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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On August 12 2016 07:52 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2016 07:49 WhiteDog wrote:On August 12 2016 07:16 LegalLord wrote:
In other news, water is wet and people who assumed that terror cells would not be among the refugees were completely wrong. Sadly people will most likely die because of the lack of thinking and preparation of european authorities, and nobody will be accountable for those deaths. Maybe they will just justify it by saying "the chance of dying in a terrorist attack is smaller than the chance of being struck by lightning" or other such denial tactics.
As long as they're not targetted ... That's why I so fucking hate those djihadist. They're cowards who target small people and innocent. French anarchist in the late XIXth century at least had the balls to target a president and deputees.
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The mayor of Cannes has banned the wearing of burqinis on the beaches of the French Riviera resort famous for its annual film festival.
Mayor David Lisnard signed off on the ruling that “access to beaches and for swimming is banned to anyone who does not have [bathing apparel] which respects good customs and secularism,” which is a founding principle of the French republic.
“Beachwear which ostentatiously displays religious affiliation, when France and places of worship are currently the target of terrorist attacks, is liable to create risks of disrupting public order (crowds, scuffles etc) which it is necessary to prevent,” it says.
Thierry Migoule, head of municipal services for the town said: “We are not talking about banning the wearing of religious symbols on the beach ... but ostentatious clothing which refers to an allegiance to terrorist movements which are at war with us,.”
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On August 12 2016 07:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2016 07:16 LegalLord wrote:
In other news, water is wet and people who assumed that terror cells would not be among the refugees were completely wrong. Sadly people will most likely die because of the lack of thinking and preparation of european authorities, and nobody will be accountable for those deaths. And in other news, water is wet.
You act like this is something unusual or outrageous, but it is simple everyday politics.
People die in car accidents or hospitals or cancer or thousands of other causes. And in nearly every single case 'the authorities' could have done more to prevent it or reduce the numbers! And they are almost ever held accountable for their lack of action.
It is highly hypocritical to pick out terrorist attacks as if it is some kind of new issue...
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On August 12 2016 06:34 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 18:14 Morfildur wrote:
I had an interesting experience with immigrants yesterday.
I live right next to a house in which several non-native families live. I assume they are Turkish, because they sound like the guy I used to buy Doner kebab from which is probably just my ignorance of their various languages, but I'll maintain that assumption for the moment.
The older people are always loudly arguing in Turkish - or whatever language they are speaking - and some of the older people apparently can't even speak German. Yesterday, after coming home from work, their children were playing with other non-native children, all maybe 5-8 years old, in front of the house... and they were chattering away in German like any other German child.
After thinking about it, I was wondering which language their children would consider their native language. In 20 years, when those 5-8 year olds have their own children, what language will they speak at home to their children? Probably not Turkish, more likely German.
What about the children of those children? Will they even remember that their family doesn't come from Germany? And the generation after?
So, thinking some more about it, maybe it's not a problem that first generation immigrants don't bother learning the local language. After all, their children go to our school, learn our language and the children of those children will grow up in German speaking households. Sure, that's 50+ years in the future, but some things take time and eventually those immigrant families become just as German as the Germans arguing about immigrants. Sure, it would go faster if immigrants learn the local language and even speak it at home, but in the end the generations after them will assimilate, whether the first generation does or not.
Please excuse the German but its hard to find even the few German sources on the subject let alone english ones. I dont like muslims immigrants much, as you may have noticed, but I absolutely hate Germans like you.
You know what the difference between us is?
You see 6% of Muslims being "affine to violence" and so you hate Muslims.
I see 94% of Muslims being not affine to violence and so I just hate those that are.
40% of Muslims are "fundamentally oriented", whatever that term is supposed to mean (are Catholics that go to church every Sunday and pray before every meal fundamental Catholics?), 60%, i.e. the majority, are not.
Looking at all the statistics you provided, the majority of immigrants are actually decent, hard working human beings. 81.4% of them have a job and contribute to society, all but a few of them are not murderers, rapists and thieves. Yes, less of them work than native Germans percentage wise, but considering the language barriers, worse education and racist/xenophobe people like you that would deny them any job they apply to, that's actually not a bad quota and it most likely will improve over the generations. Yes, statistically more of them are criminal, which is to be expected with people that are poor, poorly educated and come from areas where the strong take what they want and the weak suffer. It's still a tiny group that is actually criminal and the police will deal with them just like they deal with any criminal German.
Most Muslims, just like most other people, are decent people. They just want to live their lives in peace, have a family, make money to sustain it and die of old age.
Yes, there are some violent Muslim people and as far as I concerned they should be shoved back to where they came from, but those Muslims are also hated by the majority of Muslims and judging people by their religion and origin instead of their deeds is... well, not something I support.
