly more guidance and more to plug into. High school simply isn't enough momentum to get people on a good path. We need more training, direction, guidance and skills before we can be told "alright see ya". Wealthy families do a really good job at mentoring the young and making sure they are on a good path. My family and many others in my socioeconomic class are basically treated like cattle and never given a fair chance at being successful. Its very sad. Poor children's rights are, IMO, the biggest civil rights issue of our time. Perhaps tied with Black People as a whole. But in general, I would say society fails children in devastating, terrible ways. We could do better and mandatory service would be a great way to fix that. In short, poor parents simply can't be relied on. They are too ineffective for a variety of reasons. Edit: Worth noting I feel poor parents are in a very difficult position and deserve more support. A lot of the reason poor parents struggle is that, well, they are poor. There are a variety of negative externalities that come from letting people be poor. Poor parents are put in a very difficult position and generally do a poor job as a result. Being able to work less hours and a variety of other things would allow poor parents to do a better job. Military service is kind of obsolete from a military point of view as far as I know, since armies need increasingly very specialized personnel rather than large number of unqualified people. So essentially you end up with an extremely expensive, gigantic education program. Don't you think that money would be better spent on education per say, to make it free for example? Also, compulsory military service can be an absolute thorn in the shoe of many young people who are on trajectory where every year counts. If it's for the good of the nation, I get it, but if it's useless from a defense point of view, it's really a problem. Note that I'm parroting stuff I read when the military service was discontinued in France. I'm by no mean an expert.
Being IN the military, and observing the youth of today, I believe it is a valuable and needed form of education.
@Mohdoo : there is nearly 0 combat training needed in basic drill, well maybe learn how to handle a weapon, and maybe a few sets of close quarters mock battles, like 2*2h. Otherwise it's just a physical build-up.
However, a lot of youngsters nowadays have absolutely 0 respect for elders, institutions, or their peers, and lack social skills or any drive in life. Maybe it's due to bad education from parents from the 70's, or from both parents having to work, I don't know, but the result is there.
A few months of ordering them around, getting up at a fixed time, and going through routines while learning teamwork does a lot of good.
I'll always give the example of SMA (Service Militaire Adapté, adapted military service...), which is a form of service where you give this army setting and rules to youngsters who have left school or are unemployed/lost, while using local industries that require workers at that point in time to provide a specialised training in that specific field. Usually they come out able to respect work schedules, their bosses, work in a team, and trained. They get a job really soon (around 80% right when they exit the training).
Since you don't really want to keep people out of school or have a gap year, I'd argue for a ~3/4monthes service. It would do some good.
But yes, I view it as a form of education, it's not the goal of the army, and it shows a failure in the bringing up of our children (not necessarily the school system, since school is about teaching, not educating. That's the parents' job.)
Source with a tl/dr in english ! https://www.le-sma.com/presentation/the-adapted-military-service-usgb-sum-up.html
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On July 05 2020 02:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Military service is kind of obsolete from a military point of view as far as I know, since armies need increasingly very specialized personnel rather than large number of unqualified people.
So essentially you end up with an extremely expensive, gigantic education program. Don't you think that money would be better spent on education per say, to make it free for example?
Also, compulsory military service can be an absolute thorn in the shoe of many young people who are on trajectory where every year counts. If it's for the good of the nation, I get it, but if it's useless from a defense point of view, it's really a problem.
Note that I'm parroting stuff I read when the military service was discontinued in France. I'm by no mean an expert.
All of this is true. Even for countries such as Russia with a long history of compulsory military service (and said service being largely seen as a patriotic duty), that requirement is being slowly phased out. Pretty much every other country with a reasonably modern military is in the same boat. Only countries I know that seem to be still very much supportive of mandatory service are those where the military consists primarily of cannon fodder.
Add all the reasons why compulsive service is no longer useful to the US-specific reasons why it isn't tenable (the draft isn't popular, to say the least) - and you have one terrible idea in the making. Best to leave military work to the volunteers. You can satisfy that patriotic blabla by conscripting young people into jury duty or something of the sort.
