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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On September 19 2019 02:10 KwarK wrote:
Most people in the 60s weren’t hippies. It was a relatively small movement that captured the popular imagination. It’s not that aging hippies have become the man, it’s that aging hippies aren’t relevant.
It didn't help that a decent chunk of the hipp-ier hippies got hepatitis/syphilis/infertility thanks to gonorrhea and chlamydia and fried their brains with LSD. You can still find those people, they're just out in communes near the West Coast talking borderline nonsense.
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There should probably be some distinction made between your Charles Manson hipp-ier hippies and the intellectual, political and social leaders of the era to avoid doing Nixon era smearing of leftists as drug riddled soviet spies.
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Kwark any chance you could decipher the recent fed spending? Looks to me that we're being set up to buy a bunch of bad debt ~2020 else banks will say US corporations won't be able to make their tax payments and the whole system will collapse. So the argument will be "even if you don't want another bailout, we have to have one so corporations can pay their taxes".
When in reality the stress is heavily driven by the tax burden on those corporations having been reduced, significantly reducing the taxes collected from those corporations and their owners.
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United States42653 Posts
On September 19 2019 04:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Kwark any chance you could decipher the recent fed spending? Looks to me that we're being set up to buy a bunch of bad debt ~2020 else banks will say US corporations won't be able to make their tax payments and the whole system will collapse. So the argument will be "even if you don't want another bailout, we have to have one so corporations can pay their taxes". When in reality the stress is heavily driven by the tax burden on those corporations having been reduced, significantly reducing the taxes collected from those corporations and their owners.
I’m not a finance guy so I probably can’t explain it well but my understanding is that banking mostly runs on promises between entities who are good for it. This is because it’s expensive to have cash, holding dollars means opportunity cost, whereas giving out IOUs means interest expense at a lower rate.
Each night they sell super short term IOUs for cash and settle up with each other before returning the cash in the morning. The only big player who requires to be paid in dollars, rather than IOUs, is the US gov who required a lot of dollars on the 9/15 tax deadline. So on the night of 9/15 there weren’t enough actual dollars in the system to buy all the IOUs banks were selling to get dollars to settle up, or at least not at the usual rates. The overnight rate is normally super low because they’re big banks and they pay it back on the morning with interest but the run on cash caused it to spike to 10% annualized before the Fed stepped in.
The Fed basically injected a bunch of dollars into the system by buying, and then selling back, the IOUs for the normal rate to end the shortage. Then they did it again twice more because the problem is still there.
I don’t think it’s caused by taxes being too low, higher taxes would have taken even more dollars out of circulation. It’s caused by poor monetary policy execution and generosity towards banks. The rest of us can’t invest our tax obligation because we have to give those dollars away. Apparently the banks can invest the money they owe in tax and then pay the IRS money borrowed from the Fed, making arbitrage profits on the difference.
It’s not the end of the financial system, it’s some smartass playing games because they found a loophole. If the banks were forced to pay the higher interest rates they’d sell some investments and borrow less money, but because the Fed is willing to front them the cash they’re not incentivized to.
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im following that closely cause im speculating on a downturn within next year. fed wont tell you whats up because the last thing they want is panic. only guys who know whats really up are the banks involved and they cant make anything public either as long as it can be kitted in some way. my guess for a trigger would be an automobile industry crisis that spreads into index ETFs that buy anything regardless of rating. only recently ford got a junk bond rating.
i also believe german car manufacturers cheated on emissions because finance drove palladium up which is a requisite for catalysts.
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"housing for all" does not have nearly the obvious appeal that Medicare for all does. Sanders totally shooting himself in the dick.
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United States42653 Posts
I’m currently sitting out of the market because I’m a dumb market timer. Cost me some missed gains over the past few weeks but I’m a pessimist with Brexit and Trump on China.
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On September 19 2019 05:47 KwarK wrote:
I’m currently sitting out of the market because I’m a dumb market timer. Cost me some missed gains over the past few weeks but I’m a pessimist with Brexit and Trump on China.
in a way you can not not sit in the market like you cannot not show behaviour. it just means you are sitting on currency and not equity
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On September 19 2019 02:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 01:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2019 01:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:
New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state.
Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. Aren’t hippies key to some of the worst Silicon Valley excesses? Yup. And a lot of the Woodstock generation ended up working in the media, in marketing, in the management of large corporations and creating the world we live in. In France it’s astonishing the amount of folks from the 1968 generation that were leaders of the protest that you find a decade later pushing the buttons and steering society towards neoliberalism. On September 18 2019 21:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. In the US it's quite clear they were targeted for political repression and blacklisted from many professional circles. The people in power aren't/weren't the people full of ideals, great ideas and postures, those people were killed, imprisoned, bought off, marginalized, etc... It was the young conservatives that strengthened their hold of the Democratic party after the civil rights movement was systematically stomped out (not to diminish their victories). The Clinton's first date was scabbing and Hillary worked for a segregationist after hearing MLK speak in person. They weren't the starry eyed idealists or civil rights activists of their generation by any stretch. Joe Biden is in the same boat, and Warren spent most of her life as a Republican. GH, I thought for a second that we could talk about something else than how the Clinton are EVIIIIIL but broken record is apparently broken. We get it, you hate the democrats. You don’t need to convince us anymore. The way you steer every single bit of conversation to say that Hillary this and Hillary that is exhausting. I’m sorry, I don’t want to offend you, but can you stop? Please? lmao, not offended/hating just making a point. That was not a swipe at the Clinton's, but explaining your argument didn't apply to the politicians. As to the people who chose the comforts and securities of capitulation to neoliberal capitalist society that's a bit different. A lot of "non-conformists" do end up conforming because it becomes increasingly difficult with time to survive/thrive while not conforming. Either society comes towards you or pushes you further away. Aspects of identity and politics that can be absorbed into the greater neoliberal capitalist system expectedly are, while those that aren't, predictably aren't. It's a feedback loop where those that resist neoliberalism (particularly capitalism) fail to be rewarded by the neoliberal system and those that embrace it are held up as tokens and examples of it's legitimacy. Naturally they then have a self-vested interest in maintaining this system and arguing it's legitimacy. It's an extension of the meritocracy myth. Neoliberalism basically argues it's not capitalism and the illusion of profit that's the problem, it's that we've let it get out of control and folks like Warren are going to reign it in rather than succumb to the same type of acquiescence to the exploitation of neoliberal capitalism as the "hippies" and other former non-conformists. Which brings me back to the previous post, where Warren isn't the starry eyed idealist that's aged into a more moderate position. She spent mosst of her life as a Republican and at least to me looks to be exploiting her latent recognition of the horrors of the system she claims to now want to correct. Which is undermined by her inability to confront corrupt Dems and what seems to me to be increasing dishonesty.
comrade, profit is not an illusion. it is real. marx knew this. read your communist manifesto. if it weren’t real marx wouldn’t have spent so much effort trying to understand it.
“Modern bourgeois society with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells”
the magic is real and marx has no kind words to say about the “rural idiocy” that we’ve left behind
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can someone give me the TL;DR on this whole whistleblower thing? is this something new or a recycled story?
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On September 19 2019 08:07 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 02:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 01:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2019 01:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. Aren’t hippies key to some of the worst Silicon Valley excesses? Yup. And a lot of the Woodstock generation ended up working in the media, in marketing, in the management of large corporations and creating the world we live in. In France it’s astonishing the amount of folks from the 1968 generation that were leaders of the protest that you find a decade later pushing the buttons and steering society towards neoliberalism. On September 18 2019 21:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. In the US it's quite clear they were targeted for political repression and blacklisted from many professional circles. The people in power aren't/weren't the people full of ideals, great ideas and postures, those people were killed, imprisoned, bought off, marginalized, etc... It was the young conservatives that strengthened their hold of the Democratic party after the civil rights movement was systematically stomped out (not to diminish their victories). The Clinton's first date was scabbing and Hillary worked for a segregationist after hearing MLK speak in person. They weren't the starry eyed idealists or civil rights activists of their generation by any stretch. Joe Biden is in the same boat, and Warren spent most of her life as a Republican. GH, I thought for a second that we could talk about something else than how the Clinton are EVIIIIIL but broken record is apparently broken. We get it, you hate the democrats. You don’t need to convince us anymore. The way you steer every single bit of conversation to say that Hillary this and Hillary that is exhausting. I’m sorry, I don’t want to offend you, but can you stop? Please? lmao, not offended/hating just making a point. That was not a swipe at the Clinton's, but explaining your argument didn't apply to the politicians. As to the people who chose the comforts and securities of capitulation to neoliberal