Its strange, I feel pretty much against charlie hebdo, but not south park while its pretty similar. Southpark is way more fun and pertinent, while i dont get everything because im french.
I was wondery if the author was threatened, and I read about this :
11 years seems a lot, and useless, I dont think he will be "repented" when he goes out. And knowing that the Karachi brothers radicalised in prison... Education is everything.
Also I found this
basicly he is saying that lots of muslim are already fighting (not just with gun ) and dying every day against extremist
So proud of our special fources and police. Great work. Wish the injured the best and quick recovery.
@ Wohodix : Charlie Hebdo always add financial problems and was even stopped at some points but it started again, I'm not sure it would have died within one year, it had often difficulties but was resilient. Indeed, it had poor sales but nearly everyone knew it and the cartoonists were well-known too.
The thing was people just didn't read the magazine. It could have been for a number of reasons, from poor taste and vulgarity to often devoid of fact/reality 'interpretations' of contemporary news... or it was just plain bad. People simply didn't read Charlie Hedbo, it lived off of a small following that found their work interesting and an inflated sense of self worth.
The irony in this whole story is that the magazine was cash strapped and doomed to fail and now they don't even know what to do with all the money coming in. Some back issues are selling for $1000 on ebay, going from a measly 60k to over 1 million copies being printed overnight.
If those gunmen had just stayed at home CH would have been finished within the year. Now the amount of people buying it has increased 20x and global media are spamming pictures of muhhamed to a much much larger audience. Good job idiots.
I agree.
The situation could be a good plot for south park.
@ raynpelikoneet : Actually most of them were deployed because of the standard Vigipirate, even if thousands participated the actual hunt. The number announced, about 90k is mostly communication even though thousands were actively searching.
Because the biggest part of the 90k were deployed outside ile de france and Picardie where the hunt was ongoing, thus they were just actually "on alert or ready to replace the tired forces" (staying awake and being effective during more than 54h is nearly impossible)
I am not saying it's Charlie Hebdo's fault -- obviously. I am saying i don't understand why do people have to provoke people who think differently about things. Is it "just because you can"? It is a different thing to respond to something than it is to obviously provoke someone -- which this falls into imo.
Some ideas (and some people) are worth provoking, as its a catalyst for change. Tip toeing around and respecting the unrespectable is nonsense. You should poke homophobes in the eye (rhetorically speaking), as well as muslims, hindus and Christians, in all but the most extreme 'live and let live, I dont actually believe in my religion, I adopt it for the sake of tradition' sort of cases.
Are you seriously trying to say you think something like islamic/christian/[insert any religion here] are going to change because of enough people provoking them?!?!?
If that's what you are trying to say i don't know what world you are living in.
gays provoked christianity so it changed ... what world are you living in?
well... not exactly.
society/people changed and forced christianity to change. gays - rightfully - presented their case and with time the mainstream of people understood.
On January 10 2015 20:48 Ishentar wrote: @ raynpelikoneet : Actually most of them were deployed because of the standard Vigipirate, even if thousands participated the actual hunt. The number announced, about 90k is mostly communication even though thousands were actively searching.
Ahh okay then it makes more sense.
I just wondered why 60k officers couldn't find the people they were looking for for like a day when they had their location already. But yes, what you said makes a lot more sense.
On January 10 2015 20:41 Ishentar wrote: So proud of our special fources and police. Great work. Wish the injured the best and quick recovery.
@ Wohodix : Charlie Hebdo always add financial problems and was even stopped at some points but it started again, I'm not sure it would have died within one year, it had often difficulties but was resilient. Indeed, it had poor sales but nearly everyone knew it and the cartoonists were well-known too.
what I don't get is HOW those fundamentalist fucks could slip through all the cracks and never raise a big red flag. they were known, their environment and extremist "mentor" was known. it was known that they had travelled abroad and protentially trained to fight for their lost and dumb cause. they were on no-fly lists...
france also has the oh so important data retention to prevent terrorists from ever commiting such atrocious acts, how well that worked out -_-
I would really like to ask a few hard questions to the interior minister or officials from the intelligence community.
On January 10 2015 20:41 Ishentar wrote: So proud of our special fources and police. Great work. Wish the injured the best and quick recovery.
@ Wohodix : Charlie Hebdo always add financial problems and was even stopped at some points but it started again, I'm not sure it would have died within one year, it had often difficulties but was resilient. Indeed, it had poor sales but nearly everyone knew it and the cartoonists were well-known too.
what I don't get is HOW those fundamentalist fucks could slip through all the cracks and never raise a big red flag. they were known, their environment and extremist "mentor" was known. it was known that they had travelled abroad and protentially trained to fight for their lost and dumb cause. they were on no-fly lists...
france also has the oh so important data retention to prevent terrorists from ever commiting such atrocious acts, how well that worked out -_-
I would really like to ask a few hard questions to the interior minister or officials from the intelligence community.
