people seem to forget marriage is a means to an end, end being a prosperous family.
perhaps there is a non-traditional way of having a family? not married yet have children then grand children and so on, does the family name matter? big family relationship? to me this is the point of marriage, to start a family. not to prolong love, not to say "i love you forever", to me it simply means lets have babies and make it legit. but this is my opinion and there are plenty of legitimate reasons to marry, no more important than the other. this is just my opinion of marriage. (my poll answer would be yes, no, sometimes, both, and/or. there are many reasons for marrying and ways to marry all varying by culture)
divorce should have nothing to do with it, life is full of drama and ending a commitment is just one of those and it could be much worse like burying someone you still love either a wife/husband or child. not marry because of the chance of fallout? would you not have children for the chance of burying them? thats the chance of life.
if you're not ready to have children, its completely fine not to get married. if you're afraid of things falling apart, there's the divorce option or not if you're not into divorce. life is a game of chance and who you marry, how that turn out is a game of chance, not everyone gets a happy ending but many do live life for that goal. dont want to pay child care after ending it or whatever? you're a irresponsible prick.
On May 01 2015 03:19 reki- wrote: Never get married in the USA (as a man) is what I'm thinking
If you live in Canada you need to reduce that to "don't ever move in with a woman", because if you live with someone for I think 3 years you're considered married according to common law.
On May 01 2015 06:42 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On May 01 2015 03:49 Chairman Ray wrote: On a slightly different note, in the US, is there any point for two individuals who both work and have health benefits to get married? The tax penalties are a pain in the butt.
Uh, what? There are massive financial benefits to being married compared to being single.
This post just screams "I am 14-19ish years old and have no clue what I am talking about, but because I am a teenager I think I know everything".
Doesn't really matter. People who want longer commitments will find someone who feels the same and people who bounce around will bounce around. The only thing that should stop is cultural pressure for marriage as something defined in a very narrow and specific way and as something you must do or you are weird.
Yea, a lot of threads talking about marriage/relationships end up like this on the internet; hipsters, nerds, or otherwise bitter individuals that want to make sweeping negative statements about relationships/marriage, usually born out of bitterness and immaturity.
Marriage can be done for a lot of reasons. The problem is that most of the western world believes in marriage being done because of love, and people, in general, are really bad at this; if you want to marry truly for love/compatibility, you have to be really picky and make the right choice, or you'll end up bitter/unhappy/divorced. On the other hand, historically (and in many cultures still), marriages were arranged/pseudo-arranged and were more about convenience, political moves, financially motivated, etc. which actually makes it quite a bit easier.
Half-true imo. Divorces themselves are the main reason marriage is considered a terrible idea now. People have been getting married and living with a single person for the rest of their lives for centuries, but it's only recently that divorces have been considered acceptable.
I don't really buy this argument that divorce makes marriage less desirable. If anything, divorce being an option makes it easier for people to commit to a relationship because they know they can get out of it; that's all that divorce is, the option to choose to end the commitment you made. It doesn't really follow that having the ability to stop something would cause people to not do that thing at all. In fact, logic says that the exact opposite would happen.
That's illogical. You're saying marriage - something that's supposed to be a legal document stating your life-long commitment to another - is more desirable because it's easier to end that commitment.
On May 01 2015 03:19 reki- wrote: Never get married in the USA (as a man) is what I'm thinking
If you live in Canada you need to reduce that to "don't ever move in with a woman", because if you live with someone for I think 3 years you're considered married according to common law.
On May 01 2015 06:42 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On May 01 2015 03:49 Chairman Ray wrote: On a slightly different note, in the US, is there any point for two individuals who both work and have health benefits to get married? The tax penalties are a pain in the butt.
Uh, what? There are massive financial benefits to being married compared to being single.
This post just screams "I am 14-19ish years old and have no clue what I am talking about, but because I am a teenager I think I know everything".
Doesn't really matter. People who want longer commitments will find someone who feels the same and people who bounce around will bounce around. The only thing that should stop is cultural pressure for marriage as something defined in a very narrow and specific way and as something you must do or you are weird.
