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On March 19 2015 06:35 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 06:25 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 06:16 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:59 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:51 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:40 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:33 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:30 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:28 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:26 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
We prefer Feminist Illuminati. It more fitting to the role we play in the world.
If you don't mind me asking, because I'd rather not read though this whole thread, are you a female? Lol, No. I am a guy who happens to also think the issues women face are real and feminism helps everyone. So much like Terry Crew, I am a feminist(though I could stand to read more on the subject). Well, you should definitely read some stuff by Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin, and after that, you'll pretty much know where you stand on the subject of modern feminism. I've heard of both of them and I am aware of their views. I am pretty sure I know where I stand. But thanks for the suggested reading. lol, you totally went to Google. On March 19 2015 05:47 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:40 travis wrote:On March 19 2015 02:35 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 02:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
I wish everyone's moms, sisters, daughters, and wives could read what people are posting here and respond themselves. I'm pretty sure there would be some interesting responses.
There is nothing quite as amusing a a group of men talking about women's issues and feminism. It really never gets old. didn't you just say you're a man a few posts ago? Yep and I think GreenHorizon is as well. What is your point? I have never stated anything disparaging feminism or claiming it wasn't about equality. Those were specifically the people I was mocking, to be clear. I don't understand your logic here. Men who agree with feminism are allowed to discuss feminism but men who disagree with feminism aren't allowed to? Men who say feminism isn't about equality and try to paint is as some radical movement that is set on oppressing men are hilarious. I find them to be comical and I find their discussions on the matter much like whites in the US claiming that all these claims are racism are over blown. Its people who do not have to deal with the issue and never will telling those who do "its not a big deal". If people want to point out specific feminists that are too extreme or aggressive, I will happily talk about that. But people who point to Tumblr and a couple radical feminist who wrote books as proof the entire concept is about repressing men are tiresome and dull at this point. But we are way off topic and this thread is not about me or you. No, this thread is about all of us. And also, if it's possible for men to be feminists, then men should also be able to debate the merits of feminism, just like with any other philosophy. If your only argument is that all people are equal in principle, that's just called equality. If you're talking about a female-centric counterbalance to a male-centric society, then you're talking about feminism, which operates on the assumption that there is an institutionalized inequality between males and females. If there is such an institutionalization, then it would have to be torn down by a radical counter-movement. However, if such an institution-sponsored inequality is only theoretical in nature, but there is a material counter-movement, then you have a radical reactionary movement to tear down an imaginary enemy. You wrote a lot of words that basically boil down to: Feminism isn't about equality. And you're wrong. Just like addressing racism is about equality. Its not about making women better, its about making sure they are equal to men and that men are not pressured to feel "superior" to women. Terry Crew's breaks it down better than I can and hes like 20 time more awesome than me. http://www.damemagazine.com/2015/03/06/terry-crews-feminist-millions-have-died-because-male-pride Are you even reading what you're writing? ADDRESSING RACISM is about equality Addressing sexism is about equality (which I said) Feminism is not about equality. I mean, you can totally link more actors' opinions. I mean, I can link Madonna saying she's not a feminist but a humanist if you want to go that route. I mean, what do I know, I'm just a dumb woman, right?
Sorry you believe differently than me, but that is the way it is. Neither of us are going to change the others mind, so we might as well move on. Have a good day.
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On March 19 2015 05:40 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 02:35 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 02:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
I wish everyone's moms, sisters, daughters, and wives could read what people are posting here and respond themselves. I'm pretty sure there would be some interesting responses.
There is nothing quite as amusing a a group of men talking about women's issues and feminism. It really never gets old. didn't you just say you're a man a few posts ago?
Nice catch, travis, but I guess he already addressed this. The difference for him is he's right he's only agreeing, not disagreeing. If you disagree at some level or have something to add or even have an opinion about a disputed issue in feminism, all he can say is how quaint and amusing your opinion is.
