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On September 17 2019 11:55 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 10:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2019 09:08 Gahlo wrote:On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. On September 17 2019 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2019 06:07 RenSC2 wrote:On September 17 2019 05:57 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 05:55 RenSC2 wrote:
One thing about "white culture". A lot of white people in America don't really know their history either. Some can't even tell you where their last name originates. To them, they consider themselves generic "white", not English or German or French or whatever. So, rather than link themselves to a specific European country, they instead link themselves Europe in general. Thus you get "European culture" or "white culture". Not surprisingly, it comes from ignorance, but perhaps not the type of ignorance that is being blamed. If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it. I know you can't speak for Mohdoo but your interpretation/explanation is the right-wing talking point about immigrants I was referencing. If the argument was that they should be citizens then it'd be notably different, but if the argument is "we need less immigrants" it's the same type of garbage imo. It's more the the H1B's employment requirement means holders can be forced into worse situations be employers because they hold more cards over the H1B worker than citizen/greencarders. That leverage is then also used against those with more stable situations. The problem there isn't the H1B holder.
I know the problem isn't the H1B holder. That doesn't really address the concern about whether it's a call for less immigrants or better rights/treatment for immigrants though.
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On September 17 2019 12:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 11:55 Gahlo wrote:On September 17 2019 10:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2019 09:08 Gahlo wrote:On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. On September 17 2019 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2019 06:07 RenSC2 wrote:On September 17 2019 05:57 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 05:55 RenSC2 wrote:
One thing about "white culture". A lot of white people in America don't really know their history either. Some can't even tell you where their last name originates. To them, they consider themselves generic "white", not English or German or French or whatever. So, rather than link themselves to a specific European country, they instead link themselves Europe in general. Thus you get "European culture" or "white culture". Not surprisingly, it comes from ignorance, but perhaps not the type of ignorance that is being blamed. If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it. I know you can't speak for Mohdoo but your interpretation/explanation is the right-wing talking point about immigrants I was referencing. If the argument was that they should be citizens then it'd be notably different, but if the argument is "we need less immigrants" it's the same type of garbage imo. It's more the the H1B's employment requirement means holders can be forced into worse situations be employers because they hold more cards over the H1B worker than citizen/greencarders. That leverage is then also used against those with more stable situations. The problem there isn't the H1B holder. I know the problem isn't the H1B holder. That doesn't really address the concern about whether it's a call for less immigrants or better rights/treatment for immigrants though.
The truth is if you call for better rights/treatment for immigrants you're going to have less demand for work based immigration. A huge reason for it is just to be exploited legally
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On September 17 2019 13:15 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 12:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2019 11:55 Gahlo wrote:On September 17 2019 10:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 17 2019 09:08 Gahlo wrote:On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. On September 17 2019 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2019 06:07 RenSC2 wrote:On September 17 2019 05:57 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 05:55 RenSC2 wrote:
One thing about "white culture". A lot of white people in America don't really know their history either. Some can't even tell you where their last name originates. To them, they consider themselves generic "white", not English or German or French or whatever. So, rather than link themselves to a specific European country, they instead link themselves Europe in general. Thus you get "European culture" or "white culture". Not surprisingly, it comes from ignorance, but perhaps not the type of ignorance that is being blamed. If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it. I know you can't speak for Mohdoo but your interpretation/explanation is the right-wing talking point about immigrants I was referencing. If the argument was that they should be citizens then it'd be notably different, but if the argument is "we need less immigrants" it's the same type of garbage imo. It's more the the H1B's employment requirement means holders can be forced into worse situations be employers because they hold more cards over the H1B worker than citizen/greencarders. That leverage is then also used against those with more stable situations. The problem there isn't the H1B holder. I know the problem isn't the H1B holder. That doesn't really address the concern about whether it's a call for less immigrants or better rights/treatment for immigrants though. The truth is if you call for better rights/treatment for immigrants you're going to have less demand for work based immigration. A huge reason for it is just to be exploited legally
Calling for better rights and treatments for tech workers, especially those on H1Bs, is still notably different than calling for a reduction in H1B visas though is the point.
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The new allegations over Kavanaugh published in the NYT had a rather important editor's note added. "...the Times revised the story to add that the book reported that the woman supposedly involved in the incident declined to be interviewed, and that her friends say she doesn’t recall the incident. While an editor’s note pointed out the revision, it did not say why those facts had been left out in the first place." WaPo had their doubts over the story as well when they had it on their table a year ago, so they didn't go with it.