capitalist society that's a bit different. A lot of "non-conformists" do end up conforming because it becomes increasingly difficult with time to survive/thrive while not conforming. Either society comes towards you or pushes you further away. Aspects of identity and politics that can be absorbed into the greater neoliberal capitalist system expectedly are, while those that aren't, predictably aren't. It's a feedback loop where those that resist neoliberalism (particularly capitalism) fail to be rewarded by the neoliberal system and those that embrace it are held up as tokens and examples of it's legitimacy. Naturally they then have a self-vested interest in maintaining this system and arguing it's legitimacy. It's an extension of the meritocracy myth. Neoliberalism basically argues it's not capitalism and the illusion of profit that's the problem, it's that we've let it get out of control and folks like Warren are going to reign it in rather than succumb to the same type of acquiescence to the exploitation of neoliberal capitalism as the "hippies" and other former non-conformists. Which brings me back to the previous post, where Warren isn't the starry eyed idealist that's aged into a more moderate position. She spent mosst of her life as a Republican and at least to me looks to be exploiting her latent recognition of the horrors of the system she claims to now want to correct. Which is undermined by her inability to confront corrupt Dems and what seems to me to be increasing dishonesty. comrade, profit is not an illusion. it is real. marx knew this. read your communist manifesto. if it weren’t real marx wouldn’t have spent so much effort trying to understand it. “Modern bourgeois society with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells” the magic is real and marx has no kind words to say about the “rural idiocy” that we’ve left behind
Profit is "real" the illusion is that it isn't stolen work and displaced costs.
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Canada11349 Posts
On September 19 2019 10:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 08:07 IgnE wrote:On September 19 2019 02:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 01:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2019 01:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. Aren’t hippies key to some of the worst Silicon Valley excesses? Yup. And a lot of the Woodstock generation ended up working in the media, in marketing, in the management of large corporations and creating the world we live in. In France it’s astonishing the amount of folks from the 1968 generation that were leaders of the protest that you find a decade later pushing the buttons and steering society towards neoliberalism. On September 18 2019 21:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. In the US it's quite clear they were targeted for political repression and blacklisted from many professional circles. The people in power aren't/weren't the people full of ideals, great ideas and postures, those people were killed, imprisoned, bought off, marginalized, etc... It was the young conservatives that strengthened their hold of the Democratic party after the civil rights movement was systematically stomped out (not to diminish their victories). The Clinton's first date was scabbing and Hillary worked for a segregationist after hearing MLK speak in person. They weren't the starry eyed idealists or civil rights activists of their generation by any stretch. Joe Biden is in the same boat, and Warren spent most of her life as a Republican. GH, I thought for a second that we could talk about something else than how the Clinton are EVIIIIIL but broken record is apparently broken. We get it, you hate the democrats. You don’t need to convince us anymore. The way you steer every single bit of conversation to say that Hillary this and Hillary that is exhausting. I’m sorry, I don’t want to offend you, but can you stop? Please? lmao, not offended/hating just making a point. That was not a swipe at the Clinton's, but explaining your argument didn't apply to the politicians. As to the people who chose the comforts and securities of capitulation to neoliberal capitalist society that's a bit different. A lot of "non-conformists" do end up conforming because it becomes increasingly difficult with time to survive/thrive while not conforming. Either society comes towards you or pushes you further away. Aspects of identity and politics that can be absorbed into the greater neoliberal capitalist system expectedly are, while those that aren't, predictably aren't. It's a feedback loop where those that resist neoliberalism (particularly capitalism) fail to be rewarded by the neoliberal system and those that embrace it are held up as tokens and examples of it's legitimacy. Naturally they then have a self-vested interest in maintaining this system and arguing it's legitimacy. It's an extension of the meritocracy myth. Neoliberalism basically argues it's not capitalism and the illusion of profit that's the problem, it's that we've let it get out of control and folks like Warren are going to reign it in rather than succumb to the same type of acquiescence to the exploitation of neoliberal capitalism as the "hippies" and other former non-conformists. Which brings me back to the previous post, where Warren isn't the starry eyed idealist that's aged into a more moderate position. She spent mosst of her life as a Republican and at least to me looks to be exploiting her latent recognition of the horrors of the system she claims to now want to correct. Which is undermined by her inability to confront corrupt Dems and what seems to me to be increasing dishonesty. comrade, profit is not an illusion. it is real. marx knew this. read your communist manifesto. if it weren’t real marx wouldn’t have spent so much effort trying to understand it. “Modern bourgeois society with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells” the magic is real and marx has no kind words to say about the “rural idiocy” that we’ve left behind Profit is "real" the illusion is that it isn't stolen work and displaced costs.