Yea, a lot of threads talking about marriage/relationships end up like this on the internet; hipsters, nerds, or otherwise bitter individuals that want to make sweeping negative statements about relationships/marriage, usually born out of bitterness and immaturity.
Marriage can be done for a lot of reasons. The problem is that most of the western world believes in marriage being done because of love, and people, in general, are really bad at this; if you want to marry truly for love/compatibility, you have to be really picky and make the right choice, or you'll end up bitter/unhappy/divorced. On the other hand, historically (and in many cultures still), marriages were arranged/pseudo-arranged and were more about convenience, political moves, financially motivated, etc. which actually makes it quite a bit easier.
Half-true imo. Divorces themselves are the main reason marriage is considered a terrible idea now. People have been getting married and living with a single person for the rest of their lives for centuries, but it's only recently that divorces have been considered acceptable.
I don't really buy this argument that divorce makes marriage less desirable. If anything, divorce being an option makes it easier for people to commit to a relationship because they know they can get out of it; that's all that divorce is, the option to choose to end the commitment you made. It doesn't really follow that having the ability to stop something would cause people to not do that thing at all. In fact, logic says that the exact opposite would happen.
That's illogical. You're saying marriage - something that's supposed to be a legal document stating your life-long commitment to another - is more desirable because it's easier to end that commitment.
Uh, yea.
If I (the average person) have the option of A or -A, but choosing A means I can never go back, then A is a much more serious commitment and I will be a lot more hesitant to do it until I am absolutely sure that I'm not making a mistake.
However, if I can go back on choosing A, then committing to choosing A in the first place isn't as big of a deal, so I am less stingy about choosing A.
This is really basic logic that applies to almost any choice we make; if a choice has more serious consequences that can't be reversed, we are more hesitant to make that choice than we are if we are able to reverse that decision.
people seem to forget marriage is a means to an end, end being a prosperous family.
perhaps there is a non-traditional way of having a family? not married yet have children then grand children and so on, does the family name matter? big family relationship? to me this is the point of marriage, to start a family. not to prolong love, not to say "i love you forever", to me it simply means lets have babies and make it legit. but this is my opinion and there are plenty of legitimate reasons to marry, no more important than the other. this is just my opinion of marriage. (my poll answer would be yes, no, sometimes, both, and/or. there are many reasons for marrying and ways to marry all varying by culture)
divorce should have nothing to do with it, life is full of drama and ending a commitment is just one of those and it could be much worse like burying someone you still love either a wife/husband or child. not marry because of the chance of fallout? would you not have children for the chance of burying them? thats the chance of life.
if you're not ready to have children, its completely fine not to get married. if you're afraid of things falling apart, there's the divorce option or not if you're not into divorce. life is a game of chance and who you marry, how that turn out is a game of chance, not everyone gets a happy ending but many do live life for that goal. dont want to pay child care after ending it or whatever? you're a irresponsible prick.
Marriage is no longer about creating a particular family. We allow divorce, adultery is relatively common, and people aren't required to have kids if they're married (people incapable of having kids/old people are allowed to marry).
Unless the exit option is counter to the idea of marriage itself: lifelong commitment, 'til death do us part, etc. If people like the marriage for its permanency, making it transient surely devalues it.
Well, a lot of things have supposedly "devalued" marriage, but it still has enormous cultural value (and it's usually quite a process to both get married and get divorced).
On May 01 2015 09:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Unless the exit option is counter to the idea of marriage itself: lifelong commitment, 'til death do us part, etc. If people like the marriage for its permanency, making it transient surely devalues it.
the idea of starting a business is that the business will succeed and be profitable for years to come, but it's completely irrational and even irresponsible to not account at all for the possibility that your business could fail despite your best efforts and intentions. in fact, people have ruined their life by doing exactly that - not accounting for the worst case scenario - just like people have ruined their lives by getting stuck in loveless marriages.
basically what you're saying sounds like "well, if you're so up your own ass about your loving relationship, there should be consequences if you ever end up feeling differently, because, like, that'll show you, man!" i'm not sure i really follow the logic.
and again i'm saying this as someone who's still totally in love with his wife and completely committed to being with her forever. just because it's working amazingly for me doesn't mean i think anyone else should be forcing something they're not happy with just because they wanted to get married at one point.
i think a lot of people with bad relationship histories take a kind of sick pleasure in shitting on the idea of marriage and monogamy because of latent issues they haven't resolved, but that's just me.
