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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On October 23 2019 09:18 mikedebo wrote:
Re: Falling's "nonsensical character attacks": The trend I like least about how our campaigns continue to evolve is that all parties continue to push such garbage negative ads that focus so much on specific leaders (and ridiculous criticisms of them specifically) rather than on policy. Even the policy attacks are mostly fearmongering garbage. It's super frustrating to me. I know it has been found to be the most effective way to spend ad dollars and that's why they do it, but I can't stand it. Strongly agreed. They also need to go further with the 3rd party advertising ban. The June 29th deadline did work in that a bunch of those ads (most of them toxic attack ads like those horrible "He was never ready" ones) disappeared immediately. I'd push that date back even further. Make it 6 months or a year if it's a scheduled election like this one was. As was mentioned earlier in light of those robocalls telling people the wrong day for the election, put way stricter rules in place for robocall advertising for elections. There need to be consequences for this type of behaviour.
Or just ban political advertising outside of the actual election period itself for all levels of government. There are Saskatchewan Party ads running here on television and we're more than a year out from a provincial election still.
edit: There's a pretty amusing This Hour Has 22 Minutes segment with Trudeau and Mark Critch (though mostly just Mark Critch) drinking and Critch ranting at Trudeau about how big of a mess politics is. It's worth a watch. Critch literally opens it by calling the Liberals a hot mess. It's on CBC. Regardless of your feelings on Trudeau, you do have to give him a bit of credit for doing this kind of stuff. We certainly wouldn't see that type of thing with a certain head of state from the US.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 23 2019 11:50 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 09:18 mikedebo wrote:
Re: Falling's "nonsensical character attacks": The trend I like least about how our campaigns continue to evolve is that all parties continue to push such garbage negative ads that focus so much on specific leaders (and ridiculous criticisms of them specifically) rather than on policy. Even the policy attacks are mostly fearmongering garbage. It's super frustrating to me. I know it has been found to be the most effective way to spend ad dollars and that's why they do it, but I can't stand it. Strongly agreed. They also need to go further with the 3rd party advertising ban. The June 29th deadline did work in that a bunch of those ads (most of them toxic attack ads like those horrible "He was never ready" ones) disappeared immediately. I'd push that date back even further. Make it 6 months or a year if it's a scheduled election like this one was. As was mentioned earlier in light of those robocalls telling people the wrong day for the election, put way stricter rules in place for robocall advertising for elections. There need to be consequences for this type of behaviour.Or just ban political advertising outside of the actual election period itself for all levels of government. There are Saskatchewan Party ads running here on television and we're more than a year out from a provincial election still. @bolded Agree with what you wrote. They need to focus on making sure things are fair. It's sad just how little we hear about the actual platforms. I watched the english debate and these leaders were just making snide remarks at each other. Barely any substance!
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On October 23 2019 04:41 Rebs wrote: Its not a fair Comparison though. Theres double the players in Canada with real impact compared to the binary decisions the US has to make.
So the percent might be larger, but the raw numbers is where it matters for me in this situation. Although in the grander scheme its a meaningless statistic whos only value is being a talking point. meh, its a joke. both guys had a low popular vote and won any way.
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This election was pretty pathetic in terms of actual talking about platforms. People learned from down south that mudslinging was the best plan. Since I have lived here Conservative politics has always been about some degree of fear mongering ala Harper, but this cycle was just mind numbling terrible.
And the worst part is Liberals dropped to play the gutter game with them. Maybe it is the optimal strategy that you have to but it basically just made this election about a whole lot of nothing..
racist pm.. bigoted opposition leader, gaffe prone third wheel, irrelevant tree hugger, and those haughty "Frenches"
What seems good about it is most Canadians pretty much either just shrugged or were put off by it, which is a good sign.
The more Ive thought about it Ive realised something about progressives and the Pairies.
Sure the Prairies were always going to go Blue but the progressives need to realize that while saving the planet and climate change and all are important.
Some degree, maybe even alot of compromise may be necessary. You cant just shit on some one whose been used to nearly half a century of fossil fuel based prosperity and then tell them their quality of life is about to take the piss because "the planet" the messaging has to be a bit more conservative for lack of a better word. They need to find a way to leverage the wealth those resources produce into cleaner alternatives. They cant just flip the switch, the people there wont let them.
I dont agree with them but only because I have the privilege to do so. Problem is explaining that to the progressive base will be just as hard.
Rock ... hard place.. etc etc...
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On October 23 2019 13:23 Rebs wrote: racist pm.. bigoted opposition leader, gaffe prone third wheel, irrelevant tree hugger, and those haughty "Frenches"
nah, i don't think Trudeau is racist. https://tl.net/forum/general/480705-canadian-politics-mega-thread?page=73#1460 and based on how the polls didn't change right after trudeau's silly moves were revealed i'd say most canadians agree with me as you noted in your post.
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On October 23 2019 13:23 Rebs wrote: The more Ive thought about it Ive realised something about progressives and the Pairies.
Sure the Prairies were always going to go Blue but the progressives need to realize that while saving the planet and climate change and all are important.
Some degree, maybe even alot of compromise may be necessary. You cant just shit on some one whose been used to nearly half a century of fossil fuel based prosperity and then tell them their quality of life is about to take the piss because "the planet" the messaging has to be a bit more conservative for lack of a better word. They need to find a way to leverage the wealth those resources produce into cleaner alternatives. They cant just flip the switch, the people there wont let them.
