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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On August 08 2016 15:36 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2016 21:06 Elroi wrote:
My own opinion, in short, is that it puts a great strain on any society to welcome a big number of immigrants at the same time, but that the human cost of letting hundreds of thousands of people die or live in inhuman conditions, as slaves or prisonners, is far greater. and they have to pick cooton for their syrian turkish russian overlord. it's just a false narrative to mention inhuman conditions (mostly true) and slavery and death (mostly false) in one sentence for these refugess. but you are a moderate man.
Please educate yourself. Many NGOs have reported about the rise of slavery in the wake of the refugee crisis, especially in the countries close to Syria where the vast majority of the refugees end up. For instance in Lebanon where now approximatley 1.2 million refugees live (one fifth of the countries total population):
Our study found that slavery of Syrian refugees in Lebanon is a rapidly growing concern, which manifests in the following ways:
• Child labour has increased significantly in Lebanon since the start of the conflict in Syria. One leading NGO estimated that between 60 and 70 percent
of Syrian refugee children are working, with child labour rates even higher in the Bekaa Valley. There is strong demand among Lebanese employers for child workers and many are pressed into the worst forms of child labour.
• Syrian refugee girls are increasingly forced into early marriages, especially in Bekaa Valley, Akkar (north Lebanon). While the family’s decision is commonly made to secure the girl’s economic future, there is
a genuine risk that entering a marriage at such a
vulnerable age could result in slavery.
• Evidence strongly suggests that ‘survival sex’ and
sexual exploitation is a growing issue for Syrian and Palestinian Syrian female refugees. Women can be forced or coerced into prostitution or providing ‘sexual favours’ to order to provide food and shelter for their families.
• Forced labour is increasingly common as Syrian refugees become more desperate, so much so that it may even constitute the ‘new norm’. With surging prices for food and rent, coupled with the heavy costs associated with residency renewals, refugee families can quickly fall into debt. This leaves them even more vulnerable to exploitation.
Source: http://freedomfund.org/wp-content/uploads/Lebanon-Report-FINAL-8April16.pdf
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BERLIN (AP) — A Chinese tourist who lost his wallet in Germany signed the wrong paperwork and ended up being placed in a refugee home.
Christoph Schluetermann, an official with the German Red Cross, which runs the home, told news agency dpa on Monday that the man "set machinery in motion that he couldn't get out of."
The unidentified man's troubles started in early July when he lost his wallet after arriving in the southwestern German city of Stuttgart. Officials have figured out that, instead of going to police to file a stolen goods report, he somehow ended up at an authority that presented him with an asylum application.
From there, he was sent to Dortmund in northwestern Germany and on to the refugee home in Duelmen. "He simply did what he was told," Schluetermann said.
Schluetermann said he quickly noticed the man because "he was different from the others — very, very helpless."
With help from a translation app and then from a translator at a Chinese restaurant, it became clear that the man wanted to travel on to France and Italy, not seek asylum.
It took German officials 12 days to put the story together and send the 31-year-old tourist on his way, Schluetermann said.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/9857d1d27320448b93eeb233a3a8d9c1/chinese-tourist-loses-wallet-ends-refugee-home
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On August 08 2016 20:04 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 15:36 Hryul wrote:On August 07 2016 21:06 Elroi wrote:
My own opinion, in short, is that it puts a great strain on any society to welcome a big number of immigrants at the same time, but that the human cost of letting hundreds of thousands of people die or live in inhuman conditions, as slaves or prisonners, is far greater. and they have to pick cooton for their syrian turkish russian overlord. it's just a false narrative to mention inhuman conditions (mostly true) and slavery and death (mostly false) in one sentence for these refugess. but you are a moderate man. Please educate yourself. Many NGOs have reported about the rise of slavery in the wake of the refugee crisis, especially in the countries close to Syria where the vast majority of the refugees end up. For instance in Lebanon where now approximatley 1.2 million refugees live (one fifth of the countries total population): Show nested quote +Our study found that slavery of Syrian refugees in Lebanon is a rapidly growing concern, which manifests in the following ways:
• Child labour has increased significantly in Lebanon since the start of the conflict in Syria. One leading NGO estimated that between 60 and 70 percent
of Syrian refugee children are working, with child labour rates even higher in the Bekaa Valley. There is strong demand among Lebanese employers for child workers and many are pressed into the worst forms of child labour.