Is it?
If I buy a live edge plank that has been kiln dried for a few hundred dollars and then finish and sell the table and sell it for $900, I've made a profit. But what have I stolen or displaced? The one selling the planks was happy to sell for their few hundred and had no desire to finish it themselves- they are making a tidy profit by cutting and drying the wood. And if the person milling and kiln drying the live edge wood is using their own trees, they'll need to pay for their start-up costs of a mill and kiln, but once that's paid for, it's pretty much all profit. Where is the stolen work and displaced cost?
And then suppose the person with the mill figures the market can handle increased production and under current prices, they are paying themselves $120/ hour (including sharpening the chain saw and dragging the tree in) and he hires someone for $30 an hour. Is the fact that this new employee is not getting the full $120 robbery? The guy could be working at McDonalds for minimum wage- he was not compelled to work for $30/ hour (nor does he own the land with the trees, nor the mill, nor did he design and build the solar panel kiln and nor is he marketing and selling the wood online). He joined voluntarily because the pay is good and he enjoys the work.
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Northern Ireland25215 Posts
On September 19 2019 10:56 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 10:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 08:07 IgnE wrote:On September 19 2019 02:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 01:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2019 01:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. Aren’t hippies key to some of the worst Silicon Valley excesses? Yup. And a lot of the Woodstock generation ended up working in the media, in marketing, in the management of large corporations and creating the world we live in. In France it’s astonishing the amount of folks from the 1968 generation that were leaders of the protest that you find a decade later pushing the buttons and steering society towards neoliberalism. On September 18 2019 21:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. In the US it's quite clear they were targeted for political repression and blacklisted from many professional circles. The people in power aren't/weren't the people full of ideals, great ideas and postures, those people were killed, imprisoned, bought off, marginalized, etc... It was the young conservatives that strengthened their hold of the Democratic party after the civil rights movement was systematically stomped out (not to diminish their victories). The Clinton's first date was scabbing and Hillary worked for a segregationist after hearing MLK speak in person. They weren't the starry eyed idealists or civil rights activists of their generation by any stretch. Joe Biden is in the same boat, and Warren spent most of her life as a Republican. GH, I thought for a second that we could talk about something else than how the Clinton are EVIIIIIL but broken record is apparently broken. We get it, you hate the democrats. You don’t need to convince us anymore. The way you steer every single bit of conversation to say that Hillary this and Hillary that is exhausting. I’m sorry, I don’t want to offend you, but can you stop? Please? lmao, not offended/hating just making a point. That was not a swipe at the Clinton's, but explaining your argument didn't apply to the politicians. As to the people who chose the comforts and securities of capitulation to neoliberal capitalist society that's a bit different. A lot of "non-conformists" do end up conforming because it becomes increasingly difficult with time to survive/thrive while not conforming. Either society comes towards you or pushes you further away. Aspects of identity and politics that can be absorbed into the greater neoliberal capitalist system expectedly are, while those that aren't, predictably aren't. It's a feedback loop where those that resist neoliberalism (particularly capitalism) fail to be rewarded by the neoliberal system and those that embrace it are held up as tokens and examples of it's legitimacy. Naturally they then have a self-vested interest in maintaining this system and arguing it's legitimacy. It's an extension of the meritocracy myth. Neoliberalism basically argues it's not capitalism and the illusion of profit that's the problem, it's that we've let it get out of control and folks like Warren are going to reign it in rather than succumb to the same type of acquiescence to the exploitation of neoliberal capitalism as the "hippies" and other former non-conformists. Which brings me back to the previous post, where Warren isn't the starry eyed idealist that's aged into a more moderate position. She spent mosst of her life as a Republican and at least to me looks to be exploiting her latent recognition of the horrors of the system she claims to now want to correct. Which is undermined by her inability to confront corrupt Dems and what seems to me to be increasing dishonesty. comrade, profit is not an illusion. it is real. marx knew this. read your communist manifesto. if it weren’t real marx wouldn’t have spent so much effort trying to understand it. “Modern bourgeois society with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells” the magic is real and marx has no kind words to say about the “rural idiocy” that we’ve left behind Profit is "real" the illusion is that it isn't stolen work and displaced costs. Is it? If I buy a live edge plank that has been kiln dried for a few hundred dollars and then finish and sell the table and sell it for $900, I've made a profit. But what have I stolen or displaced? The one selling the planks was happy to sell for their few hundred and had no desire to finish it themselves- they are making a tidy profit by cutting and drying the wood. And if the person milling and kiln drying the live edge wood is using their own trees, they'll need to pay for their start-up costs of a mill and kiln, but once that's paid for, it's pretty much all profit. Where is the stolen work and displaced cost? And then suppose the person with the mill figures the market can handle increased production and under current prices, they are paying themselves $120/ hour (including sharpening the chain saw and dragging the tree in) and he hires someone for $30 an hour. Is the fact that this new employee is not getting the full $120 robbery? The guy could be working at McDonalds for minimum wage- he was not compelled to work for $30/ hour (nor does he own the land with the trees, nor the mill, nor did he design and build the solar panel kiln and nor is he marketing and selling the wood online). He joined voluntarily because the pay is good and he enjoys the work.
