EPThttp://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/100115/kouachi-coulibaly-le-reseau-terroriste-oublie-par-les-services-de-renseignement
Shots fired at Charlie Hebdo offices - France - Page 100
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/100115/kouachi-coulibaly-le-reseau-terroriste-oublie-par-les-services-de-renseignement | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7925 Posts
On January 10 2015 18:26 esdf wrote: It's a tragedy what happened, but it was obvious it's going to happen. This charlie hebdo must be a sad ass paper if they can only sell by making fun and insulting others. Still doesn't justfiy the killings tho. Nothing can. If you don't know anything about Charlie Hebdo, maybe you should keep your judgments for another day, just out of decency. If you want to understand what they were doing, you would have to go back to Voltaire and read, for example, Candide. There is a long tradition of satire in France, which has been one of the most important, efficient and intelligent engine for social changes. Sexual liberation, secularization, democratization, feminism, all those things have been partly the work of people who continued proudly this voltairian tradition of laughing at bigots, extremists, religious superstition, racists, fascists, and everything that goes under what Voltaire was calling "l'infâme". We owe those people an enormous amount. They were free thinkers, and free people. Just have some respect. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
The terrorists that carried out these attacks paid the ultimate price for their crimes. They threw away their lives and ceased to exist. They must have had an enormous anger, fed and nourished by the agitators who talk and manipulate. Being angry about an injustice or a perceived injustice is normal. What made them angry? Was it really some lines scribbled on a sheet of paper or a screen? A terrorist is not born, neither is a saint. But that can't be an excuse to shift all the blame away from the perpetrators. That would be to easy. A person is formed by others as he/she is formed by him or herself. The terrorists surly were angry, but they are angry at what? France?, the EU?, caricatures?, injustice in the Arab world? Christianity? The ominous West? If you refuse to try to understand why the terrorists did the things they did, how are you ever going to take corrective actions to prevent these things from happening again? It would not be a good idea to ignore what's at work behind the shadows. Understanding these things is paramount and "they were crazy" doesn't cut it at all. Neither does "they were just extremists, just leave it at that". WHY were they extremists? You gotta answer that question if you don't want a repeat. It's not like this is uncommon anymore: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/12/11/01003-20141211ARTFIG00216-afghanistan-un-attentat-suicide-contre-le-centre-culturel-francais-de-kaboul.php | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On January 10 2015 05:35 Incognoto wrote: I am French and I am damn proud to be French. I'm proud of the cultural heritage that we have and I'm proud of all the scientific and cultural things we've brought to the world. Some might see a country as being lines on the map; let them. I don't see a country as something as pitiful on lines on the map. Nor is a country the government in charge. A country is its people. I am very proud to be a French person. I am proud of the French and I'm proud of what France has accomplished in history. That doesn't mean I look down on someone who isn't French. You can be proud of your country without being an idiot. Culture is what defines human societies. Cultures aren't better or worse than one another, they're merely different. Different groups of human beings have agreed to different ways of living together, that is what a nation is. Being intolerant of other cultures is being idiotic; nothing is wrong with loving your own culture. Slightly tangent but I feel it's something that needed to be said. I am glad these terrible events are over. This is probably one of the best posts i have ever read on any forum. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
^ Funny how something as fucking crazy as that is reason enough to kill people when we have so much knowledge on our side as humans. Want to stop this shit from happening? Educate people. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On January 10 2015 10:01 Dazed_Spy wrote: Some ideas (and some people) are worth provoking, as its a catalyst for change. Tip toeing around and respecting the unrespectable is nonsense. You should poke homophobes in the eye (rhetorically speaking), as well as muslims, hindus and Christians, in all but the most extreme 'live and let live, I dont actually believe in my religion, I adopt it for the sake of tradition' sort of cases. Are you seriously trying to say you think something like islamic/christian/[insert any religion here] are going to change because of enough people provoking them?!?!? If that's what you are trying to say i don't know what world you are living in. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On January 10 2015 18:26 esdf wrote: It's a tragedy what happened, but it was obvious it's going to happen. This charlie hebdo must be a sad ass paper if they can only sell by making fun and insulting others. Still doesn't justfiy the killings tho. Nothing can. ... | ||
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esdf
Croatia736 Posts