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It doesn't have to be military only. There's the Peace Corps as well. A mandatory public service initiative, say 18 months, would do good for people to be able to see the "real world" and hopefully enlighten them beyond the bubble they've grown up in. I joined the Marines voluntarily because I didn't have a direction (still don't). But the lessons I learned are still with me and shaped me a little bit. Being able to see parts of the world and hear stories from those who've gone further mentally and physically was inspiring.
But I don't agree with marketing or mandatory service. It should be completely voluntary to join the military. But I will cosign a mandatory public service initiative of some kind.
@ JimmiC: Probably ours? I'm early thirties.
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On July 05 2020 03:36 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 02:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 02:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 05 2020 02:16 IgnE wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory service for everyone? I strongly support the idea of mandatory service so long as people can basically do anything. If I could have done chemistry in service of the military, sign me up. And I think it should include structural/infrastructure work domestically. I am completely against all citizens going through combat training. The physical training is good, the ethical muddying of water regarding violence is bad. Coming from a very poor, very troubled community when I was young, I really do think a large portion of the country needs significantly more guidance and more to plug into. High school simply isn't enough momentum to get people on a good path. We need more training, direction, guidance and skills before we can be told "alright see ya". Wealthy families do a really good job at mentoring the young and making sure they are on a good path. My family and many others in my socioeconomic class are basically treated like cattle and never given a fair chance at being successful. Its very sad. Poor children's rights are, IMO, the biggest civil rights issue of our time. Perhaps tied with Black People as a whole. But in general, I would say society fails children in devastating, terrible ways. We could do better and mandatory service would be a great way to fix that. In short, poor parents simply can't be relied on. They are too ineffective for a variety of reasons. Edit: Worth noting I feel poor parents are in a very difficult position and deserve more support. A lot of the reason poor parents struggle is that, well, they are poor. There are a variety of negative externalities that come from letting people be poor. Poor parents are put in a very difficult position and generally do a poor job as a result. Being able to work less hours and a variety of other things would allow poor parents to do a better job. Military service is kind of obsolete from a military point of view as far as I know, since armies need increasingly very specialized personnel rather than large number of unqualified people. So essentially you end up with an extremely expensive, gigantic education program. Don't you think that money would be better spent on education per say, to make it free for example? Also, compulsory military service can be an absolute thorn in the shoe of many young people who are on trajectory where every year counts. If it's for the good of the nation, I get it, but if it's useless from a defense point of view, it's really a problem. Note that I'm parroting stuff I read when the military service was discontinued in France. I'm by no mean an expert. Being IN the military, and observing the youth of today, I believe it is a valuable and needed form of education. @Mohdoo : there is nearly 0 combat training needed in basic drill, well maybe learn how to handle a weapon, and maybe a few sets of close quarters mock battles, like 2*2h. Otherwise it's just a physical build-up. However, a lot of youngsters nowadays have absolutely 0 respect for elders, institutions, or their peers, and lack social skills or any drive in life. Maybe it's due to bad education from parents from the 70's, or from both parents having to work, I don't know, but the result is there. A few months of ordering them around, getting up at a fixed time, and going through routines while learning teamwork does a lot of good. I'll always give the example of SMA (Service Militaire Adapté, adapted military service...), which is a form of service where you give this army setting and rules to youngsters who have left school or are unemployed/lost, while using local industries that require workers at that point in time to provide a specialised training in that specific field. Usually they come out able to respect work schedules, their bosses, work in a team, and trained. They get a job really soon (around 80% right when they exit the training). Since you don't really want to keep people out of school or have a gap year, I'd argue for a ~3/4monthes service. It would do some good. But yes, I view it as a form of education, it's not the goal of the army, and it shows a failure in the bringing up of our children (not necessarily the school system, since school is about teaching, not educating. That's the parents' job.) Source with a tl/dr in english ! https://www.le-sma.com/presentation/the-adapted-military-service-usgb-sum-up.html
Is that actually true, though?