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On March 19 2015 06:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 06:35 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 06:25 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 06:16 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:59 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:51 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:40 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:33 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:30 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:28 ninazerg wrote:
[quote]
If you don't mind me asking, because I'd rather not read though this whole thread, are you a female? Lol, No. I am a guy who happens to also think the issues women face are real and feminism helps everyone. So much like Terry Crew, I am a feminist(though I could stand to read more on the subject). Well, you should definitely read some stuff by Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin, and after that, you'll pretty much know where you stand on the subject of modern feminism. I've heard of both of them and I am aware of their views. I am pretty sure I know where I stand. But thanks for the suggested reading. lol, you totally went to Google. On March 19 2015 05:47 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:40 travis wrote:On March 19 2015 02:35 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 02:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
I wish everyone's moms, sisters, daughters, and wives could read what people are posting here and respond themselves. I'm pretty sure there would be some interesting responses.
There is nothing quite as amusing a a group of men talking about women's issues and feminism. It really never gets old. didn't you just say you're a man a few posts ago? Yep and I think GreenHorizon is as well. What is your point? I have never stated anything disparaging feminism or claiming it wasn't about equality. Those were specifically the people I was mocking, to be clear. I don't understand your logic here. Men who agree with feminism are allowed to discuss feminism but men who disagree with feminism aren't allowed to? Men who say feminism isn't about equality and try to paint is as some radical movement that is set on oppressing men are hilarious. I find them to be comical and I find their discussions on the matter much like whites in the US claiming that all these claims are racism are over blown. Its people who do not have to deal with the issue and never will telling those who do "its not a big deal". If people want to point out specific feminists that are too extreme or aggressive, I will happily talk about that. But people who point to Tumblr and a couple radical feminist who wrote books as proof the entire concept is about repressing men are tiresome and dull at this point. But we are way off topic and this thread is not about me or you. No, this thread is about all of us. And also, if it's possible for men to be feminists, then men should also be able to debate the merits of feminism, just like with any other philosophy. If your only argument is that all people are equal in principle, that's just called equality. If you're talking about a female-centric counterbalance to a male-centric society, then you're talking about feminism, which operates on the assumption that there is an institutionalized inequality between males and females. If there is such an institutionalization, then it would have to be torn down by a radical counter-movement. However, if such an institution-sponsored inequality is only theoretical in nature, but there is a material counter-movement, then you have a radical reactionary movement to tear down an imaginary enemy. You wrote a lot of words that basically boil down to: Feminism isn't about equality. And you're wrong. Just like addressing racism is about equality. Its not about making women better, its about making sure they are equal to men and that men are not pressured to feel "superior" to women. Terry Crew's breaks it down better than I can and hes like 20 time more awesome than me. http://www.damemagazine.com/2015/03/06/terry-crews-feminist-millions-have-died-because-male-pride Are you even reading what you're writing? ADDRESSING RACISM is about equality Addressing sexism is about equality (which I said) Feminism is not about equality. I mean, you can totally link more actors' opinions. I mean, I can link Madonna saying she's not a feminist but a humanist if you want to go that route. I mean, what do I know, I'm just a dumb woman, right? Sorry you believe differently than me, but that is the way it is. Neither of us are going to change the others mind, so we might as well move on. Have a good day.
You mock the guys but tell me to have a nice day. I don't feel like I'm being treated equally.
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On March 19 2015 06:49 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 06:37 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 06:35 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 06:25 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 06:16 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:59 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:51 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:40 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:33 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:30 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Lol, No. I am a guy who happens to also think the issues women face are real and feminism helps everyone. So much like Terry Crew, I am a feminist(though I could stand to read more on the subject). Well, you should definitely read some stuff by Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin, and after that, you'll pretty much know where you stand on the subject of modern feminism. I've heard of both of them and I am aware of their views. I am pretty sure I know where I stand. But thanks for the suggested reading. lol, you totally went to Google. On March 19 2015 05:47 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:40 travis wrote:On March 19 2015 02:35 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