Define compelled and voluntary here.
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On September 19 2019 11:05 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 10:56 Falling wrote:On September 19 2019 10:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 08:07 IgnE wrote:On September 19 2019 02:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 01:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2019 01:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. Aren’t hippies key to some of the worst Silicon Valley excesses? Yup. And a lot of the Woodstock generation ended up working in the media, in marketing, in the management of large corporations and creating the world we live in. In France it’s astonishing the amount of folks from the 1968 generation that were leaders of the protest that you find a decade later pushing the buttons and steering society towards neoliberalism. On September 18 2019 21:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. In the US it's quite clear they were targeted for political repression and blacklisted from many professional circles. The people in power aren't/weren't the people full of ideals, great ideas and postures, those people were killed, imprisoned, bought off, marginalized, etc... It was the young conservatives that strengthened their hold of the Democratic party after the civil rights movement was systematically stomped out (not to diminish their victories). The Clinton's first date was scabbing and Hillary worked for a segregationist after hearing MLK speak in person. They weren't the starry eyed idealists or civil rights activists of their generation by any stretch. Joe Biden is in the same boat, and Warren spent most of her life as a Republican. GH, I thought for a second that we could talk about something else than how the Clinton are EVIIIIIL but broken record is apparently broken. We get it, you hate the democrats. You don’t need to convince us anymore. The way you steer every single bit of conversation to say that Hillary this and Hillary that is exhausting. I’m sorry, I don’t want to offend you, but can you stop? Please? lmao, not offended/hating just making a point. That was not a swipe at the Clinton's, but explaining your argument didn't apply to the politicians. As to the people who chose the comforts and securities of capitulation to neoliberal capitalist society that's a bit different. A lot of "non-conformists" do end up conforming because it becomes increasingly difficult with time to survive/thrive while not conforming. Either society comes towards you or pushes you further away. Aspects of identity and politics that can be absorbed into the greater neoliberal capitalist system expectedly are, while those that aren't, predictably aren't. It's a feedback loop where those that resist neoliberalism (particularly capitalism) fail to be rewarded by the neoliberal system and those that embrace it are held up as tokens and examples of it's legitimacy. Naturally they then have a self-vested interest in maintaining this system and arguing it's legitimacy. It's an extension of the meritocracy myth. Neoliberalism basically argues it's not capitalism and the illusion of profit that's the problem, it's that we've let it get out of control and folks like Warren are going to reign it in rather than succumb to the same type of acquiescence to the exploitation of neoliberal capitalism as the "hippies" and other former non-conformists. Which brings me back to the previous post, where Warren isn't the starry eyed idealist that's aged into a more moderate position. She spent mosst of her life as a Republican and at least to me looks to be exploiting her latent recognition of the horrors of the system she claims to now want to correct. Which is undermined by her inability to confront corrupt Dems and what seems to me to be increasing dishonesty. comrade, profit is not an illusion. it is real. marx knew this. read your communist manifesto. if it weren’t real marx wouldn’t have spent so much effort trying to understand it. “Modern bourgeois society with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells” the magic is real and marx has no kind words to say about the “rural idiocy” that we’ve left behind Profit is "real" the illusion is that it isn't stolen work and displaced costs. Is it? If I buy a live edge plank that has been kiln dried for a few hundred dollars and then finish and sell the table and sell it for $900, I've made a profit. But what have I stolen or displaced? The one selling the planks was happy to sell for their few hundred and had no desire to finish it themselves- they are making a tidy profit by cutting and drying the wood. And if the person milling and kiln drying the live edge wood is using their own trees, they'll need to pay for their start-up costs of a mill and kiln, but once that's paid for, it's pretty much all profit. Where is the stolen work and displaced cost? And then suppose the person with the mill figures the market can handle increased production and under current prices, they are paying themselves $120/ hour (including sharpening the chain saw and dragging the tree in) and he hires someone for $30 an hour. Is the fact that this new employee is not getting the full $120 robbery? The guy could be working at McDonalds for minimum wage- he was not compelled to work for $30/ hour (nor does he own the land with the trees, nor the mill, nor did he design and build the solar panel kiln and nor is he marketing and selling the wood online). He joined voluntarily because the pay is good and he enjoys the work. Define compelled and voluntary here.