• Syrian refugee girls are increasingly forced into early marriages, especially in Bekaa Valley, Akkar (north Lebanon). While the family’s decision is commonly made to secure the girl’s economic future, there is
a genuine risk that entering a marriage at such a
vulnerable age could result in slavery.
• Evidence strongly suggests that ‘survival sex’ and
sexual exploitation is a growing issue for Syrian and Palestinian Syrian female refugees. Women can be forced or coerced into prostitution or providing ‘sexual favours’ to order to provide food and shelter for their families.
• Forced labour is increasingly common as Syrian refugees become more desperate, so much so that it may even constitute the ‘new norm’. With surging prices for food and rent, coupled with the heavy costs associated with residency renewals, refugee families can quickly fall into debt. This leaves them even more vulnerable to exploitation. Source: http://freedomfund.org/wp-content/uploads/Lebanon-Report-FINAL-8April16.pdf
Please never ever again start your fucking post with "educate yourself".
And then continue your posting with a source where the organizations and its CEOs wikipedia entry start with "the world’s first private donor fund dedicated to identifying and investing in the most effective front-line efforts to end slavery" read: written by the same intern.
And it's not helping that you are not adressing the real problem: "we" don't have to chose between
Let all into Germany/Sweden
Let all die and sell the survivors into slavery.
For me, the moderate solution would be to increase the funding for the UN refugee camps.* So people don't have to starve and stretch their "culture" of marrying the girls agains their will to the limit.
And I'm quite sure there are other solutions, like "save zones" inside Syria, if the NATO could get off their high horse and accept that Al'Assad is not going away.
*Yes, I'm donating to them. I think this is the best reasonable and achievable solution.
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On August 09 2016 00:26 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 20:04 Elroi wrote:On August 08 2016 15:36 Hryul wrote:On August 07 2016 21:06 Elroi wrote:
My own opinion, in short, is that it puts a great strain on any society to welcome a big number of immigrants at the same time, but that the human cost of letting hundreds of thousands of people die or live in inhuman conditions, as slaves or prisonners, is far greater. and they have to pick cooton for their syrian turkish russian overlord. it's just a false narrative to mention inhuman conditions (mostly true) and slavery and death (mostly false) in one sentence for these refugess. but you are a moderate man. Please educate yourself. Many NGOs have reported about the rise of slavery in the wake of the refugee crisis, especially in the countries close to Syria where the vast majority of the refugees end up. For instance in Lebanon where now approximatley 1.2 million refugees live (one fifth of the countries total population): Our study found that slavery of Syrian refugees in Lebanon is a rapidly growing concern, which manifests in the following ways:
• Child labour has increased significantly in Lebanon since the start of the conflict in Syria. One leading NGO estimated that between 60 and 70 percent
of Syrian refugee children are working, with child labour rates even higher in the Bekaa Valley. There is strong demand among Lebanese employers for child workers and many are pressed into the worst forms of child labour.
• Syrian refugee girls are increasingly forced into early marriages, especially in Bekaa Valley, Akkar (north Lebanon). While the family’s decision is commonly made to secure the girl’s economic future, there is
a genuine risk that entering a marriage at such a
vulnerable age could result in slavery.
• Evidence strongly suggests that ‘survival sex’ and
sexual exploitation is a growing issue for Syrian and Palestinian Syrian female refugees. Women can be forced or coerced into prostitution or providing ‘sexual favours’ to order to provide food and shelter for their families.