How do you suggest someone "always correctly identifies a terrorist", especially a one who's been born in the said country?
On January 10 2015 20:41 Ishentar wrote: So proud of our special fources and police. Great work. Wish the injured the best and quick recovery.
@ Wohodix : Charlie Hebdo always add financial problems and was even stopped at some points but it started again, I'm not sure it would have died within one year, it had often difficulties but was resilient. Indeed, it had poor sales but nearly everyone knew it and the cartoonists were well-known too.
what I don't get is HOW those fundamentalist fucks could slip through all the cracks and never raise a big red flag. they were known, their environment and extremist "mentor" was known. it was known that they had travelled abroad and protentially trained to fight for their lost and dumb cause. they were on no-fly lists...
france also has the oh so important data retention to prevent terrorists from ever commiting such atrocious acts, how well that worked out -_-
I would really like to ask a few hard questions to the interior minister or officials from the intelligence community.
How do you suggest someone "always correctly identifies a terrorist", especially a one who's been born in the said country?
I don't know, I guess in post privacy societies with mass surveillance a lot could be done? for what did we sacrifice those rights, security they said - no?.
of course you also need qualified people who can connect the dots, that's where I would start asking questions.
On January 10 2015 05:35 Incognoto wrote: I am French and I am damn proud to be French. I'm proud of the cultural heritage that we have and I'm proud of all the scientific and cultural things we've brought to the world. Some might see a country as being lines on the map; let them. I don't see a country as something as pitiful on lines on the map. Nor is a country the government in charge. A country is its people. I am very proud to be a French person. I am proud of the French and I'm proud of what France has accomplished in history.
That doesn't mean I look down on someone who isn't French. You can be proud of your country without being an idiot.
Culture is what defines human societies. Cultures aren't better or worse than one another, they're merely different. Different groups of human beings have agreed to different ways of living together, that is what a nation is. Being intolerant of other cultures is being idiotic; nothing is wrong with loving your own culture.
Slightly tangent but I feel it's something that needed to be said. I am glad these terrible events are over.
This is probably one of the best posts i have ever read on any forum.
Well yeah, the sad thing being that there are a lot of people (in France, but I'm sure in any country) who stop before the "Cultures aren't better or worse than one another" part.
On January 10 2015 18:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 10 2015 18:26 esdf wrote: It's a tragedy what happened, but it was obvious it's going to happen. This charlie hebdo must be a sad ass paper if they can only sell by making fun and insulting others. Still doesn't justfiy the killings tho. Nothing can.
If you don't know anything about Charlie Hebdo, maybe you should keep your judgments for another day, just out of decency.
If you want to understand what they were doing, you would have to go back to Voltaire and read, for example, Candide. There is a long tradition of satire in France, which has been one of the most important, efficient and intelligent engine for social changes. Sexual liberation, secularization, democratization, feminism, all those things have been partly the work of people who continued proudly this voltairian tradition of laughing at bigots, extremists, religious superstition, racists, fascists, and everything that goes under what Voltaire was calling "l'infâme".
We owe those people an enormous amount. They were free thinkers, and free people. Just have some respect.
From my point of view you can be a free thinker and a free person without trying your best to insult others. I've nothing against satire, but constantly doing same old shit just to provoke certain people is low and cheap.
I agree with your line of thinking although i would change the "low and cheap" to "stupid in certain situations". Apparently a lot of people (based on this thread) do not agree though. Imo it kinda makes them -- funnily enough -- extremists in a way..
It does not make Charlie Hebdo extremists, for the simple reason that Charlie Hebdo never threatened to kill anyone, and would have never killed anyone. It has been said already, but there will always be people to be offended and to feel provoked, whatever the "offense" is. Now I'm not saying that everything can be said or done, that's why there are laws in France against openly racists behaviors and the likes. Charlie Hebdo got sued many times for what they did, but iirc (I may be wrong here) they never got sentenced to anything.
All cultures have value, but they're not equally valuable.
Do you honestly believe that the culture in Sudan is worth as much as the culture of France? I'm sure we can agree that freedom of speech is a significant part of the french culture. Can you please name me something that is worth as much as freedom of speech, which can be found in cultures that don't respect freedom of speech? I sure can't think of anything. The only thing that I would value equally are other freedoms, but when one freedom is not respected, most of the other freedoms tend to not be respected either.
On January 10 2015 21:09 raynpelikoneet wrote: but isn't this big brother kinda thing a bit too much? i think it is.
what big brother kind of thing?
The surveillance thingy you suggested -- or rather "suggested". I know that would suck ass but you are right; It's pretty much the only thing you can ACTUALLY properly identify the threats. I still don't want that.
