EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 204
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Broetchenholer
Germany1924 Posts
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dicey
142 Posts
On May 16 2018 07:03 Nebuchad wrote: Is everyone okay with that happening? Where are the disgruntled journalists disgusted that we're feeding the flames of antisemitism to make money? Perhaps more importantly, I'm sure you have also noticed a raise in anti-muslim sentiment in Europe over the last decade or two. What do you think would sell more in Europe these days, inflammatory information against Israel or inflammatory information against the muslims they're fighting? woah woah woah, hold your horses there. Don't mix up more or less unrelated issues. 1) Europe's anti-fundamentalism. Please go back to media reporting (one with journalist standards, not RT, Twitter or FB) on the last election in Israel. What you'll see is a lot of cautionary tales across the isles of how bad for the temporary ceasefires (Syria being the obvious exception) the new coalition of conservatives and ultra-orthodox might turn out to be. A lot of pundits refer to this and how fundamentalism and black&white thinking (see Netanyahu's powerpoint for Trump) regardless of creed ends up in violence 2) Anti-muslim and anti-semitic stances and the media in Europe. As with everything, you have to take things on a case by case basis if you want to discuss details. Uptick in antimuslim/antisemtic violence or a larger one in the other is not the real matter seeing how vocal violence and tendencies to dehumanise are going up, while violence by and large is going down -- at least for Germany (https://bit.ly/2In7SGR). As is I can't really answer your question and believe it's not at all the real issue, there is the undertone of conspiracy of the one side vs the other in it --and what's being read&sold accordingly-- which I contest 100%. 3) Anti-semitic, anti-zionist, and again to the above ( 1) ) For the past year or two, thanks to the alt-right as well as majority parties drifting noticeably into traditionalist and fundamentalist positions (almost every German party, the Tories, partially true for Macron's En Marche, PiS in Poland and Orban's Fidesz close to openly and officially racist) there has been a lot of name-calling going around. One maybe unexpected one was imported from the US, of labelling each and every critique of Israel antisemitic. This was usually the term used by centrists and the left to identify and shun a) attitudes favouring racism, even if rather harmless compared to how opinions are voiced outside of Europe b) create, hopefully, a culture of acceptance and tolerance (educational standards pertaining to this in Italy, Germany and France are pretty high and remarkably differentiated) and (I believe) c) markedly call out people for being possibly too lazy or stupid or disgruntled with the world to see that isolationist (or otherwise fundamentalist) stances in the absolute majority of cases create way more problems, usually of historic proportions, than they attempt to solve. Other than for internal reasons/internal politics, why would you want to be part of the club of "we know it best"-countries (our way is the only way) like Iran, Cuba or North Korea? And this is where "antisemtic" gets, now, thrown around a lot in the highest media fanfare. People on the other side of the political spectrum look to discredit, for example, Labour/Corbyn for antisemitic remarks -- while anti-Zionist or simply being anti-Netanyahu would be far more fitting a description: While knowing that the left will debate this on a likely time-consuming and fundamental level hoping to ensure and streamline the standards they hold themselves accountable to, the standards of the rest don't really matter. Because populism works again, looking decisive is more important than knowing what one is actually decidedly for, and hate and scaremongering are back in the toolkit of political tools. tl;dr: antisemitic more often a misnomer for being against the extreme ideology policy of the current Knesset. Domestic politics done at the expense of others. Socialdemocrats and the left put in the position to defend status quo,international trade and being rarely politically incorrect, even though criticising these used to be their own strong agenda items..while the rest is off defending diffuse "values", sword, shiny shield and tabloid in hand. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
I was presented with the notion that the european media is biased against Israel. Now I know that this isn't the case, but I was presented with a rational reason for why that would be the case (because antisemitism helps with the sales in Europe these days). I could just say that his analysis is wrong and european media isn't doing what he thinks, because it's not, but there's no reason why me saying that would be convincing in any way; attacking the shaky rationalization for why the media would be doing that might work better. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On May 16 2018 19:31 Broetchenholer wrote: The case of Elor Azaria is really sickening. There you have a medic who, on camera if i recall, comes to a bleeding out enemy combatant. That men was down for 15 minutes and instead of helping him as he should, he kills him by headshot. Now he got convicted and sentenced 18 months in prison. Which is laughable anyway, but he only has to serve 9 months. And that was already too long for Netanjahu. If a society has gone to the point where consciously taking the life of another human is punished by 9 months in prison, there is something wrong with that. Even in the states a cop would have been convicted of murder for that. I think the US should clear a state of Americans and bring all Israelis there. I nthe end, we all know America is the chosen land of god. Not their god, but maybe any god will suffice. Maybe Utah, that is blessed twice, once for being in America and once specially by the mormons. American cops get away with flat-out murdering people all the time. Some don't even get fired. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
