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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 19 2015 02:32 GreenHorizons wrote: I wish everyone's moms, sisters, daughters, and wives could read what people are posting here and respond themselves. I'm pretty sure there would be some interesting responses. my mom's quite a traditionalist, and probably the biggest proponent of getting thicker skin. So.... | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23848 Posts
On March 19 2015 02:40 wei2coolman wrote: my mom's quite a traditionalist, and probably the biggest proponent of getting thicker skin. So.... How about sisters, daughter, wife/gf? | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On March 19 2015 02:32 GreenHorizons wrote: I wish everyone's moms, sisters, daughters, and wives could read what people are posting here and respond themselves. I'm pretty sure there would be some interesting responses. You seem to assume that people hold radically different opinions when posting on a forum online than in real life - that speaks volumes about what kind of person you are. I have had debates regarding feminism plenty of times and interestingly enough, TL is the first place where I have had to give up on having an actual debate regarding these issues because of the choir screaming "MEN CAN'T SPEAK ABOUT FEMINISM, YOUR OPINION ISN'T VALID, NO REASON FOR MRA'S THEY ARE ONLY HATESPEECH, LEAVE THE MEN'S ISSUES TO US FEMINISTS" or similar stuff all the way. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23848 Posts
On March 19 2015 02:46 Ghostcom wrote: You seem to assume that people hold radically different opinions when posting on a forum online than in real life - that speaks volumes about what kind of person you are. I have had debates regarding feminism plenty of times and interestingly enough, TL is the first place where I have had to give up on having an actual debate regarding these issues because of the choir screaming "MEN CAN'T SPEAK ABOUT FEMINISM, YOUR OPINION ISN'T VALID, NO REASON FOR MRA'S THEY ARE ONLY HATESPEECH, LEAVE THE MEN'S ISSUES TO US FEMINISTS" or similar stuff all the way. I don't "assume that people hold radically different opinions when posting on a forum online than in real life" so it doesn't "that speaks volumes about what kind of person you are." That was a weird accusation. I'm just saying I would love to hear from the women in the men's lives about what they think. I'd not be surprised that most of the 'anti-feminist' stuff comes out of 'traditional' households. On March 19 2015 02:59 Plansix wrote: Much like on topics of racism, I always look to the oppressed person for their views on the subject, rather pontificate on my own views. The same goes with feminism. Everyone is entitled to have opinions on the hardships facing oppressed groups. However, the majority of the debate in this thread has been focused on if these hardships are even real or exist, which is comical at best. And if that is the main trust of the argument, there isn't really a lot to discuss. Come on now, you know no one understands more about being a victim of racism or sexism than a bunch of mostly white guys? My only request is that we make references to sexism be called "playing the sex card"... Not for any reason other than I want people who are going to dismiss sexism in general to have to say "the sex card' | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On March 19 2015 02:35 Plansix wrote: There is nothing quite as amusing a a group of men talking about women's issues and feminism. It really never gets old. No more amusing than women/feminists talking about what masculinity is/should be. It's not like I just pull my knowledge/perspectives out of a hat though. I debate with women a lot, including feminists and occasionally, for the other guy, my mum/sister. My influences are as much female as they are male. You and other feminists do not represent the views of most women. On March 19 2015 02:59 Plansix wrote: Much like on topics of racism, I always look to the oppressed person for their views on the subject, rather pontificate on my own views. The same goes with feminism. Everyone is entitled to have opinions on the hardships facing oppressed groups. However, the majority of the debate in this thread has been focused on if these hardships are even real or exist, which is comical at best. And if that is the main trust of the argument, there isn't really a lot to discuss. Heaven forbid someone ask that you provide justification for your belief that the group of people 5x more likely to commit suicide (20x more likely to die in the workplace, discriminated against by the education system and the law courts, more likely to be on the streets, much more likely to work in hard labour) is less of a victim than their happier, longer lived counterparts? Nobody here has denied women have problems. You have denied that men have problems relative to women. 'Comical'. You may well be in a position such that your gender has little negative impact on your life, but that's not true for everybody else, and it's a flaw with your attitude that stops you from acknowledging this. The biggest impediment to a better future for men is people like you who refuse to empathise with them and act as though their issues are irrelevant. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On March 19 2015 03:00 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't "assume that people hold radically different opinions when posting on a forum online than in real life" so it doesn't "that speaks volumes about what kind of person you are." That was a weird accusation. I'm just saying I would love to hear from the women in the men's lives about what they think. I'd not be surprised that most of the 'anti-feminist' stuff comes out of 'traditional' households. I apologize for misinterpreting your post then, but it looked like a very thinly veiled attempt at shaming those in disagreement with you (i.e.: the women in your lives would be ashamed if they knew what you are posting). EDIT: Never mind, it won't lead to a reasonable discussion. