EPTI'm not shocked at all that he is gone. Sentiment toward him had become toxic from within his own party in recent weeks, and many thought that Scheer leading in the next election would guarantee Trudeau another win.
Canadian Politics Mega-thread - Page 77
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
I'm not shocked at all that he is gone. Sentiment toward him had become toxic from within his own party in recent weeks, and many thought that Scheer leading in the next election would guarantee Trudeau another win. | ||
Falling
Canada11563 Posts
Regardless of how much pressure went on behind the scenes, I'm glad he stepped down rather than taking it to a vote later in the year. Simpler and cleaner this way. Never pull a Diefenbaker. | ||
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PhoenixVoid
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
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JimmiC
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JimmiC
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17656 Posts
On January 09 2020 00:59 JimmiC wrote: Sanctions? Strong words? Nothing? No rash, knee jerk reactions. Do a thorough and complete investigation. Let the emotion of the situation fade somewhat. Canada will look pretty dumb if they go on a rampage against Iran and it turns out it was just an accident. "Swift Justice" in pretty dumb in general any way. According to my aerospace engineer friend, who ironically is from Iran, that plane sucks balls and is far more expensive to maintain than it should be given its meager capabilities. https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/ukrainian-airplane-crashes-near-iran-s-capital-killing-176-1.4757677 Introduced in the late 1990s, it is an older model than the Boeing 737 MAX, which has been grounded for nearly 10 months following two deadly crashes. Boeing built the aircraft that crashed Wednesday in 2016 and it last underwent routine maintenance on Monday, Ukraine International Airlines said. It'll be interesting to see if those with Life Insurance policies get paid out. If it is deemed a non-accident the Life Insurance companies won't want to pay. The last time Canada really fucked over Iran occurred way back in 1979. I don't think Iran considers Canada and the USA to be super best buds. Canada has had diplomatic relations with Iran for several decades while Iran and the USA have not had diplomatic relations since 1980. If I had to guess, right now, I'd say it was an accident. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
On January 09 2020 00:59 JimmiC wrote: With the Plane going down in Iran carrying so many Canadians what do you think our reaction should be if it comes out that Iran shot it down (which is looking more likely with Iran not releasing the black box plus the video). Sanctions? Strong words? Nothing? I'm not sure that anything makes a difference in this tragedy. I'm hoping for just condolences and an effort to cool things down not fire them up further. What a horrible thing to happen to so many. I don't really get why Iran would shut down a plane with mostly Iranian on board in retaliation to the US. Especially since Khamenei said that he wouldn't strike civilian positions to limit the risk of escalation. It's not like shooting down a civilian plane in your own airport is especially popular among the population either. I guess it could be a third party operation tho with the Canadian on board, but probably just plain bad timing, plane do crashes once in a while especially in those poorer countries. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
On January 09 2020 03:36 Nakajin wrote: I don't really get why Iran would shut down a plane with mostly Iranian on board in retaliation to the US. Especially since Khamenei, especially said that he wouldn't strike civilian positions, to limit the risk of escalation. It's not like shooting down a civilian plane in your own airport is especially popular among the population either. I guess it could be a third party operation tho with the Canadian on board, but probably just plain bad timing, plane do crashes once in a while especially in those poorer countries. It's a very high tension period of time. Accidents happen and it just takes one person pulling the trigger to down the plane. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/iran-ukrainian-plane-crash-canada-reaction-1.5418648 Just due to the time of year, there's a lot of Academics on that flight. 2 University of Alberta engineering faculty members, and likely a lot of graduate students. I know when I was in school, many of the masters students and phd candidates were Iranian. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
Things like this.. + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2020 00:59 JimmiC wrote: With the Plane going down in Iran carrying so many Canadians what do you think our reaction should be if it comes out that Iran shot it down (which is looking more likely with Iran not releasing the black box plus the video). Sanctions? Strong words? Nothing? I'm not sure that anything makes a difference in this tragedy. I'm hoping for just condolences and an effort to cool things down not fire them up further. What a horrible thing to happen to so many. There is an investigate team down there. At this point everywhere I see discussions on the topic.. people are doing the thing where they look for articles speculating in agreement with them and posing questions on what to do as if their specualation is fact.+ Show Spoiler + not all people its rather irritating. If an Iranian/s fucked up. Thats a serious problem and there should be consequences in addition to just diplomatic relations being cut off. This is not an ok mistake regardless of tensions and skirmishing.. If it is an accident, then its an accident. Either way we know fuck all.. except how horrible the incident itself is regardless of the circumstances.. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On January 10 2020 03:18 JimmiC wrote: Speculating is what you do until you know the answers. It only becomes a problem if you treat your speculation like fact which I have not done. Its also a problem if your specualation is based on stupid.+ Show Spoiler + ("it looks likely because they havent released black box" to paraphase.. like wtf? Its been a couple days. How often does black evidence every show up this quickly?) I can speculate that the moon is made of cheese, because I read it in a story book somewhere.. There is little value in discussing things just for the sake of discussion. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