• Forced labour is increasingly common as Syrian refugees become more desperate, so much so that it may even constitute the ‘new norm’. With surging prices for food and rent, coupled with the heavy costs associated with residency renewals, refugee families can quickly fall into debt. This leaves them even more vulnerable to exploitation. Source: http://freedomfund.org/wp-content/uploads/Lebanon-Report-FINAL-8April16.pdf Please never ever again start your fucking post with "educate yourself". And then continue your posting with a source where the organizations and its CEOs wikipedia entry start with "the world’s first private donor fund dedicated to identifying and investing in the most effective front-line efforts to end slavery" read: written by the same intern. And it's not helping that you are not adressing the real problem: "we" don't have to chose between Let all into Germany/Sweden
Let all die and sell the survivors into slavery.
For me, the moderate solution would be to increase the funding for the UN refugee camps.* So people don't have to starve and stretch their "culture" of marrying the girls agains their will to the limit. And I'm quite sure there are other solutions, like "save zones" inside Syria, if the NATO could get off their high horse and accept that Al'Assad is not going away. *Yes, I'm donating to them. I think this is the best reasonable and achievable solution.
I am going to try to answer your post here, but i am not sure that i understand what you are trying to say. your point isn't exactly clear.
1 You said that refugees from Syria are not sold into slavery or that it is a "false narrative". I showed you that a leading NGO (freedom fund) estimates there is indeed a huge market for slave labour in the wake of the war. In lebanon alone they can probably be counted in the hundreds of thousands. (Reuters has made a tldr: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-lebanon-refugees-idUSKCN0X9009)
2 Your criticism of the NGO I simply cannot understand (as in I dont understand your english). But there are many other surveys about slavery I could link you to if you want...
3 on the idea of building refugee camps in syria. The idea is a pipe dream without major military support as you point out. Helping in the neighbouring countries almost always means paying for cheap prisons and there are already millions of refugees in countries like lebanon and jordan. but we have to both help refugees in the area and here in europe to have a realistic chance of doing something about this humanitarian catastrophy. On that point I agree with you.
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On August 08 2016 23:25 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +BERLIN (AP) — A Chinese tourist who lost his wallet in Germany signed the wrong paperwork and ended up being placed in a refugee home.
Christoph Schluetermann, an official with the German Red Cross, which runs the home, told news agency dpa on Monday that the man "set machinery in motion that he couldn't get out of."
The unidentified man's troubles started in early July when he lost his wallet after arriving in the southwestern German city of Stuttgart. Officials have figured out that, instead of going to police to file a stolen goods report, he somehow ended up at an authority that presented him with an asylum application.
From there, he was sent to Dortmund in northwestern Germany and on to the refugee home in Duelmen. "He simply did what he was told," Schluetermann said.
Schluetermann said he quickly noticed the man because "he was different from the others — very, very helpless."
With help from a translation app and then from a translator at a Chinese restaurant, it became clear that the man wanted to travel on to France and Italy, not seek asylum.
It took German officials 12 days to put the story together and send the 31-year-old tourist on his way, Schluetermann said. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/9857d1d27320448b93eeb233a3a8d9c1/chinese-tourist-loses-wallet-ends-refugee-home
haha thanks for sharing
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On August 09 2016 00:26 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 20:04 Elroi wrote:On August 08 2016 15:36 Hryul wrote:On August 07 2016 21:06 Elroi wrote:
My own opinion, in short, is that it puts a great strain on any society to welcome a big number of immigrants at the same time, but that the human cost of letting hundreds of thousands of people die or live in inhuman conditions, as slaves or prisonners, is far greater. and they have to pick cooton for their syrian turkish russian overlord. it's just a false narrative to mention inhuman conditions (mostly true) and slavery and death (mostly false) in one sentence for these refugess. but you are a moderate man. Please educate yourself. Many NGOs have reported about the rise of slavery in the wake of the refugee crisis, especially in the countries close to Syria where the vast majority of the refugees end up. For instance in Lebanon where now approximatley 1.2 million refugees live (one fifth of the countries total population): Our study found that slavery of Syrian refugees in Lebanon is a rapidly growing concern, which manifests in the following ways:
• Child labour has increased significantly in Lebanon since the start of the conflict in Syria. One leading NGO estimated that between 60 and 70 percent
of Syrian refugee children are working, with child labour rates even higher in the Bekaa Valley. There is strong demand among Lebanese employers for child workers and many are pressed into the worst forms of child labour.