Whenever i work with young people (except for people currently in puberty), they usually have a pretty good work ethic and manage to work pretty well in teams and in school contexts. If anything, they are a bit too quick to accept answers based on nothing but the authority of the person saying them.
I disagree that unquestionably accepting authority or "respecting your elders" are necessary values people need. Being old just means the absolute minimum necessary success of "not dying". If they actually did something with that time, respect them for that. Otherwise, give them the same amount of respect that any person deserves.
As an additional point, even if we were to say that that is stuff that young people need to learn, i don't think that the military is who should teach it. The military is a very specialized group. Their main purpose is to efficiently kill for the good of the country. They should stick to that. Teach the people they employ what they need to know to efficiently kill for the good of the country, or to support other people in efficiently killing for the good of the country. This glorification of the military as a place that turns boys into men is a bit too prussian for my tastes. Maybe in some circumstances killing for the good of the country is necessary. But not everybody needs the qualities an efficient killer needs. In a lot circumstances, those might actually be negatives.
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On July 05 2020 04:29 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 03:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
It doesn't have to be military only. There's the Peace Corps as well. A mandatory public service initiative, say 18 months, would do good for people to be able to see the "real world" and hopefully enlighten them beyond the bubble they've grown up in. I joined the Marines voluntarily because I didn't have a direction (still don't). But the lessons I learned are still with me and shaped me a little bit. Being able to see parts of the world and hear stories from those who've gone further mentally and physically was inspiring.
But I don't agree with marketing or mandatory service. It should be completely voluntary to join the military. But I will cosign a mandatory public service initiative of some kind.
@ JimmiC: Probably ours? I'm early thirties. LOL definitely not! Gen Z and Gen Y do not think millennial's have respect for their elders or have drive. Mandatory service is somewhat easy to put in because basically all the voters who decide will be too old to have to do it 
Well I meant Gen X into our generation. I agree with you on a broad scale about the millenials.
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On July 05 2020 03:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
It doesn't have to be military only. There's the Peace Corps as well. A mandatory public service initiative, say 18 months, would do good for people to be able to see the "real world" and hopefully enlighten them beyond the bubble they've grown up in. I joined the Marines voluntarily because I didn't have a direction (still don't). But the lessons I learned are still with me and shaped me a little bit. Being able to see parts of the world and hear stories from those who've gone further mentally and physically was inspiring.
But I don't agree with marketing or mandatory service. It should be completely voluntary to join the military. But I will cosign a mandatory public service initiative of some kind.
@ JimmiC: Probably ours? I'm early thirties.
For some people, 18 months lost at age 18 is a complete disaster. I know it certainly would have been for me. If you do anything that is very competitive and where your age really matters, you absolutely can't afford to lose 18 months.
@Mohdoo that makes an awful lot if sense, even though it's pretty sad. Anti-intellectualism at its most crass...
I like Nouar solution of a 3 months service. You don't completely screw people who are on a race against age and it doesn't cost the nation an absolute fortune.
