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On September 18 2015 00:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 00:11 dismiss wrote:On September 18 2015 00:04 Plansix wrote:On September 18 2015 00:00 dismiss wrote:
Amother thing I thought off: I wonder how long you could finance a decent living in one of the nearby states for the exorbitant sums the refugees are spending to come to Europe. All the stuff I've heard pins the price for the entire journey at $7.000-10.000. The issue is that you have no ability to work, educate kids, obtain medical coverage if you need it. So once the money runs out, you’re fucked even more so than now. And this war isn’t ending in the near future. But I am sure that was some peoples plan 4 years ago. I mean they'd probably get all the help the refugees currently living in those countries are getting, so their expenses shouldn't be that large. Yes, but that could end at any time and then they are also fucked. And I have no idea where they are keeping the money, to be honest. I don't think they have access to banks. If they want to return home ever, they will need money to do so. And they might never be able to go back and that aid isn't forever.
But that sounds like stuff nearly everyone has to deal with. No one is guaranteed to have good living conditions etc., even in Europe. For example there are around ~80.000 homeless people in the UK and ~360.000 in Germany.
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On September 18 2015 00:20 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 00:16 Plansix wrote:On September 18 2015 00:11 dismiss wrote:On September 18 2015 00:04 Plansix wrote:On September 18 2015 00:00 dismiss wrote:
Amother thing I thought off: I wonder how long you could finance a decent living in one of the nearby states for the exorbitant sums the refugees are spending to come to Europe. All the stuff I've heard pins the price for the entire journey at $7.000-10.000. The issue is that you have no ability to work, educate kids, obtain medical coverage if you need it. So once the money runs out, you’re fucked even more so than now. And this war isn’t ending in the near future. But I am sure that was some peoples plan 4 years ago. I mean they'd probably get all the help the refugees currently living in those countries are getting, so their expenses shouldn't be that large. Yes, but that could end at any time and then they are also fucked. And I have no idea where they are keeping the money, to be honest. I don't think they have access to banks. If they want to return home ever, they will need money to do so. And they might never be able to go back and that aid isn't forever. But that sounds like stuff nearly everyone has to deal with. No one is guaranteed to have good living conditions etc., even in Europe.
You can attempt to get a job right now. They can't until they gain refugee status in a country that will let them have it. Until then they can't do anything but wait.
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On September 18 2015 00:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 00:20 dismiss wrote:On September 18 2015 00:16 Plansix wrote:On September 18 2015 00:11 dismiss wrote:On September 18 2015 00:04 Plansix wrote:On September 18 2015 00:00 dismiss wrote:
Amother thing I thought off: I wonder how long you could finance a decent living in one of the nearby states for the exorbitant sums the refugees are spending to come to Europe. All the stuff I've heard pins the price for the entire journey at $7.000-10.000. The issue is that you have no ability to work, educate kids, obtain medical coverage if you need it. So once the money runs out, you’re fucked even more so than now. And this war isn’t ending in the near future. But I am sure that was some peoples plan 4 years ago. I mean they'd probably get all the help the refugees currently living in those countries are getting, so their expenses shouldn't be that large. Yes, but that could end at any time and then they are also fucked. And I have no idea where they are keeping the money, to be honest. I don't think they have access to banks. If they want to return home ever, they will need money to do so. And they might never be able to go back and that aid isn't forever. But that sounds like stuff nearly everyone has to deal with. No one is guaranteed to have good living conditions etc., even in Europe. You can attempt to get a job right now. They can't until they gain refugee status in a country that will let them have it. Until then they can't do anything but wait.
Idk, it seems pretty hard to get a job without having accommodation and stuff like that sorted out. Especially if you look like an actual hobo.
But that wasn't the point anyway. Rather, it served to illustrate that no one can guarantee you that you'll have a good life 10 years from now on. Not even in rich countries so it seems silly to make that a condition for the viability of a plan on what the refugees should do.
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According to BBC, only 20% of the migrants are Syrians. About 40% of the migrants are people from the Balkans.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34270077
More interesting reflections in the article above. It's quite the complicated phenomenon alright.
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I am not a fan of cutting countries apart in general. Almost always the benefit is imaginary and the cost to national strength is very severe.
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That's kind of the idea of cutting countries up. To give precedence to the self determination of people rather than to an idea of a nationalistic military or economic strength.
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Economic strength is the most important part in the current era. People forget that number of social contracts that are in place just from being a nation. That the trust in colleges, medical facilities, banks, loans, currency are all based on the social currency built up over the years. And that they would have to start from the beginning if they suddenly decided to create a new country.