He saw the mill was hiring and volunteered to work for the mill under typical employment. He wasn't compelled due to outside forces or lack of opportunities. He found the listing and applied to work for the mill.
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On September 19 2019 10:56 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 10:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 08:07 IgnE wrote:On September 19 2019 02:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 01:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2019 01:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. Aren’t hippies key to some of the worst Silicon Valley excesses? Yup. And a lot of the Woodstock generation ended up working in the media, in marketing, in the management of large corporations and creating the world we live in. In France it’s astonishing the amount of folks from the 1968 generation that were leaders of the protest that you find a decade later pushing the buttons and steering society towards neoliberalism. On September 18 2019 21:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. In the US it's quite clear they were targeted for political repression and blacklisted from many professional circles. The people in power aren't/weren't the people full of ideals, great ideas and postures, those people were killed, imprisoned, bought off, marginalized, etc... It was the young conservatives that strengthened their hold of the Democratic party after the civil rights movement was systematically stomped out (not to diminish their victories). The Clinton's first date was scabbing and Hillary worked for a segregationist after hearing MLK speak in person. They weren't the starry eyed idealists or civil rights activists of their generation by any stretch. Joe Biden is in the same boat, and Warren spent most of her life as a Republican. GH, I thought for a second that we could talk about something else than how the Clinton are EVIIIIIL but broken record is apparently broken. We get it, you hate the democrats. You don’t need to convince us anymore. The way you steer every single bit of conversation to say that Hillary this and Hillary that is exhausting. I’m sorry, I don’t want to offend you, but can you stop? Please? lmao, not offended/hating just making a point. That was not a swipe at the Clinton's, but explaining your argument didn't apply to the politicians. As to the people who chose the comforts and securities of capitulation to neoliberal capitalist society that's a bit different. A lot of "non-conformists" do end up conforming because it becomes increasingly difficult with time to survive/thrive while not conforming. Either society comes towards you or pushes you further away. Aspects of identity and politics that can be absorbed into the greater neoliberal capitalist system expectedly are, while those that aren't, predictably aren't. It's a feedback loop where those that resist neoliberalism (particularly capitalism) fail to be rewarded by the neoliberal system and those that embrace it are held up as tokens and examples of it's legitimacy. Naturally they then have a self-vested interest in maintaining this system and arguing it's legitimacy. It's an extension of the meritocracy myth. Neoliberalism basically argues it's not capitalism and the illusion of profit that's the problem, it's that we've let it get out of control and folks like Warren are going to reign it in rather than succumb to the same type of acquiescence to the exploitation of neoliberal capitalism as the "hippies" and other former non-conformists. Which brings me back to the previous post, where Warren isn't the starry eyed idealist that's aged into a more moderate position. She spent mosst of her life as a Republican and at least to me looks to be exploiting her latent recognition of the horrors of the system she claims to now want to correct. Which is undermined by her inability to confront corrupt Dems and what seems to me to be increasing dishonesty. comrade, profit is not an illusion. it is real. marx knew this. read your communist manifesto. if it weren’t real marx wouldn’t have spent so much effort trying to understand it. “Modern bourgeois society with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells” the magic is real and marx has no kind words to say about the “rural idiocy” that we’ve left behind Profit is "real" the illusion is that it isn't stolen work and displaced costs. Is it?If I buy a live edge plank that has been kiln dried for a few hundred dollars and then finish and sell the table and sell it for $900, I've made a profit. But what have I stolen or displaced? The one selling the planks was happy to sell for their few hundred and had no desire to finish it themselves- they are making a tidy profit by cutting and drying the wood. And if the person milling and kiln drying the live edge wood is using their own trees, they'll need to pay for their start-up costs of a mill and kiln, but once that's paid for, it's pretty much all profit. Where is the stolen work and displaced cost? And then suppose the person with the mill figures the market can handle increased production and under current prices, they are paying themselves $120/ hour (including sharpening the chain saw and dragging the tree in) and he hires someone for $30 an hour. Is the fact that this new employee is not getting the full $120 robbery? The guy could be working at McDonalds for minimum wage- he was not compelled to work for $30/ hour (nor does he own the land with the trees, nor the mill, nor did he design and build the solar panel kiln and nor is he marketing and selling the wood online). He joined voluntarily because the pay is good and he enjoys the work.
