EPTGranted I have my issues with culture in general, so perhaps I'm not being the most honest focusing on Europe here. I'm not sure german culture or french culture refers to anything particularly defined or useful either.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1804
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
Granted I have my issues with culture in general, so perhaps I'm not being the most honest focusing on Europe here. I'm not sure german culture or french culture refers to anything particularly defined or useful either. | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
RenSC2
United States1057 Posts
| ||
KwarK
United States42654 Posts
On September 17 2019 05:55 RenSC2 wrote: One thing about "white culture". A lot of white people in America don't really know their history either. Some can't even tell you where their last name originates. To them, they consider themselves generic "white", not English or German or French or whatever. So, rather than link themselves to a specific European country, they instead link themselves Europe in general. Thus you get "European culture" or "white culture". Not surprisingly, it comes from ignorance, but perhaps not the type of ignorance that is being blamed. If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? As you say, “they consider themselves white”. Why do you think they have chosen that as their identity and not their nationality. I consider myself British before white. | ||
|
RenSC2
United States1057 Posts
On September 17 2019 05:57 KwarK wrote: If they’re fully immersed in America and don’t know their European roots why do you think they’re unwilling to define themselves as Americans and need reference to an imagined racially pure motherland? Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Culturally, yes, they're American through and through. However, America is still new enough to not be recognized as an origin to a lot of people. American culture is still going through plenty of radical shifts as well. So, when pressed, they're "white" or "European" and their cultural identity derives from that. | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On September 17 2019 06:07 RenSC2 wrote: Because when people ask them where they're from, those same people don't accept America (or specific part of America) as an answer. Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
| ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Simberto
Germany11507 Posts
Also, i have basically no idea what was going on with my family 4 generations ago. I know my grandparents, and have a rough idea about some of my great-grandparents. Beyond that, i can basically only guess that they were probably from around where my grandparents are. I guess if i asked my grandparents, they could probably go back to their grandparents. So with a lot of effort, i could manage 4 generations. To me it seems really weird to identify not with where you are now or where you were born, but with where some people in your family generations ago came from. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10700 Posts
Trying to get factual reasons for this stuff is pointless, it's (maybe reasonably) unhappy people turning to good old days that they never lived themeselfes, mainly because they never existed. It's a scapegoat fed by various right wingers over years and years. I recently got a 22 year old telling me, that he just can't stand to live in switzerland any longer because the country changed so much... Anti-Multiculturalism is a pure scapegoat, so is the fear of islamisation and all that right wing bullshit. These people just got that fed by some leaders for political gains and now the bubbles are self propelling. | ||
|
Gahlo
United States35143 Posts
On September 17 2019 00:18 GreenHorizons wrote: What does " We don't need nearly the H1B we have in the tech industry" mean? That more should be becoming citizens or is it a rehash of the typical Republican talking point? I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. On September 17 2019 06:10 Nebuchad wrote: Is that a thing really? (I'm really asking, I don't know) I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10700 Posts
| ||
|
Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On September 17 2019 07:26 Simberto wrote: It is weird but I've also had the exact same experience as JimmiC as a kid. People here often asked "where's your family from" or questions like that. I think it partly stems from the fact that a large chunk of Canadians' ancestors immigrated in the early-mid 1900s so many people only need to go back a few generations to know where their ancestors were from. These types of questions are fairly loaded and I would hope they are much less common now than they were when I was a kid. I never knew how to answer that question as a kid due to both sides of my family being here since the early 1800s. I know roughly that some of my family is from Scotland but that's about it.That is pretty weird. Considering that here in Europe, everyone would accept "American" (or more specifically, USA or Canada or such) as an answer to the question where you are from. Also, i have basically no idea what was going on with my family 4 generations ago. I know my grandparents, and have a rough idea about some of my great-grandparents. Beyond that, i can basically only guess that they were probably from around where my grandparents are. I guess if i asked my grandparents, they could probably go back to their grandparents. So with a lot of effort, i could manage 4 generations. To me it seems really weird to identify not with where you are now or where you were born, but with where some people in your family generations ago came from. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10700 Posts