The op-ed itself is an excerpt from a book by two NYT reporters, so I'm curious if there was some miscommunication or a hasty reading without a full context which was published first.
https://apnews.com/b166b4bf4698411eaf2a13fdf2d4bd9c
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On September 17 2019 14:33 PhoenixVoid wrote:The new allegations over Kavanaugh published in the NYT had a rather important editor's note added. "...the Times revised the story to add that the book reported that the woman supposedly involved in the incident declined to be interviewed, and that her friends say she doesn’t recall the incident. While an editor’s note pointed out the revision, it did not say why those facts had been left out in the first place." WaPo had their doubts over the story as well when they had it on their table a year ago, so they didn't go with it. The op-ed itself is an excerpt from a book by two NYT reporters, so I'm curious if there was some miscommunication or a hasty reading without a full context which was published first. https://apnews.com/b166b4bf4698411eaf2a13fdf2d4bd9c
The reporters claim the editors removed it from the story intially. Also, people with early access to the book on which the story is based have been pointing out all the many more amazing things it contained. For instance, Ford's friend (Leland Keyser) who said she did not remember the party revealed that she was put under immense pressure by Ford allies to say that she did remember the event, or at least be more open to it, even going so far as to hint that if she didn't do it word would get out about her past drug troubles. She's a hero in this story too, for not buckling.
Which reminds me, I wonder how much pressure the woman in this latest story is getting to say something, anything, that would give these allegations a life-line. Must be crazy for her too.
+ Show Spoiler +We spoke multiple times to Keyser, who also said that she didn’t recall that get-together or any others like it. In fact, she challenged Ford’s accuracy. “I don’t have any confidence in the story.” “I was told behind the scenes that certain things could be spread about me if I didn’t comply,"
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On September 17 2019 09:08 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2019 06:07 RenSC2 wrote:On September 17 2019 05:57 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 05:55 RenSC2 wrote:
One thing about "white culture". A lot of white people in America don't really know their history either. Some can't even tell you where their last name originates. To them, they consider themselves generic "white", not English or German or French or whatever. So, rather than link themselves to a specific European country, they instead link themselves Europe in general. Thus you get "European culture" or "white culture". Not surprisingly, it comes from ignorance, but perhaps not the type of ignorance that is being blamed. If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it.
That is a universal thing imo.
Asking where someones heritage may lie due to their appearance can be done in a polite and engaging instead of a dumbed down you are different looking where are you from style.
And I think everyone does that or did that at some point. Doing so doesn't necessitate malicious intent, sometimes it's just unawareness of the question's Subtext.
I've read a book couple years back that dealt with posing that question quite elegantly, can't look it up right now unfortunately.
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Northern Ireland24385 Posts
On September 17 2019 11:30 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 01:47 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 01:25 travis wrote:On September 17 2019 01:20 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 01:14 travis wrote:On September 17 2019 01:11 fefil wrote:On September 17 2019 01:11 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 01:10 fefil wrote:On September 17 2019 01:05 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 00:59 fefil wrote:
[quote]
i am genuinely sorry that you got that impression from my post. what nazi ideas am i supposedly ascribing? An existential threat to white Europeans by being out bred by the inferior biological stock of Africans, whose inferiority is demonstrated by the technological superiority of Europeans. It’s all Nazi rhetoric. There’s nothing in there that isn’t Nazi. You’re a Nazi. There is a political group that agrees with your worldview and expresses those concerns and it’s the Nazi party. I never said they were inferior. didnt mention that at all, as a matter of fact. also i did not mention race, just europeans. you're making a conjecture at best, projection at worst. is the existential threat not true, then? care to explain the birth rates, rising populations, etc? why is it not true? also dont nazis typically believe in fascism, a hierarchy of races, aggressive foreign policy etc? if so, since i dont believe in any of those things, how am I a nazi? I’m not interested in debating the merits of Nazism with you. thats all you had to say then. cheers. I don't think you sound like a nazi at all, but I am curious what you think that "the european race" means (white people?), and why we should be concerned about them being "bred out" ? If you don’t think he sounds like a Nazi you must be unclear on what Nazis sound like. The “look at the technological and social achievements of Europe compared to the spear chuckers, we must defend our genetic stock to preserve this” is Nazi 101. It’s the main argument used to defend the importance of the preservation of the white race which is what his post was arguing. Maybe you talk to a lot more nazis than me. It seems like in today's society it's not only socially acceptable but even encouraged for minority groups to talk about cultural and even genetic preservation but somehow when it's white people saying that stuff then they are nazis. But if it's, say, brown people, then it is perfectly fine. Also it's completely ridiculous and shameful to ban someone for their opinions when you are questioning their opinions and encouraging them to share them. Maybe if you had told him to stop, which also would have been weird because I don't even see what he is doing wrong. If you don't agree with people who have those ideologies you definitely aren't