I dont agree with them but only because I have the privilege to do so. Problem is explaining that to the progressive base will be just as hard.
Rock ... hard place.. etc etc...
I agree for the most part. I will say though that both sides (the environmentalist side and the oil side) both need to be willing to negotiate and potentially compromise. Just as it isn't reasonable to expect the oil industry to flip a switch and shut down immediately, it also unreasonable, and frankly unrealistic, for those militantly defending the oil industry to expect that the country halt progress on the environment just to attempt to bring back an industry that doesn't exist anymore in the way it previously did, and is unlikely to ever be back at where it was 10 years ago for myriad reasons. As alternative sources of energy improve and become cheaper, and electric cars take over from ICE cars, demand for oil-derived fuel will start to go down. Automation is also likely to continue to eat away at oil jobs. Alberta needs to start thinking about the inevitable transition away from an oil-based economy for the sake of its workers, but a portion of the electorate there doesn't seem to even want to entertain the thought of doing so, and instead are chasing after something that will be unlikely to return. Those six-figure oil jobs anyone with a high school diploma could get are not going to come back, or if they do they are likely to look completely different.
These people demanding that the carbon tax be repealed and regulations be cut to allow the oil industry to recover seem to be in denial over the fact that neither of these changes will fix the price of oil being low, or undo the technological changes many oil companies still operating in Alberta have made that have increased efficiency and automated away jobs. Kenney tried to boost the industry with a massive multi-billion dollar tax cut, and what has resulted from that? Husky got a near quarter billion dollar tax cut, and today just announced hundreds of layoffs in Calgary so they could buy back stock and boost dividends.
The Liberals' strategy of buying a pipeline and justifying it by saying they will use the profits to fund climate change initiatives was actually a decent compromise, but ever since they've been attacked by these two sides that are unwilling to compromise at all. They're essentially in a no-win scenario now because someone will get angry no matter what happens.
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On October 23 2019 09:18 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2019 23:04 Danglars wrote:On October 22 2019 16:18 Falling wrote: It would be nice if we could have someone that could turn the edge of the nonsensical character attacks. The old 'Conservatives are basically scary monsters, and probably secretly racist' with a little more vim and vigour.
Like, just embrace it as boring. "I get it- Conservatives are all monsters. All you got is character attacks. We're all bored." Careful what you wish for! But seriously, Canadians, you couldn’t do better than Trudeau? And how much credit does he get for managing to come back as a (likely) head of a minority government, compared to political campaign mistakes from his rivals? Oh, it's you. Are you aware of who the other party leaders were, or how they showed up in the campaign? Re: Falling's "nonsensical character attacks": The trend I like least about how our campaigns continue to evolve is that all parties continue to push such garbage negative ads that focus so much on specific leaders (and ridiculous criticisms of them specifically) rather than on policy. Even the policy attacks are mostly fearmongering garbage. It's super frustrating to me. I know it has been found to be the most effective way to spend ad dollars and that's why they do it, but I can't stand it. The reason I asked the question was in hope for answers, and I'm very glad there were other posters in the thread willing to do me that service. I certainly wouldn't ask about the characters and politics if I already had closely followed their figures and campaigns. Cheers.
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On October 24 2019 01:59 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 09:18 mikedebo wrote:On October 22 2019 23:04 Danglars wrote:On October 22 2019 16:18 Falling wrote: It would be nice if we could have someone that could turn the edge of the nonsensical character attacks. The old 'Conservatives are basically scary monsters, and probably secretly racist' with a little more vim and vigour.
Like, just embrace it as boring. "I get it- Conservatives are all monsters. All you got is character attacks. We're all bored." Careful what you wish for! But seriously, Canadians, you couldn’t do better than Trudeau? And how much credit does he get for managing to come back as a (likely) head of a minority government, compared to political campaign mistakes from his rivals? Oh, it's you. Are you aware of who the other party leaders were, or how they showed up in the campaign? Re: Falling's "nonsensical character attacks": The trend I like least about how our campaigns continue to evolve is that all parties continue to push such garbage negative ads that focus so much on specific leaders (and ridiculous criticisms of them specifically) rather than on policy. Even the policy attacks are mostly fearmongering garbage. It's super frustrating to me. I know it has been found to be the most effective way to spend ad dollars and that's why they do it, but I can't stand it. The reason I asked the question was in hope for answers, and I'm very glad there were other posters in the thread willing to do me that service. I certainly wouldn't ask about the characters and politics if I already had closely followed their figures and campaigns. Cheers.
If that's the tone you take when you're asking for someone to do you a favor, that's really something. Cheers.
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No he isnt, None of those things are true,. but thats what dominated the platforms and the media cycles. It was so pathetically American it was extremely off putting to both me and I think Canadians in general. So I hope that forces the narrative away from these sorts of tactics in the future. Older conservatives never played divisive politics and looked for people who matches their values regardless of where they were from or what they looked like. This election didnt have the same vibe.
Thats why I said it was an election where a whole lot was of of "nothing" was the dominant conversation.
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On October 24 2019 03:00 mikedebo wrote: If that's the tone you take when you're asking for someone to do you a favor, that's really something. Cheers.
tough crowd in here. 
