|
|
Shoah hebdo =/= Charlie hebdo.
|
On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 09:30 ZenithM wrote:On January 10 2015 07:14 silynxer wrote:On January 10 2015 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 10 2015 06:38 Squat wrote:On January 10 2015 05:03 mahrgell wrote:
[quote]
The same logic is used by the extremists and some of their supporting organizations/countries and why they have no difficulty in finding more supporters. Congrats in the world of people trying to argue which way to live is the right one, and each one fighting to the extreme, to attack the other at every opportunity. This is an all or nothing situation, because each side thinks, that they are entirely right and the others are entirely wrong if they do not accept the own believes to 100%
Yes this is an all or nothing situation. There is a very disturbing trend among young people on the political left today, where I still identify as a member, to take all the rights and liberties we enjoy for granted. The cliche that freedom isn't free is actually quite apt here. People fought and died for these rights. To defend them with any less than that is, in my view, contemptible. A post from one of my Muslim friends. I am not Charlie. I am Ahmed, the French Muslim police officer. Charlie ridiculed my religion and prophet and I died defending his right to do that. I will assume your friend is from the US. Making such a statement in the name of a deceased you know nothing about in regards to a satirical publication you most likely also know nothing about (and can only evaluate based on your cultural perceptions, I have been told french humor tends to be more crass) is in extremely poor taste. I've read elsewhere (French people please confirm) that Stéphane Charbonnier was about to publish a book about islamophobia before he was killed... As far as I know Charlie Hebdo also made plenty fun of christianity (and probably other religions as well), imagine making a similar statement in the name of a killed (for the purpose of this thought experiment) christian officer. You can still dislike the humor of Charlie Hebdo or find it tasteless (although you should let a French person translate the seemingly offensive covers and explain the context), of course. Just to clarify something: Charlie Hebdo did make fun of "quirks" in other religions as well, in more or less equal amount. Some examples, just for christianism: http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/wsfile/5741352275515.jpghttp://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/15/51/80/47/38387010.jpghttp://www.ange-noir.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/une-charlie-hebdo-caricature-chrétiens-opus-dei.jpgNot gonna translate those (unless you really want me to, but most of the time the real meaning is tied to current events with I may not recall), but they're satirical alright, let me tell you this :D http://media.meltybuzz.fr/article-1369139-ajust_610/le-pape-nabilla-ise.jpgEdit: Oh sorry you were actually saying you knew they also made fun of other religions, sorry, I thought I'd just provide examples. did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ? Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere
As far as I can tell, Charlie Hebdo is an equal-opportunity mudslinger, so yeah, they get labeled as anti-semitic or anti-islam or anti-Christian all the time as far as I understand things.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
not at the moment
there's not much new here. IC will argue (correctly) that the situation is not one of law enforcement but wartime intelligence. you want to sit like ducks and only act after an attack that's fine but do not have illusions about the price.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On January 11 2015 00:44 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 09:30 ZenithM wrote:On January 10 2015 07:14 silynxer wrote:On January 10 2015 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 10 2015 06:38 Squat wrote:On January 10 2015 05:03 mahrgell wrote:On January 10 2015 04:54 Squat wrote:On January 10 2015 04:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 10 2015 04:00 Tien wrote:
[quote]
SNL is satire based on offending people. The Simpsons is satire. Drawings cartoons is satire.