On July 05 2020 03:59 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 03:36 Nouar wrote:On July 05 2020 02:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 02:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 05 2020 02:16 IgnE wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory service for everyone? I strongly support the idea of mandatory service so long as people can basically do anything. If I could have done chemistry in service of the military, sign me up. And I think it should include structural/infrastructure work domestically. I am completely against all citizens going through combat training. The physical training is good, the ethical muddying of water regarding violence is bad. Coming from a very poor, very troubled community when I was young, I really do think a large portion of the country needs significantly more guidance and more to plug into. High school simply isn't enough momentum to get people on a good path. We need more training, direction, guidance and skills before we can be told "alright see ya". Wealthy families do a really good job at mentoring the young and making sure they are on a good path. My family and many others in my socioeconomic class are basically treated like cattle and never given a fair chance at being successful. Its very sad. Poor children's rights are, IMO, the biggest civil rights issue of our time. Perhaps tied with Black People as a whole. But in general, I would say society fails children in devastating, terrible ways. We could do better and mandatory service would be a great way to fix that. In short, poor parents simply can't be relied on. They are too ineffective for a variety of reasons. Edit: Worth noting I feel poor parents are in a very difficult position and deserve more support. A lot of the reason poor parents struggle is that, well, they are poor. There are a variety of negative externalities that come from letting people be poor. Poor parents are put in a very difficult position and generally do a poor job as a result. Being able to work less hours and a variety of other things would allow poor parents to do a better job. Military service is kind of obsolete from a military point of view as far as I know, since armies need increasingly very specialized personnel rather than large number of unqualified people. So essentially you end up with an extremely expensive, gigantic education program. Don't you think that money would be better spent on education per say, to make it free for example? Also, compulsory military service can be an absolute thorn in the shoe of many young people who are on trajectory where every year counts. If it's for the good of the nation, I get it, but if it's useless from a defense point of view, it's really a problem. Note that I'm parroting stuff I read when the military service was discontinued in France. I'm by no mean an expert. Being IN the military, and observing the youth of today, I believe it is a valuable and needed form of education. @Mohdoo : there is nearly 0 combat training needed in basic drill, well maybe learn how to handle a weapon, and maybe a few sets of close quarters mock battles, like 2*2h. Otherwise it's just a physical build-up. However, a lot of youngsters nowadays have absolutely 0 respect for elders, institutions, or their peers, and lack social skills or any drive in life. Maybe it's due to bad education from parents from the 70's, or from both parents having to work, I don't know, but the result is there. A few months of ordering them around, getting up at a fixed time, and going through routines while learning teamwork does a lot of good. I'll always give the example of SMA (Service Militaire Adapté, adapted military service...), which is a form of service where you give this army setting and rules to youngsters who have left school or are unemployed/lost, while using local industries that require workers at that point in time to provide a specialised training in that specific field. Usually they come out able to respect work schedules, their bosses, work in a team, and trained. They get a job really soon (around 80% right when they exit the training). Since you don't really want to keep people out of school or have a gap year, I'd argue for a ~3/4monthes service. It would do some good. But yes, I view it as a form of education, it's not the goal of the army, and it shows a failure in the bringing up of our children (not necessarily the school system, since school is about teaching, not educating. That's the parents' job.) Source with a tl/dr in english ! https://www.le-sma.com/presentation/the-adapted-military-service-usgb-sum-up.html Is that actually true, though? Whenever i work with young people (except for people currently in puberty), they usually have a pretty good work ethic and manage to work pretty well in teams and in school contexts. If anything, they are a bit too quick to accept answers based on nothing but the authority of the person saying them. I disagree that unquestionably accepting authority or "respecting your elders" are necessary values people need. Being old just means the absolute minimum necessary success of "not dying". If they actually did something with that time, respect them for that. Otherwise, give them the same amount of respect that any person deserves. As an additional point, even if we were to say that that is stuff that young people need to learn, i don't think that the military is who should teach it. The military is a very specialized group. Their main purpose is to efficiently kill for the good of the country. They should stick to that. Teach the people they employ what they need to know to efficiently kill for the good of the country, or to support other people in efficiently killing for the good of the country. This glorification of the military as a place that turns boys into men is a bit too prussian for my tastes. Maybe in some circumstances killing for the good of the country is necessary. But not everybody needs the qualities an efficient killer needs. In a lot circumstances, those might actually be negatives.
I think deep down I totally agree even though I can hear the arguments pro military service. Also I come from a relatively privileged milieu and have absolutely zero experience with either young people needing guidance nor anything related to the military, so I am the absolute worst person to have a valuable opinion, other than the fact that one has to be careful it can be extremely detrimental to a number of kids.