On May 01 2015 10:44 jinorazi wrote: people seem to forget marriage is a means to an end, end being a prosperous family.
??? no?? unless you count a husband and wife as a "family" in and of themselves (which i personally would, but not sure if you mean it that way) then you're not correct at all. i don't want kids, my wife doesn't want kids, and i know other couples who feel the same and still wanted to be married because... wait for it... we're in love and want to be together forever
Marriage; A proposition bet offered to your partner in which you wager 50% of your net worth against time that you and your partner will remain happy together until death.
On May 01 2015 03:19 reki- wrote: Never get married in the USA (as a man) is what I'm thinking
If you live in Canada you need to reduce that to "don't ever move in with a woman", because if you live with someone for I think 3 years you're considered married according to common law.
On May 01 2015 06:42 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On May 01 2015 03:49 Chairman Ray wrote: On a slightly different note, in the US, is there any point for two individuals who both work and have health benefits to get married? The tax penalties are a pain in the butt.
Uh, what? There are massive financial benefits to being married compared to being single.
This post just screams "I am 14-19ish years old and have no clue what I am talking about, but because I am a teenager I think I know everything".
Doesn't really matter. People who want longer commitments will find someone who feels the same and people who bounce around will bounce around. The only thing that should stop is cultural pressure for marriage as something defined in a very narrow and specific way and as something you must do or you are weird.
Yea, a lot of threads talking about marriage/relationships end up like this on the internet; hipsters, nerds, or otherwise bitter individuals that want to make sweeping negative statements about relationships/marriage, usually born out of bitterness and immaturity.
Marriage can be done for a lot of reasons. The problem is that most of the western world believes in marriage being done because of love, and people, in general, are really bad at this; if you want to marry truly for love/compatibility, you have to be really picky and make the right choice, or you'll end up bitter/unhappy/divorced. On the other hand, historically (and in many cultures still), marriages were arranged/pseudo-arranged and were more about convenience, political moves, financially motivated, etc. which actually makes it quite a bit easier.
Half-true imo. Divorces themselves are the main reason marriage is considered a terrible idea now. People have been getting married and living with a single person for the rest of their lives for centuries, but it's only recently that divorces have been considered acceptable.
I don't really buy this argument that divorce makes marriage less desirable. If anything, divorce being an option makes it easier for people to commit to a relationship because they know they can get out of it; that's all that divorce is, the option to choose to end the commitment you made. It doesn't really follow that having the ability to stop something would cause people to not do that thing at all. In fact, logic says that the exact opposite would happen.
That's illogical. You're saying marriage - something that's supposed to be a legal document stating your life-long commitment to another - is more desirable because it's easier to end that commitment.
Uh, yea.
If I (the average person) have the option of A or -A, but choosing A means I can never go back, then A is a much more serious commitment and I will be a lot more hesitant to do it until I am absolutely sure that I'm not making a mistake.
However, if I can go back on choosing A, then committing to choosing A in the first place isn't as big of a deal, so I am less stingy about choosing A.
This is really basic logic that applies to almost any choice we make; if a choice has more serious consequences that can't be reversed, we are more hesitant to make that choice than we are if we are able to reverse that decision.
...
Your mindset is the exact reason marriages are failing more often, lol. People don't care about the choice as much, which devalues the concept. Marriage, by definition, is supposed to be a serious commitment that you should be absolutely sure about before making the decision.
It's NOT desirable to have marriage viewed as being less of a serious commitment, because it undermines the entire purpose of marriage.
As for arranged marriages. I know a few people in my family who has had that, and their marriage is not any different, ie they range from good to bad. People who are in love also make bad choices.
As a crude example, if your mother fed you, she might feed you with food that you don't like, but is ultimately healthy (vegetables and fruits). When you were to buy your own food, sometimes you end up buying some really unhealthy food that you enjoy.
In this analogy, preference for food stands for love and your health stands for the health of the marriage.