Satire is an expression of free speech. Drawing Muhammad is a right we ought to protect. Just because a book 1500 years ago said you are not allowed to draw doesn't mean we have to surrender our right to draw Muhammad so extremists aren't offended. My entire point is you don't need to protect the right to drawing Muhammad by drawing Muhammad if you know it's gonna sooner or later result in numerous people dying because of it. There are other ways to express freedom of speech. There is no right more crucial, more integral to a free society than the right to say what others do not wish to hear. The right to draw Muhammed should be protected more vigorously and ferociously than just about any other right. The moment we begin to second-guess ourselves about speaking our minds because we fear for our lives is the moment we lose the war. There is no room for compromise here. This is an all or nothing situation. The same logic is used by the extremists and some of their supporting organizations/countries and why they have no difficulty in finding more supporters. Congrats in the world of people trying to argue which way to live is the right one, and each one fighting to the extreme, to attack the other at every opportunity. This is an all or nothing situation, because each side thinks, that they are entirely right and the others are entirely wrong if they do not accept the own believes to 100% Yes this is an all or nothing situation. There is a very disturbing trend among young people on the political left today, where I still identify as a member, to take all the rights and liberties we enjoy for granted. The cliche that freedom isn't free is actually quite apt here. People fought and died for these rights. To defend them with any less than that is, in my view, contemptible. A post from one of my Muslim friends. I am not Charlie. I am Ahmed, the French Muslim police officer. Charlie ridiculed my religion and prophet and I died defending his right to do that. I will assume your friend is from the US. Making such a statement in the name of a deceased you know nothing about in regards to a satirical publication you most likely also know nothing about (and can only evaluate based on your cultural perceptions, I have been told french humor tends to be more crass) is in extremely poor taste. I've read elsewhere (French people please confirm) that Stéphane Charbonnier was about to publish a book about islamophobia before he was killed... As far as I know Charlie Hebdo also made plenty fun of christianity (and probably other religions as well), imagine making a similar statement in the name of a killed (for the purpose of this thought experiment) christian officer. You can still dislike the humor of Charlie Hebdo or find it tasteless (although you should let a French person translate the seemingly offensive covers and explain the context), of course. Just to clarify something: Charlie Hebdo did make fun of "quirks" in other religions as well, in more or less equal amount. Some examples, just for christianism: http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/wsfile/5741352275515.jpghttp://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/15/51/80/47/38387010.jpghttp://www.ange-noir.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/une-charlie-hebdo-caricature-chrétiens-opus-dei.jpgNot gonna translate those (unless you really want me to, but most of the time the real meaning is tied to current events with I may not recall), but they're satirical alright, let me tell you this :D http://media.meltybuzz.fr/article-1369139-ajust_610/le-pape-nabilla-ise.jpgEdit: Oh sorry you were actually saying you knew they also made fun of other religions, sorry, I thought I'd just provide examples. did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ? + Show Spoiler +and + Show Spoiler +"1 milion discount on the 6 in exchange of palestine"
that one is a parody like whitedoge said
|
On January 10 2015 23:46 L1ghtning wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 22:50 WhiteDog wrote:
The term culture is flawed to begin with. It doesn't mean much : if you think you can resume french culture with Liberty Fraternity and Equality then... France has had the chance to be a dominant power during the 19th and 20th century. Sudan has not, which makes your point of view biased : what do you know about Sudan before the colonisation ? What would have become Sudan if it was not for the dominance of some other country ? How its culture would have evolved ?
I don't even know why you absolutly want to give an objective value to a culture in itself anyway : it has value for the people that live in it, as it help structure their day to day experience, their interactions, give them meanings, identities and roles. The foundation of my argument is not that the french culture is superior to most of the other cultures, although I think this is the case, and is pretty obvious. I mainly pointed out the huge flaws in the idea that all cultures are equal. Cultures can evolve and stagnant, and probably more rarely, devolve. It's very important to put a value on culture, because that's how you make a society progress. You keep the good and get rid of the bad. The french enlightenment was a crossroad for the french ppl, where they had to choose between old cultural norms and new cultural norms. It was triggered by the cultural growth of the french society. The french society had culturally advanced to such an extent that they no longer could accept the traditional monarchy. Then they were swept away by nationalism, just like Germany were later on, but both the french and the germans learned from their mistakes. As a whole, the french society have advanced since the medieval times. And like I said, all cultures have value. I never said that inferior cultures have no meaning, and I'm sure that there are certain elements of the Sudan culture that is superior to the french culture. We can all learn something from other cultures, but all cultures are not as a whole, equally valuable.
I think you mix up culture and society. Which are of course two very permeable terms, but have to be distinguished.
Societies go up and down on all points of view, and carry values that change all the time. And yes, certain are better than others at certain times. I think French society today is better than it was in, say 1930, for example, and is better than Nigerian society.
Now when you talk about culture, comparing them is irrelevant, because they are qualitatively different.