• Syrian refugee girls are increasingly forced into early marriages, especially in Bekaa Valley, Akkar (north Lebanon). While the family’s decision is commonly made to secure the girl’s economic future, there is
a genuine risk that entering a marriage at such a
vulnerable age could result in slavery.
• Evidence strongly suggests that ‘survival sex’ and
sexual exploitation is a growing issue for Syrian and Palestinian Syrian female refugees. Women can be forced or coerced into prostitution or providing ‘sexual favours’ to order to provide food and shelter for their families.
• Forced labour is increasingly common as Syrian refugees become more desperate, so much so that it may even constitute the ‘new norm’. With surging prices for food and rent, coupled with the heavy costs associated with residency renewals, refugee families can quickly fall into debt. This leaves them even more vulnerable to exploitation. Source: http://freedomfund.org/wp-content/uploads/Lebanon-Report-FINAL-8April16.pdf For me, the moderate solution would be to increase the funding for the UN refugee camps.* So people don't have to starve and stretch their "culture" of marrying the girls agains their will to the limit.
That would be nice. Refugee numbers right now are higher then after WW2, there really needs to be a global effort.
I would like to see something like 50% of cost carried by countries involved in the conflict and 50% carried by all UN countries.
Might also reduce the time of conflicts. Imagine 190 countries getting bill for refugees and they would be like "yo fuck you USA, Saudi Arabia, France, etc. Stop funding rebels and prolonging the conflict." ;D
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Its also because of an expanded definition of refugee. The Syrian and Afghani refugees are not refugees from specific persecution, they are refugees from a totalitarian regime or set of regimes and general poverty. That is the state most of the world has lived under for much of time.
Basically everyone who lived in China during the Great Leap Forward was a refugee, if we take the name to mean this wave of refugees, which would make the post-WWII numbers much higher.
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Just wanted to update you guys that Seeker is not responding anymore to my message about re-opening the terrorism thread. I guess we'll have to use this one
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2774 Posts
On August 09 2016 08:51 SoSexy wrote:
Just wanted to update you guys that Seeker is not responding anymore to my message about re-opening the terrorism thread. I guess we'll have to use this one
No.
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On August 09 2016 08:51 SoSexy wrote:
Just wanted to update you guys that Seeker is not responding anymore to my message about re-opening the terrorism thread. I guess we'll have to use this one
Take it to Website Feedback.
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One of the most practical solutions in my eyes would be a european solution to what is right now mostly a european problem.
Take in the refugees, distribute them over all of the EU and pay the countries taking in refugees money from the EU. Countries who dont take in refugees pay the other countries. They tried to do it when the crisis started but people where like "naaaaah, we dont want that, better threat people like shit so they flee into the next/better country" (thank you eastern europe btw).
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On August 09 2016 01:24 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2016 00:26 Hryul wrote:On August 08 2016 20:04 Elroi wrote:On August 08 2016 15:36 Hryul wrote:On August 07 2016 21:06 Elroi wrote:
My own opinion, in short, is that it puts a great strain on any society to welcome a big number of immigrants at the same time, but that the human cost of letting hundreds of thousands of people die or live in inhuman conditions, as slaves or prisonners, is far greater. and they have to pick cooton for their syrian turkish russian overlord. it's just a false narrative to mention inhuman conditions (mostly true) and slavery and death (mostly false) in one sentence for these refugess. but you are a moderate man. Please educate yourself. Many NGOs have reported about the rise of slavery in the wake of the refugee crisis, especially in the countries close to Syria where the vast majority of the refugees end up. For instance in Lebanon where now approximatley 1.2 million refugees live (one fifth of the countries total population): Our study found that slavery of Syrian refugees in Lebanon is a rapidly growing concern, which manifests in the following ways:
• Child labour has increased significantly in Lebanon since the start of the conflict in Syria. One leading NGO estimated that between 60 and 70 percent
of Syrian refugee children are working, with child labour rates even higher in the Bekaa Valley. There is strong demand among Lebanese employers for child workers and many are pressed into the worst forms of child labour.