On May 01 2015 08:33 brickrd wrote: i like having a ring to point to if someone is trying to flirt with me. i like that my wife can call me my husband to drop a hint if some creep is hitting on her.
if it's a woman, she's flirting with you if it's a guy, he's a creep hitting on her
just saying
On May 01 2015 14:27 Orcasgt24 wrote: Marriage; A proposition bet offered to your partner in which you wager 50% of your net worth against time that you and your partner will remain happy together until death.
On May 01 2015 10:46 Chairman Ray wrote: Do we have anybody on TL that is/was in an arranged marriage? Should totally do an AMA or something.
A long time online gaming friend of mine is currently in the process of getting married through an arranged marriage. It was really interesting hearing and talking with him about it. I don't really want to get too specific about the details, but I'll ask him and see if he might be interested in doing some kind of AMA on TL or Reddit.
From my understanding it seems that rather than the "western" concept of marriage where you're in love, and then you stay together later for necessity and needs, you first get married because of necessity and needs, and then later "fall in love" because of the commitment.
I had two friends getting married recently and before that I asked each of them what was the reason for them to get married.
- A said: the financial perks you are getting Honestly, that is a valid response. But it is like going to the casino, putting all your life's savings on red, but you can only win 20% of your bet.
-B said: There is no real reason for me, I can have everything without being married: love, family, commitment, etc. But my parents, relatives and my girlfriend pressure me into it.
Do you really think that 50% of the population are stupid idiots that marry the wrong person? Of course not, they marry because they have found THE ONE!
In a super-traditionalist society, marriage is still viable because divorce is basically a non-option (see e.g. India, Lybia, Chile). However, in Western societies this has become nullified and marriage has become a gamble.
Marriage is cool I love going to my friends' wedding parties. I'll have to return the favor at some point.
Of course it'll be with a girl I am absolutely certain about, was in the going on dates phase, dating phase, relationship phase than lived with for a good amount of years and she still makes me excited to put in the effort to court her after say 5years or more? Why not get married
For love/arrangement - love has to come first and foremost of course. Then logical reasons(how the girl and family fit each others values, how good are they for each others careers...). Then financial reasons
On May 01 2015 03:49 Chairman Ray wrote: On a slightly different note, in the US, is there any point for two individuals who both work and have health benefits to get married? The tax penalties are a pain in the butt.
Uh, what? There are massive financial benefits to being married compared to being single.
On May 01 2015 09:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Unless the exit option is counter to the idea of marriage itself: lifelong commitment, 'til death do us part, etc. If people like the marriage for its permanency, making it transient surely devalues it.
the idea of starting a business is that the business will succeed and be profitable for years to come, but it's completely irrational and even irresponsible to not account at all for the possibility that your business could fail despite your best efforts and intentions. in fact, people have ruined their life by doing exactly that - not accounting for the worst case scenario - just like people have ruined their lives by getting stuck in loveless marriages.
basically what you're saying sounds like "well, if you're so up your own ass about your loving relationship, there should be consequences if you ever end up feeling differently, because, like, that'll show you, man!" i'm not sure i really follow the logic.
and again i'm saying this as someone who's still totally in love with his wife and completely committed to being with her forever. just because it's working amazingly for me doesn't mean i think anyone else should be forcing something they're not happy with just because they wanted to get married at one point.
i think a lot of people with bad relationship histories take a kind of sick pleasure in shitting on the idea of marriage and monogamy because of latent issues they haven't resolved, but that's just me.
You misunderstand me, friend. I didn't advocate the removal the divorce option. On domestic violence alone it's indispensable. However, I reiterate the point that the more routine divorce becomes the less a marriage commitment resembles "I will love you forever" which is certainly part of the attraction to the institution to begin with. Some posters are pointing out that when 'til death do us part becomes 'til we get tired of each other it's not as meaningful or coveted an institution to join.
Stratos said that easy exit should make marriage more attractive, but if the difficulty of exit is part of the attraction it may not be the case. He's right that usually easy exit is an enhancement to thing X's value, but X's value in this case is to some degree predicated on permanency. And we ought to consider the effects of exit penalties by the state in the form of alimony etc. Easier exit raises those costs which also cuts against the argument that marriage conceived as temporary, rather than permanent, should be more worthwhile. About half of people over 18 have found the institution worthwhile, but the rate has been on a steady decline for some time now.