going to create positive change by banning them from discussion forums when they try to discuss them. As I said previously, I have no problem with cultural preservation but you don't need a political party to do that, you just need to practice and teach said culture to your children. But there is no 'European' culture, there is no 'White' culture. There is Dutch culture, or French/German/Spanish/Polish/ect culture (and many subsets within that) but what is European culture? Its Nazi talk for white people being white. And note how it quickly moved away from preserving culture into keeping non-Europeans out and ensuring racial purity. Because the culture blurp is just there to provide a cover for the real idiology, ensuring white supremacy. I disagree with that.. To the extent that it is meaningful to talk about millions and millions of people sharing behavior/habits/opinions in a way that we call 'culture' (and I would certainly find it difficult to speak quantitatively about that in general) I certainly think it there is a European culture, at least just as much as there is German or Italian. (White Supremacy for example certainly strikes me as a particularly 'European' idea - more so than Dutch, or British, or German or whatever) Historically I think this makes sense as well.. Borders have moved like crazy across the continent for more than 1000 years and often people simply remained where they were as the map was redrawn around them. Personally I started considering myself European at some point after to moving to the US - sharing certain experiences and outlooks with other Euros kind of just made it happen organically (Our befuddlement over what 'checks' were, outrage over $500 hospital bills, sadness over the lack of vacation days etc, etc). And polling seems certainly seems to bear out that there is something called a 'European' identity + Show Spoiler + - even though I'm sure many people would disagree on what it means (but then again, being Swedish definitely means something very different to me than it does to say Björn Söder + Show Spoiler +). Here are some things I think are reasonable to say differ between 'American culture' from 'European Culture' 1 Europeans overall are more receptive than Americans to the idea that prison is at least partly about rehabilitation in addition to punishment, and overall Euros favour significantly shorter prison terms for similar crimes. 2 Europeans prefer soccer to baseball. 3 Europeans are significantly worse at accepting/integrating foreigners than Americans. It is quite spectacular really, people who come to America, as refugees, migrants, whatever become productive contributors really quickly (according to this article the median income of a refugee to America _surpasses_ the median American after ~30 years in the country + Show Spoiler +https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/19/how-americas-refugee-policy-is-damaging-to-the-world-and-to-itself - meanwhile in Sweden, and literally every other European country, immigrants and refugees from outside Europe lag significantly behind the country average not just for decades but _generations_. As I see it this is 100% a failure of 'European culture', and I am calling it 'European' culture because the same failure mode reproduces itself across the continent even though approaches and details vary wildly. I dunnu, three things across 3 pretty different axes, certainly no single one of those things are unique to euros or americans, but add enough things like that up and I think you could probably make a stab at 'culture'.
It depends who is making that particular stab at looking to define a ‘European culture.’ Between pop culture and especially the internet being a homogenising force, most Westerners are far more similar than not, but as you say Europeans tend to be politically different in those areas you mentioned. Plus the EU project and its precursors existing.
Insofar as people consider being European as a subset of their identity, many people do, plus with all the commonality found across the continent there is something to it. As someone from Northern Ireland identity is a strange and amorphous thing and very personal, not really subject to actual logic and prodding.
It’s just bizarrely invoked by ardent nationalists in a nonsensical way as a way of saying ‘white people’ without actually saying it. Who usually have some Roman bust as their profile while having a rather poor grasp on actual Roman history.
As for integration, that’s a persistent failure although I can’t remember all the facts and figures from my previous readings of the topics, it is rather sobering reading for European snobs who like to bash America.
That said black Americans lag behind in all sorts of metrics too, in a crude sense places like France have done a terrible job integrating people from the former colonies who are non-white.
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Northern Ireland24385 Posts
On September 17 2019 16:32 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 09:08 Gahlo wrote:On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. On September 17 2019 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2019 06:07 RenSC2 wrote:On September 17 2019 05:57 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 05:55 RenSC2 wrote:
One thing about "white culture". A lot of white people in America don't really know their history either. Some can't even tell you where their last name originates. To them, they consider themselves generic "white", not English or German or French or whatever. So, rather than link themselves to a specific European country, they instead link themselves Europe in general. Thus you get "European culture" or "white culture". Not surprisingly, it comes from ignorance, but perhaps not the type of ignorance that is being blamed. If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it. That is a universal thing imo. Asking where someones heritage may lie due to their appearance can be done in a polite and engaging instead of a dumbed down you are different looking where are you from style. And I think everyone does that or did that at some point. Doing so doesn't necessitate malicious intent, sometimes it's just unawareness of the question's Subtext. I've read a book couple years back that dealt with posing that question quite elegantly, can't look it up right now unfortunately.