Yep: https://www.theroot.com/kansas-finally-bans-cops-from-forcing-suspects-to-have-1826055624 It begins with Lamont McIntyre, a black Kansas City, Kan., man who was imprisoned at the age of 17 for committing a double murder. Despite there being no physical evidence, no murder weapon, and no connection between the suspect and the murder victims, McIntyre spent more than two decades in prison before he was finally released. McIntyre was awarded a grand total of zero dollars when he was finally freed. So why was he in jail so long? It turns out that the lead investigator in McIntyre’s case was a cop named Roger Golubski who worked as a law enforcement officer for 30 years before retiring recently. A few years before the murder, Golubski allegedly forced a woman to have oral sex with him during a traffic stop (which, at the time, was perfectly legal). After the incident, the woman said that she refused Golubski’s advances and that he threatened to retaliate against her and her family. That woman’s name was Rosie McIntyre, Lamont’s mother. Rosie McIntyre tried to explain to prosecutors that Golubski was targeting her son, but the prosecutor wouldn’t listen. In this specific case, I can’t even say that it was because the prosecutors were racist because evidence later showed that the judge in the case was engaged in a sexual relationship with the prosecutor at the time. Also, they were probably racist. After Lamont McIntyre’s defense team revealed this secret to the public, at least eight more women, mostly poor and black, came forward to say that Golubski had forced them to have sex with him. A former FBI investigator eventually issued a report indicating, “The Kansas City, Kan., Police Department (KCKPD) tended to protect the wrongdoers. ... These women complied with his demands because they knew they would be arrested if they said no.” Twenty-four years later, Judge J. Dexter Burdett, who is accused of having had sex with the woman who prosecuted McIntyre’s case, still sits on the bench as a district judge. Court records show that prosecutor Terra Morehead threatened to take the children away from a witness in McIntyre’s case after the witness told her that McIntyre was not the killer. Terra Morehead now works as a U.S. attorney. Meanwhile, Roger Golubski retired after 30 years of service with his full pension. He has not been charged or convicted of his alleged crimes, although the Kansas Bureau of Investigation is looking into the allegations, according to the Kansas City Star. So how did Kansas lawmakers handle the notion that a corrupt cop had framed an innocent man and extorted black women for sexual favors? How did the state’s powerful politicians decide to address the issue that a judge who should have recused himself from the case sentenced an innocent man to life in prison? How would the legislators compensate the McIntyre family for this terrible tragedy? They passed a law outlawing cops from having sex with arrestees. See? They fixed it. We'll see if he gets charged and convicted of anything, I guess. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1924 Posts
I mean, this is the video: + Show Spoiler + This man would be charged with murder in the US. There is no question in that regard. He is one of a bazillion people on the scene, that, after 11 minutes of the palestinian lying there in the dirt not moving a muscle, takes his MP from the shoulder, takes off the security, aims at the head and shoots him. There is no arguing here and the jurisdiction knew that and sentenced him according to the law. Problem was just, that the prosecution was not going for murder and that after the sentence, the politics cut the term even shorter. I would argue that this would have been murder in the US as well as there is absolutely no ambiguity left in the case. Imagine Charlotteville if that was the video public for it. Edit: spoilered the video as i was unaware it would automatically embed it. | ||
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dicey
142 Posts
https://news.sky.com/story/israeli-jailed-for-18-months-for-shooting-dead-wounded-palestinian-attacker-10776259 This crosses a lot of lines/limits, regardless of the victim being openly violent before this..... And Azaria even is a combat medic and he shot a man to death in cold blood, wtf. How the hell can one still call that a functioning court, or state, for that matter edit: "one" instead of "you", wasn't ad hominem | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On May 16 2018 22:48 Broetchenholer wrote: Yeah, i know American Police gets away from charges on account of being scared for their lives all the time, but this is something else. I mean, this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFkq4wJ9yn8 This man would be charged with murder in the US. There is no question in that regard. He is one of a bazillion people on the scene, that, after 11 minutes of the palestinian lying there in the dirt not moving a muscle, takes his MP from the shoulder, takes off the security, aims at the head and shoots him. There is no arguing here and the jurisdiction knew that and sentenced him according to the law. Problem was just, that the prosecution was not going for murder and that after the sentence, the politics cut the term even shorter. I would argue that this would have been murder in the US as well as there is absolutely no ambiguity left in the case. Imagine Charlotteville if that was the video public for it. can you please put the video in a spoiler? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9646 Posts