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On July 05 2020 03:59 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 03:36 Nouar wrote:On July 05 2020 02:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 02:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 05 2020 02:16 IgnE wrote:
How do you feel about mandatory service for everyone? I strongly support the idea of mandatory service so long as people can basically do anything. If I could have done chemistry in service of the military, sign me up. And I think it should include structural/infrastructure work domestically. I am completely against all citizens going through combat training. The physical training is good, the ethical muddying of water regarding violence is bad. Coming from a very poor, very troubled community when I was young, I really do think a large portion of the country needs significantly more guidance and more to plug into. High school simply isn't enough momentum to get people on a good path. We need more training, direction, guidance and skills before we can be told "alright see ya". Wealthy families do a really good job at mentoring the young and making sure they are on a good path. My family and many others in my socioeconomic class are basically treated like cattle and never given a fair chance at being successful. Its very sad. Poor children's rights are, IMO, the biggest civil rights issue of our time. Perhaps tied with Black People as a whole. But in general, I would say society fails children in devastating, terrible ways. We could do better and mandatory service would be a great way to fix that. In short, poor parents simply can't be relied on. They are too ineffective for a variety of reasons. Edit: Worth noting I feel poor parents are in a very difficult position and deserve more support. A lot of the reason poor parents struggle is that, well, they are poor. There are a variety of negative externalities that come from letting people be poor. Poor parents are put in a very difficult position and generally do a poor job as a result. Being able to work less hours and a variety of other things would allow poor parents to do a better job. Military service is kind of obsolete from a military point of view as far as I know, since armies need increasingly very specialized personnel rather than large number of unqualified people. So essentially you end up with an extremely expensive, gigantic education program. Don't you think that money would be better spent on education per say, to make it free for example? Also, compulsory military service can be an absolute thorn in the shoe of many young people who are on trajectory where every year counts. If it's for the good of the nation, I get it, but if it's useless from a defense point of view, it's really a problem. Note that I'm parroting stuff I read when the military service was discontinued in France. I'm by no mean an expert. Being IN the military, and observing the youth of today, I believe it is a valuable and needed form of education. @Mohdoo : there is nearly 0 combat training needed in basic drill, well maybe learn how to handle a weapon, and maybe a few sets of close quarters mock battles, like 2*2h. Otherwise it's just a physical build-up. However, a lot of youngsters nowadays have absolutely 0 respect for elders, institutions, or their peers, and lack social skills or any drive in life. Maybe it's due to bad education from parents from the 70's, or from both parents having to work, I don't know, but the result is there. A few months of ordering them around, getting up at a fixed time, and going through routines while learning teamwork does a lot of good. I'll always give the example of SMA (Service Militaire Adapté, adapted military service...), which is a form of service where you give this army setting and rules to youngsters who have left school or are unemployed/lost, while using local industries that require workers at that point in time to provide a specialised training in that specific field. Usually they come out able to respect work schedules, their bosses, work in a team, and trained. They get a job really soon (around 80% right when they exit the training). Since you don't really want to keep people out of school or have a gap year, I'd argue for a ~3/4monthes service. It would do some good. But yes, I view it as a form of education, it's not the goal of the army, and it shows a failure in the bringing up of our children (not necessarily the school system, since school is about teaching, not educating. That's the parents' job.) Source with a tl/dr in english ! https://www.le-sma.com/presentation/the-adapted-military-service-usgb-sum-up.html Is that actually true, though? Whenever i work with young people (except for people currently in puberty), they usually have a pretty good work ethic and manage to work pretty well in teams and in school contexts. If anything, they are a bit too quick to accept answers based on nothing but the authority of the person saying them. I disagree that unquestionably accepting authority or "respecting your elders" are necessary values people need. Being old just means the absolute minimum necessary success of "not dying". If they actually did something with that time, respect them for that. Otherwise, give them the same amount of respect that any person deserves. As an additional point, even if we were to say that that is stuff that young people need to learn, i don't think that the military is who should teach it. The military is a very specialized group. Their main purpose is to efficiently kill for the good of the country. They should stick to that. Teach the people they employ what they need to know to efficiently kill for the good of the country, or to support other people in efficiently killing for the good of the country. This glorification of the military as a place that turns boys into men is a bit too prussian for my tastes. Maybe in some circumstances killing for the good of the country is necessary. But not everybody needs the qualities an efficient killer needs. In a lot circumstances, those might actually be negatives.