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I was actually reading homage to catalonia from george orwell lately and was shocked to learn that most if not the entirety of the revolutionaries were from catalonia.
When I listen to the TV, most of the people present the desire for independance coming from catalan to be the result of their priviledged position within espania (the rich that refuse to pay for the poor basically), but does history also plays an important role in the justification for independance coming from catalans ? I would glady hear a little from a spanish about this.
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On September 18 2015 05:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
That's kind of the idea of cutting countries up. To give precedence to the self determination of people rather than to an idea of a nationalistic military or economic strength.
While even a country like Great Britain is really conflicted about leaving the EU because of the terrible economics consequences it would cause, imagine how a newly created country would do ? It would be sandwiched between 2 of the EU powerhouse, it would probably not be recognize as a country to begin with by the EU members, and even if they did, the instant veto from Spain, and probably GB would make it impossible the Catalunya to survive for even a year.
Aso, IIRC, Catalunya was bankrupt not long ago, and it was refused to get loan, Spain had to intervain and cover the debt right ? How can an entity that can't already substain itself while being patroned by Spain survive alone in a world that is ignoring you ?
All because "muh indentity"... Lol seriously... it's not like Catalan havn't shared hundred of years of common history with the rest of spain right ? right ?
FFS, even Flanders isn't that radical about spitting with Wallonia when they are truly the powerhouse of the country and would probably do better without the shackles... And they have much less in common than Catalans and the rest of the Iberic penensula.
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On September 18 2015 05:45 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 05:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
That's kind of the idea of cutting countries up. To give precedence to the self determination of people rather than to an idea of a nationalistic military or economic strength. While even a country like Great Britain is really conflicted about leaving the EU because of the terrible economics consequences it would cause, imagine how a newly created country would do ? It would be sandwiched between 2 of the EU powerhouse, it would probably not be recognize as a country to begin with by the EU members, and even if they did, the instant veto from Spain, and probably GB would make it impossible the Catalunya to survive for even a year. Aso, IIRC, Catalunya was bankrupt not long ago, and it was refused to get loan, Spain had to intervain and cover the debt right ? How can an entity that can't already substain itself while being patroned by Spain survive alone in a world that is ignoring you ?
All because "muh indentity"... Lol seriously... it's not like Catalan havn't shared hundred of years of common history with the rest of spain right ? right ? FFS, even Flanders isn't that radical about spitting with Wallonia when they are truly the powerhouse of the country and would probably do better without the shackles... And they have much less in common than Catalans and the rest of the Iberic penensula.
Catalunya pays more in taxes than it receives iirc. So while they might have gone bankrupt (I'm not sure if this happened do you have a source for it?) their debts might have been sustainable if they directly received all taxes. This is all just a big guess from me though so take it with a grain of salt.
On September 18 2015 05:13 LegalLord wrote:
I am not a fan of cutting countries apart in general. Almost always the benefit is imaginary and the cost to national strength is very severe.
I am not a fan of it but if a majority of the Catalans want independence I don't see why you should forcefully make them stay in Spain.
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On September 18 2015 06:10 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 05:45 Faust852 wrote:On September 18 2015 05:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
That's kind of the idea of cutting countries up. To give precedence to the self determination of people rather than to an idea of a nationalistic military or economic strength. While even a country like Great Britain is really conflicted about leaving the EU because of the terrible economics consequences it would cause, imagine how a newly created country would do ? It would be sandwiched between 2 of the EU powerhouse, it would probably not be recognize as a country to begin with by the EU members, and even if they did, the instant veto from Spain, and probably GB would make it impossible the Catalunya to survive for even a year. Aso, IIRC, Catalunya was bankrupt not long ago, and it was refused to get loan, Spain had to intervain and cover the debt right ? How can an entity that can't already substain itself while being patroned by Spain survive alone in a world that is ignoring you ?
All because "muh indentity"... Lol seriously... it's not like Catalan havn't shared hundred of years of common history with the rest of spain right ? right ? FFS, even Flanders isn't that radical about spitting with Wallonia when they are truly the powerhouse of the country and would probably do better without the shackles... And they have much less in common than Catalans and the rest of the Iberic penensula. Catalunya pays more in taxes than it receives iirc. So while they might have gone bankrupt (I'm not sure if this happened do you have a source for it?) their debts might have been sustainable if they directly received all taxes. This is all just a big guess from me though so take it with a grain of salt. Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 05:13 LegalLord wrote:
I am not a fan of cutting countries apart in general. Almost always the benefit is imaginary and the cost to national strength is very severe. I am not a fan of it but if a majority of the Catalans want independence I don't see why you should forcefully make them stay in Spain.