On January 10 2015 18:36 Biff The Understudy wrote: If you don't know anything about Charlie Hebdo, maybe you should keep your judgments for another day, just out of decency. If you want to understand what they were doing, you would have to go back to Voltaire and read, for example, Candide. There is a long tradition of satire in France, which has been one of the most important, efficient and intelligent engine for social changes. Sexual liberation, secularization, democratization, feminism, all those things have been partly the work of people who continued proudly this voltairian tradition of laughing at bigots, extremists, religious superstition, racists, fascists, and everything that goes under what Voltaire was calling "l'infâme". We owe those people an enormous amount. They were free thinkers, and free people. Just have some respect. From my point of view you can be a free thinker and a free person without trying your best to insult others. I've nothing against satire, but constantly doing same old shit just to provoke certain people is low and cheap. | ||
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On January 10 2015 19:35 esdf wrote: From my point of view you can be a free thinker and a free person without trying your best to insult others. I've nothing against satire, but constantly doing same old shit just to provoke certain people is low and cheap. It's not just to provoke them, it's to make people laugh. It's not like they have to read the fucking comics. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On January 10 2015 19:35 esdf wrote: From my point of view you can be a free thinker and a free person without trying your best to insult others. I've nothing against satire, but constantly doing same old shit just to provoke certain people is low and cheap. I agree with your line of thinking although i would change the "low and cheap" to "stupid in certain situations". Apparently a lot of people (based on this thread) do not agree though. Imo it kinda makes them -- funnily enough -- extremists in a way.. | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On January 10 2015 15:25 Kickstart wrote: Yes that is sort of my point. Most people would like to see, and in my mind deserve to see what the satirical content was. I agree that it is a tough decision to make, but the fact that so many publications will not publish the content out of fear shows that the religious bullies, and indeed the perpetrator's of this particular atrocity are, for lack of a better term, 'winning' in their purported cause to stop the publication of depictions of the prophet. If, as I suggested, every publication went ahead and published the content anyways, it would be impossible for them all to be targeted. And again, do the major media outlets not have a moral obligation to stand up to these types of threats to the free expression of ideals, I posit that those that are able are indeed obligated to do so. If I was in the same scene as these frenchmen who was killed, then I would leave, immediately. Putting my life in danger is just not worth it, not for that cause. I would not be afraid of making fun of other religious groups, politicians or feminists, but muslim fundamentalists are freaking scary. This is exactly what they want us to think, so mission accomplished I guess. But please don't tell the ppl in the media who thinks like that, that they have a obligation to publish these caricatures. They don't have a obligation to risk their lives, and this is what's at stake here. I don't think you fully grasp the severity of this situation. You can't just ignore these ppl and hope that the threat will go away. If you make fun of islam, you put your life in danger. That is a reality right now. A great part of the western freedom of speech/expression was lost in this attack. What we need to figure out is how we can regain this freedom of speech/expression that was lost. Ignoring the threat and being reckless is not the answer. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
On January 10 2015 19:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: Are you seriously trying to say you think something like islamic/christian/[insert any religion here] are going to change because of enough people provoking them?!?!? If that's what you are trying to say i don't know what world you are living in. gays provoked christianity so it changed ... what world are you living in? | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On January 10 2015 20:01 xM(Z wrote: gays provoked christianity so it changed ... what world are you living in? We can cut this off already because that's not what happened at all. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On January 10 2015 19:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: This is probably one of the best posts i have ever read on any forum. Well yeah, the sad thing being that there are a lot of people (in France, but I'm sure in any country) who stop before the "Cultures aren't better or worse than one another" part. On January 10 2015 19:53 raynpelikoneet wrote: I agree with your line of thinking although i would change the "low and cheap" to "stupid in certain situations". Apparently a lot of people (based on this thread) do not agree though. Imo it kinda makes them -- funnily enough -- extremists in a way.. It does not make Charlie Hebdo extremists, for the simple reason that Charlie Hebdo never threatened to kill anyone, and would have never killed anyone. It has been said already, but there will always be people to be offended and to feel provoked, whatever the "offense" is. Now I'm not saying that everything can be said or done, that's why there are laws in France against openly racists behaviors and the likes. Charlie Hebdo got sued many times for what they did, but iirc (I may be wrong here) they never got sentenced to anything. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