On May 16 2018 23:06 dicey wrote: I couldn't believe the video as it stood (even though pixelated still GRAPHIC! ), but here's the link to where it was published (don't want to say 'in full' but longer). https://news.sky.com/story/israeli-jailed-for-18-months-for-shooting-dead-wounded-palestinian-attacker-10776259 This crosses a lot of lines/limits, regardless of the victim being openly violent before this..... How the hell can you still call that a functioning court, or state, for that matter The state functions on the basis that Palestinians are not human, and therefore not afforded the same rights as other humans. You'd probably get a similar sentence for killing your next door neighbour's cat. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 16 2018 23:06 dicey wrote: I couldn't believe the video as it stood (even though pixelated still GRAPHIC! ), but here's the link to where it was published (don't want to say 'in full' but longer). https://news.sky.com/story/israeli-jailed-for-18-months-for-shooting-dead-wounded-palestinian-attacker-10776259 This crosses a lot of lines/limits, regardless of the victim being openly violent before this..... How the hell can you still call that a functioning court, or state, for that matter because "functioning" isn't an on/off toggle; but a matter of degree. and where along that continuum you call "functioning" could be put in a lot of places. it's also somewhat a comparative term rather than an absolute one. though really you should ask the person who said it; not sure who that is, maybe I missed their post. | ||
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dicey
142 Posts
On May 16 2018 23:13 zlefin wrote: because "functioning" isn't an on/off toggle; but a matter of degree. and where along that continuum you call "functioning" could be put in a lot of places. it's also somewhat a comparative term rather than an absolute one. though really you should ask the person who said it; not sure who that is, maybe I missed their post. Sorry, it was more or less rhetorical a question (however, democracy index-wise Israel 2017 stands on par with Italy, France, Belgium..the US.. yeah I know it's rubbish scoring, still). Ffs with all that sh!t coming out of the white house news like these -- even though I've seen some coverage before the verdict -- goes under. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 16 2018 23:23 dicey wrote: Sorry, it was more or less rhetorical a question (however, democracy index-wise Israel 2017 stands on par with Italy, France, Belgium..the US.. yeah I know it's rubbish scoring, still). Ffs with all that sh!t coming out of the white house news like these -- even though I've seen some coverage before the verdict -- goes under. what'w wrong with their democracy scoring? it's seemed pretty decent when I looked at it last | ||
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dicey
142 Posts
According to https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/04/israeli-soldier-guilty-manslaughter-shooting-palestinian-elor-azaria-abdel-fattah-al-sharif it led to "...[divisions] between the Israeli military’s most senior officers – who pushed for the prosecution – and nationalist political figures, who have campaigned for Azaria’s acquittal." When the military has to put the foot on the break and tell government that they stand to lose legitimacy if they're too lenient/too partisan (and 'partisan' barely describes what it is).. well that doesn't sound like civil liberty at its best /cynical/ to me. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 16 2018 23:47 dicey wrote: (amid a lot of other crap) Politicians openly influencing sentencing... According to https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/04/israeli-soldier-guilty-manslaughter-shooting-palestinian-elor-azaria-abdel-fattah-al-sharif it led to "...[divisions] between the Israeli military’s most senior officers – who pushed for the prosecution – and nationalist political figures, who have campaigned for Azaria’s acquittal." When the military has to put the foot on the break and tell government that they stand to lose legitimacy if they're too lenient/too partisan (and 'partisan' barely describes what it is).. well that doesn't sound like civil liberty at its best /cynical/ to me. were you responding to my query or simply making a point independently? | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On May 16 2018 03:00 Nebuchad wrote: While we're discussing the meaning of genocide here's an IDF account discussing the meaning of weapon of terror 2018 is like the death of parody accounts, they're completely useless now. + Show Spoiler + Is this really the official Twitter of the IDF...? That's one of the most pathetic excuse for a massacre. They cannot defend against this "weapons of terror" especially children and elderly without murdering them? The protest should be dealt with the least casualties, are there no non-lethal technology that could break apart this protests or is it just easier to kill the protesters? Israeli army needs a new reform, a doctrine for when to use live ammunition in this kind of situations. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 17 2018 00:53 raga4ka wrote: Is this really the official Twitter of the IDF...? That's one of the most pathetic excuse for a massacre. They cannot defend against this "weapons of terror" especially children and elderly without murdering them? The protest should be dealt with the least casualties, are there no non-lethal technology that could break apart this protests or is it just easier to kill the protesters? Israeli army needs a new reform, a doctrine for when to use live ammunition in this kind of situations. They kill (and mutilate! because their snipers deliberately target knees) on purpose, they know there will be impunity since the USA is to them what Russia is to Assad | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
While there is clear proof that the Trump camp was willing to collude, so far There’s no evidence to show they were successful. Bribes and greed are probably much easier to pull off. And bribes are a high crime. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15686 Posts
On May 17 2018 00:53 raga4ka wrote: Is this really the official Twitter of the IDF...? That's one of the most pathetic excuse for a massacre. They cannot defend against this "weapons of terror" especially children and elderly without murdering them? The protest should be dealt with the least casualties, are there no non-lethal technology that could break apart this protests or is it just easier to kill the protesters? Israeli army needs a new reform, a doctrine for when to use live ammunition in this kind of situations. Yeah I honestly can't tell if that account is satire or not. Utterly fucked up if not. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
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