2012 : http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/25/uk-spain-catalonia-idUKBRE84O0N820120525
2013 : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-21254010
Also, Spain hold 2/3 of Catalunya debt, so a separation would put Spain in huge shit, because Catalunya would not pay, but in the other side, Catalunya would not be able to borrow money, for ever ever.
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I'm actually a little worried about all these secessionists movements propping up everywhere. "self-determination of the people" sounds a little bit like a euphemism for tribalism to me. We had Balkanization in Eastern Europe not so long ago, conflicts along ethnic and religions lines often don't turn out very well for anybody.
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Imho that just depends.
Entire sections of a country living under a goverment/in a country they don't see themselves to be an actual part of is also not exactly a road to peace  .
Its more about how to deal with this, than anything else. If the Scots would have said yes, we probably would have an example of how to do it. But as it is now, we can just wait and see.
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On September 18 2015 04:43 Faust852 wrote:Catalonia would not be part of the EU if they declare their independence.So this is kinda huge, but already predictable. So Catalonia will probably never get its independence as long as the EU exist. Imho that's for the best, that make no sense in these day and age to be this nationalistic and this attached to some stupid invisible culture differences.
I think it's really dumb. Firstly, there is no reason to deny them an instant membership and secondly, it feels undemocratic because they're trying to use economic pressure to force Catalonia to remain a part of Spain. I don't actually believe they would kick Catalonia out if it really decided to be independent but saying that they would feels like threatening. I think a lot of separatist movements in Europe are ill-founded or generally stupid (like our Silesian movement) but there are better arguments that this.
It would be easier (and probably cheaper) to change the European treaties instead of temporarily kicking Catalonia out of the union.
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On September 18 2015 05:45 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 05:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
That's kind of the idea of cutting countries up. To give precedence to the self determination of people rather than to an idea of a nationalistic military or economic strength. While even a country like Great Britain is really conflicted about leaving the EU because of the terrible economics consequences it would cause, imagine how a newly created country would do ? It would be sandwiched between 2 of the EU powerhouse, it would probably not be recognize as a country to begin with by the EU members, and even if they did, the instant veto from Spain, and probably GB would make it impossible the Catalunya to survive for even a year. Aso, IIRC, Catalunya was bankrupt not long ago, and it was refused to get loan, Spain had to intervain and cover the debt right ? How can an entity that can't already substain itself while being patroned by Spain survive alone in a world that is ignoring you ? All because "muh indentity"... Lol seriously... it's not like Catalan havn't shared hundred of years of common history with the rest of spain right ? right ? FFS, even Flanders isn't that radical about spitting with Wallonia when they are truly the powerhouse of the country and would probably do better without the shackles... And they have much less in common than Catalans and the rest of the Iberic penensula.
You should probably read some news before spouting that much drivel.
1. Catalunya is an economic powerhouse of Spain, and Catalans themselves maintain they would be an even greater powerhouse if it wasn't almost mandatory for companies to maintain their headquarters in Madrid if operating at a national level. Of course, how much of that is true, and how much is wishful thinking is a matter of interpretation. Fact is that the tax money Catalunya pays to the central government is vastly more than the benefits they receive. Some things are actually insane, such as all of Catalunya being a mass of toll roads in order to keep them funded, while virtually unused roads in Andalusia are beautifully maintained and completely free. The squeeze was particularly felt during the economic crisis, when Catalans felt that they could have used the money to keep their own economy running a lot better than the federal mismanagement. It also does not help at all that the federal government is conservative, and a majority of Catalans are progressive.
2. The Catalans are culturally different from other Spanish regions, as other Spanish regions are from each other. Fact is that Spain is a hodge podge of different states that have all sorta worked together in a union since the 15th century. There are 4 (5 if you consider Valencià as separate from Catalan, 6 if you further consider Balearic as separate from Catalan, and 7 if you consider Andalus different from Castilian) different language: Euskadi (with separate dialects for Basque and Navarran regions), Galician, Castilian and Catalan, but cultural differences go beyond that, and in many ways, the Basque region, Catalunya and Andalusia, for instance, feel like completely different countries.