There is nothing quite as amusing a a group of men talking about women's issues and feminism. It really never gets old. didn't you just say you're a man a few posts ago? Yep and I think GreenHorizon is as well. What is your point? I have never stated anything disparaging feminism or claiming it wasn't about equality. Those were specifically the people I was mocking, to be clear. I don't understand your logic here. Men who agree with feminism are allowed to discuss feminism but men who disagree with feminism aren't allowed to? Men who say feminism isn't about equality and try to paint is as some radical movement that is set on oppressing men are hilarious. I find them to be comical and I find their discussions on the matter much like whites in the US claiming that all these claims are racism are over blown. Its people who do not have to deal with the issue and never will telling those who do "its not a big deal". If people want to point out specific feminists that are too extreme or aggressive, I will happily talk about that. But people who point to Tumblr and a couple radical feminist who wrote books as proof the entire concept is about repressing men are tiresome and dull at this point. But we are way off topic and this thread is not about me or you. No, this thread is about all of us. And also, if it's possible for men to be feminists, then men should also be able to debate the merits of feminism, just like with any other philosophy. If your only argument is that all people are equal in principle, that's just called equality. If you're talking about a female-centric counterbalance to a male-centric society, then you're talking about feminism, which operates on the assumption that there is an institutionalized inequality between males and females. If there is such an institutionalization, then it would have to be torn down by a radical counter-movement. However, if such an institution-sponsored inequality is only theoretical in nature, but there is a material counter-movement, then you have a radical reactionary movement to tear down an imaginary enemy. You wrote a lot of words that basically boil down to: Feminism isn't about equality. And you're wrong. Just like addressing racism is about equality. Its not about making women better, its about making sure they are equal to men and that men are not pressured to feel "superior" to women. Terry Crew's breaks it down better than I can and hes like 20 time more awesome than me. http://www.damemagazine.com/2015/03/06/terry-crews-feminist-millions-have-died-because-male-pride Are you even reading what you're writing? ADDRESSING RACISM is about equality Addressing sexism is about equality (which I said) Feminism is not about equality. I mean, you can totally link more actors' opinions. I mean, I can link Madonna saying she's not a feminist but a humanist if you want to go that route. I mean, what do I know, I'm just a dumb woman, right? Sorry you believe differently than me, but that is the way it is. Neither of us are going to change the others mind, so we might as well move on. Have a good day. You mock the guys but tell me to have a nice day. I don't feel like I'm being treated equally.
B-but reverse sexism doesn't count!
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On March 19 2015 06:30 WhiteDog wrote:
"A comprehensive view of what women face" What does it even mean ? Do you think A WOMAN, with her subjectivity, is better placed than any of us to understand WHAT WOMEN face ? It has nothing to do with personnal experience, it's a collective reality that you can, and need to understand through statistical data and knowledge, not through the perspective of A PERSON and even more when talking about a group such as "women" that has no unified experiences. "What women face" doesn't exist, there's no common experience that all women face, aside maybe periods ? Tell me what's in common between your white girl-friends and the experience of a black girl living in the poorest neighborhood in the US ?
Feel like a rather immature vision of reality really.
You misunderstand what I meant. I'm saying a comprehensive view can't be established without a variety of opinions men and women included. I was just saying TL is not a place where you can get a comprehensive view (meaning from many different people from many walks of life).
The statistics are largely useless for the reasons mentioned before.
My point is without the perspective of a "black women from a poor neighborhood" (or a rape victim, or a successful businesswoman, etc...) we are missing tons of critical perspective you wont find in some statistic.
It might help some to think about it like employees discussing running a business. If you don't have anyone who actually runs a business in the conversation (or only 1 or 2) you are going to miss tons of important aspects. Doesn't mean employees can't come to reasonable conclusions on their own, just that they clearly aren't getting a full picture before they arrive at those conclusions.
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Iunno I always defined feminism to myself to just be anti-discrimination against women. Hell I'm a "masculinist" too, I'm against all kinds of discrimination as I'm sure everyone with a brain would agree with. I'm as against people using faggot as a slur as I am against targeting women with harassment. Call me optimistic but I think if we keep drawing attention to how its not cool eventually the bad people won't have a crowd laughing with them anymore. I really wish the reaction to watching women get harassed wasn't to say suck it up or ignore it, but more like wow those guys are ass holes and not cool.
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On March 19 2015 06:57 ComaDose wrote:
Iunno I always defined feminism to myself to just be anti-discrimination against women. Hell I'm a "masculinist" too, I'm against all kinds of discrimination as I'm sure everyone with a brain would agree with. I'm as against people using faggot as a slur as I am against targeting women with harassment. Call me optimistic but I think if we keep drawing attention to how its not cool eventually the bad people won't have a crowd laughing with them anymore. I really wish the reaction to watching women get harassed wasn't to say suck it up or ignore it, but more like wow those guys are ass holes and not cool.
Yeah, I think most people think that's what feminism means. But I'm just pro-fairness. I don't know why that has to be turned into a demagogue about who is getting discriminated against more. Harassment hurts everyone, period.