Two things here.
I am mostly talking about the drop-outs and others who have lost their way/find they don't belong. Voluntary is nice and all, but if you drop school early, there could be something like a compulsory draft that would help you learn a craft.
A full-scale draft is pretty much impossible, even dedicating 100% of the (french) army would not be able to manage it. Too few active personnel to cover a whole generation.
Second, your view of the military is too narrow and prussian as you say. It doesn't reflect a modern-day army. Something like 10% of the military are front-line troops who need to be masters at killing. For all the rest, weapons training is part of the curriculum, but we are mostly frigorists, drivers, IT guys, cooks, maintenance, etc... basically all kinds of trades. Even in a dedicated melee regiment (infantry, artillery, cavalry), less than 50% of those guys are "killers". Other specialties have more training than in regular regiments, for sure.
And even then, you are only talking about the Army. Not Air Force, or Navy. Navy guys don't really need to use a gun with a few exceptions. They operate a ship. Same for the Air Force, pilots don't have to be shooting experts, and ground personnel even less.
And after that, you also have the Healthcare service, the IT service, the HR service, the Oil service etc... which are on the side and sometimes common to all three armies...
You can perfectly train people to work as a team and have a set living environment, with boundaries, orders, schedule, work ethic, and physical training (emphasis on being tired while in a group and helping each other, helping to bring cohesion and bonds) without needing to learn to kill.
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On July 05 2020 04:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 03:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
It doesn't have to be military only. There's the Peace Corps as well. A mandatory public service initiative, say 18 months, would do good for people to be able to see the "real world" and hopefully enlighten them beyond the bubble they've grown up in. I joined the Marines voluntarily because I didn't have a direction (still don't). But the lessons I learned are still with me and shaped me a little bit. Being able to see parts of the world and hear stories from those who've gone further mentally and physically was inspiring.
But I don't agree with marketing or mandatory service. It should be completely voluntary to join the military. But I will cosign a mandatory public service initiative of some kind.
@ JimmiC: Probably ours? I'm early thirties. For some people, 18 months lost at age 18 is a complete disaster. I know it certainly would have been for me. If you do anything that is very competitive and where your age really matters, you absolutely can't afford to lose 18 months. @Mohdoo that makes an awful lot if sense, even though it's pretty sad. Anti-intellectualism at its most crass... I like Nouar solution of a 3 months service. You don't completely screw people who are on a race against age and it doesn't cost the nation an absolute fortune.
The problem with 3 months of service is that it is pointless. The whole point of a public service is to provide some service to society. But in any job, you need some training and some effort by people who know what they are doing before you start becoming useful. I think that quite often, you actually provide negative worktime for a month or two, simply because it takes time from experienced workers to teach you. If you are only there for three months, i think the place you are at might work more efficiently if you were never there in the first place.
Furthermore, this leads to a situation where you have this three-months phase where everyone is overrun by 18 year olds doing their three months service after school, followed by 9 months of none of them being around. I cannot see how that is effective either. I guess you can have them do inventory, clean up some trash, or something like that. But that is hardly an efficient service to society.
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If you do it like with Korean e-sports, then those in high competitive areas can get a waiver. And it doesn't have to be all at once. There are times where your season is over and you can use that time to to do your service. When your season is about to begin, you can go back and train to get back in shape. It's just an idea and would definitely need way more thought than I will admit I want to put into it.