If you are an extremist you do use your "rights" in a way that's provocative -- and refuse to not do so even if your common sense tells you to. Being an extremist does not always mean killing, at least for me. | ||
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Wohodix
France34 Posts
On January 10 2015 18:28 WhiteDog wrote: Apparently the three retards were trained by Farid Benyettou and Djamel Beghal, two well known islamic extremists. The cops are studying their computer and found many pedopornographic picture on them... among other things. http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/100115/kouachi-coulibaly-le-reseau-terroriste-oublie-par-les-services-de-renseignement I cant see no source mentioning pedopornographic, right now. you must be member to read the article you post, other papers dont mention it. could you quote directly the article ? Lots of peoples complain -including non religious people - before the attack Charlie hebdo was not fun anymore and was just being insulting and provocationg. Edit : And I can assure nobody really cares anymore of them before the attack except some muslim, and people being annoyed by their behavior. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6328 Posts
On January 10 2015 19:35 esdf wrote: From my point of view you can be a free thinker and a free person without trying your best to insult others. I've nothing against satire, but constantly doing same old shit just to provoke certain people is low and cheap. The thing was people just didn't read the magazine. It could have been for a number of reasons, from poor taste and vulgarity to often devoid of fact/reality 'interpretations' of contemporary news... or it was just plain bad. People simply didn't read Charlie Hedbo, it lived off of a small following that found their work interesting and an inflated sense of self worth. The irony in this whole story is that the magazine was cash strapped and doomed to fail and now they don't even know what to do with all the money coming in. Some back issues are selling for $1000 on ebay, going from a measly 60k to over 1 million copies being printed overnight. If those gunmen had just stayed at home CH would have been finished within the year. Now the amount of people buying it has increased 20x and global media are spamming pictures of muhhamed to a much much larger audience. Good job idiots. | ||
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Wohodix
France34 Posts
The thing was people just didn't read the magazine. It could have been for a number of reasons, from poor taste and vulgarity to often devoid of fact/reality 'interpretations' of contemporary news... or it was just plain bad. People simply didn't read Charlie Hedbo, it lived off of a small following that found their work interesting and an inflated sense of self worth. The irony in this whole story is that the magazine was cash strapped and doomed to fail and now they don't even know what to do with all the money coming in. Some back issues are selling for $1000 on ebay, going from a measly 60k to over 1 million copies being printed overnight. If those gunmen had just stayed at home CH would have been finished within the year. Now the amount of people buying it has increased 20x and global media are spamming pictures of muhhamed to a much much larger audience. Good job idiots. I agree. The situation could be a good plot for south park. | ||
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VelJa
France1109 Posts
On January 10 2015 20:22 Wohodix wrote: I agree. The situation could be a good plot for south park. true | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
On January 10 2015 18:54 Incognoto wrote: I didn't read all of the thread so perhaps all of Holy_Sat's posts are lost to me, but a part of that post on page 99 is sensible enough. If you refuse to try to understand why the terrorists did the things they did, how are you ever going to take corrective actions to prevent these things from happening again? It would not be a good idea to ignore what's at work behind the shadows. Understanding these things is paramount and "they were crazy" doesn't cut it at all. Neither does "they were just extremists, just leave it at that". WHY were they extremists? You gotta answer that question if you don't want a repeat. It's not like this is uncommon anymore: http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/12/11/01003-20141211ARTFIG00216-afghanistan-un-attentat-suicide-contre-le-centre-culturel-francais-de-kaboul.php Your interpretation of my words seems a bit shallow. I do not refuse to understand why they did what they did. I simply can not understand it, and can not understand it in my heart and soul, because it is nonsensical to me. Explanations like they did it because of Islam or they did it because they were crazy or they did it because they were radicalized are not valid to me. They have no meaning, they are words that just brand them like cattle. To me it is of more interest to understand how they got from three boys to this and why and what did they wrong and what did the society wrong? Just looking at where they have ended and not being interested in where they started is a sure way to never prevent these sorts of things to happen in the future. | ||
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