• Syrian refugee girls are increasingly forced into early marriages, especially in Bekaa Valley, Akkar (north Lebanon). While the family’s decision is commonly made to secure the girl’s economic future, there is
a genuine risk that entering a marriage at such a
vulnerable age could result in slavery.
• Evidence strongly suggests that ‘survival sex’ and
sexual exploitation is a growing issue for Syrian and Palestinian Syrian female refugees. Women can be forced or coerced into prostitution or providing ‘sexual favours’ to order to provide food and shelter for their families.
• Forced labour is increasingly common as Syrian refugees become more desperate, so much so that it may even constitute the ‘new norm’. With surging prices for food and rent, coupled with the heavy costs associated with residency renewals, refugee families can quickly fall into debt. This leaves them even more vulnerable to exploitation. Source: http://freedomfund.org/wp-content/uploads/Lebanon-Report-FINAL-8April16.pdf Please never ever again start your fucking post with "educate yourself". And then continue your posting with a source where the organizations and its CEOs wikipedia entry start with "the world’s first private donor fund dedicated to identifying and investing in the most effective front-line efforts to end slavery" read: written by the same intern. And it's not helping that you are not adressing the real problem: "we" don't have to chose between Let all into Germany/Sweden
Let all die and sell the survivors into slavery.
For me, the moderate solution would be to increase the funding for the UN refugee camps.* So people don't have to starve and stretch their "culture" of marrying the girls against their will to the limit. And I'm quite sure there are other solutions, like "save zones" inside Syria, if the NATO could get off their high horse and accept that Al'Assad is not going away. *Yes, I'm donating to them. I think this is the best reasonable and achievable solution. I am going to try to answer your post here, but i am not sure that i understand what you are trying to say. your point isn't exactly clear. 1 You said that refugees from Syria are not sold into slavery or that it is a "false narrative". I showed you that a leading NGO (freedom fund) estimates there is indeed a huge market for slave labour in the wake of the war. In lebanon alone they can probably be counted in the hundreds of thousands. (Reuters has made a tldr: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-lebanon-refugees-idUSKCN0X9009)2 Your criticism of the NGO I simply cannot understand (as in I dont understand your english). But there are many other surveys about slavery I could link you to if you want... 3 on the idea of building refugee camps in syria. The idea is a pipe dream without major military support as you point out. Helping in the neighbouring countries almost always means paying for cheap prisons and there are already millions of refugees in countries like lebanon and jordan. but we have to both help refugees in the area and here in europe to have a realistic chance of doing something about this humanitarian catastrophy. On that point I agree with you.
that's - again - not the point.
your starting point of reason was that there are exactly two different options:
a.) let the refugees into Germany/Sweden
b.) let them die/sell them into slavery
i challenged this very assumption.
And gave the example of he UN refugee camps as a third option.
They are not working as intended right now b/c they are not funded well enough. But they could, if western countries chose to spend more money on them. Then also the problem of "slavery" would go away.
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On August 09 2016 19:41 Hryul wrote:
that's - again - not the point.
your starting point of reason was that there are exactly two different options:
a.) let the refugees into Germany/Sweden
b.) let them die/sell them into slavery
i challenged this very assumption.
And gave the example of he UN refugee camps as a third option.
They are not working as intended right now b/c they are not funded well enough. But they could, if western countries chose to spend more money on them. Then also the problem of "slavery" would go away.
big cons vs such camps:
1. very vulnerable to weather.
2. everything in the camp is build for temporary use. so weather you use containers or tents, for example cleaning facilities or access to water are not very easy to manage.
3. lots of people in one place combined with 1. and 2. makes the camps vulnerable to diseases
4. almost no privacy
5. combine all of the points: a lot of stress for people who are already under a lot of stress makes them more likely to fight with each other over the smallest things
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On August 09 2016 18:55 doc_biceps wrote:
One of the most practical solutions in my eyes would be a european solution to what is right now mostly a european problem.
Take in the refugees, distribute them over all of the EU and pay the countries taking in refugees money from the EU. Countries who dont take in refugees pay the other countries. They tried to do it when the crisis started but people where like "naaaaah, we dont want that, better threat people like shit so they flee into the next/better country" (thank you eastern europe btw).
