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On May 16 2018 05:19 Plansix wrote:
It was a lot easier to be Israel’s ally when they were the underdogs in the region and could exist side by side with Palestinians. But that seems like forever ago at this point.
when was that [side by side existence]? I don't recall there ever being such a point in time. (after israel's creation).
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It's pretty safe to say they see themselves as distinct from other human beings, "chosen" etc.
Seems like a guaranteed way to behave shitty to other cultures as well as get pummeled every century or so. Which is exactly what tends to happen.
Right now practically no one apart from the US military industrial complex likes Israel and they've had the entire world on their side by default just a couple decades ago.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 16 2018 05:24 Kickboxer wrote:
It's pretty safe to say they see themselves as distinct from other human beings, "chosen" etc.
Seems like a guaranteed way to behave shitty to other cultures as well as get pummeled every century or so. Which is exactly what tends to happen.
Right now practically no one apart from the US military industrial complex likes Israel and they've had the entire world on their side by default just a couple decades ago.
Got it, anti-semitism confirmed.
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To me this essentially kind of boils down to do the ends (the continued existence and security of the Jewish state) justify the means (the killing of unarmed civilians).
I get that Israel is under threat, and that there's the collective psychological scar from the Holocaust and a long history of persecution, but at some point Israel needs to look at itself and ask "are we the baddies?"
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Given how readily some attribute the recent actions of Israel to the essence of Judaism, it seems clear that there are plenty of baddies all around.
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On May 16 2018 05:21 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 05:19 Plansix wrote:
It was a lot easier to be Israel’s ally when they were the underdogs in the region and could exist side by side with Palestinians. But that seems like forever ago at this point. when was that [side by side existence]? I don't recall there ever being such a point in time. (after israel's creation).
1970 through the late 1990s was a time of more peaceful coexistence. There were horrible bombing and other terrorist attacks, but the checkpoints and movement restrictions had not become what they are today. Outside influences on the Palestinians from groups wanting to use Palestinians as a proxy to remove Israel and Isreal’s own hardliners took slowly drove both sides to where we are today.
Edit: lol some good old fashion anti Semitism. Religion 101 covers the chosen people not being code for “superior”.
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At one point you have to call a spade a spade. I don't understand how not criticizing terrible behavior makes for some kind of moral pedestal.
Both the Jews and the Arabs have a lot of serious work to do on their own mentalities and outlooks or they will, in my very humble opinion, get hammered in the coming century. Not to mention cause trouble for the rest of us.
As for the current events, zero of the violence is justified. There's never a good reason to punch a baby in the face.
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On May 16 2018 05:05 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The more I read, the more I wonder, who decided that the opening date of already inflammatory opening of a new US embassy to Jerusalem, would be on Nakba Day, a day when palestinians would traditionally remember their loss and protest? I can only imagine whoever decided that this was appropriate, on both the US and Isreali side, decided on purpose to open the embassy on this day to deliberately insult the palestinians and to mercilessly mock them for their complete lack of power in the face of ethnic cleansing.
Let's all read something terrible into everything Israel does rather than look for the obvious answers.
On Monday, which marked the 70th anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel, US and Israeli leaders hailed the embassy move as a sign of the enduring relationship between the two countries and of US trustworthiness.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/14/politics/jerusalem-us-embassy-trump-intl/index.html
70th anniversary of the founding of Israel.
Then we get to what Nakba Day is.
Nakba Day (Arabic: يوم النكبة Yawm an-Nakba, meaning "Day of the Catastrophe") is generally commemorated on 15 May, the day after the Gregorian calendar date for Israeli Independence Day (Yom Ha'atzmaut). For the Palestinians it is an annual day of commemoration of the displacement that preceded and followed the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948.[1]
The day was inaugurated by Yasser Arafat in 1998.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day
A day with a huge historical significance of... 20 years, which is specifically a protest against the founding of Israel.
Do you think the media may have manipulated you?
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On May 16 2018 05:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 05:21 zlefin wrote:On May 16 2018 05:19 Plansix wrote:
It was a lot easier to be Israel’s ally when they were the underdogs in the region and could exist side by side with Palestinians. But that seems like forever ago at this point. when was that [side by side existence]? I don't recall there ever being such a point in time. (after israel's creation). 1970 through the late 1990s was a time of more peaceful coexistence. There were horrible bombing and other terrorist attacks, but the checkpoints and movement restrictions had not become what they are today. Outside influences on the Palestinians from groups wanting to use Palestinians as a proxy to remove Israel and Isreal’s own hardliners took slowly drove both sides to where we are today. Edit: lol some good old fashion anti Semitism. Religion 101 covers the chosen people not being code for “superior”.
you're including the time of the first intifada, why? not too familiar on the details but it sounds odd to include that time;
and what about the PLO and other related orgs aways earlier?