Take an example: German culture. It's one of the richest in the world, and it has been constantly for the past two hundred years. Yet with the same culture, they have had the society they have now, one of the best in history by many standards, and Hitler and nazism. It was the same culture, the culture of Goethe, Wagner, Kant, that has produced two societies at different times that were either phenomenal, or one of the greatest pit of shame of human history.
Why does it make a difference? Because what is wrong with Sudan, and what could be said inferior to France right now, is not its poets, its traditions, its artists and its history. That's its culture and its perfectly fine. What is wrong is its relationship to its traditions, and the general state of basically everything.
If you don't make the distinction, you basically say that Sudan would be better off if Sudanese abandoned what make them who they are and became French. That's not true.
Social values and characteristics: secularism, feminism and sex equality, economic prosperity, all those things are not specific to one culture. They are transversal to all of us. Culture is not. An example: Islamic societies have been the most tolerant in the world in the XIIth XIIIth century. Now they are the most intolerant. What has happened is that we have changed our relationship to our religion and tradition for the better (with secularisation) while they have changed it for the worst (with wahabbism for example). It's not the inherent merit of Islam or Christianity that make France better today, but our reltionship to those: that's our type of society. And you could have a perfectly tolerant society whose culture is made with Muhammad and not Jesus, with Shawqi instead of Arthur Rimbaud, etc etc etc...
Note than when people believed really what you said, that our culture was the best and that people would be better off with it because it was superior, it gave colonialism. We tried to make all Africa French or English. Look at the result.
|
On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 09:30 ZenithM wrote:On January 10 2015 07:14 silynxer wrote:On January 10 2015 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 10 2015 06:38 Squat wrote:On January 10 2015 05:03 mahrgell wrote:
[quote]
The same logic is used by the extremists and some of their supporting organizations/countries and why they have no difficulty in finding more supporters. Congrats in the world of people trying to argue which way to live is the right one, and each one fighting to the extreme, to attack the other at every opportunity. This is an all or nothing situation, because each side thinks, that they are entirely right and the others are entirely wrong if they do not accept the own believes to 100%
Yes this is an all or nothing situation. There is a very disturbing trend among young people on the political left today, where I still identify as a member, to take all the rights and liberties we enjoy for granted. The cliche that freedom isn't free is actually quite apt here. People fought and died for these rights. To defend them with any less than that is, in my view, contemptible. A post from one of my Muslim friends. I am not Charlie. I am Ahmed, the French Muslim police officer. Charlie ridiculed my religion and prophet and I died defending his right to do that. I will assume your friend is from the US. Making such a statement in the name of a deceased you know nothing about in regards to a satirical publication you most likely also know nothing about (and can only evaluate based on your cultural perceptions, I have been told french humor tends to be more crass) is in extremely poor taste. I've read elsewhere (French people please confirm) that Stéphane Charbonnier was about to publish a book about islamophobia before he was killed... As far as I know Charlie Hebdo also made plenty fun of christianity (and probably other religions as well), imagine making a similar statement in the name of a killed (for the purpose of this thought experiment) christian officer. You can still dislike the humor of Charlie Hebdo or find it tasteless (although you should let a French person translate the seemingly offensive covers and explain the context), of course. Just to clarify something: Charlie Hebdo did make fun of "quirks" in other religions as well, in more or less equal amount. Some examples, just for christianism: http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/wsfile/5741352275515.jpghttp://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/15/51/80/47/38387010.jpghttp://www.ange-noir.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/une-charlie-hebdo-caricature-chrétiens-opus-dei.jpgNot gonna translate those (unless you really want me to, but most of the time the real meaning is tied to current events with I may not recall), but they're satirical alright, let me tell you this :D http://media.meltybuzz.fr/article-1369139-ajust_610/le-pape-nabilla-ise.jpgEdit: Oh sorry you were actually saying you knew they also made fun of other religions, sorry, I thought I'd just provide examples. did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ? Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere
Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically).
One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims.