For a variety of reasons which had been commented over and over. It is not the most practical, it is not even the most effective way to help those in need. It is actually just gallery work. Do you really think that asking them to come, which entails plenty of perils on its own, filters the most apt to reach us while leaving the rest behind, is more practical than properly funding the camps, so even those who can't make it (which is the majority, females, the most poor, etc), can live a somehow more decent live withouth slavery, shitty conditions, etc, etc ?
Blaming eastern european countries for not submitting to Merkel's stupid plan is amazing. Do you know how many applications did we have for Spain ? Check it out, and come again to talk about the quotas, and how you will force refugees to stay in those countries.
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On August 09 2016 20:03 Godwrath wrote:
For a variety of reasons which had been commented over and over. It is not the most practical, it is not even the most effective way to help those in need. It is actually just gallery work. Do you really think that asking them to come, which entails plenty of perils on its own, filters the most apt to reach us while leaving the rest behind, is more practical than properly funding the camps, so even those who can't make it (which is the majority, females, the most poor, etc), can live a somehow more decent live withouth slavery, shitty conditions, etc, etc ?
Blaming eastern european countries for not submitting to Merkel's stupid plan is amazing. Do you know how many applications did we have for Spain ? Check it out, and come again to talk about the quotas, and how you will force refugees to stay in those countries.
Its not about forcing them to stay in a specific country. Its about distributing ressources which are needed to help people equally over different countries.
Where do you imagine those camps and how should they look like? The reason those camps arent founded enough is because they often dont work. How do you force people to stay in those camps?
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On August 09 2016 19:55 doc_biceps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2016 19:41 Hryul wrote:
that's - again - not the point.
your starting point of reason was that there are exactly two different options:
a.) let the refugees into Germany/Sweden
b.) let them die/sell them into slavery
i challenged this very assumption.
And gave the example of he UN refugee camps as a third option.
They are not working as intended right now b/c they are not funded well enough. But they could, if western countries chose to spend more money on them. Then also the problem of "slavery" would go away. big cons vs such camps: 1. very vulnerable to weather. 2. everything in the camp is build for temporary use. so weather you use containers or tents, for example cleaning facilities or access to water are not very easy to manage. 3. lots of people in one place combined with 1. and 2. makes the camps vulnerable to diseases 4. almost no privacy 5. combine all of the points: a lot of stress for people who are already under a lot of stress makes them more likely to fight with each other over the smallest things
1+2+4 are all a question of proper planning and to some degree funding. 3+5 are a spin-off of the former. There are examples of very well-functioning camps, ironically, for all the flak we all like to give Turkey, they have made a prime example of one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/magazine/how-to-build-a-perfect-refugee-camp.html?_r=0
If you read the article, you'll notice the only real con is that the lives of the refugees are "on hold" as they are aware that it is not a home, but a temporary place until they can go back home. However, that con comes with the refugee status and the only way of getting rid of it is either to convert refugees to immigrants or to ensure they can return to their home-country.
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On August 09 2016 20:49 Ghostcom wrote:1+2+4 are all a question of proper planning and to some degree funding. 3+5 are a spin-off of the former. There are examples of very well-functioning camps, ironically, for all the flak we all like to give Turkey, they have made a prime example of one: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/magazine/how-to-build-a-perfect-refugee-camp.html?_r=0If you read the article, you'll notice the only real con is that the lives of the refugees are "on hold" as they are aware that it is not a home, but a temporary place until they can go back home. However, that con comes with the refugee status and the only way of getting rid of it is either to convert refugees to immigrants or to ensure they can return to their home-country.
Of course those camps can work. But only to a certain degree. The article describes the situation in 2014, this one is from April 2016. I wonder if the people still like to live there.
www.telegraph.co.uk
I doubt that the vast number of people coming can be put into such camps. I think they can be a very short-term solution, but in the long run, people have to live in real cities to be able to keep living there lives (going to school, going to work, going to a library, going to the cinema, living in a real house etc.)