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The definition of feminism that I prefer is egalitarianism with a particular focus on women's issues. I'm sure there are plenty of feminists and non-feminists alike who would disagree with this definition, but the term is used so broadly these days that I think there is room for a lot of different definitions that are more or less equally valid.
After all, men benefit too when gender roles are less restrictive. Maybe as gender roles are relaxed they will stop forcing us down those mines : p
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On March 19 2015 07:01 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 06:57 ComaDose wrote:
Iunno I always defined feminism to myself to just be anti-discrimination against women. Hell I'm a "masculinist" too, I'm against all kinds of discrimination as I'm sure everyone with a brain would agree with. I'm as against people using faggot as a slur as I am against targeting women with harassment. Call me optimistic but I think if we keep drawing attention to how its not cool eventually the bad people won't have a crowd laughing with them anymore. I really wish the reaction to watching women get harassed wasn't to say suck it up or ignore it, but more like wow those guys are ass holes and not cool. Yeah, I think most people think that's what feminism means. But I'm just pro-fairness. I don't know why that has to be turned into a demagogue about who is getting discriminated against more. Harassment hurts everyone, period.
Yeah I kind of think of discrimination like a dirty house. We have to clean the whole house, but you always have to start somewhere. I think we all agree the house is dirty, it's mostly just arguing about how to clean it up.
I think the folly displayed here is essentially the "clean the whole house at the same time" argument which doesn't work there and wont work here either. I also don't think the "this room is dirtiest so we should start here" is a great plan either (we get trapped in an argument about which room is dirtier instead of actually cleaning anything up).
Makes sense to me to just figure out what matters to you and working on making sure your room is clean and helping others where you can. It seems wholly counterproductive to me to criticize people for trying to clean up whatever little section they wanted to tackle.
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On March 19 2015 07:07 Mercy13 wrote:
The definition of feminism that I prefer is egalitarianism with a particular focus on women's issues. I'm sure there are plenty of feminists and non-feminists alike who would disagree with this definition, but the term is used so broadly these days that I think there is room for a lot of different definitions that are more or less equally valid.
After all, men benefit too when gender roles are less restrictive. Maybe as gender roles are relaxed they will stop forcing us down those mines : p
I just don't like 'egalitarianism' because I'm a fuckin' hipster and it's too mainstream 4 me. I don't think gender roles are inherently 'good' or 'bad', but are just kind of there.
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On March 19 2015 07:22 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 07:07 Mercy13 wrote:
The definition of feminism that I prefer is egalitarianism with a particular focus on women's issues. I'm sure there are plenty of feminists and non-feminists alike who would disagree with this definition, but the term is used so broadly these days that I think there is room for a lot of different definitions that are more or less equally valid.
After all, men benefit too when gender roles are less restrictive. Maybe as gender roles are relaxed they will stop forcing us down those mines : p I just don't like 'egalitarianism' because I'm a fuckin' hipster and it's too mainstream 4 me. I don't think gender roles are inherently 'good' or 'bad', but are just kind of there.
I think gender roles are bad for the people that have to go against them to do what they want because they get extra flack.
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On March 19 2015 07:26 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 07:22 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 07:07 Mercy13 wrote:
The definition of feminism that I prefer is egalitarianism with a particular focus on women's issues. I'm sure there are plenty of feminists and non-feminists alike who would disagree with this definition, but the term is used so broadly these days that I think there is room for a lot of different definitions that are more or less equally valid.
After all, men benefit too when gender roles are less restrictive. Maybe as gender roles are relaxed they will stop forcing us down those mines : p I just don't like 'egalitarianism' because I'm a fuckin' hipster and it's too mainstream 4 me. I don't think gender roles are inherently 'good' or 'bad', but are just kind of there. I think gender roles are bad for the people that have to go against them to do what they want because they get extra flack.
Yeah, they can be bad, but aren't inherently bad.
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On March 19 2015 07:28 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 07:26 ComaDose wrote:On March 19 2015 07:22 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 07:07 Mercy13 wrote:
The definition of feminism that I prefer is egalitarianism with a particular focus on women's issues. I'm sure there are plenty of feminists and non-feminists alike who would disagree with this definition, but the term is used so broadly these days that I think there is room for a lot of different definitions that are more or less equally valid.