Anyhow,
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/election-brought-out-canadas-worst-tendencies/600511/ I disagree with this. The 2 major parties moved towards the middle in an effort to win the center-right, center, and center-left voters. Right wing voters made the proper strategic choice and voted Conservative rather than for that right wing party led by Bernier. Canadians ignored the blackface stupidity and didn't get swept up in any firestorm the click-bait media tried to create.
Canada had a good election campaign and a good election.
Its nice to see guys like Patrick Brown, Doug Ford, and Justin Trudeau get elected. Canadians are doing a good job of ignoring twitter, social media, and click-bait driven sensationalism.
On October 24 2019 03:29 Rebs wrote: Thats why I said it was an election where a whole lot was of of "nothing" was the dominant conversation.
nah, i think there were lots of fruitful discussions. they are out there .. its up to you to go and find them and avoid the click-bait mainstream media.
I prefer to dig around and figure out what is really going on. media is transforming before us. Citizens need to do their own research. Gone are the days you passively sit in front of a Cathode Ray Tube watching CBC and expecting to get fed the gospel truth.
I think Trudeau and the Liberals "read the room" correctly. I think this was a good election process and I think Trudeau will react accordingly. He is not ignoring the sea of blue...
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On October 24 2019 03:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:tough crowd in here. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/election-brought-out-canadas-worst-tendencies/600511/I disagree with this. The 2 major parties moved towards the middle in an effort to win the center-right, center, and center-left voters. Right wing voters made the proper strategic choice and voted Conservative rather than for that right wing party led by Bernier. Canadians ignored the blackface stupidity and didn't get swept up in any firestorm the click-bait media tried to create. Canada had a good election campaign and a good election. Its nice to see guys like Patrick Brown, Doug Ford, and Justin Trudeau get elected. Canadians are doing a good job of ignoring twitter, social media, and click-bait driven sensationalism. Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 03:29 Rebs wrote: Thats why I said it was an election where a whole lot was of of "nothing" was the dominant conversation.
nah, i think there were lots of fruitful discussions. they are out there .. its up to you to go and find them and avoid the click-bait mainstream media. I prefer to dig around and figure out what is really going on. media is transforming before us. Citizens need to do their own research. Gone are the days you passively sit in front of a Cathode Ray Tube watching CBC and expecting to get fed the gospel truth. I think Trudeau and the Liberals "read the room" correctly. I think this was a good election process and I think Trudeau will react accordingly. He is not ignoring the sea of blue...
Yes ofcourse they are fruitful conversations. You cant actually govern without preparing policy and your gonna want to talk about it when you do.
But you are making my point, you shouldnt have to go looking for them.
They didnt shape the narrative of peoples decision making as much as it should, what shaped it more was people just being irritated by the situation and making their minds based on what made the most sense to them "despite" this campaign trying otherwise.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2019 03:58 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 03:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:tough crowd in here. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/election-brought-out-canadas-worst-tendencies/600511/I disagree with this. The 2 major parties moved towards the middle in an effort to win the center-right, center, and center-left voters. Right wing voters made the proper strategic choice and voted Conservative rather than for that right wing party led by Bernier. Canadians ignored the blackface stupidity and didn't get swept up in any firestorm the click-bait media tried to create. Canada had a good election campaign and a good election. Its nice to see guys like Patrick Brown, Doug Ford, and Justin Trudeau get elected. Canadians are doing a good job of ignoring twitter, social media, and click-bait driven sensationalism. On October 24 2019 03:29 Rebs wrote: Thats why I said it was an election where a whole lot was of of "nothing" was the dominant conversation.
nah, i think there were lots of fruitful discussions. they are out there .. its up to you to go and find them and avoid the click-bait mainstream media. I prefer to dig around and figure out what is really going on. media is transforming before us. Citizens need to do their own research. Gone are the days you passively sit in front of a Cathode Ray Tube watching CBC and expecting to get fed the gospel truth. I think Trudeau and the Liberals "read the room" correctly. I think this was a good election process and I think Trudeau will react accordingly. He is not ignoring the sea of blue... Yes ofcourse they are fruitful conversations. You cant actually govern with preparing policy and your gonna want to talk about it. But you are making my point, you shouldnt have to go looking for them. I They didnt shape the narrative of peoples decision making as much as it should, what shaped it more was people just being irritated by the situation and making their minds based on what made the most sense to them "despite" this campaign trying otherwise. Indeed. This election feels like the worst in a while.
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Now I'm seeing some negativity and cyncism about the Canadian democratic process. Its as if things are really bad right now and things were better `back in the old days`. Well, things have been pretty crazy for many decades. Here is an indicator of just how crazy and topsy turvy the world of politics was 40 years ago. + Show Spoiler +
some people say this election was "bad". I say : "same shit... different decade" Please cheer up everyone.... things ain't so bad.
On October 24 2019 03:58 Rebs wrote: But you are making my point, you shouldnt have to go looking for them. I
Knowledge is always earned. Knowledge is never handed out for free. You should always do your own research and your own digging. Don't expect to be fed the truth from some authority. Figure it out yourself. Then act accordingly.
Widening the scope of this discussion.. living consciously and thinking independently is a key pillar of self esteem. Furthermore, its kind of fun to view a issue from multiple different perspectives to gain a fuller understanding of things. That will never get 'pumped into you' by 1 single documentary show on TVO. You gotta do that yourself.