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On August 09 2016 21:29 doc_biceps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2016 20:49 Ghostcom wrote:1+2+4 are all a question of proper planning and to some degree funding. 3+5 are a spin-off of the former. There are examples of very well-functioning camps, ironically, for all the flak we all like to give Turkey, they have made a prime example of one: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/magazine/how-to-build-a-perfect-refugee-camp.html?_r=0If you read the article, you'll notice the only real con is that the lives of the refugees are "on hold" as they are aware that it is not a home, but a temporary place until they can go back home. However, that con comes with the refugee status and the only way of getting rid of it is either to convert refugees to immigrants or to ensure they can return to their home-country. Of course those camps can work. But only to a certain degree. The article describes the situation in 2014, this one is from April 2016. I wonder if the people still like to live there. www.telegraph.co.ukI doubt that the vast number of people coming can be put into such camps. I think they can be a very short-term solution, but in the long run, people have to live in real cities to be able to keep living there lives (going to school, going to work, going to a library, going to the cinema, living in a real house etc.)
You are mistaking the lack of support for sufficient camp building for an inherent flaw of camps. Had EU spend the money establishing sufficient camps we would've:
1. Helped more people.
2. Helped the weakest and those in most dire need - and not the ones with the most resources.
3. Discouraged the migration towards Northern Europe (and at least in part prevented the resulting mass-grave in the Mediterranean) .
4. Avoided the current situation in the camps.
Again, refugees are NEVER going to be able to continue living their lives. A refugee is not in a less temporary situation if he travels to Germany than if he is in a camp. It is only when the refugee converts to immigrant or is able to return home that life can go on. To think the issue of temporariness is only pertinent to camps is wrong.
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On August 09 2016 21:47 Ghostcom wrote:
You are mistaking the lack of support for sufficient camp building for an inherent flaw of camps. Had EU spend the money establishing sufficient camps we would've:
1. Helped more people.
2. Helped the weakest and those in most dire need - and not the ones with the most resources.
3. Discouraged the migration towards Northern Europe (and at least in part prevented the resulting mass-grave in the Mediterranean) .
4. Avoided the current situation in the camps.
Again, refugees are NEVER going to be able to continue living their lives. A refugee is not in a less temporary situation if he travels to Germany than if he is in a camp. It is only when the refugee converts to immigrant or is able to return home that life can go on. To think the issue of temporariness is only pertinent to camps is wrong.
I totally agree on your points 3 and 4. On the other hand, I highly doubt that it is logistically possible to create as many camps as needed for the number of refugees, but I lack real numbers to "prove" my point there.
Properly funded camps would have made a "fair" distribution to other places possible (e.g. taking in kids, sick people, families etc from the camps to Europe).
I totally disagree on the "never going to be able to continue living their lives". Yes, some of them will never be able to go back and did what they did before they left their country, but some of them will return IF the war is over (which will hopefully happen at some point). Yes, the "refugee status" as a temporary situation is pertinent in and outside of a camp, but a lot comes down to how refugees feel in the situation. From my own experience, they feel less lost and "homeless" if they are allowed to live in a flat with their family or even with a couple of strangers then they are in bigger accommodation (sorry, I dont know if accommodation is the right word here ...). People need to have something to do (work, learn, acivities) which are much easier achieved in or next to towns and cities.
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On August 08 2016 09:39 LegalLord wrote:
Question for Germans. As far as I've heard, the current Turkey deal with refugees is not particularly popular in Germany. So among those who oppose it, what is considered to be the alternative? Taking more refugees? Building a wall on the border? No plan but just disagreeing with the idea that you have to make deals with nations you don't like because of political realities? I really don't see what solution is being proposed.
Germans love the idea to pay turkey (or anyone really) to take refugees. The issue is the idea that Erdogan uses this deal as leverage against the EU. "Tolerate my Anti-Democratic tendencies or you will be flooded with refugees".
In practice Erdogans position isn´t as strong as people think and the EU isn´t budging on it´s terms. He can´t simply open turkeys borders and expect refugees to just transit through.
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EPT