It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that.
|
On January 11 2015 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 09:30 ZenithM wrote:On January 10 2015 07:14 silynxer wrote:On January 10 2015 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 10 2015 06:38 Squat wrote:
[quote]
Yes this is an all or nothing situation. There is a very disturbing trend among young people on the political left today, where I still identify as a member, to take all the rights and liberties we enjoy for granted. The cliche that freedom isn't free is actually quite apt here. People fought and died for these rights. To defend them with any less than that is, in my view, contemptible. A post from one of my Muslim friends. I am not Charlie. I am Ahmed, the French Muslim police officer. Charlie ridiculed my religion and prophet and I died defending his right to do that. I will assume your friend is from the US. Making such a statement in the name of a deceased you know nothing about in regards to a satirical publication you most likely also know nothing about (and can only evaluate based on your cultural perceptions, I have been told french humor tends to be more crass) is in extremely poor taste. I've read elsewhere (French people please confirm) that Stéphane Charbonnier was about to publish a book about islamophobia before he was killed... As far as I know Charlie Hebdo also made plenty fun of christianity (and probably other religions as well), imagine making a similar statement in the name of a killed (for the purpose of this thought experiment) christian officer. You can still dislike the humor of Charlie Hebdo or find it tasteless (although you should let a French person translate the seemingly offensive covers and explain the context), of course. Just to clarify something: Charlie Hebdo did make fun of "quirks" in other religions as well, in more or less equal amount. Some examples, just for christianism: http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/wsfile/5741352275515.jpghttp://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/15/51/80/47/38387010.jpghttp://www.ange-noir.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/une-charlie-hebdo-caricature-chrétiens-opus-dei.jpgNot gonna translate those (unless you really want me to, but most of the time the real meaning is tied to current events with I may not recall), but they're satirical alright, let me tell you this :D http://media.meltybuzz.fr/article-1369139-ajust_610/le-pape-nabilla-ise.jpgEdit: Oh sorry you were actually saying you knew they also made fun of other religions, sorry, I thought I'd just provide examples. did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ? Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically). One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims. It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that.
Charlie never criticized the jewish community like it did with muslims and christians. For exemple, none of the caricature regarding Israel refer to judaism in any way.
|
On January 11 2015 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 09:30 ZenithM wrote:On January 10 2015 07:14 silynxer wrote:On January 10 2015 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
A post from one of my Muslim friends.
[quote] I will assume your friend is from the US. Making such a statement in the name of a deceased you know nothing about in regards to a satirical publication you most likely also know nothing about (and can only evaluate based on your cultural perceptions, I have been told french humor tends to be more crass) is in extremely poor taste. I've read elsewhere (French people please confirm) that Stéphane Charbonnier was about to publish a book about islamophobia before he was killed... As far as I know Charlie Hebdo also made plenty fun of christianity (and probably other religions as well), imagine making a similar statement in the name of a killed (for the purpose of this thought experiment) christian officer. You can still dislike the humor of Charlie Hebdo or find it tasteless (although you should let a French person translate the seemingly offensive covers and explain the context), of course. Just to clarify something: Charlie Hebdo did make fun of "quirks" in other religions as well, in more or less equal amount. Some examples, just for christianism: http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/wsfile/5741352275515.jpghttp://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/15/51/80/47/38387010.jpghttp://www.ange-noir.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/une-charlie-hebdo-caricature-chrétiens-opus-dei.jpgNot gonna translate those (unless you really want me to, but most of the time the real meaning is tied to current events with I may not recall), but they're satirical alright, let me tell you this :D http://media.meltybuzz.fr/article-1369139-ajust_610/le-pape-nabilla-ise.jpgEdit: Oh sorry you were actually saying you knew they also made fun of other religions, sorry, I thought I'd just provide examples. did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ? Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically). One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims. It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that. Charlie never criticized the jewish community like it did with muslims and christians. For exemple, none of the caricature regarding Israel refer to judaism in any way.
Charlie never made fun of Christians or Muslims. It made fun of extremists, and it made fun of Christianity, and of Islam. And plenty of caricature made fun of Judaism too. You had a shitload of Moses and Abrahams, and rabbis being ridicules absolutely everywhere. I mean seriously, have you ever read Charlie?
|
On January 11 2015 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 09:30 ZenithM wrote:On January 10 2015 07:14 silynxer wrote:
[quote]
I will assume your friend is from the US. Making such a statement in the name of a deceased you know nothing about in regards to a satirical publication you most likely also know nothing about (and can only evaluate based on your cultural perceptions, I have been told french humor tends to be more crass) is in extremely poor taste.