I hate violent people, no matter where they come from or what they believe in, and, as it happens, I also hate Germans like you that hate a whole population group for the deeds of a minority. Violent, criminal immigrants are a problem, definitely, but that's not because they are Muslim, that's because they are violent and criminal.
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On August 12 2016 17:02 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2016 06:34 Yuljan wrote:On August 10 2016 18:14 Morfildur wrote:
I had an interesting experience with immigrants yesterday.
I live right next to a house in which several non-native families live. I assume they are Turkish, because they sound like the guy I used to buy Doner kebab from which is probably just my ignorance of their various languages, but I'll maintain that assumption for the moment.
The older people are always loudly arguing in Turkish - or whatever language they are speaking - and some of the older people apparently can't even speak German. Yesterday, after coming home from work, their children were playing with other non-native children, all maybe 5-8 years old, in front of the house... and they were chattering away in German like any other German child.
After thinking about it, I was wondering which language their children would consider their native language. In 20 years, when those 5-8 year olds have their own children, what language will they speak at home to their children? Probably not Turkish, more likely German.
What about the children of those children? Will they even remember that their family doesn't come from Germany? And the generation after?
So, thinking some more about it, maybe it's not a problem that first generation immigrants don't bother learning the local language. After all, their children go to our school, learn our language and the children of those children will grow up in German speaking households. Sure, that's 50+ years in the future, but some things take time and eventually those immigrant families become just as German as the Germans arguing about immigrants. Sure, it would go faster if immigrants learn the local language and even speak it at home, but in the end the generations after them will assimilate, whether the first generation does or not.
Please excuse the German but its hard to find even the few German sources on the subject let alone english ones. I dont like muslims immigrants much, as you may have noticed, but I absolutely hate Germans like you. You know what the difference between us is? You see 6% of Muslims being "affine to violence" and so you hate Muslims. I see 94% of Muslims being not affine to violence and so I just hate those that are. 40% of Muslims are "fundamentally oriented", whatever that term is supposed to mean (are Catholics that go to church every Sunday and pray before every meal fundamental Catholics?), 60%, i.e. the majority, are not. Looking at all the statistics you provided, the majority of immigrants are actually decent, hard working human beings. 81.4% of them have a job and contribute to society, all but a few of them are not murderers, rapists and thieves. Yes, less of them work than native Germans percentage wise, but considering the language barriers, worse education and racist/xenophobe people like you that would deny them any job they apply to, that's actually not a bad quota and it most likely will improve over the generations. Yes, statistically more of them are criminal, which is to be expected with people that are poor, poorly educated and come from areas where the strong take what they want and the weak suffer. It's still a tiny group that is actually criminal and the police will deal with them just like they deal with any criminal German. Most Muslims, just like most other people, are decent people. They just want to live their lives in peace, have a family, make money to sustain it and die of old age. Yes, there are some violent Muslim people and as far as I concerned they should be shoved back to where they came from, but those Muslims are also hated by the majority of Muslims and judging people by their religion and origin instead of their deeds is... well, not something I support. I hate violent people, no matter where they come from or what they believe in, and, as it happens, I also hate Germans like you that hate a whole population group for the deeds of a minority. Violent, criminal immigrants are a problem, definitely, but that's not because they are Muslim, that's because they are violent and criminal.
Hate breeds hate, it's a simple fact. I don't see how you can go around that. We are in fact seeing it in these two posts. The hate of one person is returned by the other. Shower people with love and they will not be able to hate you. Well, a very small percentage of them [where them = all people, regardless of their nationality/religion] might, but by far and large most will not.
Please stop + Show Spoiler +In the words of my favorite band... Open your eyes. Time to wake up. Enough is enough.
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And in other news, water is wet.
You act like this is something unusual or outrageous, but it is simple everyday politics.
People die in car accidents or hospitals or cancer or thousands of other causes. And in nearly every single case 'the authorities' could have done more to prevent it or reduce the numbers! And they are almost ever held accountable for their lack of action.
It is highly hypocritical to pick out terrorist attacks as if it is some kind of new issue...
Good job for doing mental gymnastics to deny reality. You are like flat earth people, or people who truly beleive the earth is 6000 years old. Whatever what you tell them they won't change their mind
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No matter what would happen, nothing would change your mind. You will always be able to "reason" your way out, create arguments and relativise current events.
While you may think this is because you are very smart and that your viewpoint is the only good. The truth is your arsenal of arguments and your tactics are really cheap because they are unfalsifiable.
Even if contradicting events occur your arguments will still lead to the same conclusion. This shouldn't be possible. Meaning theres absolutely no point in arguing with you.
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D_lux, Just ignore those guys justifiying everything - they are as bad as the terrorists.