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 19 2015 03:00 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't "assume that people hold radically different opinions when posting on a forum online than in real life" so it doesn't "that speaks volumes about what kind of person you are." That was a weird accusation. I'm just saying I would love to hear from the women in the men's lives about what they think. I'd not be surprised that most of the 'anti-feminist' stuff comes out of 'traditional' households. Come on now, you know no one understands more about being a victim of racism or sexism than a bunch of mostly white guys? My only request is that we make references to sexism be called "playing the sex card"... Not for any reason other than I want people who are going to dismiss sexism in general to have to say "the sex card' If I am going to have someone explain the oppression of women to me, I am totally going to listen to the group that has never and will never experience it. It’s how I know the information I am getting is totally unbiased. I also endorse the "playing the sex card" because its hilarious. | ||
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RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
On March 19 2015 01:58 bardtown wrote: It's probably not a coincidence that the feminist movement originated, and remains popular, in the middle classes, while in the working classes, where men suffer most, it is background noise. Or openly ridiculed - working class women preferring 'real men' capable of doing working class jobs and surviving in a working class neighbourhood? An interesting point that this raises is the idea that women prefer "'real men' capable of doing working class jobs"---doesn't this still place women in a subservient role, where they're still beholden to men for their livelihood? And in a disempowered position ("I need to stay married to my husband to maintain a liveable income"), it seems like it would be easy for domestic abuses to go unchecked. Which, to get back to the OP, is a dynamic---unchecked abuse---that the documentary seems to want to address in a very different setting. | ||
Falling
Canada11479 Posts
So this has gone waaay of course since last I checked in here. There is a massive derail going on here that needs to stop- and that is this current argument that men have had it much worse historically. I'm looking specifically at you bardtown as it has been your consistent M.O. There is a very consistent pattern on these sorts of topics that certain men take topics about harassed women and turn it around to make it all about themselves. Even supposing men have been equally oppressed, this would be tantamount to people with heart disease hopping onto every single thread about cancer, downplay the cancer and turn it into a discussion about heart disease. Once or twice might be understandable, but when it happens every. single. time. It at best comes across as incredibly self-focused and highly unsympathetic to the plight of others. So stop it. If you so feel the need, make your own thread about the historical oppression of men. Consider this a warning to people in general, but also to you specifically bardtown. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23848 Posts
On March 19 2015 03:23 Ghostcom wrote: I apologize for misinterpreting your post then, but it looked like a very thinly veiled attempt at shaming those in disagreement with you (i.e.: the women in your lives would be ashamed if they knew what you are posting). On personal accounts, whilst my father earns the most my mother has had an equally impressive career - she is just working for the state. My sister is a chemical engineer who has within 3 years of being hired as a scientist become leader of the department in an international company (China, USA, Brazil, Denmark) making her one of the youngest in the company. My girlfriend is finishing up her education but is in the hardest business program in Denmark with aspirations of becoming an ambassador. All women are against quota's and generally tired of being painted as victims due to their gender. The only traditional thing about my family is that my parents are married - but my mother kept her last name. EDIT: I'll be waiting for you to disclose just a fraction of what I have. Wow, I didn't know different countries actually had quotas for female representation...Probably not totally unrelated to why the US has been so slow to reflect the integration of women in politics that other nations have (you beat us to a female leader in Denmark). I am not a proponent of quotas or painting women as victims, at least any more than putting police in a neighborhood paints the neighborhood as victims. Acknowledging there is a problem and that men play a part in resolving it is not imo painting them as a victim, it's just acknowledging the reality. Feminism isn't free from the same problems of anything else. Just like there's tons of people ready to blame Obama every time they spill their coffee or fail micro with their reaper, there are feminists who will blame everything on everyone male. We should ignore both groups. Just for clarity, I was thinking more along the lines of telling women they are inferior because their brains are smaller type posts. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On March 19 2015 03:42 Falling wrote: Oh boy. So this has gone waaay of course since last I checked in here. There is a massive derail going on here that needs to stop- and that is this current argument that men have had it much worse historically. I'm looking specifically at you bardtown as it has been your consistent M.O. There is a very consistent pattern on these sorts of topics that certain men take topics about harassed women and turn it around to make it all about themselves. Even supposing men have been equally oppressed, this would be tantamount to people with heart disease hopping onto every single thread about cancer, downplay the cancer and turn it into a discussion about heart disease. Once or twice might be understandable, but when it happens every. single. time. It at best comes across as incredibly self-focused and highly unsympathetic to the plight of others. So stop it. If you so feel the need, make your own thread about the historical oppression of men. Consider this a warning to people in general, but also to you specifically bardtown. It's not self focused at all because I am not a victim of any of the abuses I am talking about. I have absolutely no personal interest in this line of reasoning. The question of whether one group is more oppressed than the other was brought up by others, not me. I am obliged to respond to that point because it establishes a fallacious foundation for asserting that women deserve preferential treatment in gaming and that their opinions should be weighted above those of men receiving the same abuse. Furthermore, I never said that men had it much worse. I questioned whether there was any basis to say that women had it worse. I am not interested in coming down on one side or the other on that point, I am simply questioning in the first place a bias, and in the second place whether the comparison has any relevance at all. I am under no obligation to feel sympathetic to the plight of people who get offended by trolls on Call of Duty - male or female. In more serious cases of harassment it goes without saying that I am in favour of punishments for the perpetrators. It really strikes me that people in this thread think I am the one being bigoted. I am one of the only people actually justifying statements rather than just making blunt assertions. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
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Falling
Canada11479 Posts
If you have no personal stake in the matter, then you should have no problem dropping the point and letting the thread move on. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
Tell people that you're black, or have a deep voice? More likely to get abuse. Have a female voice? More likely to get abuse. Tell people that you aren't heterosexual? More likely to get abuse. Have a noticeable accent in your voice? More likely to get abuse. Reveal your religion or nationality that isn't the majority? More likely to get abuse. Abuse is something that happens to everyone, but there's definitely a difference between the generic "I fucked your mom" comments and the "show me your tits, bitch" comments that are targeted specifically at women. It's also important that we actually TRY to put a stop to it. Not everybody believes that "just ignore it" is a viable solution, and there's always the question if such an attitude actually makes things better, or if it makes things worse. Either way, it's something that needs to be tackled in some way or another. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On March 19 2015 04:14 Falling wrote: @bardtown If you have no personal stake in the matter, then you should have no problem dropping the point and letting the thread move on. Look at the man keeping me down, feminists have infiltrated the administration, etc. I'm perfectly happy to move on; I think the point is sufficiently made that painting women as an oppressed group requires some justification beyond just unqualified intuition. On March 19 2015 04:18 Spawkuring wrote: In discussions like these, it should really go without saying that anything that notifies people that you aren't a white American male... You better believe you will get abuse as a white American male if you match with British kids. User was warned for this post | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On March 19 2015 04:14 Falling wrote: @bardtown If you have no personal stake in the matter, then you should have no problem dropping the point and letting the thread move on. You should tell that to Plansix and GreenHorizons really. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 19 2015 04:49 WhiteDog wrote: You should tell that to Plansix and GreenHorizons really. You can feel free to report any of my posts and see if the mods feel the same way. I have been pretty invested in talking about harassment in gaming and the documentary the entire time. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23848 Posts
On March 19 2015 04:49 WhiteDog wrote: You should tell that to Plansix and GreenHorizons really. lol I've just been popping in to see if we have moved passed men thinking 'ignore it' was actually a solution. Or if it kept going down the path of women being biologically deficient. Or if the whole "it's just as bad for us" was still floating around. I don't see how this has dragged on this long. I don't expect anyone to have any realizations here. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On March 19 2015 04:36 bardtown wrote: Look at the man keeping me down, feminists have infiltrated the administration, etc. I'm perfectly happy to move on; I think the point is sufficiently made that painting women as an oppressed group requires some justification beyond just unqualified intuition. The Matriarchy is real. | ||
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