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On October 24 2019 03:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 03:00 mikedebo wrote: If that's the tone you take when you're asking for someone to do you a favor, that's really something. Cheers.
tough crowd in here.  I have the best fans! I do want to funnel their strange shock at asking questions in a foreign country's politics thread into restating my gratitude those that already answered. I had no idea about the Ontario/Quebec divide.
Canadian politics is not my forte. I only see the stories that break international headlines, or are brought up by friends I have living over there (Insane housing situation in Vancouver suburbs, NFL/CFL, purchasing power wrt foreign goods). The second recent thing I liked reading here was struggles in public employee funding, which is something the US also struggles with--particularlry regarding lavish pensions.
Should I expect anything particularly crazy from the Bloc Quebecois now that they're in a governing alliance? WaPo was talking about mutually supported social policies. + Show Spoiler [WaPo] + When did Canada formally become the left-wing country of popular stereotype? The long reign of former prime minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who governed from the late 1960s to the mid-1980s, is usually considered the critical period, but we can be more specific.
In 1972, Trudeau won the narrowest second term in Canadian history, winning only 109 seats in Parliament to the Conservative Party’s 107. This necessitated an alliance with the further-left New Democrats for a workable legislative majority.
Accordingly, from 1972 to 1974, notes David Good in Parliamentary Review, “every policy proposal and all legislation was discussed between the two parties, and only when agreement was reached did the Liberal government introduce the bill confident that with NDP support it would pass.” Government spending spiked more than 27 percent (still one of the steepest increases ever), protectionism was institutionalized through the Foreign Investment Review Agency, a state-run oil company was founded and the Office of Native Claims saw Ottawa adopt a freshly accommodating posture towards aboriginal assertions of sovereignty over land and resources.
Though Trudeau regained his governing majority in 1974, lines had been crossed, and many bells of activist government could not be un-rung.
With uncanny similarity, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now replicated his father’s fate with an electoral outcome equally destined to push Canada sharply leftward.
Awarded a second term but robbed of his parliamentary majority, a Trudeau must once again rely on the support of smaller left-wing parties to govern, in this case both the New Democrats and the unexpectedly resurgent Bloc Quebecois.
Tough action on climate change at the expense of Canada’s Alberta-based fossil fuel industry will likely top their list of priorities. Trudeau has mused about “phasing out” Albertan oil in the past; Parliament’s new power-brokers are considerably less patient.
During the campaign, Bloc leader Yves-François Blanchet proposed a radical redistributionist scheme wherein vindictive emissions taxes would be levied on Albertan oil to subsidize new spending in Quebec. The New Democrats, meanwhile, have been steadfast in their opposition to the expansion of the Trans Mountain pipeline linking Alberta to the Pacific coast — one of the few energy projects Trudeau has endorsed. These are the baselines from which future negotiations must start.
Dramatic hikes in domestic spending will be similarly on the table. “A lot of times when people hear balanced budgets, they hear austerity and they hear cutting their services — and I don’t believe in that,” said New Democrat head Jagmeet Singh as he unveiled his party platform, which promised a CA $32.7 billion deficit. The prime minister agrees, having run a campaign heavy on demagoguery against “Conservative cuts,” after brazenly abandoning a 2015 election promise to have the budget balanced by now.
Presumably, these two spend-happy leaders will find common cause pursuing national Pharmacare, which both have endorsed. With a price tag estimated for at least CA $15 billion annually, it would represent the most costly, redundant and ideological expansion of public healthcare in decades, as Ottawa seeks to provide a service most Canadians feel is adequately handled by private insurance.
A left-wing parliamentary alliance will beget cultural consequences too, including further consolidation of the protected status of French Canadians as the “first among equals” in Canada’s hierarchy of minorities.
The Bloc campaign was aggressive in its defense of the so-called secularism law passed by Quebec’s chauvinistic premier, which denies government jobs to anyone dressed in overtly religious fashion, including turbaned men and hijab-clad women. The Bloc’s strong parliamentary presence will likely intimidate Trudeau even further away from contesting this than he already is, thereby strengthening Quebec’s right to practice a bossy and assimilationist flavor of multiculturalism other provinces cannot.
Official bilingualism — which is to say, mandatory requirements for French fluency for Canadian public servants — was already on course to be expanded by the Trudeau government. With the need to deflate separatist sails an always front-of-mind concern for this uniquely Quebec-obsessed prime minister, expect future language legislation to be preposterously strict, knowing it will be under the Bloc’s critical eye.
Along with protections for Quebec particularism, a second Trudeau term will presumably also further institutionalize “reconciliation” with Canada’s indigenous peoples as a purported core of the national identity. This will likely mean an end to even nominal federal resistance to even the most audacious aboriginal assertions of territorial jurisdiction or demands for financial compensation. Adopting such a preemptively conciliatory posture will be deeply consequential both economically and legally, but also visibly, as the NDP-backed Liberal administration uses Ottawa’s powers of symbolism and ceremony to entrench restitution for an ongoing “genocide” as the country’s defining theme.
The one party that will play no role in any of this is Elizabeth May’s Green Party. Winning only three seats on Monday, it will be mathematically impossible for Green votes to be relevant in any legislative scenario.
Though three parliamentary seats is the most significant accomplishment of the Green Party’s nearly four-decade existence, there are signs May’s grating pride in her party’s chronically meager achievements have finally exhausted the press. Now undeniably stale after running four elections as party boss, her tired rerun of a campaign was widely panned, and her inability to “really, finally, truly” make a breakthrough this time was not sympathetically received. Retirement pressure is now open.