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On July 05 2020 04:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 04:29 JimmiC wrote:On July 05 2020 03:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
It doesn't have to be military only. There's the Peace Corps as well. A mandatory public service initiative, say 18 months, would do good for people to be able to see the "real world" and hopefully enlighten them beyond the bubble they've grown up in. I joined the Marines voluntarily because I didn't have a direction (still don't). But the lessons I learned are still with me and shaped me a little bit. Being able to see parts of the world and hear stories from those who've gone further mentally and physically was inspiring.
But I don't agree with marketing or mandatory service. It should be completely voluntary to join the military. But I will cosign a mandatory public service initiative of some kind.
@ JimmiC: Probably ours? I'm early thirties. LOL definitely not! Gen Z and Gen Y do not think millennial's have respect for their elders or have drive. Mandatory service is somewhat easy to put in because basically all the voters who decide will be too old to have to do it Well I meant Gen X into our generation. I agree with you on a broad scale about the millenials.
Depending on how early you are in your thirties, you might just be a Millenial.
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On July 05 2020 05:05 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 04:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 03:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
It doesn't have to be military only. There's the Peace Corps as well. A mandatory public service initiative, say 18 months, would do good for people to be able to see the "real world" and hopefully enlighten them beyond the bubble they've grown up in. I joined the Marines voluntarily because I didn't have a direction (still don't). But the lessons I learned are still with me and shaped me a little bit. Being able to see parts of the world and hear stories from those who've gone further mentally and physically was inspiring.
But I don't agree with marketing or mandatory service. It should be completely voluntary to join the military. But I will cosign a mandatory public service initiative of some kind.
@ JimmiC: Probably ours? I'm early thirties. For some people, 18 months lost at age 18 is a complete disaster. I know it certainly would have been for me. If you do anything that is very competitive and where your age really matters, you absolutely can't afford to lose 18 months. @Mohdoo that makes an awful lot if sense, even though it's pretty sad. Anti-intellectualism at its most crass... I like Nouar solution of a 3 months service. You don't completely screw people who are on a race against age and it doesn't cost the nation an absolute fortune. The problem with 3 months of service is that it is pointless. The whole point of a public service is to provide some service to society. But in any job, you need some training and some effort by people who know what they are doing before you start becoming useful. I think that quite often, you actually provide negative worktime for a month or two, simply because it takes time from experienced workers to teach you. If you are only there for three months, i think the place you are at might work more efficiently if you were never there in the first place. Furthermore, this leads to a situation where you have this three-months phase where everyone is overrun by 18 year olds doing their three months service after school, followed by 9 months of none of them being around. I cannot see how that is effective either. I guess you can have them do inventory, clean up some trash, or something like that. But that is hardly an efficient service to society.
Yeah I understand. But I know that when they abolished the service in France, the military complained that they absolutely didn't need those kids, that one year was not enough to have them being useful whatsoever, and that it was not the army's job to educate kids. So the problem is kind of the same, no?
On a totally useless side note, my dad did his service in the navy and was affected as junior officer. He got to loath marine officers (they are pretty hardcore in France) and the hierarchy on ships so much that he asked to get demoted simple crewman. The fellow officers thought he was raving mad and sent him to the navy psychologists, who concluded he was not dangerous. So he became crewman and learnt to loath crewmen too. He basically hates everyone since.
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This is sounding increasingly like just expanding UNICOR.
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On July 05 2020 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
If you do it like with Korean e-sports, then those in high competitive areas can get a waiver. And it doesn't have to be all at once. There are times where your season is over and you can use that time to to do your service. When your season is about to begin, you can go back and train to get back in shape. It's just an idea and would definitely need way more thought than I will admit I want to put into it.
Yeah, but you would require a mountain of work to deal with all the particular cases.
Say, you got a kid who is a chess prodigy and where every week of study count, or a ballet dancer who has ten years before retirement in a cut throat environment, or, as I was, a musician whose absolute golden years to learn are 18 to 23 years old and you have as many situations that require someone to look into and are an administrative nightmare to deal with. Unless you decide to just screw them all because who cares, but that's not quite fair imo.