On January 10 2015 20:48 Ishentar wrote: @ raynpelikoneet : Actually most of them were deployed because of the standard Vigipirate, even if thousands participated the actual hunt. The number announced, about 90k is mostly communication even though thousands were actively searching.
Ahh okay then it makes more sense.
I just wondered why 60k officers couldn't find the people they were looking for for like a day when they had their location already. But yes, what you said makes a lot more sense.
There are ~10 000 muslims in France that would be considered integrists by some, amongst which some are trying to recruit jihadists. One brother that did the shooting had been part of such recruiters for a 2005 cell that had 12 "potentials". 3 of 12 died in Irak. Recently, 2 french have been identified on Isis footage, sent there through similar recruiting.
There is a non-zero risk that french terrorist cells exist and military actions of France against Isis makes their activation possible. Worst case, they trigger coordinated attacks (multiple teams, multiple targets).
As soon as the first shooting occured vigipirate plan was put in place, to be able to answer to this worst case scenario. Good thing is this time there were only 3 of them acting. Made the thousands of officers sent to block subway stations/touristic sites at each minor alert useless, but I can understand the precaution.
On January 10 2015 21:09 raynpelikoneet wrote: but isn't this big brother kinda thing a bit too much? i think it is.
what big brother kind of thing?
The surveillance thingy you suggested -- or rather "suggested". I know that would suck ass but you are right; It's pretty much the only thing you can ACTUALLY properly identify the threats. I still don't want that.
data retention is a fact. I am not suggesting anything. my main argument is that even with those tools (they pushed down our sorry and afraid asses) they were not able to catch them.
as a matter of fact, me having to explain that point shows that awareness for those kinds of things is just not there yet.
On January 10 2015 21:26 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think data retention helps too much as there are nowadays more communication sources than just a phone.
yeah... you did not read that thing correctly did you?
no worries, I am gonna give you a hand here.
The Data Retention Directive, more formally "Directive 2006/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 15 March 2006 on the retention of data generated or processed in connection with the provision of publicly available electronic communications services or of public communications networks and amending Directive 2002/58/EC" was a Directive issued by the European Union and related to telecommunications data retention. According to the directive, member states will have to store citizens' telecommunications data for a minimum of 6 months and at most 24 months.
On January 10 2015 05:35 Incognoto wrote: I am French and I am damn proud to be French. I'm proud of the cultural heritage that we have and I'm proud of all the scientific and cultural things we've brought to the world. Some might see a country as being lines on the map; let them. I don't see a country as something as pitiful on lines on the map. Nor is a country the government in charge. A country is its people. I am very proud to be a French person. I am proud of the French and I'm proud of what France has accomplished in history.
That doesn't mean I look down on someone who isn't French. You can be proud of your country without being an idiot.
Culture is what defines human societies. Cultures aren't better or worse than one another, they're merely different. Different groups of human beings have agreed to different ways of living together, that is what a nation is. Being intolerant of other cultures is being idiotic; nothing is wrong with loving your own culture.
Slightly tangent but I feel it's something that needed to be said. I am glad these terrible events are over.
This is probably one of the best posts i have ever read on any forum.
Well yeah, the sad thing being that there are a lot of people (in France, but I'm sure in any country) who stop before the "Cultures aren't better or worse than one another" part.
On January 10 2015 19:53 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On January 10 2015 19:35 esdf wrote:
On January 10 2015 18:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 10 2015 18:26 esdf wrote: It's a tragedy what happened, but it was obvious it's going to happen. This charlie hebdo must be a sad ass paper if they can only sell by making fun and insulting others. Still doesn't justfiy the killings tho. Nothing can.
If you don't know anything about Charlie Hebdo, maybe you should keep your judgments for another day, just out of decency.
If you want to understand what they were doing, you would have to go back to Voltaire and read, for example, Candide. There is a long tradition of satire in France, which has been one of the most important, efficient and intelligent engine for social changes. Sexual liberation, secularization, democratization, feminism, all those things have been partly the work of people who continued proudly this voltairian tradition of laughing at bigots, extremists, religious superstition, racists, fascists, and everything that goes under what Voltaire was calling "l'infâme".
We owe those people an enormous amount. They were free thinkers, and free people. Just have some respect.
From my point of view you can be a free thinker and a free person without trying your best to insult others. I've nothing against satire, but constantly doing same old shit just to provoke certain people is low and cheap.
I agree with your line of thinking although i would change the "low and cheap" to "stupid in certain situations". Apparently a lot of people (based on this thread) do not agree though. Imo it kinda makes them -- funnily enough -- extremists in a way..