Perhaps a small cause for smiles in a night that otherwise offered Conservatives few.
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On October 24 2019 05:00 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 03:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 24 2019 03:00 mikedebo wrote: If that's the tone you take when you're asking for someone to do you a favor, that's really something. Cheers.
tough crowd in here.  I have the best fans! I do want to funnel their strange shock at asking questions in a foreign country's politics thread into restating my gratitude those that already answered. I had no idea about the Ontario/Quebec divide. Canadian politics is not my forte. I only see the stories that break international headlines, or are brought up by friends I have living over there (Insane housing situation in Vancouver suburbs, NFL/CFL, purchasing power wrt foreign goods). The second recent thing I liked reading here was struggles in public employee funding, which is something the US also struggles with--particularlry regarding lavish pensions. Should I expect anything particularly crazy from the Bloc Quebecois now that they're in a governing alliance? WaPo was talking about mutually supported social policies. + Show Spoiler [WaPo] + When did Canada formally become the left-wing country of popular stereotype? The long reign of former prime minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who governed from the late 1960s to the mid-1980s, is usually considered the critical period, but we can be more specific.
In 1972, Trudeau won the narrowest second term in Canadian history, winning only 109 seats in Parliament to the Conservative Party’s 107. This necessitated an alliance with the further-left New Democrats for a workable legislative majority.
Accordingly, from 1972 to 1974, notes David Good in Parliamentary Review, “every policy proposal and all legislation was discussed between the two parties, and only when agreement was reached did the Liberal government introduce the bill confident that with NDP support it would pass.” Government spending spiked more than 27 percent (still one of the steepest increases ever), protectionism was institutionalized through the Foreign Investment Review Agency, a state-run oil company was founded and the Office of Native Claims saw Ottawa adopt a freshly accommodating posture towards aboriginal assertions of sovereignty over land and resources.
Though Trudeau regained his governing majority in 1974, lines had been crossed, and many bells of activist government could not be un-rung.
With uncanny similarity, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now replicated his father’s fate with an electoral outcome equally destined to push Canada sharply leftward.
Awarded a second term but robbed of his parliamentary majority, a Trudeau must once again rely on the support of smaller left-wing parties to govern, in this case both the New Democrats and the unexpectedly resurgent Bloc Quebecois.
Tough action on climate change at the expense of Canada’s Alberta-based fossil fuel industry will likely top their list of priorities. Trudeau has mused about “phasing out” Albertan oil in the past; Parliament’s new power-brokers are considerably less patient.
During the campaign, Bloc leader Yves-François Blanchet proposed a radical redistributionist scheme wherein vindictive emissions taxes would be levied on Albertan oil to subsidize new spending in Quebec. The New Democrats, meanwhile, have been steadfast in their opposition to the expansion of the Trans Mountain pipeline linking Alberta to the Pacific coast — one of the few energy projects Trudeau has endorsed. These are the baselines from which future negotiations must start.
Dramatic hikes in domestic spending will be similarly on the table. “A lot of times when people hear balanced budgets, they hear austerity and they hear cutting their services — and I don’t believe in that,” said New Democrat head Jagmeet Singh as he unveiled his party platform, which promised a CA $32.7 billion deficit. The prime minister agrees, having run a campaign heavy on demagoguery against “Conservative cuts,” after brazenly abandoning a 2015 election promise to have the budget balanced by now.
Presumably, these two spend-happy leaders will find common cause pursuing national Pharmacare, which both have endorsed. With a price tag estimated for at least CA $15 billion annually, it would represent the most costly, redundant and ideological expansion of public healthcare in decades, as Ottawa seeks to provide a service most Canadians feel is adequately handled by private insurance.
A left-wing parliamentary alliance will beget cultural consequences too, including further consolidation of the protected status of French Canadians as the “first among equals” in Canada’s hierarchy of minorities.
The Bloc campaign was aggressive in its defense of the so-called secularism law passed by Quebec’s chauvinistic premier, which denies government jobs to anyone dressed in overtly religious fashion, including turbaned men and hijab-clad women. The Bloc’s strong parliamentary presence will likely intimidate Trudeau even further away from contesting this than he already is, thereby strengthening Quebec’s right to practice a bossy and assimilationist flavor of multiculturalism other provinces cannot.
Official bilingualism — which is to say, mandatory requirements for French fluency for Canadian public servants — was already on course to be expanded by the Trudeau government. With the need to deflate separatist sails an always front-of-mind concern for this uniquely Quebec-obsessed prime minister, expect future language legislation to be preposterously strict, knowing it will be under the Bloc’s critical eye.
Along with protections for Quebec particularism, a second Trudeau term will presumably also further institutionalize “reconciliation” with Canada’s indigenous peoples as a purported core of the national identity. This will likely mean an end to even nominal federal resistance to even the most audacious aboriginal assertions of territorial jurisdiction or demands for financial compensation. Adopting such a preemptively conciliatory posture will be deeply consequential both economically and legally, but also visibly, as the NDP-backed Liberal administration uses Ottawa’s powers of symbolism and ceremony to entrench restitution for an ongoing “genocide” as the country’s defining theme.
The one party that will play no role in any of this is Elizabeth May’s Green Party. Winning only three seats on Monday, it will be mathematically impossible for Green votes to be relevant in any legislative scenario.