After all, men benefit too when gender roles are less restrictive. Maybe as gender roles are relaxed they will stop forcing us down those mines : p I just don't like 'egalitarianism' because I'm a fuckin' hipster and it's too mainstream 4 me. I don't think gender roles are inherently 'good' or 'bad', but are just kind of there. I think gender roles are bad for the people that have to go against them to do what they want because they get extra flack. Yeah, they can be bad, but aren't inherently bad.
I don't think of them as bad as much as just lazy. I think the laziness of them is inherently bad.
I want my balls to swing freely in a kilt (especially with summer coming) without having to explain that Irish people wear kilts too, there are black Irish people, and wearing a kilt isn't "gender bending". Or explaining anything beyond it's more comfortable.
It would be nice for people to stop trying to shove people in boxes and let them be who they are (so long as they aren't harming others against their will).
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On March 19 2015 06:49 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 06:37 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 06:35 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 06:25 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 06:16 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:59 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:51 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:40 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:33 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 05:30 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Lol, No. I am a guy who happens to also think the issues women face are real and feminism helps everyone. So much like Terry Crew, I am a feminist(though I could stand to read more on the subject). Well, you should definitely read some stuff by Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin, and after that, you'll pretty much know where you stand on the subject of modern feminism. I've heard of both of them and I am aware of their views. I am pretty sure I know where I stand. But thanks for the suggested reading. lol, you totally went to Google. On March 19 2015 05:47 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2015 05:40 travis wrote:On March 19 2015 02:35 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
There is nothing quite as amusing a a group of men talking about women's issues and feminism. It really never gets old. didn't you just say you're a man a few posts ago? Yep and I think GreenHorizon is as well. What is your point? I have never stated anything disparaging feminism or claiming it wasn't about equality. Those were specifically the people I was mocking, to be clear. I don't understand your logic here. Men who agree with feminism are allowed to discuss feminism but men who disagree with feminism aren't allowed to? Men who say feminism isn't about equality and try to paint is as some radical movement that is set on oppressing men are hilarious. I find them to be comical and I find their discussions on the matter much like whites in the US claiming that all these claims are racism are over blown. Its people who do not have to deal with the issue and never will telling those who do "its not a big deal". If people want to point out specific feminists that are too extreme or aggressive, I will happily talk about that. But people who point to Tumblr and a couple radical feminist who wrote books as proof the entire concept is about repressing men are tiresome and dull at this point. But we are way off topic and this thread is not about me or you. No, this thread is about all of us. And also, if it's possible for men to be feminists, then men should also be able to debate the merits of feminism, just like with any other philosophy. If your only argument is that all people are equal in principle, that's just called equality. If you're talking about a female-centric counterbalance to a male-centric society, then you're talking about feminism, which operates on the assumption that there is an institutionalized inequality between males and females. If there is such an institutionalization, then it would have to be torn down by a radical counter-movement. However, if such an institution-sponsored inequality is only theoretical in nature, but there is a material counter-movement, then you have a radical reactionary movement to tear down an imaginary enemy. You wrote a lot of words that basically boil down to: Feminism isn't about equality. And you're wrong. Just like addressing racism is about equality. Its not about making women better, its about making sure they are equal to men and that men are not pressured to feel "superior" to women. Terry Crew's breaks it down better than I can and hes like 20 time more awesome than me. http://www.damemagazine.com/2015/03/06/terry-crews-feminist-millions-have-died-because-male-pride Are you even reading what you're writing? ADDRESSING RACISM is about equality Addressing sexism is about equality (which I said) Feminism is not about equality. I mean, you can totally link more actors' opinions. I mean, I can link Madonna saying she's not a feminist but a humanist if you want to go that route. I mean, what do I know, I'm just a dumb woman, right? Sorry you believe differently than me, but that is the way it is. Neither of us are going to change the others mind, so we might as well move on. Have a good day. You mock the guys but tell me to have a nice day. I don't feel like I'm being treated equally.
Sorry, that was a little flippant, I have not had dinner. I was also leaving work and posting while driving is a terrible idea. To be honest, I was not aware you were a women, despite being on the site for several years. In general, I am uncomfortable telling a women what feminism should mean to them. I am perfectly conformable to debate the matter with men, as my experience related to subject reflects theirs. But I do not feel comfortable pontificating to a woman about experiences I will never have and how feminism relates to those experiences. I have the same discomfort about explaining racism any minority or homophobia to folks that are gay. I will try to find some writings form the feminist you previously posted and see if they change my opinion.