I've read elsewhere (French people please confirm) that Stéphane Charbonnier was about to publish a book about islamophobia before he was killed... As far as I know Charlie Hebdo also made plenty fun of christianity (and probably other religions as well), imagine making a similar statement in the name of a killed (for the purpose of this thought experiment) christian officer.
You can still dislike the humor of Charlie Hebdo or find it tasteless (although you should let a French person translate the seemingly offensive covers and explain the context), of course. Just to clarify something: Charlie Hebdo did make fun of "quirks" in other religions as well, in more or less equal amount. Some examples, just for christianism: http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/wsfile/5741352275515.jpghttp://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/15/51/80/47/38387010.jpghttp://www.ange-noir.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/une-charlie-hebdo-caricature-chrétiens-opus-dei.jpgNot gonna translate those (unless you really want me to, but most of the time the real meaning is tied to current events with I may not recall), but they're satirical alright, let me tell you this :D http://media.meltybuzz.fr/article-1369139-ajust_610/le-pape-nabilla-ise.jpgEdit: Oh sorry you were actually saying you knew they also made fun of other religions, sorry, I thought I'd just provide examples. did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ? Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically). One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims. It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that. Charlie never criticized the jewish community like it did with muslims and christians. For exemple, none of the caricature regarding Israel refer to judaism in any way. Charlie never made fun of Christians or Muslims. It made fun of extremists, and it made fun of Christianity, and of Islam. And plenty of caricature made fun of Judaism too. You had a shitload of Moses and Abrahams, and rabbis being ridicules absolutely everywhere. I mean seriously, have you ever read Charlie?
+ Show Spoiler +
I did.
|
On January 11 2015 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ? Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically). One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims. It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that. Charlie never criticized the jewish community like it did with muslims and christians. For exemple, none of the caricature regarding Israel refer to judaism in any way. Charlie never made fun of Christians or Muslims. It made fun of extremists, and it made fun of Christianity, and of Islam. And plenty of caricature made fun of Judaism too. You had a shitload of Moses and Abrahams, and rabbis being ridicules absolutely everywhere. I mean seriously, have you ever read Charlie? + Show Spoiler +I did.
Yes? And?
![[image loading]](http://photo.gala.fr/media/cache/width_620px/upload/slideshow/charlie-hebdo-des-unes-sans-concession-9150/20-avril-2011-aux-chiottes-toutes-les-religions-159699.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://libertyunyield.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/pope.jpg)
Personally I see everyone in the same basket
|
On January 11 2015 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ? Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically). One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims. It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that. Charlie never criticized the jewish community like it did with muslims and christians. For exemple, none of the caricature regarding Israel refer to judaism in any way. Charlie never made fun of Christians or Muslims. It made fun of extremists, and it made fun of Christianity, and of Islam. And plenty of caricature made fun of Judaism too. You had a shitload of Moses and Abrahams, and rabbis being ridicules absolutely everywhere. I mean seriously, have you ever read Charlie? + Show Spoiler +I did.
Then you should realize the point of view you're taking is factually wrong.
|
On January 11 2015 01:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2015 12:29 ImFromPortugal wrote:
[quote]
did they make any publication mocking the jewish faith ?
Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically). One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims. It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that. Charlie never criticized the jewish community like it did with muslims and christians. For exemple, none of the caricature regarding Israel refer to judaism in any way. Charlie never made fun of Christians or Muslims. It made fun of extremists, and it made fun of Christianity, and of Islam. And plenty of caricature made fun of Judaism too. You had a shitload of Moses and Abrahams, and rabbis being ridicules absolutely everywhere. I mean seriously, have you ever read Charlie? + Show Spoiler +I did. Yes? And? Personally I see everyone in the same basket
Yes and that's the two only front page you can find on jews and it's about all religions. Charlie barely ever joked about the Shoah or about jews specifically, which explains why the jewish political groups barely ever criticized them. But the front page with "the Quran is shit", or all the cardinal butt fucking each other, all those are way more frontal than anything related to jews.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
some of these posters characterizing present state of muslim community in france should also be aware of its history within france. integration is a two way street.