Though three parliamentary seats is the most significant accomplishment of the Green Party’s nearly four-decade existence, there are signs May’s grating pride in her party’s chronically meager achievements have finally exhausted the press. Now undeniably stale after running four elections as party boss, her tired rerun of a campaign was widely panned, and her inability to “really, finally, truly” make a breakthrough this time was not sympathetically received. Retirement pressure is now open.
Perhaps a small cause for smiles in a night that otherwise offered Conservatives few.
That guy's a heavily anti-Quebec Op-Ed writer, so take whatever he writes with a shovelful of salt.
I wouldn't expect anything too crazy from the Bloc given that the Liberals don't need the Bloc since they have the NDP to pass left-wing policies. However the Bloc being so strong does mean that Liberals will likely be especially spineless when it comes to questions of 'laïcité' such as bill 21, and other similar 'French' related issues. It's very easy for the Libs to give in to stuff like that, since even though the majority of the country are against them in the abstract, they don't care about these issues nearly as much as Quebec does.
But there's also a lot of question marks around this new resurgent Bloc, so there's a bunch of possibilities. This new Bloc played heavily into the populist, rural, nationalistic card to win this election, so they're not even really left-wing. They'll push pro-Quebec policies whether those are right-wing, left-wing or centrist, so where they are ideologically is a bit up in the air and depends on who they think their core voter base is.
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Canada8988 Posts
On October 24 2019 10:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 05:00 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2019 03:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 24 2019 03:00 mikedebo wrote: If that's the tone you take when you're asking for someone to do you a favor, that's really something. Cheers.
tough crowd in here.  I have the best fans! I do want to funnel their strange shock at asking questions in a foreign country's politics thread into restating my gratitude those that already answered. I had no idea about the Ontario/Quebec divide. Canadian politics is not my forte. I only see the stories that break international headlines, or are brought up by friends I have living over there (Insane housing situation in Vancouver suburbs, NFL/CFL, purchasing power wrt foreign goods). The second recent thing I liked reading here was struggles in public employee funding, which is something the US also struggles with--particularlry regarding lavish pensions. Should I expect anything particularly crazy from the Bloc Quebecois now that they're in a governing alliance? WaPo was talking about mutually supported social policies. + Show Spoiler [WaPo] + When did Canada formally become the left-wing country of popular stereotype? The long reign of former prime minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who governed from the late 1960s to the mid-1980s, is usually considered the critical period, but we can be more specific.
In 1972, Trudeau won the narrowest second term in Canadian history, winning only 109 seats in Parliament to the Conservative Party’s 107. This necessitated an alliance with the further-left New Democrats for a workable legislative majority.
Accordingly, from 1972 to 1974, notes David Good in Parliamentary Review, “every policy proposal and all legislation was discussed between the two parties, and only when agreement was reached did the Liberal government introduce the bill confident that with NDP support it would pass.” Government spending spiked more than 27 percent (still one of the steepest increases ever), protectionism was institutionalized through the Foreign Investment Review Agency, a state-run oil company was founded and the Office of Native Claims saw Ottawa adopt a freshly accommodating posture towards aboriginal assertions of sovereignty over land and resources.
Though Trudeau regained his governing majority in 1974, lines had been crossed, and many bells of activist government could not be un-rung.
With uncanny similarity, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now replicated his father’s fate with an electoral outcome equally destined to push Canada sharply leftward.
Awarded a second term but robbed of his parliamentary majority, a Trudeau must once again rely on the support of smaller left-wing parties to govern, in this case both the New Democrats and the unexpectedly resurgent Bloc Quebecois.
Tough action on climate change at the expense of Canada’s Alberta-based fossil fuel industry will likely top their list of priorities. Trudeau has mused about “phasing out” Albertan oil in the past; Parliament’s new power-brokers are considerably less patient.
During the campaign, Bloc leader Yves-François Blanchet proposed a radical redistributionist scheme wherein vindictive emissions taxes would be levied on Albertan oil to subsidize new spending in Quebec. The New Democrats, meanwhile, have been steadfast in their opposition to the expansion of the Trans Mountain pipeline linking Alberta to the Pacific coast — one of the few energy projects Trudeau has endorsed. These are the baselines from which future negotiations must start.
Dramatic hikes in domestic spending will be similarly on the table. “A lot of times when people hear balanced budgets, they hear austerity and they hear cutting their services — and I don’t believe in that,” said New Democrat head Jagmeet Singh as he unveiled his party platform, which promised a CA $32.7 billion deficit. The prime minister agrees, having run a campaign heavy on demagoguery against “Conservative cuts,” after brazenly abandoning a 2015 election promise to have the budget balanced by now.
Presumably, these two spend-happy leaders will find common cause pursuing national Pharmacare, which both have endorsed. With a price tag estimated for at least CA $15 billion annually, it would represent the most costly, redundant and ideological expansion of public healthcare in decades, as Ottawa seeks to provide a service most Canadians feel is adequately handled by private insurance.
A left-wing parliamentary alliance will beget cultural consequences too, including further consolidation of the protected status of French Canadians as the “first among equals” in Canada’s hierarchy of minorities.
The Bloc campaign was aggressive in its defense of the so-called secularism law passed by Quebec’s chauvinistic premier, which denies government jobs to anyone dressed in overtly religious fashion, including turbaned men and hijab-clad women. The Bloc’s strong parliamentary presence will likely intimidate Trudeau even further away from contesting this than he already is, thereby strengthening Quebec’s right to practice a bossy and assimilationist flavor of multiculturalism other provinces cannot.