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Oh dear lord I'm laughing so fucking hard right now that I'm beginning to turn blue.
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On March 19 2015 07:22 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 07:07 Mercy13 wrote:
The definition of feminism that I prefer is egalitarianism with a particular focus on women's issues. I'm sure there are plenty of feminists and non-feminists alike who would disagree with this definition, but the term is used so broadly these days that I think there is room for a lot of different definitions that are more or less equally valid.
After all, men benefit too when gender roles are less restrictive. Maybe as gender roles are relaxed they will stop forcing us down those mines : p I just don't like 'egalitarianism' because I'm a fuckin' hipster and it's too mainstream 4 me. I don't think gender roles are inherently 'good' or 'bad', but are just kind of there.
Gender roles are only bad when they limit people. Unfortunately, this almost always happens. You could have an interesting discussion about "Is this limiting nature an intrinsic feature of gender roles?", but I'm not going to.
You and Plansix are both right and both wrong. Your comments are implicitly painting feminism as an unnecessary, radical reaction that ends up going beyond equality and therefore isn't good. This is a huge strawman and definitely misses the mark of the original intent for feminism. Feminism is most definitely about achieving equality between men and women. That is the definition of feminism. Radical segments of feminism don't define what it is.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/feminism
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
That said, you are definitely right that feminism is a reactive movement to institutionalized inequality between the sexes, and that it's not purely about the term "equality". If it was simply about equality, then it would be termed "equality", however feminism encompasses both its origins as a reactionary movement and the goal of equality.
The whole problem here is that the American media has demonized the idea of "feminism" by making them out to be crazy extremists. Now, I haven't had intricate talks with non-Americans about this particular intellectual topic, but from my understanding, this demonization and negative stereotype (making "feminism" synonymous with radical ideas or "feminazis") doesn't really exist in other countries.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html
Good example of what I was talking about. The word "feminism" has a LOT of baggage that goes with it due to stereotypes, yet the vast majority of people are, by definition, feminists.
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According to all of your links the definition of feminism is to fight for women's rights on the ground of equality of the sexes. Thus anyone fighting for male rights are by definition NOT a feminist.
Following your definitions there is an assumption that women are at an a priori disadvantaged/oppressed, which leaves it unable to encompass situations in which men are disadvantaged/oppressed. These situations are becoming more and more widespread and now encompasses areas such as healthcare (early death, shorter QUALY), justice system (harsher sentences for same crimes, worse prison conditions), the draft (male only), manual labor (shitty jobs are dominated by men), and ironically enough even at universities where women since the 1970's have outnumbered men.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2012/02/16/the-male-female-ratio-in-college/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-314026/The-university-sex-ratio-table.html
Yes women are lost in the PhD->Post Doc->Professor pipeline, but even that issue is dwindling, including in the STEM-fields. Generations of boys on the other hand have been lost after high-school since 1970's, and if that isn't tragic and a loss of brain-power I don't know what is.
Feminism was in the first couple of waves an outstanding movement and has played a great role in shaping todays society. However, it is about time we kill of the beast and start focusing on creating true equality.
EDIT: This is all semantics, however it is important for understanding why MRA's exist and why there is a push against an female-issue dominated agenda.
EDIT2: And really, if the huffingtonpost article can be taken at face value why is anyone defending the term feminism? It is obviously not associated with what we all want - true equality.