I suppose it would qualify as "more peaceful coexistence", but it still sounds fairly unpeaceful. and it doesn't sound like them existing side by side with palestinians so much.
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On May 16 2018 05:36 Kickboxer wrote:
At one point you have to call a spade a spade. I don't understand how not criticizing terrible behavior makes for some kind of moral pedestal.
Criticizing the actions of the far right government of Israel: justified.
Using the actions of the far right government of Israel to criticize Jews and judaism in general, as you were doing: unjustified, and very easy to link to antisemitism.
People are doing what you want. They're calling a spade a spade.
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On May 16 2018 05:36 Kickboxer wrote:
At one point you have to call a spade a spade. I don't understand how not criticizing terrible behavior makes for some kind of moral pedestal.
Both the Jews and the Arabs have a lot of serious work to do on their own mentalities and outlooks or they will, in my very humble opinion, get hammered in the coming century. Not to mention cause trouble for the rest of us.
As for the current events, zero of the violence is justified. There's never a good reason to punch a baby in the face.
Religions and ethnicities are not playing card suits, they're broad categories of identity that cover vast ground and require significant qualification whenever used as a basis for ascribing traits to millions of people both living and dead. "Israel is doing awful things, must be their Jewishness making them do them" is cowardly, stupid, and precisely what extremists on all sides want.
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On May 16 2018 05:24 Kickboxer wrote:
It's pretty safe to say they see themselves as distinct from other human beings, "chosen" etc.
Seems like a guaranteed way to behave shitty to other cultures as well as get pummeled every century or so. Which is exactly what tends to happen.
Right now practically no one apart from the US military industrial complex likes Israel and they've had the entire world on their side by default just a couple decades ago.
Don't be anti-semitic, buddy.
Some not-insignificant portion of Jewish Israelis just think of themselves as "exceptional" kind of like the "supreme master race" in the US tends to do.
I'm thinking there's probably some cultural feedback problems that exist everywhere to get people in these kinds of moods.
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On May 16 2018 05:40 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 05:30 Plansix wrote:On May 16 2018 05:21 zlefin wrote:On May 16 2018 05:19 Plansix wrote:
It was a lot easier to be Israel’s ally when they were the underdogs in the region and could exist side by side with Palestinians. But that seems like forever ago at this point. when was that [side by side existence]? I don't recall there ever being such a point in time. (after israel's creation). 1970 through the late 1990s was a time of more peaceful coexistence. There were horrible bombing and other terrorist attacks, but the checkpoints and movement restrictions had not become what they are today. Outside influences on the Palestinians from groups wanting to use Palestinians as a proxy to remove Israel and Isreal’s own hardliners took slowly drove both sides to where we are today. Edit: lol some good old fashion anti Semitism. Religion 101 covers the chosen people not being code for “superior”. you're including the time of the first intifada, why? not too familiar on the details but it sounds odd to include that time; and what about the PLO and other related orgs aways earlier? I suppose it would qualify as "more peaceful coexistence", but it still sounds fairly unpeaceful. and it doesn't sound like them existing side by side with palestinians so much.
Nothing about that nation is specific peaceful. Its entire existence is surrounded by conflict. But there were times where peaceful co-existence and governance seemed obtainable.
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On May 16 2018 05:40 RenSC2 wrote:
Do you think the media may have manipulated you?
It's not the first time I've heard this. Why is that? Is there some reason why the media suddenly hates Israel in this theory?