Official bilingualism — which is to say, mandatory requirements for French fluency for Canadian public servants — was already on course to be expanded by the Trudeau government. With the need to deflate separatist sails an always front-of-mind concern for this uniquely Quebec-obsessed prime minister, expect future language legislation to be preposterously strict, knowing it will be under the Bloc’s critical eye.
Along with protections for Quebec particularism, a second Trudeau term will presumably also further institutionalize “reconciliation” with Canada’s indigenous peoples as a purported core of the national identity. This will likely mean an end to even nominal federal resistance to even the most audacious aboriginal assertions of territorial jurisdiction or demands for financial compensation. Adopting such a preemptively conciliatory posture will be deeply consequential both economically and legally, but also visibly, as the NDP-backed Liberal administration uses Ottawa’s powers of symbolism and ceremony to entrench restitution for an ongoing “genocide” as the country’s defining theme.
The one party that will play no role in any of this is Elizabeth May’s Green Party. Winning only three seats on Monday, it will be mathematically impossible for Green votes to be relevant in any legislative scenario.
Though three parliamentary seats is the most significant accomplishment of the Green Party’s nearly four-decade existence, there are signs May’s grating pride in her party’s chronically meager achievements have finally exhausted the press. Now undeniably stale after running four elections as party boss, her tired rerun of a campaign was widely panned, and her inability to “really, finally, truly” make a breakthrough this time was not sympathetically received. Retirement pressure is now open.
Perhaps a small cause for smiles in a night that otherwise offered Conservatives few.
That guy's a heavily anti-Quebec Op-Ed writer, so take whatever he writes with a shovelful of salt. I wouldn't expect anything too crazy from the Bloc given that the Liberals don't need the Bloc since they have the NDP to pass left-wing policies. However the Bloc being so strong does mean that Liberals will likely be especially spineless when it comes to questions of 'laïcité' such as bill 21, and other similar 'French' related issues. It's very easy for the Libs to give in to stuff like that, since even though the majority of the country are against them in the abstract, they don't care about these issues nearly as much as Quebec does. But there's also a lot of question marks around this new resurgent Bloc, so there's a bunch of possibilities. This new Bloc played heavily into the populist, rural, nationalistic card to win this election, so they're not even really left-wing. They'll push pro-Quebec policies whether those are right-wing, left-wing or centrist, so where they are ideologically is a bit up in the air and depends on who they think their core voter base is.
The laïcité question, as far as it was talked about during the campaign, is pretty much all bulls*tt. The law will 95% go to the supreme court no matter what and it's not a few more bucks from the federal government that's gonna change that will change the outcome of the court.
It was a genius move by the Bloc to ask the other party's if they would challenge the bill 21 themselves, forcing them to make a stance on it, and putting them between Quebec and the rest of Canada, but in reality it doesn't matter if the government chose to challenge the law or not, someone will (and is).
The case is already slowly on it's way to the supreme court, where it's probably gonna be blocked.
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On October 24 2019 10:43 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 10:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 24 2019 05:00 Danglars wrote:On October 24 2019 03:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 24 2019 03:00 mikedebo wrote: If that's the tone you take when you're asking for someone to do you a favor, that's really something. Cheers.
tough crowd in here.  I have the best fans! I do want to funnel their strange shock at asking questions in a foreign country's politics thread into restating my gratitude those that already answered. I had no idea about the Ontario/Quebec divide. Canadian politics is not my forte. I only see the stories that break international headlines, or are brought up by friends I have living over there (Insane housing situation in Vancouver suburbs, NFL/CFL, purchasing power wrt foreign goods). The second recent thing I liked reading here was struggles in public employee funding, which is something the US also struggles with--particularlry regarding lavish pensions. Should I expect anything particularly crazy from the Bloc Quebecois now that they're in a governing alliance? WaPo was talking about mutually supported social policies. + Show Spoiler [WaPo] + When did Canada formally become the left-wing country of popular stereotype? The long reign of former prime minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who governed from the late 1960s to the mid-1980s, is usually considered the critical period, but we can be more specific.
In 1972, Trudeau won the narrowest second term in Canadian history, winning only 109 seats in Parliament to the Conservative Party’s 107. This necessitated an alliance with the further-left New Democrats for a workable legislative majority.
Accordingly, from 1972 to 1974, notes David Good in Parliamentary Review, “every policy proposal and all legislation was discussed between the two parties, and only when agreement was reached did the Liberal government introduce the bill confident that with NDP support it would pass.” Government spending spiked more than 27 percent (still one of the steepest increases ever), protectionism was institutionalized through the Foreign Investment Review Agency, a state-run oil company was founded and the Office of Native Claims saw Ottawa adopt a freshly accommodating posture towards aboriginal assertions of sovereignty over land and resources.
Though Trudeau regained his governing majority in 1974, lines had been crossed, and many bells of activist government could not be un-rung.
With uncanny similarity, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now replicated his father’s fate with an electoral outcome equally destined to push Canada sharply leftward.
Awarded a second term but robbed of his parliamentary majority, a Trudeau must once again rely on the support of smaller left-wing parties to govern, in this case both the New Democrats and the unexpectedly resurgent Bloc Quebecois.