In my experience, as soon as someone wants to tell you that, he/she will. If it interests you or not doesn't matter but somehow it's important you wouldn't ask first :p.... (I actually get it, because most people that ask the second questions are true idiots. But "them" assuming i want to know is also kinda, uhm, selfish?) | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On September 17 2019 09:08 Gahlo wrote: I think I read something about how it costs less to hire somebody with an H1B visa than somebody with a greencard or a citizen, which both limits the opportunities and lowers the wages of those in the former groups. I know it is when addressed to minorities, like asking an Asian person where they're really from. I've never personally heard a white person have to explain it. I know you can't speak for Mohdoo but your interpretation/explanation is the right-wing talking point about immigrants I was referencing. If the argument was that they should be citizens then it'd be notably different, but if the argument is "we need less immigrants" it's the same type of garbage imo. | ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On September 17 2019 05:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Igne, the sort of people who talk about european culture don't know or care if it truly exists. They are not the target. He's not the one we need to convince of anything. And what does "truly exists" mean? Ontology matters. | ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On September 17 2019 08:57 Velr wrote: We have similar things going on in Switzerland by the right wing. The probably biggest part of our national identity is "not being german, austrian, french or italian", thats kinda the one thing that unites us and probably also the reason there are no separatist movements here. The whole country is kinda built on multiculturalism and yet, right wing people still hate multiculturalism. FFS they proudly follow a second generation german immigrant... THEY HATE GERMANS. Trying to get factual reasons for this stuff is pointless, it's (maybe reasonably) unhappy people turning to good old days that they never lived themeselfes, mainly because they never existed. It's a scapegoat fed by various right wingers over years and years. I recently got a 22 year old telling me, that he just can't stand to live in switzerland any longer because the country changed so much... Anti-Multiculturalism is a pure scapegoat, so is the fear of islamisation and all that right wing bullshit. These people just got that fed by some leaders for political gains and now the bubbles are self propelling. That is a funny story about a 22 year old. | ||
|
KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On September 17 2019 01:47 Gorsameth wrote: As I said previously, I have no problem with cultural preservation but you don't need a political party to do that, you just need to practice and teach said culture to your children. But there is no 'European' culture, there is no 'White' culture. There is Dutch culture, or French/German/Spanish/Polish/ect culture (and many subsets within that) but what is European culture? Its Nazi talk for white people being white. And note how it quickly moved away from preserving culture into keeping non-Europeans out and ensuring racial purity. Because the culture blurp is just there to provide a cover for the real idiology, ensuring white supremacy. I disagree with that.. To the extent that it is meaningful to talk about millions and millions of people sharing behavior/habits/opinions in a way that we call 'culture' (and I would certainly find it difficult to speak quantitatively about that in general) I certainly think it there is a European culture, at least just as much as there is German or Italian. (White Supremacy for example certainly strikes me as a particularly 'European' idea - more so than Dutch, or British, or German or whatever) Historically I think this makes sense as well.. Borders have moved like crazy across the continent for more than 1000 years and often people simply remained where they were as the map was redrawn around them. Personally I started considering myself European at some point after to moving to the US - sharing certain experiences and outlooks with other Euros kind of just made it happen organically (Our befuddlement over what 'checks' were, outrage over $500 hospital bills, sadness over the lack of vacation days etc, etc). And polling seems certainly seems to bear out that there is something called a 'European' identity + Show Spoiler + - even though I'm sure many people would disagree on what it means (but then again, being Swedish definitely means something very different to me than it does to say Björn Söder + Show Spoiler +). Here are some things I think are reasonable to say differ between 'American culture' from 'European Culture' 1 Europeans overall are more receptive than Americans to the idea that prison is at least partly about rehabilitation in addition to punishment, and overall Euros favour significantly shorter prison terms for similar crimes. 2 Europeans prefer soccer to baseball. 3 Europeans are significantly worse at accepting/integrating foreigners than Americans. It is quite spectacular really, people who come to America, as refugees, migrants, whatever become productive contributors really quickly (according to this article the median income of a refugee to America _surpasses_ the median American after ~30 years in the country + Show Spoiler + https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/19/how-americas-refugee-policy-is-damaging-to-the-world-and-to-itself I dunnu, three things across 3 pretty different axes, certainly no single one of those things are unique to euros or americans, but add enough things like that up and I think you could probably make a stab at 'culture'. | ||
|
Gahlo
United States35143 Posts
On September 17 2019 10:31 GreenHorizons wrote: I know you can't speak for Mohdoo but your interpretation/explanation is the right-wing talking point about immigrants I was referencing. If the argument was that they should be citizens then it'd be notably different, but if the argument is "we need less immigrants" it's the same type of garbage imo. It's more the the H1B's employment requirement means holders can be forced into worse situations be employers because they hold more cards over the H1B worker than citizen/greencarders. That leverage is then also used against those with more stable situations. The problem there isn't the H1B holder. | ||
| ||