I’ve never really had an issue with it myself, if you’re polite and it comes up naturally as you get to know someone and learn more about their background and seem genuinely curious people don’t tend to mind, indeed some are just waiting for the opportunity to share some of their heritage.
It’ll differ place to place of course, Northern Ireland is one of the whitest places on earth so there is that to factor in.
I imagine it would be the same if I moved to Asia and had another child over there with an Asian woman, as they’re really homogenous places too.
In places that are more melting pots, without as dominant a ‘main’ ethnic group, such as the States I assume the questioning of heritage can be much more loaded
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On September 17 2019 18:10 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 11:30 KlaCkoN wrote:On September 17 2019 01:47 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 01:25 travis wrote:On September 17 2019 01:20 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 01:14 travis wrote:On September 17 2019 01:11 fefil wrote:On September 17 2019 01:11 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 01:10 fefil wrote:On September 17 2019 01:05 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
An existential threat to white Europeans by being out bred by the inferior biological stock of Africans, whose inferiority is demonstrated by the technological superiority of Europeans.
It’s all Nazi rhetoric. There’s nothing in there that isn’t Nazi. You’re a Nazi. There is a political group that agrees with your worldview and expresses those concerns and it’s the Nazi party. I never said they were inferior. didnt mention that at all, as a matter of fact. also i did not mention race, just europeans. you're making a conjecture at best, projection at worst. is the existential threat not true, then? care to explain the birth rates, rising populations, etc? why is it not true? also dont nazis typically believe in fascism, a hierarchy of races, aggressive foreign policy etc? if so, since i dont believe in any of those things, how am I a nazi? I’m not interested in debating the merits of Nazism with you. thats all you had to say then. cheers. I don't think you sound like a nazi at all, but I am curious what you think that "the european race" means (white people?), and why we should be concerned about them being "bred out" ? If you don’t think he sounds like a Nazi you must be unclear on what Nazis sound like. The “look at the technological and social achievements of Europe compared to the spear chuckers, we must defend our genetic stock to preserve this” is Nazi 101. It’s the main argument used to defend the importance of the preservation of the white race which is what his post was arguing. Maybe you talk to a lot more nazis than me. It seems like in today's society it's not only socially acceptable but even encouraged for minority groups to talk about cultural and even genetic preservation but somehow when it's white people saying that stuff then they are nazis. But if it's, say, brown people, then it is perfectly fine. Also it's completely ridiculous and shameful to ban someone for their opinions when you are questioning their opinions and encouraging them to share them. Maybe if you had told him to stop, which also would have been weird because I don't even see what he is doing wrong. If you don't agree with people who have those ideologies you definitely aren't going to create positive change by banning them from discussion forums when they try to discuss them. As I said previously, I have no problem with cultural preservation but you don't need a political party to do that, you just need to practice and teach said culture to your children. But there is no 'European' culture, there is no 'White' culture. There is Dutch culture, or French/German/Spanish/Polish/ect culture (and many subsets within that) but what is European culture? Its Nazi talk for white people being white. And note how it quickly moved away from preserving culture into keeping non-Europeans out and ensuring racial purity. Because the culture blurp is just there to provide a cover for the real idiology, ensuring white supremacy. I disagree with that.. To the extent that it is meaningful to talk about millions and millions of people sharing behavior/habits/opinions in a way that we call 'culture' (and I would certainly find it difficult to speak quantitatively about that in general) I certainly think it there is a European culture, at least just as much as there is German or Italian. (White Supremacy for example certainly strikes me as a particularly 'European' idea - more so than Dutch, or British, or German or whatever) Historically I think this makes sense as well.. Borders have moved like crazy across the continent for more than 1000 years and often people simply remained where they were as the map was redrawn around them. Personally I started considering myself European at some point after to moving to the US - sharing certain experiences and outlooks with other Euros kind of just made it happen organically (Our befuddlement over what 'checks' were, outrage over $500 hospital bills, sadness over the lack of vacation days etc, etc). And polling seems certainly seems to bear out that there is something called a 'European' identity + Show Spoiler + - even though I'm sure many people would disagree on what it means (but then again, being Swedish definitely means something very different to me than it does to say Björn Söder + Show Spoiler +). Here are some things I think are reasonable to say differ between 'American culture' from 'European Culture' 1 Europeans overall are more receptive than Americans to the idea that prison is at least partly about rehabilitation in addition to punishment, and overall Euros favour significantly shorter prison terms for similar crimes. 