The short answer is, yes.
There's a distinction between compensated work and profit you're not making in your conflation between the two.
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On September 19 2019 10:56 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 10:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 08:07 IgnE wrote:On September 19 2019 02:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 01:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2019 01:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. Aren’t hippies key to some of the worst Silicon Valley excesses? Yup. And a lot of the Woodstock generation ended up working in the media, in marketing, in the management of large corporations and creating the world we live in. In France it’s astonishing the amount of folks from the 1968 generation that were leaders of the protest that you find a decade later pushing the buttons and steering society towards neoliberalism. On September 18 2019 21:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 18 2019 21:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 18 2019 11:37 GreenHorizons wrote:New California polling is disastrous for Kamala Harris, falling behind Yang in her home state. https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1173991833287974913Younger voters are overwhelmingly moving away from the neoliberal orthodoxy that dominated 2016. It's too bad the old people will have damned the species before they really have any control. Although I agree, I wonder if the young people of today won’t be the conservatives of tomorrow. By the time young people get in power, they might actually have become part of the problem rather than the solution. The generation that brought us neoliberalism was full of ideals, great ideas and generous postures in their 20’s. In the US it's quite clear they were targeted for political repression and blacklisted from many professional circles. The people in power aren't/weren't the people full of ideals, great ideas and postures, those people were killed, imprisoned, bought off, marginalized, etc... It was the young conservatives that strengthened their hold of the Democratic party after the civil rights movement was systematically stomped out (not to diminish their victories). The Clinton's first date was scabbing and Hillary worked for a segregationist after hearing MLK speak in person. They weren't the starry eyed idealists or civil rights activists of their generation by any stretch. Joe Biden is in the same boat, and Warren spent most of her life as a Republican. GH, I thought for a second that we could talk about something else than how the Clinton are EVIIIIIL but broken record is apparently broken. We get it, you hate the democrats. You don’t need to convince us anymore. The way you steer every single bit of conversation to say that Hillary this and Hillary that is exhausting. I’m sorry, I don’t want to offend you, but can you stop? Please? lmao, not offended/hating just making a point. That was not a swipe at the Clinton's, but explaining your argument didn't apply to the politicians. As to the people who chose the comforts and securities of capitulation to neoliberal capitalist society that's a bit different. A lot of "non-conformists" do end up conforming because it becomes increasingly difficult with time to survive/thrive while not conforming. Either society comes towards you or pushes you further away. Aspects of identity and politics that can be absorbed into the greater neoliberal capitalist system expectedly are, while those that aren't, predictably aren't. It's a feedback loop where those that resist neoliberalism (particularly capitalism) fail to be rewarded by the neoliberal system and those that embrace it are held up as tokens and examples of it's legitimacy. Naturally they then have a self-vested interest in maintaining this system and arguing it's legitimacy. It's an extension of the meritocracy myth. Neoliberalism basically argues it's not capitalism and the illusion of profit that's the problem, it's that we've let it get out of control and folks like Warren are going to reign it in rather than succumb to the same type of acquiescence to the exploitation of neoliberal capitalism as the "hippies" and other former non-conformists. Which brings me back to the previous post, where Warren isn't the starry eyed idealist that's aged into a more moderate position. She spent mosst of her life as a Republican and at least to me looks to be exploiting her latent recognition of the horrors of the system she claims to now want to correct. Which is undermined by her inability to confront corrupt Dems and what seems to me to be increasing dishonesty. comrade, profit is not an illusion. it is real. marx knew this. read your communist manifesto. if it weren’t real marx wouldn’t have spent so much effort trying to understand it. “Modern bourgeois society with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer, who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells” the