|
On January 11 2015 01:31 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 01:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 10 2015 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Absolutely all the time can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically). One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims. It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that. Charlie never criticized the jewish community like it did with muslims and christians. For exemple, none of the caricature regarding Israel refer to judaism in any way. Charlie never made fun of Christians or Muslims. It made fun of extremists, and it made fun of Christianity, and of Islam. And plenty of caricature made fun of Judaism too. You had a shitload of Moses and Abrahams, and rabbis being ridicules absolutely everywhere. I mean seriously, have you ever read Charlie? + Show Spoiler +I did. Yes? And? Personally I see everyone in the same basket Yes and that's the two only front page you can find on jews and it's about all religions. Charlie barely ever joked about the Shoah or about jews specifically, which explains why the jewish political groups barely ever criticized them. But the front page with "the Quran is shit", or all the cardinal butt fucking each other, all those are way more frontal.
Why would they laugh about the Shoah? That has nothing to do with religion. And there is nothing to laugh about really.
What I am trying to tell you is that Charlie didn't laugh about "the jews", because it never laughed about people for what they are, because they were not racist. It didn't laugh about "christians" or "muslims" either.
It was anti-clerical, so it laughed about the Pope, about rabbis EVERYWHERE, about imams.
It was anti extremists so it laughed about christian bigots, orthodox Jews and muslim fundamentalists.
It was anti religion so it laughed about Moses, about Jesus, about Muhammad, about Abraham and so on.
But it didn't laugh about generic muslims, generic jews and generic christians.
Charlie was fighting against IDEAS not against people. Laughing about the Shoah is not laughing against ideas. Laughing about jews because they are rich or have a bug nose or control the world is not laughing about ideas.
Charlie was not Dieudonné
|
wow some of these "caricatures" are so offensive damn. not sure how this is really necessary.
not that i am offended by that, but i can imagine people being offended by that. also not sure how to laugh about it, i mean sure i can laugh about religions but this is just too simple, maybe just not my sense of humour
|
On January 11 2015 01:37 Undead1993 wrote:
wow some of these "caricatures" are so offensive damn. not sure how this is really necessary.
I would advise you to read Candide from Voltaire. It's basically just as offensive.
It's necessary because that's those people and those caricatures, this Voltairian tradition that has made our society so secular. Which in my opinion is the one greatest reason to be proud of France. What they did was saying: No, we are not respecting superstition about Vrirgin Mary or Muhammad flying on his winged horse, no, we are not bowing in front of priests, and we are gonna go full hardcore on them because they get a respect they don't deserve and because we really don't like them. That's basically the spirit.
And yes, they are tasteless, and it's fine if you don't understand why or what is funny about that. Let's just say that I burst out laughing everytime I see one of their picture, and that's certainly a cultural thing. Again, they really didn't try to please everyone, and it's a good thing many people didn't like them. But they were not racists, and they didn't do what they did just to be mean.
|
On January 11 2015 01:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 01:31 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 01:20 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 01:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2015 01:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 11 2015 00:45 ImFromPortugal wrote:On January 11 2015 00:38 farvacola wrote:On January 11 2015 00:32 ImFromPortugal wrote:
[quote]
can you please give an example? Literally took me 5 seconds. + Show Spoiler + i bet the anti-semite card was used somewhere Well actually, Christian and Muslim organization have been much, much, much more aggressive than Jewish ones when it comes to Charlie. I don't remember of a Jewish organization suing Charlie, while Catholics and Muslim organization were suing it every 6 month (and were losing systematically). One drawing of Charlie was actually racist, and it targeted people and not their religion. It happened once, and Siné, who drew it, actually got fired. It was playing on stereotypes of Jews in that case, but it would have been the same if he had made a joke about muslims. It's very important to understand that Charlie was never attacking people for their faith, but only religion themselves or people for what they were doing. You have countless caricatures making fun of Jewish extremists, but never one of random Jews because Jews have money / a big nose / all the power in the media, or any bullshit like that. Charlie never criticized the jewish community like it did with muslims and christians. For exemple, none of the caricature regarding Israel refer to judaism in any