2 Europeans prefer soccer to baseball. 3 Europeans are significantly worse at accepting/integrating foreigners than Americans. It is quite spectacular really, people who come to America, as refugees, migrants, whatever become productive contributors really quickly (according to this article the median income of a refugee to America _surpasses_ the median American after ~30 years in the country + Show Spoiler +https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/19/how-americas-refugee-policy-is-damaging-to-the-world-and-to-itself - meanwhile in Sweden, and literally every other European country, immigrants and refugees from outside Europe lag significantly behind the country average not just for decades but _generations_. As I see it this is 100% a failure of 'European culture', and I am calling it 'European' culture because the same failure mode reproduces itself across the continent even though approaches and details vary wildly. I dunnu, three things across 3 pretty different axes, certainly no single one of those things are unique to euros or americans, but add enough things like that up and I think you could probably make a stab at 'culture'. It depends who is making that particular stab at looking to define a ‘European culture.’ Between pop culture and especially the internet being a homogenising force, most Westerners are far more similar than not, but as you say Europeans tend to be politically different in those areas you mentioned. Plus the EU project and its precursors existing. Insofar as people consider being European as a subset of their identity, many people do, plus with all the commonality found across the continent there is something to it. As someone from Northern Ireland identity is a strange and amorphous thing and very personal, not really subject to actual logic and prodding. It’s just bizarrely invoked by ardent nationalists in a nonsensical way as a way of saying ‘white people’ without actually saying it. Who usually have some Roman bust as their profile while having a rather poor grasp on actual Roman history. As for integration, that’s a persistent failure although I can’t remember all the facts and figures from my previous readings of the topics, it is rather sobering reading for European snobs who like to bash America. That said black Americans lag behind in all sorts of metrics too, in a crude sense places like France have done a terrible job integrating people from the former colonies who are non-white.
An argue could be claim that pop culture (and so the current anglosaxon culture) is not a culture but a mean of domination against the popular class and a good money makers : an entairtainement industry.
As for european identity, it just disappeared thanks to anglosaxon ppl who basically are destroying every culture with the globalization. If you look at France : popular class are only watching anglo saxon stuffs and it is even worst for our elites, they all spoke english and are eager to apply the anglosaxon society model. Btw, 90% of the intellectual concepts of the last decades used in France are english, this is not a basic cultural hegemony, we do not think in french anymore, it not a dead language but it has lost so much. What I am describing is not about France only where we basically lost, we are gallo-american, it is fight between still very active cultures and society against American globalization in China, middle East, Russia.
Before, European people have been mostly cimented during the Dark Age by the greek-latin/christian and jewish legacy, latin was the global language at the time.
As for integration, well, USA is not really about integration, their community system prevent this, the elites of this country needs racism and hatred between the communities in order to keep their privelege. They're good at instrumentalizing, especially in France, as far as I know, letting or even pushing immigrate population toward religious fanatism like in USA (in order to avoid any kind of emancipation) is not truly great for integration.
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On September 17 2019 18:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 16:32 Artisreal wrote:On September 17 2019 09:08 Gahlo wrote:On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. On September 17 2019 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2019 06:07 RenSC2 wrote:On September 17 2019 05:57 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 05:55 RenSC2 wrote:
One thing about "white culture". A lot of white people in America don't really know their history either. Some can't even tell you where their last name originates. To them, they consider themselves generic "white", not English or German or French or whatever. So, rather than link themselves to a specific European country, they instead link themselves Europe in general. Thus you get "European culture" or "white culture". Not surprisingly, it comes from ignorance, but perhaps not the type of ignorance that is being blamed. If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it. That is a universal thing imo. Asking where someones heritage may lie due to their appearance can be done in a polite and engaging instead of a dumbed down you are different looking where are you from style. And I think everyone does that or did that at some point. Doing so doesn't necessitate malicious intent, sometimes it's just unawareness of the question's Subtext. I've read a book couple years back that dealt with posing that question quite elegantly, can't look it up right now unfortunately. I’ve never really had an issue with it myself, if you’re polite and it comes up naturally as you get to know someone and learn more about their background and seem genuinely curious people don’t tend to mind, indeed some are just waiting for the opportunity to share some of their heritage.