When after the Bataclan the first reaction by some people was 'it was our fault for drawing cartoons', you can just roll your eyes.
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I never heard anyone anywhere saying this...
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I did read it, but when the Charlie Hebdo attack happened, not at Bataclan.
Same with that movie and Benghazi, so it's not something unheard of.
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I think its fine to make jokes (ala cartoon about Muhammed or anything else you feel like joking about), but do you really not understand that sending war to other countries will make the people who have to endure that war more likely to put in effort to resist it in any way they see possible? Did you not just see that the hatred from Yuljan literally and almost immediately inspired someone else to hate him right back? Like, right in front of your eyes? That is exactly what is causing some people to act out... And, since you will obviously consider yourself the more reasonable person, it is your responsibility to stop it, or this cycle will forever continue.
I am literally sitting here with tears in my eyes from seeing this very cycle of hatred unfold in this thread right now.
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On August 12 2016 19:22 a_flayer wrote:
I think its fine to make jokes (ala cartoon about Muhammed or anything else you feel like joking about), but do you really not understand that sending war to other countries will make the people who have to endure that war more likely to put in effort to resist it in any way they see possible? Did you not just see that the hatred from Yuljan literally and almost immediately inspired someone else to hate him right back? Like, right in front of your eyes? That is exactly what is causing some people to act out... And, since you will obviously consider yourself the more reasonable person, it is your responsibility to stop it, or this cycle will forever continue.
I am literally sitting here with tears in my eyes from seeing this very cycle of hatred unfold in this thread right now. well, maybe this will make it easier for you: you could see it as an ideological thing and not as a personal thing.
on a personal level you get(end up with) to hate, on an ideological level you work with who's more right which is not that bad because it lacks the practical application/the emotional involvement of the former.
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On August 12 2016 19:22 a_flayer wrote:
I think its fine to make jokes (ala cartoon about Muhammed or anything else you feel like joking about), but do you really not understand that sending war to other countries will make the people who have to endure that war more likely to put in effort to resist it in any way they see possible? Did you not just see that the hatred from Yuljan literally and almost immediately inspired someone else to hate him right back? Like, right in front of your eyes? That is exactly what is causing some people to act out... And, since you will obviously consider yourself the more reasonable person, it is your responsibility to stop it, or this cycle will forever continue.
I am literally sitting here with tears in my eyes from seeing this very cycle of hatred unfold in this thread right now.
You are taking things said on the internet too serious.
I actually don't hate Yuljan because he's just a few bytes on the internet and might not even really exist for all I know, so he isn't worth the effort. If I met him in reallife, I'd shrug and move on, because I prefer to avoid spending any time with xenophobes and bigots. That hate sentence was pretty much hyperbole for effect. It's more of a strong aversion than actual hate 
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Norway28695 Posts
On August 12 2016 18:45 SoSexy wrote:
D_lux, Just ignore those guys justifiying everything - they are as bad as the terrorists.
When after the Bataclan the first reaction by some people was 'it was our fault for drawing cartoons', you can just roll your eyes.
How are they as bad as the terrorists? I expect a well thought out reply from you explaining how being accepting of muslims despite what you might very well consider an alarming rate of them harboring dangerous thoughts because you believe mutual understanding and acceptance of cultures is a requirement for peaceful coexistence is as bad as deliberately attempting to kill as many civilians as possible in an attempt to create as much suffering and terror as you possibly can do.
If you are unable to actually phrase a coherent argument to back up your previous statement, as I expect, I then expect you to in the future adjust your language so you don't end up saying really fucking dumb shit. Thank you.
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On August 12 2016 20:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2016 18:45 SoSexy wrote:
D_lux, Just ignore those guys justifiying everything - they are as bad as the terrorists.
When after the Bataclan (edit: I had in mind Charlie Hebdo, but it happened at Bataclan too) the first reaction by some people was 'it was our fault for drawing cartoons', you can just roll your eyes. How are they as bad as the terrorists? I expect a well thought out reply from you explaining how being accepting of muslims despite what you might very well consider an alarming rate of them harboring dangerous thoughts because you believe mutual understanding and acceptance of cultures is a requirement for peaceful coexistence is as bad as deliberately attempting to kill as many civilians as possible in an attempt to create as much suffering and terror as you possibly can do. If you are unable to actually phrase a coherent argument to back up your previous statement, as I expect, I then expect you to in the future adjust your language so you don't end up saying really fucking dumb shit. Thank you.
What are you talking about? I am simply stating a truth - there were western people whose first move after Charlie Hebdo/Bataclan was to blame the victims instead of the terrorists. The circle continues everytime there is a terrorist attack. If you want to dispute this, go on.