way. Charlie never made fun of Christians or Muslims. It made fun of extremists, and it made fun of Christianity, and of Islam. And plenty of caricature made fun of Judaism too. You had a shitload of Moses and Abrahams, and rabbis being ridicules absolutely everywhere. I mean seriously, have you ever read Charlie? + Show Spoiler +I did. Yes? And? Personally I see everyone in the same basket Yes and that's the two only front page you can find on jews and it's about all religions. Charlie barely ever joked about the Shoah or about jews specifically, which explains why the jewish political groups barely ever criticized them. But the front page with "the Quran is shit", or all the cardinal butt fucking each other, all those are way more frontal. Why would they laugh about the Shoah? That has nothing to do with religion. And there is nothing to laugh about really. What I am trying to tell you is that Charlie didn't laugh about "the jews", because it never laughed about people for what they are, because they were not racist. It didn't laugh about "christians" or "muslims" either. It was anti-clerical, so it laughed about the Pope, about rabbis EVERYWHERE, about imams. It was anti extremists so it laughed about christian bigots, orthodox Jews and muslim fundamentalists. It was anti religion so it laughed about Moses, about Jesus, about Muhammad, about Abraham and so on. But it didn't laugh about generic muslims, generic jews and generic christians. Charlie was fighting against IDEAS not against people. Laughing about the Shoah is not laughing against ideas. Laughing about jews because they are rich or have a bug nose or control the world is not laughing about ideas. Charlie was not Dieudonné
How is saying the coran is shit not against muslim ? Where are the ideas ?
I liked Charlie, I see great qualities in them and they were, individually great people. I also loved their most offensive stuff, against anyone. But this idea that they criticized exactly everybody in the same way is, in my opinion, going a little too far : they had their own wars, mainly against the FN and anything related (soral, dieudonné), for total sexual freedom (because they loved it really), and against extremism (mostly muslim and christian extremism).
They never (to my knowledge) really criticized the CRIF, despite its role in france in the last few years, or never made any relationship between what happen in Israel and the jewish religion.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
whitedoge that seems like a personal point against them.
|
On January 11 2015 01:44 oneofthem wrote:
whitedoge that seems like a personal point against them.
Not really. I'm just trying to be objective. When I see how they treat the national front, it's great, but please don't tell me they treat the other parties the same way because it's false.
To say it in another way, they had a side (anarchist / far left).
|
On January 11 2015 01:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 01:37 Undead1993 wrote:
wow some of these "caricatures" are so offensive damn. not sure how this is really necessary. I would advise you to read Candide from Voltaire. It's basically just as offensive. It's necessary because that's those people and those caricatures, this Voltairian tradition that has made our society so secular. Which in my opinion is the one greatest reason to be proud of France. What they did was saying: No, we are not respecting superstition about Vrirgin Mary or Muhammad flying on his winged horse, no, we are not bowing in front of priests, and we are gonna go full hardcore on them because they get a respect they don't deserve and because we really don't like them. That's basically the spirit. And yes, they are tasteless, and it's fine if you don't understand why or what is funny about that. Let's just say that I burst out laughing everytime I see one of their picture, and that's certainly a cultural thing. Again, they really didn't try to please everyone, and it's a good thing many people didn't like them. But they were not racists, and they didn't do what they did just to be mean.
oh interesting.
thanks for the explanation
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fdissidenceresistance.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fshoah-hebdo-sept2012.jpg&f=1)
![[image loading]](https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fdissidenceresistance.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F11%2Fshoah-hebdo.png&f=1)
![[image loading]](http://imworld.aufeminin.com/story/20130224/charlie-hebdo-une-14309_w1000.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fp0.storage.canalblog.com%2F06%2F45%2F177230%2F84162435_o.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fstripsjournal.canalblog.com%2Farchives%2F2013%2F02%2F26%2F26515880.html&h=825&w=650&tbnid=LsWrJX-gxw48TM%3A&zoom=1&docid=5qdYPocqBT49jM&ei=TVKxVNGiJMbW7AbUooDwAg&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=359&page=1&start=0&ndsp=47&ved=0CCIQrQMwAA)
![[image loading]](http://preprod-img.planet.fr/files/images/article/6/1/9/311916/1344355-inline.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://quenelplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-le-coran-cest-de-la-merde.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--o4L_giMf--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/yi2x7bussbnxfn3sx4ub.jpg)