This I agree with. Most people who ask this kind of question impolitely or before they've gotten to know someone even a little just have some lack of social finesse. I doubt there is anyone who minds such a question from someone who has already been politely demonstrating interest in their lives.
It's when someone asks the question right away that it's often just kind of awkward and weird.
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On September 17 2019 18:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 16:32 Artisreal wrote:On September 17 2019 09:08 Gahlo wrote:On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. On September 17 2019 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2019 06:07 RenSC2 wrote:On September 17 2019 05:57 KwarK wrote:On September 17 2019 05:55 RenSC2 wrote:
One thing about "white culture". A lot of white people in America don't really know their history either. Some can't even tell you where their last name originates. To them, they consider themselves generic "white", not English or German or French or whatever. So, rather than link themselves to a specific European country, they instead link themselves Europe in general. Thus you get "European culture" or "white culture". Not surprisingly, it comes from ignorance, but perhaps not the type of ignorance that is being blamed. If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it. That is a universal thing imo. Asking where someones heritage may lie due to their appearance can be done in a polite and engaging instead of a dumbed down you are different looking where are you from style. And I think everyone does that or did that at some point. Doing so doesn't necessitate malicious intent, sometimes it's just unawareness of the question's Subtext. I've read a book couple years back that dealt with posing that question quite elegantly, can't look it up right now unfortunately. I’ve never really had an issue with it myself, if you’re polite and it comes up naturally as you get to know someone and learn more about their background and seem genuinely curious people don’t tend to mind, indeed some are just waiting for the opportunity to share some of their heritage. It’ll differ place to place of course, Northern Ireland is one of the whitest places on earth so there is that to factor in. I imagine it would be the same if I moved to Asia and had another child over there with an Asian woman, as they’re really homogenous places too. In places that are more melting pots, without as dominant a ‘main’ ethnic group, such as the States I assume the questioning of heritage can be much more loaded
I disagree that the perception/presence of a melting pot has anything to do with "where are you from?" being a loaded question, and I would point out to Brazil as a counter-example. Asking about origin here is always about what city/state the person is from, unless they have demonstrated to be a foreigner (through accent or clear mannerism). It's such a part of our culture that, if you're male between 15-25 and you move to another city, there's a considerable chance that you end taking your origin city as a nickname (as is my case, having moved to São Paulo at 17 for university, and at 30 still being called by that city name).
I might even say this (not being a loaded question) is because of Brazil being a genetic melting pot (more so than america). Any face (except maybe Central/South Asian ethnicities?) can be accepted as "brazillian", which is why the brazillian passport is one of the most valuable ones to criminal organizations on the black market.
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On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point?
I am saying workers are paid less than they should be because tech companies hire H1Bs instead of people already living in the US. With people available and willing to do the work in my industry, they will use H1B to cut costs. They do the same thing by making a conscious decision to hire a certain number of contract workers and a certain number of "actual" employees, then have the contract workers stay around for years at a time while doing the same work as employees. Contract workers are often used for the exact same type of work as an "employee" in the tech industry.
That being said, I am sure there are times when H1B and contract work makes sense. But there are many ways the programs are being exploited in very unethical ways.
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United States42250 Posts
The US should absolutely encourage highly skilled workers to come from around the world. It reduces the need to move the jobs to where the workers are. At least then the highly skilled workers are spending their pay in American stores and paying American taxes. Same with student visas, the US should be doing all it can to keep the engineers it trains in the US. Training them and sending them home is insane.
Give these people right to work.
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On September 17 2019 23:48 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 16 2019 23:37 Mohdoo wrote:On September 16 2019 22:03 farvacola wrote:
Around 50k UAW members working at GM went on strike at midnight this morning, protesting the company’s use of temp workers, plant closures, and job security issues. Temp workers and H1B both need major reform. We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry and major companies use temp/contract workers as a way to cut costs. I'd love to see one of the candidates talk about what they will do to empower workers. I haven't heard much yet, if anything. What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I am saying workers are paid less than they should be because tech companies hire H1Bs instead of people already living in the US. With people available and willing to do the work in my industry, they will use H1B to cut costs. They do the same thing by making a conscious decision to hire a certain number of contract workers and a certain number of "actual" employees, then have the contract workers stay around for years at a time while doing the same work as employees. Contract workers are often used for the exact same type of work as an "employee" in the tech industry. That being said, I am sure there are times when H1B and contract work makes sense. But there are many ways the programs are being exploited in very unethical ways.