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Looks like another head of the dumb hydra named "fake news" to me 
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On May 16 2018 05:40 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 05:05 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The more I read, the more I wonder, who decided that the opening date of already inflammatory opening of a new US embassy to Jerusalem, would be on Nakba Day, a day when palestinians would traditionally remember their loss and protest? I can only imagine whoever decided that this was appropriate, on both the US and Isreali side, decided on purpose to open the embassy on this day to deliberately insult the palestinians and to mercilessly mock them for their complete lack of power in the face of ethnic cleansing. Let's all read something terrible into everything Israel does rather than look for the obvious answers. Show nested quote +On Monday, which marked the 70th anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel, US and Israeli leaders hailed the embassy move as a sign of the enduring relationship between the two countries and of US trustworthiness. https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/14/politics/jerusalem-us-embassy-trump-intl/index.html70th anniversary of the founding of Israel. Then we get to what Nakba Day is. Show nested quote +Nakba Day (Arabic: يوم النكبة Yawm an-Nakba, meaning "Day of the Catastrophe") is generally commemorated on 15 May, the day after the Gregorian calendar date for Israeli Independence Day (Yom Ha'atzmaut). For the Palestinians it is an annual day of commemoration of the displacement that preceded and followed the Israeli Declaration of Independence in 1948.[1]
The day was inaugurated by Yasser Arafat in 1998. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_DayA day with a huge historical significance of... 20 years, which is specifically a protest against the founding of Israel. Do you think the media may have manipulated you? That is good additional information, thanks. So...the date was certainly chosen deliberately.
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On May 16 2018 05:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 05:40 RenSC2 wrote:
Do you think the media may have manipulated you? It's not the first time I've heard this. Why is that? Is there some reason why the media suddenly hates Israel in this theory?
I mean even the most critical mainstream outlets are referring to the massacring of Palestinians as a 'clashes' and 'violent protests' and most headline their pieces as if the Palestinians killed and injured are a 'whodunit' mystery.
Any criticism of Israel and the US is happening despite the media, not encouraged or manipulated by it (other than liberals that want to put all this at Trump's feet)
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On May 16 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 05:40 zlefin wrote:On May 16 2018 05:30 Plansix wrote:On May 16 2018 05:21 zlefin wrote:On May 16 2018 05:19 Plansix wrote:
It was a lot easier to be Israel’s ally when they were the underdogs in the region and could exist side by side with Palestinians. But that seems like forever ago at this point. when was that [side by side existence]? I don't recall there ever being such a point in time. (after israel's creation). 1970 through the late 1990s was a time of more peaceful coexistence. There were horrible bombing and other terrorist attacks, but the checkpoints and movement restrictions had not become what they are today. Outside influences on the Palestinians from groups wanting to use Palestinians as a proxy to remove Israel and Isreal’s own hardliners took slowly drove both sides to where we are today. Edit: lol some good old fashion anti Semitism. Religion 101 covers the chosen people not being code for “superior”. you're including the time of the first intifada, why? not too familiar on the details but it sounds odd to include that time; and what about the PLO and other related orgs aways earlier? I suppose it would qualify as "more peaceful coexistence", but it still sounds fairly unpeaceful. and it doesn't sound like them existing side by side with palestinians so much. Nothing about that nation is specific peaceful. Its entire existence is surrounded by conflict. But there were times where peaceful co-existence and governance seemed obtainable.
I wonder if that seeming was an illusion, or if it really was potentially attainable at that time. it's hard to tell the difference between such things, as sometimes issues are glossed and not being talked about, but are strongly simmering below the surface.
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On May 16 2018 05:53 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:On May 16 2018 05:40 zlefin wrote:On May 16 2018 05:30 Plansix wrote:On May 16 2018 05:21 zlefin wrote:On May 16 2018 05:19 Plansix wrote:
It was a lot easier to be Israel’s ally when they were the underdogs in the region and could exist side by side with Palestinians. But that seems like forever ago at this point. when was that [side by side existence]? I don't recall there ever being such a point in time. (after israel's creation). 1970 through the late 1990s was a time of more peaceful coexistence. There were horrible bombing and other terrorist attacks, but the checkpoints and movement restrictions had not become what they are today. Outside influences on the Palestinians from groups wanting to use Palestinians as a proxy to remove Israel and Isreal’s own hardliners took slowly drove both sides to where we are today. Edit: lol some good old fashion anti Semitism. Religion 101 covers the chosen people not being code for “superior”. you're including the time of the first intifada, why? not too familiar on the details but it sounds odd to include that time; and what about the PLO and other related orgs aways earlier? I suppose it would qualify as "more peaceful coexistence", but it still sounds fairly unpeaceful. and it doesn't sound like them existing side by side with palestinians so much. Nothing about that nation is specific peaceful. Its entire existence is surrounded by conflict. But there were times where peaceful co-existence and governance seemed obtainable. I wonder if that seeming was an illusion, or if it really was potentially attainable at that time. it's hard to tell the difference between such things, as sometimes issues are glossed and not being talked about, but are strongly simmering below the surface.
Hindsight is 20/20. It seemed possible that people could get beyond that and move forward.
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Who are these liberals you keep refering to GH? I don't think this is an liberal vs illiberal issue.
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EPT