EDIT3: Wauw we are getting off-topic now. My final remark before bed is going to be "True equality for all. Call the movement what you want, but be true to the goal"
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On March 19 2015 08:37 Ghostcom wrote:According to all of your links the definition of feminism is to fight for women's rights on the ground of equality of the sexes. Thus anyone fighting for male rights are by definition NOT a feminist. Following your definitions there is an assumption that women are at an a priori disadvantaged/oppressed, which leaves it unable to encompass situations in which men are disadvantaged/oppressed. These situations are becoming more and more widespread and now encompasses areas such as healthcare (early death, shorter QUALY), justice system (harsher sentences for same crimes, worse prison conditions), the draft (male only), manual labor (shitty jobs are dominated by men), and ironically enough even at universities where women since the 1970's have outnumbered men. http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2012/02/16/the-male-female-ratio-in-college/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-314026/The-university-sex-ratio-table.htmlYes women are lost in the PhD->Post Doc->Professor pipeline, but even that issue is dwindling, including in the STEM-fields. Generations of boys on the other hand have been lost after high-school since 1970's, and if that isn't tragic and a loss of brain-power I don't know what is. Feminism was in the first couple of waves an outstanding movement and has played a great role in shaping todays society. However, it is about time we kill of the beast and start focusing on creating true equality. EDIT: This is all semantics, however it is important for understanding why MRA's exist and why there is a push against an female-issue dominated agenda. EDIT2: And really, if the huffingtonpost article can be taken at face value why is anyone defending the term feminism? It is obviously not associated with what we all want - true equality. EDIT3: Wauw we are getting off-topic now. My final remark before bed is going to be "True equality for all. Call the movement what you want, but be true to the goal"
It's called feminism because the idea is that women were and continue to be an oppressed (majority now), and the push is to bring women up to the place men have in society, thereby establishing equality of the sexes. As for you "men's issues", the draft and manual labor immediately stick out as being irrelevant nonissues, as least in America. With the way we run our military, the draft will almost certainly never be called again. As for male predominance in manual labor, no one is forcing men into these jobs. Society at large isn't pigeonholing which jobs males can do, oppressing them by making them work in manual labor. You'd never hear woman snidely telling a man to go back to the factory or mine where he belongs, whereas you might actually hear the inverse directed at women (Especially when it comes to making games!).
Healthcare is a bit more complicated, and I'm not sure on the breakdown of the death difference, so I won't speak to it's validity.
The justice system is also horribly broken, and I would of course be in favor of a reform. I think part of the reason men face longer sentences for the same crimes is again because of the "traditional roles" of the genders, where women are harmless housebodies and men go out and do hard and dangerous work.
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On March 19 2015 08:08 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 07:22 ninazerg wrote:On March 19 2015 07:07 Mercy13 wrote:
The definition of feminism that I prefer is egalitarianism with a particular focus on women's issues. I'm sure there are plenty of feminists and non-feminists alike who would disagree with this definition, but the term is used so broadly these days that I think there is room for a lot of different definitions that are more or less equally valid.
After all, men benefit too when gender roles are less restrictive. Maybe as gender roles are relaxed they will stop forcing us down those mines : p I just don't like 'egalitarianism' because I'm a fuckin' hipster and it's too mainstream 4 me. I don't think gender roles are inherently 'good' or 'bad', but are just kind of there. Gender roles are only bad when they limit people. Unfortunately, this almost always happens. You could have an interesting discussion about "Is this limiting nature an intrinsic feature of gender roles?", but I'm not going to. You and Plansix are both right and both wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
I mean, I guess I could just link something like
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
And you may scroll down to "criticisms of fascism" or click on your feminism link and go down to "critique of feminism". Furthermore, I'm not creating a 'strawman' if I'm addressing actual ideological philosophies that have been proposed by feminist authors. Also, why is the strawperson a 'man'? That's pretty sexist if you ask me.
On March 19 2015 08:08 Stratos_speAr wrote:
That said, you are definitely right that feminism is a reactive movement to institutionalized inequality between the sexes, and that it's not purely about the term "equality". If it was simply about equality, then it would be termed "equality", however feminism encompasses both its origins as a reactionary movement and the goal of equality.
So I'm strawmanning, but I'm also right? o.O
The whole problem here is that the American media has demonized the idea of "feminism" [ citation needed] by making them out to be crazy extremists. Now, I haven't had intricate talks with non-Americans about this particular intellectual topic, but from my understanding, this demonization and negative stereotype (making "feminism" synonymous with radical ideas or "feminazis") doesn't really exist in other countries. [ citation needed] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.htmlGood example of what I was talking about. The word "feminism" has a LOT of baggage that goes with it due to stereotypes, yet the vast majority of people are, by definition, feminists.
As for the poll you linked, it's surprising, considering how many readers of the Huffington Post are predominantly liberal, but still reinforces my point that you can be pro-equality while not being a feminist.
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I don't understand the concept of feminism enough to comment on the current flow of the discussion, but I'll say this: Female gamers I've encountered in online games tend to be treated much nicer by their peers than the males. I've heard some pretty terrible things directed at pretty much every minority group, homosexuals,and the mentally handicapped, though.
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EPT