What makes you think that isn't the case for nearly every industry (granted the particular type of visa/immigration status varies)?
As I thought, your argument is as presented, a rehash of the right-wing anti-immigrant argument from a neoliberal perspective.
I find it problematic, because while people rightly noticed the poorly covered ethno-nationalism that came about the same time, none seemed to notice (or find comment worthy) what's effectively a more "diverse" version of the same type of nationalism with many of the same problems (getting people of different backgrounds to push the same white-anglo nationalist BS with a civility mask on it).
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On September 18 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:
The US should absolutely encourage highly skilled workers to come from around the world. It reduces the need to move the jobs to where the workers are. At least then the highly skilled workers are spending their pay in American stores and paying American taxes. Same with student visas, the US should be doing all it can to keep the engineers it trains in the US. Training them and sending them home is insane.
Give these people right to work.
We are describing 2 different situations.
Good: Hiring foreign workers because they have very valuable and very rare skill sets we need
Bad: Hiring foreign workers with sub-par experience because they are cheaper than entry level citizens
------
Good: Retaining engineers we train in the US rather than letting them take their skills with them somewhere else
Bad: Hiring foreign engineers with sub-par training from other countries because they are cheaper than entry level citizens
Similarly, with contract workers:
Good: Using contract workers to fill in variable gaps so that businesses can be nimble
Bad: Hiring contract workers to do the same things as "employees", but without benefits, with job assignments lasting for 5+ years at a time.
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On September 18 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:
The US should absolutely encourage highly skilled workers to come from around the world. It reduces the need to move the jobs to where the workers are. At least then the highly skilled workers are spending their pay in American stores and paying American taxes. Same with student visas, the US should be doing all it can to keep the engineers it trains in the US. Training them and sending them home is insane.
Give these people right to work.
I think it really depends on the company that is bringing the people over on H1B.
Infosys tends to bring garbage coders who spit out bad code for about 1/3rd the price of a local hire. Some of Info people are AMAZING. we have some really great ones working at my work who kill it and deserve way more, but we also have some that are straight bad.
I think the issue a lot of people in tech have is when H1B are used to bring in unskilled coders to just pump out code on the cheap. I've never known anyone to have a problem with an H1B when its used to bring in top talent.
If the H1B system was reformed so that they had to be paid closer to the actual base pay of a US worker I think you would see lots of complaints from workers drop
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On September 18 2019 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:
The US should absolutely encourage highly skilled workers to come from around the world. It reduces the need to move the jobs to where the workers are. At least then the highly skilled workers are spending their pay in American stores and paying American taxes. Same with student visas, the US should be doing all it can to keep the engineers it trains in the US. Training them and sending them home is insane.
Give these people right to work. We are describing 2 different situations. Good: Hiring foreign workers because they have very valuable and very rare skill sets we need Bad: Hiring foreign workers with sub-par experience because they are cheaper than entry level citizens ------ Good: Retaining engineers we train in the US rather than letting them take their skills with them somewhere else Bad: Hiring foreign engineers with sub-par training from other countries because they are cheaper than entry level citizens Similarly, with contract workers: Good: Using contract workers to fill in variable gaps so that businesses can be nimbleBad: Hiring contract workers to do the same things as "employees", but without benefits, with job assignments lasting for 5+ years at a time.
This right here. I work at a finance company and we ramped up contract work after 2008 so that if another downturn comes we don't lay off associates
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United States42250 Posts
On September 18 2019 00:41 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On September 18 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:
The US should absolutely encourage highly skilled workers to come from around the world. It reduces the need to move the jobs to where the workers are. At least then the highly skilled workers are spending their pay in American stores and paying American taxes. Same with student visas, the US should be doing all it can to keep the engineers it trains in the US. Training them and sending them home is insane.