magic is real and marx has no kind words to say about the “rural idiocy” that we’ve left behind Profit is "real" the illusion is that it isn't stolen work and displaced costs. Is it? If I buy a live edge plank that has been kiln dried for a few hundred dollars and then finish and sell the table and sell it for $900, I've made a profit. But what have I stolen or displaced? The one selling the planks was happy to sell for their few hundred and had no desire to finish it themselves- they are making a tidy profit by cutting and drying the wood. And if the person milling and kiln drying the live edge wood is using their own trees, they'll need to pay for their start-up costs of a mill and kiln, but once that's paid for, it's pretty much all profit. Where is the stolen work and displaced cost? And then suppose the person with the mill figures the market can handle increased production and under current prices, they are paying themselves $120/ hour (including sharpening the chain saw and dragging the tree in) and he hires someone for $30 an hour. Is the fact that this new employee is not getting the full $120 robbery? The guy could be working at McDonalds for minimum wage- he was not compelled to work for $30/ hour (nor does he own the land with the trees, nor the mill, nor did he design and build the solar panel kiln and nor is he marketing and selling the wood online). He joined voluntarily because the pay is good and he enjoys the work.
First, the dude that you describe is primarily a worker, not a capitalist, so this is a pretty bad example in defense of capitalism: most of his revenue is derived from his own labor, not from the exploitation of his employee. That exploitation is, however, still happening. If the other dude has any say, he is unlikely to decide that he thinks it's cool that he does the same work as the $120 guy and he gets paid 1/4 of that. You're not arguing that the exploitation doesn't exist, you're arguing that it's okay, or good. Don't you think a lack of exploitation would be preferable for the $30 guy? Clearly it isn't from the perspective of the $120 guy, but your argument has been focused on the perspective of the $30 guy so far.
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Is it not the mill owner who has to maintain the mill? So he pays himself more for upkeep, marketing, etc. I think the wage itself is fine. I really don't see an issue with this setup. Even if you take out costs of maintenance and the other factors, 30/hr isn't bad. This isn't taking into account cost of living, which still would be pretty well for most parts of the contiguous US.
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United States42653 Posts
On September 19 2019 11:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Is it not the mill owner who has to maintain the mill? So he pays himself more for upkeep, marketing, etc. I think the wage itself is fine. I really don't see an issue with this setup. Even if you take out costs of maintenance and the other factors, 30/hr isn't bad. This isn't taking into account cost of living, which still would be pretty well for most parts of the contiguous US.
$30/hr isn't objectively anything. It could represent a reasonable share of the profits or it could not. That's part of the problem. People in the US are relatively well off but have an objectively low and decreasing portion of the proceeds of their labour.em money) but it's the wrong thing to measure.
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On September 19 2019 11:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Is it not the mill owner who has to maintain the mill? So he pays himself more for upkeep, marketing, etc. I think the wage itself is fine. I really don't see an issue with this setup. Even if you take out costs of maintenance and the other factors, 30/hr isn't bad. This isn't taking into account cost of living, which still would be pretty well for most parts of the contiguous US.
But he isn't paying himself more for upkeep and marketing, he's paying himself more because he owns the means of production and he's exploiting that.
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On September 19 2019 09:31 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
can someone give me the TL;DR on this whole whistleblower thing? is this something new or a recycled story?
Whistleblower uncovered something sketch between Trump and another head of state and reported it through official channels.
The guy it got reported to was supposed to tell a Congressional panel about it after a certain period of time.
He didn't, instead choosing to discuss it with the DOJ who has no clout in the whole process.
DOJ (and presumably the Whitehouse) is trying to sit on it and not let the panel look at the complaint.
Most likely something new, thought it could be a bit more on something old and we wouldn't know until it gets run through possible redactions anyway.
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EPT