Reuters reported that one U.S. official said U.S. satellites had detected the launch of two missiles shortly before the plane crashed, followed by an explosion. Two officials said Washington believed the downing of the plane was accidental. Is that enough that it moves from speculation to discussion? On the balance of probabilities, a near new plane, in a nation that has just launched an offensive strike and is expecting a retaliatory response crashing unexpectedly was likely shot down. Edit: Link to Trudeau's address, live in ~15 min https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/champagne-iran-plane-crash-1.5420398 | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On January 10 2020 03:36 Lmui wrote: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-missile-iran-1.5420736 Is that enough that it moves from speculation to discussion? On the balance of probabilities, a near new plane, in a nation that has just launched an offensive strike and is expecting a retaliatory response crashing unexpectedly was likely shot down. Edit: Link to Trudeau's address, live in ~15 min https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/champagne-iran-plane-crash-1.5420398 Anything coming from US officials and Ukrainians not on the ground is extremely suspect. There is little reason to take things from US Officials representing Govt Departments at face value at the moment. I mean really? Are we really accepting anything from this administration as truth at face value ? I guess then everything thats happened is justified then because the imminent threat bullshit was probably true aswell. This is the same US that sent a letter indicating the withdrawl of troops from Iraq and retracted it right after. What you just linked, "reuters knows a guy who knows a guy who said".... There is literally no reason for believing anything or speculating shit until they have something more concrete. So no not really.. but I mean sure you can balance your probabilities that way, none of those things are evidence, its still just uninformed speculation by trying to create your own 2 and 2 and add them up. Even if that ends up being correct which is well and truly possible, you are still just speculating based on zero evidence and a set of circumstances. This is whodunit failure 101.. The article you linked has Trudeau literally saying the words "its too early to speculate". | ||
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JimmiC
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Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
On January 10 2020 03:50 Rebs wrote: Anything coming from US officials and Ukrainians not on the ground is extremely suspect. There is little reason to take things from US Officials representing Govt Departments at face value at the moment. I mean really? Are we really accepting anything from this administration as truth at face value ? I guess then everything thats happened is justified then because the imminent threat bullshit was probably true aswell. This is the same US that sent a letter indicating the withdrawl of troops from Iraq and retracted it right after. What you just linked, "reuters knows a guy who knows a guy who said".... There is literally no reason for believing anything or speculating shit until they have something more concrete. So no not really.. but I mean sure you can balance your probabilities that way, none of those things are evidence, its still just uninformed speculation by trying to create your own 2 and 2 and add them up. Even if that ends up being correct which is well and truly possible, you are still just speculating based on zero evidence and a set of circumstances. This is whodunit failure 101.. The article you linked has Trudeau literally saying the words "its too early to speculate". Nah it say yesterday Trudeau said it was too early to speculate, today he said the evidence demonstrate it was an Iranian missile but he called for an investigation to make light of the situation. Seriously if it's true it's a major fucking fuck up, I can't imagine the Iranian government agreeing to an international investigation tho, no government want to admit they just killed over 200 of their citizen by accident. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On January 10 2020 05:12 JimmiC wrote: Because they had already located the black box? It would be stupid if they hadn't found it, but they had. Perhaps it would be valuable for you to read the sources and be up to date on the stories before you called others stupid, otherwise you just end up looking, well, stupid. Dont be a muppet, I know they found the black box. Its It's literally the first thing that's recovered. I was clearly implying that no one releases the information this quickly without first making sure they can cover their asses to the max. This is not a controversial action in itself without precedent. That's just the possessor party being diligent. So not giving out black box data yet isn't particularly alarming. There are plenty of other alarming things which point to a mistake but none of them are actually evidence ... Trudeau just came on and said there does appear to be evidence but nothing has actually been revealed yet. Although it seems like the consensus outside of Iran is building that it was shot down. Again that is an extraordinarily egregious mistake so I'm not hanging my hat on any speculation yet. Inspectors are already there. Its whether they are able to make the investigation in an unfettered manner is the question. Including access to they box. Stopping or hindering them is an automatic admission of guilt to a significant degree. Thats the kind of speculation I'd agree is legitimate On January 10 2020 05:27 Nakajin wrote: Nah it say yesterday Trudeau said it was too early to speculate, today he said the evidence demonstrate it was an Iranian missile but he called for an investigation to make light of the situation. Seriously if it's true it's a major fucking fuck up, I can't imagine the Iranian government agreeing to an international investigation tho, no government want to admit they just killed over 200 of their citizen by accident. Ukraine did it, but for them it was an easy out because the rebel elements were held responsible. That one even though the Ukrainians weren't at fault took a while to actually develop any real info to the public. | ||
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