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On July 05 2020 05:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
If you do it like with Korean e-sports, then those in high competitive areas can get a waiver. And it doesn't have to be all at once. There are times where your season is over and you can use that time to to do your service. When your season is about to begin, you can go back and train to get back in shape. It's just an idea and would definitely need way more thought than I will admit I want to put into it.
A better idea, perhaps, is to give everyone an indefinite waiver on said unnecessary "service." The upside is questionable and the downside is ubiquitous.
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On July 05 2020 05:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2020 05:05 Simberto wrote:On July 05 2020 04:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 05 2020 03:58 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
It doesn't have to be military only. There's the Peace Corps as well. A mandatory public service initiative, say 18 months, would do good for people to be able to see the "real world" and hopefully enlighten them beyond the bubble they've grown up in. I joined the Marines voluntarily because I didn't have a direction (still don't). But the lessons I learned are still with me and shaped me a little bit. Being able to see parts of the world and hear stories from those who've gone further mentally and physically was inspiring.
But I don't agree with marketing or mandatory service. It should be completely voluntary to join the military. But I will cosign a mandatory public service initiative of some kind.
@ JimmiC: Probably ours? I'm early thirties. For some people, 18 months lost at age 18 is a complete disaster. I know it certainly would have been for me. If you do anything that is very competitive and where your age really matters, you absolutely can't afford to lose 18 months. @Mohdoo that makes an awful lot if sense, even though it's pretty sad. Anti-intellectualism at its most crass... I like Nouar solution of a 3 months service. You don't completely screw people who are on a race against age and it doesn't cost the nation an absolute fortune. The problem with 3 months of service is that it is pointless. The whole point of a public service is to provide some service to society. But in any job, you need some training and some effort by people who know what they are doing before you start becoming useful. I think that quite often, you actually provide negative worktime for a month or two, simply because it takes time from experienced workers to teach you. If you are only there for three months, i think the place you are at might work more efficiently if you were never there in the first place. Furthermore, this leads to a situation where you have this three-months phase where everyone is overrun by 18 year olds doing their three months service after school, followed by 9 months of none of them being around. I cannot see how that is effective either. I guess you can have them do inventory, clean up some trash, or something like that. But that is hardly an efficient service to society. Yeah I understand. But I know that when they abolished the service in France, the military complained that they absolutely didn't need those kids, that one year was not enough to have them being useful whatsoever, and that it was not the army's job to educate kids. So the problem is kind of the same, no? On a totally useless side note, my dad did his service in the navy and was affected as junior officer. He got to loath marine officers (they are pretty hardcore in France) and the hierarchy on ships so much that he asked to get demoted simple crewman. The fellow officers thought he was raving mad and sent him to the navy psychologists, who concluded he was not dangerous. So he became crewman and learnt to loath crewmen too. He basically hates everyone since.
So don't have pointless service at all. If you decide that every youth needs some kind of education which they don't get in school, set up some education for them. Having a service with the perceived goal of helping society, but which is actually a net negative to society sounds stupid and dishonest.
I personally don't think that that is what they need.
With regards to Nouar, yes, i understand that not everyone in the military is a frontline person doing in-person killing. The main purpose of the military, however, is that killing (or at least threatening with the ability to do the killing). So you have people doing the killing, and people supporting the people doing the killing to make the killing work more efficiently. And that is fine. We as a society have decided that we need such an organization, and that is probably true.
I just don't think that that organisation should also have a secondary function in education. Educate the people you need to do the job as efficiently as possible. But i find it really strange to think that the military should also educate everyone who finishes school. And according to Biff, the military sees this the same way i do.
If the problem is school dropouts having problems integrating into society, then i can think of a dozen better ways of handling that rather than forcing everyone to go through the military after school and waste a year of their lives.
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EPT