There are people who believe the artists at Charlie Hebdo deserved death because they drew cartoons. If you do that, you are on par with terrorists. No excuses.
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Norway28695 Posts
On August 12 2016 19:51 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2016 19:22 a_flayer wrote:
I think its fine to make jokes (ala cartoon about Muhammed or anything else you feel like joking about), but do you really not understand that sending war to other countries will make the people who have to endure that war more likely to put in effort to resist it in any way they see possible? Did you not just see that the hatred from Yuljan literally and almost immediately inspired someone else to hate him right back? Like, right in front of your eyes? That is exactly what is causing some people to act out... And, since you will obviously consider yourself the more reasonable person, it is your responsibility to stop it, or this cycle will forever continue.
I am literally sitting here with tears in my eyes from seeing this very cycle of hatred unfold in this thread right now. You are taking things said on the internet too serious. I actually don't hate Yuljan because he's just a few bytes on the internet and might not even really exist for all I know, so he isn't worth the effort. If I met him in reallife, I'd shrug and move on, because I prefer to avoid spending any time with xenophobes and bigots. That hate sentence was pretty much hyperbole for effect. It's more of a strong aversion than actual hate
This type of stoic approach is a healthy approach to take on a personal level, but it also to some degree represents a thought-version of the tragedy of the commons. Thoughts, feelings and expressions multiply. If too many people take the approach of indifference, that becomes the prevailing attitude. I guess that's preferable to too many people taking the approach of anger - but I think a_flayer's sadness and despair is entirely on point - what we need is more people taking the approach of love. Which might be individually stupid, but collectively, it's our only hope for peaceful coexistence.
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Norway28695 Posts
On August 12 2016 20:35 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2016 20:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 12 2016 18:45 SoSexy wrote:
D_lux, Just ignore those guys justifiying everything - they are as bad as the terrorists.
When after the Bataclan (edit: I had in mind Charlie Hebdo, but it happened at Bataclan too) the first reaction by some people was 'it was our fault for drawing cartoons', you can just roll your eyes. How are they as bad as the terrorists? I expect a well thought out reply from you explaining how being accepting of muslims despite what you might very well consider an alarming rate of them harboring dangerous thoughts because you believe mutual understanding and acceptance of cultures is a requirement for peaceful coexistence is as bad as deliberately attempting to kill as many civilians as possible in an attempt to create as much suffering and terror as you possibly can do. If you are unable to actually phrase a coherent argument to back up your previous statement, as I expect, I then expect you to in the future adjust your language so you don't end up saying really fucking dumb shit. Thank you. What are you talking about? I am simply stating a truth - there were western people whose first move after Charlie Hebdo/Bataclan was to blame the victims instead of the terrorists. The circle continues everytime there is a terrorist attack. If you want to dispute this, go on. There are people who believe the artists at Charlie Hebdo deserved death because they drew cartoons. If you do that, you are on par with terrorists. No excuses.
I am terribly sorry, but your post entirely fails in addressing what I asked for. You initially said 'D_lux, just ignore those guys justifying everything - they are as bad as the terrorists.'. Considering D_lux was responding to a person in this thread, (specifically, lord_nibbler) I can only but assume that you consider lord_nibbler one of those guys who 'justifies everything - and who is as bad as those terrorists'. At no point in this thread, or elsewhere, have I seen lord_nibbler say that the artists at charlie hebdo deserved to die because they drew cartoons. However, what I do see, is you saying that lord_nibbler is as bad as the terrorists. I want you to justify this statement, or preferably, because it is a really stupid statement, to simply retract it and adjust your future posting style to avoid making similar blunders in the future. I think we would all benefit from this, lord_nibbler through not being equated with terrorists, you through not being perceived as an idiot, and all the rest of us through not having to read your nonsense.
Additionally, I myself identify as a pro-immigrant, pro-refugee, pro-accepting muslims and other people from different cultures despite the knowledge that many of them harbor thoughts I think are dangerous for our society. I can understand and accept that people vehemently disagree with me regarding this, but what I do not accept is the idea that I, or others with similar mindsets 'thought the charlie hebdo artists deserved to die'. I have quite extensive knowledge regarding both my own thought processes and the thought processes of other people who share my views on immigration, because I interact with many of these people on a fairly regular basis, and I have never, not once, seen a single pro-immigrant, pro-cultural acceptance, pro-refugee, say that the artists at charlie hebdo deserved to die. I realize that there are muslim non-terrorists who believe this, but these are not the people you accuse of 'justifying everything'. You are attributing people with thoughts that they have never expressed because you prefer arguing with a parody over arguing with a real person, and I am telling you that this is entirely unproductive, and it is preferable to all of us if you stop doing this. Thank you.
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Liquid'Drone for President.
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EPT