I have a friend who's more or less getting married so he can move to Japan with his girlfriend. He's been with the girl for a long time and AFAIK their relationship seems to be stable and 'love', but it still has me a little weirded out.
I'm engaged. Getting married in napa valley in October with no guests. We spent a not to much amount on us. The only issue with weddings is the average one costs 30k and that's just absurd. I am excited to be married and think it is a good thing. The criteria for marriage should be love, trust, alignment of long term goals, ability to support each other's individual goals, and to be selfless for your spouse not out of obligation or need, but want. (And she supports Bisu, GG)
On May 01 2015 03:19 reki- wrote: Never get married in the USA (as a man) is what I'm thinking
If you live in Canada you need to reduce that to "don't ever move in with a woman", because if you live with someone for I think 3 years you're considered married according to common law.
On May 01 2015 06:42 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On May 01 2015 03:49 Chairman Ray wrote: On a slightly different note, in the US, is there any point for two individuals who both work and have health benefits to get married? The tax penalties are a pain in the butt.
Uh, what? There are massive financial benefits to being married compared to being single.
This post just screams "I am 14-19ish years old and have no clue what I am talking about, but because I am a teenager I think I know everything".
Doesn't really matter. People who want longer commitments will find someone who feels the same and people who bounce around will bounce around. The only thing that should stop is cultural pressure for marriage as something defined in a very narrow and specific way and as something you must do or you are weird.
Yea, a lot of threads talking about marriage/relationships end up like this on the internet; hipsters, nerds, or otherwise bitter individuals that want to make sweeping negative statements about relationships/marriage, usually born out of bitterness and immaturity.
Marriage can be done for a lot of reasons. The problem is that most of the western world believes in marriage being done because of love, and people, in general, are really bad at this; if you want to marry truly for love/compatibility, you have to be really picky and make the right choice, or you'll end up bitter/unhappy/divorced. On the other hand, historically (and in many cultures still), marriages were arranged/pseudo-arranged and were more about convenience, political moves, financially motivated, etc. which actually makes it quite a bit easier.
Half-true imo. Divorces themselves are the main reason marriage is considered a terrible idea now. People have been getting married and living with a single person for the rest of their lives for centuries, but it's only recently that divorces have been considered acceptable.
I don't really buy this argument that divorce makes marriage less desirable. If anything, divorce being an option makes it easier for people to commit to a relationship because they know they can get out of it; that's all that divorce is, the option to choose to end the commitment you made. It doesn't really follow that having the ability to stop something would cause people to not do that thing at all. In fact, logic says that the exact opposite would happen.
That's illogical. You're saying marriage - something that's supposed to be a legal document stating your life-long commitment to another - is more desirable because it's easier to end that commitment.
Uh, yea.
If I (the average person) have the option of A or -A, but choosing A means I can never go back, then A is a much more serious commitment and I will be a lot more hesitant to do it until I am absolutely sure that I'm not making a mistake.
However, if I can go back on choosing A, then committing to choosing A in the first place isn't as big of a deal, so I am less stingy about choosing A.
This is really basic logic that applies to almost any choice we make; if a choice has more serious consequences that can't be reversed, we are more hesitant to make that choice than we are if we are able to reverse that decision.
...
Your mindset is the exact reason marriages are failing more often, lol. People don't care about the choice as much, which devalues the concept. Marriage, by definition, is supposed to be a serious commitment that you should be absolutely sure about before making the decision.
It's NOT desirable to have marriage viewed as being less of a serious commitment, because it undermines the entire purpose of marriage.
We're confusing each other.
I didn't say that it's desirable for people to think this way, I was just saying that this is how people in general think because of the fact that divorce is readily accessible.
I will marry when we'll reach the conclusion it's a snignificant jump in income. We've been living together for 4 years now but I have a friend who was kinda forced to marry before living or even having sex with his loved one. It works well for them, it works well for us. I think you should just find the right balance between your desires and families ones, if it's very important to have your family's support, specially for something which in the end is not THAT important if you choosed the right person.
EPT
just saying