Tough action on climate change at the expense of Canada’s Alberta-based fossil fuel industry will likely top their list of priorities. Trudeau has mused about “phasing out” Albertan oil in the past; Parliament’s new power-brokers are considerably less patient.
During the campaign, Bloc leader Yves-François Blanchet proposed a radical redistributionist scheme wherein vindictive emissions taxes would be levied on Albertan oil to subsidize new spending in Quebec. The New Democrats, meanwhile, have been steadfast in their opposition to the expansion of the Trans Mountain pipeline linking Alberta to the Pacific coast — one of the few energy projects Trudeau has endorsed. These are the baselines from which future negotiations must start.
Dramatic hikes in domestic spending will be similarly on the table. “A lot of times when people hear balanced budgets, they hear austerity and they hear cutting their services — and I don’t believe in that,” said New Democrat head Jagmeet Singh as he unveiled his party platform, which promised a CA $32.7 billion deficit. The prime minister agrees, having run a campaign heavy on demagoguery against “Conservative cuts,” after brazenly abandoning a 2015 election promise to have the budget balanced by now.
Presumably, these two spend-happy leaders will find common cause pursuing national Pharmacare, which both have endorsed. With a price tag estimated for at least CA $15 billion annually, it would represent the most costly, redundant and ideological expansion of public healthcare in decades, as Ottawa seeks to provide a service most Canadians feel is adequately handled by private insurance.
A left-wing parliamentary alliance will beget cultural consequences too, including further consolidation of the protected status of French Canadians as the “first among equals” in Canada’s hierarchy of minorities.
The Bloc campaign was aggressive in its defense of the so-called secularism law passed by Quebec’s chauvinistic premier, which denies government jobs to anyone dressed in overtly religious fashion, including turbaned men and hijab-clad women. The Bloc’s strong parliamentary presence will likely intimidate Trudeau even further away from contesting this than he already is, thereby strengthening Quebec’s right to practice a bossy and assimilationist flavor of multiculturalism other provinces cannot.
Official bilingualism — which is to say, mandatory requirements for French fluency for Canadian public servants — was already on course to be expanded by the Trudeau government. With the need to deflate separatist sails an always front-of-mind concern for this uniquely Quebec-obsessed prime minister, expect future language legislation to be preposterously strict, knowing it will be under the Bloc’s critical eye.
Along with protections for Quebec particularism, a second Trudeau term will presumably also further institutionalize “reconciliation” with Canada’s indigenous peoples as a purported core of the national identity. This will likely mean an end to even nominal federal resistance to even the most audacious aboriginal assertions of territorial jurisdiction or demands for financial compensation. Adopting such a preemptively conciliatory posture will be deeply consequential both economically and legally, but also visibly, as the NDP-backed Liberal administration uses Ottawa’s powers of symbolism and ceremony to entrench restitution for an ongoing “genocide” as the country’s defining theme.
The one party that will play no role in any of this is Elizabeth May’s Green Party. Winning only three seats on Monday, it will be mathematically impossible for Green votes to be relevant in any legislative scenario.
Though three parliamentary seats is the most significant accomplishment of the Green Party’s nearly four-decade existence, there are signs May’s grating pride in her party’s chronically meager achievements have finally exhausted the press. Now undeniably stale after running four elections as party boss, her tired rerun of a campaign was widely panned, and her inability to “really, finally, truly” make a breakthrough this time was not sympathetically received. Retirement pressure is now open.
Perhaps a small cause for smiles in a night that otherwise offered Conservatives few.
That guy's a heavily anti-Quebec Op-Ed writer, so take whatever he writes with a shovelful of salt. I wouldn't expect anything too crazy from the Bloc given that the Liberals don't need the Bloc since they have the NDP to pass left-wing policies. However the Bloc being so strong does mean that Liberals will likely be especially spineless when it comes to questions of 'laïcité' such as bill 21, and other similar 'French' related issues. It's very easy for the Libs to give in to stuff like that, since even though the majority of the country are against them in the abstract, they don't care about these issues nearly as much as Quebec does. But there's also a lot of question marks around this new resurgent Bloc, so there's a bunch of possibilities. This new Bloc played heavily into the populist, rural, nationalistic card to win this election, so they're not even really left-wing. They'll push pro-Quebec policies whether those are right-wing, left-wing or centrist, so where they are ideologically is a bit up in the air and depends on who they think their core voter base is. The laïcité question, as far as it was talked about during the campaign, is pretty much all bulls*tt. The law will 95% go to the supreme court no matter what and it's not a few more bucks from the federal government that's gonna change that will change the outcome of the court. It was a genius move by the Bloc to ask the other party's if they would challenge the bill 21 themselves, forcing them to make a stance on it, and putting them between Quebec and the rest of Canada, but in reality it doesn't matter if the government chose to challenge the law or not, someone will (and is). The case is already slowly on it's way to the supreme court, where it's probably gonna be blocked.
It's mostly grandstanding, but while the federal government's position about the issue won't influence the legal outcome, the stance it takes will have an impact on Canadian society. Additionally the federal government could in theory override the law (though that seems rather unlikely in practice).
And will the bill be blocked by the courts? I'm not so sure.
There's first of all the question of if the law is constitutional or not. But then there's the question of if the notwithstanding clause (which has pre-emptively been invoked) can be applied or not in this situation (which is a much more unclear question).
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TLADT24920 Posts
I mean, what did he expect after he went over the edge?
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