Give these people right to work. We are describing 2 different situations. Good: Hiring foreign workers because they have very valuable and very rare skill sets we need Bad: Hiring foreign workers with sub-par experience because they are cheaper than entry level citizens ------ Good: Retaining engineers we train in the US rather than letting them take their skills with them somewhere else Bad: Hiring foreign engineers with sub-par training from other countries because they are cheaper than entry level citizens Similarly, with contract workers: Good: Using contract workers to fill in variable gaps so that businesses can be nimbleBad: Hiring contract workers to do the same things as "employees", but without benefits, with job assignments lasting for 5+ years at a time. This right here. I work at a finance company and we ramped up contract work after 2008 so that if another downturn comes we don't lay off associates
Using contract workers in this way sucks for the workers, and honestly it’s not great for the company. It’s not socially good to have individuals with no guarantee of hours or income, it leads to poverty traps like payday loans to smooth out irregular income. The company bottom line may be better but society as a whole is poorer when you don’t give the working poor a stable foundation to build their lives on. The quality of work is also not as good due to high turnover. I’m actually in the process of generating an analysis on this for my current benefactor, in part motivated because I’d like to make a financial case for them to not be so shitty to our temps. My hypothesis is that the gains in labour quantity and price variance are offset by negative material quantity variances from scrap, increased CoQ and rework, and training time. The problem is placing a dollar value on having a stable team doing the job they’ve trained to do. In a basic model employees are treated as interchangeable parts but I suspect that when I dig into the numbers the temps will have a lot of costs we haven’t properly accounted for.
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On September 18 2019 00:41 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On September 18 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:
The US should absolutely encourage highly skilled workers to come from around the world. It reduces the need to move the jobs to where the workers are. At least then the highly skilled workers are spending their pay in American stores and paying American taxes. Same with student visas, the US should be doing all it can to keep the engineers it trains in the US. Training them and sending them home is insane.
Give these people right to work. We are describing 2 different situations. Good: Hiring foreign workers because they have very valuable and very rare skill sets we need Bad: Hiring foreign workers with sub-par experience because they are cheaper than entry level citizens ------ Good: Retaining engineers we train in the US rather than letting them take their skills with them somewhere else Bad: Hiring foreign engineers with sub-par training from other countries because they are cheaper than entry level citizens Similarly, with contract workers: Good: Using contract workers to fill in variable gaps so that businesses can be nimbleBad: Hiring contract workers to do the same things as "employees", but without benefits, with job assignments lasting for 5+ years at a time. This right here. I work at a finance company and we ramped up contract work after 2008 so that if another downturn comes we don't lay off associates
The unfortunate reality is that when a company suddenly needs to cut costs, they can cut more costs be firing an employee rather than terminating a contract. When you have contractors and employees doing the same work, a company can cut costs more effectively be firing an employee. Happening all over the tech industry.
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Northern Ireland24385 Posts
On September 18 2019 00:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 00:41 IyMoon wrote:On September 18 2019 00:34 Mohdoo wrote:On September 18 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:
The US should absolutely encourage highly skilled workers to come from around the world. It reduces the need to move the jobs to where the workers are. At least then the highly skilled workers are spending their pay in American stores and paying American taxes. Same with student visas, the US should be doing all it can to keep the engineers it trains in the US. Training them and sending them home is insane.
Give these people right to work. We are describing 2 different situations. Good: Hiring foreign workers because they have very valuable and very rare skill sets we need Bad: Hiring foreign workers with sub-par experience because they are cheaper than entry level citizens ------ Good: Retaining engineers we train in the US rather than letting them take their skills with them somewhere else Bad: Hiring foreign engineers with sub-par training from other countries because they are cheaper than entry level citizens Similarly, with contract workers: Good: Using contract workers to fill in variable gaps so that businesses can be nimbleBad: Hiring contract workers to do the same things as "employees", but without benefits, with job assignments lasting for 5+ years at a time. This right here. I work at a finance company and we ramped up contract work after 2008 so that if another downturn comes we don't lay off associates Using contract workers in this way sucks for the workers, and honestly it’s not great for the company. It’s not socially good to have individuals with no guarantee of hours or income, it leads to poverty traps like payday loans to smooth out irregular income. The company bottom line may be better but society as a whole is poorer when you don’t give the working poor a stable foundation to build their lives on. The quality of work is also not as good due to high turnover. I’m actually in the process of generating an analysis on this for my current benefactor, in part motivated because I’d like to make a financial case for them to not be so shitty to our temps. My hypothesis is that the gains in labour quantity and price variance are offset by negative material quantity variances from scrap, increased CoQ and rework, and training time. The problem is placing a dollar value on having a stable team doing the job they’ve trained to do. In a basic model employees are treated as interchangeable parts but I suspect that when I dig into the numbers the temps will have a lot of costs we haven’t properly accounted for.
I’d be interested to see what you find looking deeper. My personal experiences and base intuition is largely in line with what you said.
Stress is a big performance inhibitor as well, even aside from the more commonly accepted effects it really inhibits people cognitively to a degree many are unaware of.
That’s not to mention other benefits of people having more stability that they can plan around, for the employers themselves. It’s rather hard to buy in to a company beyond base professional pride if you feel like an interchangeable cog.
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EPT