It does not make Charlie Hebdo extremists, for the simple reason that Charlie Hebdo never threatened to kill anyone, and would have never killed anyone. It has been said already, but there will always be people to be offended and to feel provoked, whatever the "offense" is. Now I'm not saying that everything can be said or done, that's why there are laws in France against openly racists behaviors and the likes. Charlie Hebdo got sued many times for what they did, but iirc (I may be wrong here) they never got sentenced to anything.
All cultures have value, but they're not equally valuable.
Do you honestly believe that the culture in Sudan is worth as much as the culture of France? I'm sure we can agree that freedom of speech is a significant part of the french culture. Can you please name me something that is worth as much as freedom of speech, which can be found in cultures that don't respect freedom of speech? I sure can't think of anything. The only thing that I would value equally are other freedoms, but when one freedom is not respected, most of the other freedoms tend to not be respected either.
I do honestly believe that the culture in Sudan, even though I'm not an expert of Sudan, is worth as much as the culture of France. And I'd say freedom of speech is not something that is specific to the French culture or to Western cultures in general, contrarily to what many politicians (and the general, common way of thinking in Western countries) say. Freedom of speech, like all the others fundamental freedoms, is probably something every human aspires to : who is happy when he wants to say something, but can't in fear of being jailed/killed/deported/etc? It's governments who decide whether or not the freedom of speech is being respected, and government is not culture. There was not so long ago a government in France which was a dictatorship and thus did not respect freedoms like the freedom of speech. It even replaced our traditional "Liberty, Fraternity, Equality" with "Work, Family, Homeland". Yet the French culture at that time was mostly identical to the French culture of today. So I would say that the government of Sudan (according it is a dictatorship) is not worth as much as the democracy we have in France. But cultures have nothing to do with it.
On January 10 2015 08:08 GreenHorizons wrote: Maybe the appropriate compromise would be "I am Ahmed. The French Muslim cop executed on the street protecting Charlie"
On January 10 2015 07:55 silynxer wrote: One shows solidarity with a satirical newspaper (Charlie refers to the name of the paper) and the other puts words in the mouth of a dead man that imply a moral stance with regards to the newspaper that he most likely did not share.
As soon as "Je suis Charlie" will be used by rightwing idiots to push some horrible agenda I would call that out as well (because from all I know that would run counter to what Charlie was/is about).
Well you could just as easily say "Je ne suis pas Charlie" which gets the same sentiment across.
I don't condone or support charlie Hebdo's publication. I support their right to publish, I believe that those who were shot died needlessly and senselessly, and I abhor the actions of the shooters responsible. I do not however support what charlie hebdo as a magazine publishes, but I do support their right to do so.
I think the people who died trying to protect the writers are the people who deserve the most respect of everyone. the writers shouldn't be on the tallest pedestal, because while some of the comics were satirical and on point, some were really at their core quite offensive. Not all, but some.
So its for me personally a tough thing to say and express. But I support the artists rights, not the art in that sense. I hope this makes sense?
I can understand how people can be offended and feel it is important to respect the beliefs of others and to present them in their best light. So while I believe in free speech, that belief wont overcome my other belief in respect for others and after really looking into some of what charlie hebdo is published, i can't stand by the publication enough to justify my purchase or general support of the paper itself. Though the people, and their right to say what they want, I do support.
I will dissect the tweet to explain why I think it is in poor taste and I think this will answer your post as well. What GreenHorizons seem to focus on is the Voltaire-like part of the statement ("I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.") but this is not all there is to it. It begins with "I am not Charlie." to clearly show disapproval of Charlie but not only that, it continues with "I am Ahmed, the French Muslim police officer." to show disapproval in the name of a victim and strengthen the validity of this disapproval. A person who doesn't know Ahmed or his opinions has no right to use him in this way at all. But why should Charlie be disapproved? We get told because "Charlie ridiculed my religion and prophet". So not only does this get stated as a fact, it is implied that every Muslim should disapprove of Charlie for this reason, again in the name of the victim. I completely disagree with both assertions. Sure, certain aspects of Islam (and other major religions) were mocked by Charlie and maybe you find that tasteless. This does not mean that all of Islam is insulted and in particular it doesn't mean that you as a Muslim need to feel insulted. The value of crass satire lies in the introspection of why you felt so strongly about it. And if my internet knowledge about why it was forbidden to depict Mohammed is only halfway correct (because Mohammed wanted to prevent iconization of his person) then introspection into this particular part of Muslim beliefs is more than needed. This is one part. The other part is proportonality. To spent most of your time to talk about your (in comparison very minor) disapproval of the victims in the face of murder is simply in bad taste and has always the connotation of victim blaming. "Sure he should not have been killed, but Eric Garner did sell illegal cigarettes." (this is just an example, yes the situation is very different but the principle is similar).
EPT