3. Catalunya was horribly oppressed under Franco (as were the Basques). They weren't allowed to speak their language in the street, and there was a huge resettling operation that moved Andalusians to Catalunya in an attempt to stifle the Catalan culture. This has completely backfired, btw, because some of the most radical Catalan independents I know are the offspring of Andalusians who were forced to resettle. They were also economically repressed, with Franco's planned economy centralizing all industry in Madrid. This especially hurt, because Barcelona was actually a front runner of the industrial revolution and had its industry well together before it got bombed to hell in the civil war. Franco's hegemony was not long enough ago for this to have been forgotten, and the majority still remember it vividly.
4. Catalunya has a reduced form of autonomy in comparison to Basque country (more accurately: the Basque country, and Navarra, have privileged positions with regards to all the other provinces), and all attempt to renegotiate a more federated structure with more autonomy for Catalunya has been consistently refused by the government in Madrid.
It is thus very very unsurprising that the Catalans are pissed off and clamouring for independence. A more reasonable outcome will be that Spain renegotiates the terms of autonomy, perhaps with all provinces and not just Catalunya, and they settle back into the same somewhat unhappy truce they have maintained for the last 500 years.
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Catalans should have the right to secede. I think there are many demons in the details though:
- Does Catalonia have to leave the EU? So they all lose their Spanish passport? Is it going to be optional?
- Is Spain going to veto every move to integrate Catalonia into the EU and the Eurozone? Can they possibly stay in the Euro?
- More importantly, what happens to El Clasico? Do Catalonian clubs stay in La Liga or is the Catalonian league going to become something like the Scottish league with Barça being the new Celtic?
- Does Catalonia inherit part of the Spanish debt? Does Spain become a poorer country with a lower status after this?
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On September 18 2015 06:54 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2015 05:45 Faust852 wrote:On September 18 2015 05:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
That's kind of the idea of cutting countries up. To give precedence to the self determination of people rather than to an idea of a nationalistic military or economic strength. While even a country like Great Britain is really conflicted about leaving the EU because of the terrible economics consequences it would cause, imagine how a newly created country would do ? It would be sandwiched between 2 of the EU powerhouse, it would probably not be recognize as a country to begin with by the EU members, and even if they did, the instant veto from Spain, and probably GB would make it impossible the Catalunya to survive for even a year. Aso, IIRC, Catalunya was bankrupt not long ago, and it was refused to get loan, Spain had to intervain and cover the debt right ? How can an entity that can't already substain itself while being patroned by Spain survive alone in a world that is ignoring you ? All because "muh indentity"... Lol seriously... it's not like Catalan havn't shared hundred of years of common history with the rest of spain right ? right ? FFS, even Flanders isn't that radical about spitting with Wallonia when they are truly the powerhouse of the country and would probably do better without the shackles... And they have much less in common than Catalans and the rest of the Iberic penensula. You should probably read some news before spouting that much drivel. 1. Catalunya is an economic powerhouse of Spain, and Catalans themselves maintain they would be an even greater powerhouse if it wasn't almost mandatory for companies to maintain their headquarters in Madrid if operating at a national level. Of course, how much of that is true, and how much is wishful thinking is a matter of interpretation. Fact is that the tax money Catalunya pays to the central government is vastly more than the benefits they receive. Some things are actually insane, such as all of Catalunya being a mass of toll roads in order to keep them funded, while virtually unused roads in Andalusia are beautifully maintained and completely free. The squeeze was particularly felt during the economic crisis, when Catalans felt that they could have used the money to keep their own economy running a lot better than the federal mismanagement. It also does not help at all that the federal government is conservative, and a majority of Catalans are progressive. 2. The Catalans are culturally different from other Spanish regions, as other Spanish regions are from each other. Fact is that Spain is a hodge podge of different states that have all sorta worked together in a union since the 15th century. There are 4 (5 if you consider Valencià as separate from Catalan, 6 if you further consider Balearic as separate from Catalan, and 7 if you consider Andalus different from Castilian) different language: Euskadi (with separate dialects for Basque and Navarran regions), Galician, Castilian and Catalan, but cultural differences go beyond that, and in many ways, the Basque region, Catalunya and Andalusia, for instance, feel like completely different countries. 3. Catalunya was horribly oppressed under Franco (as were the Basques). They weren't allowed to speak their language in the street, and there was a huge resettling operation that moved Andalusians to Catalunya in an attempt to stifle the Catalan culture. This has completely backfired, btw, because some of the most radical Catalan independents I know are the offspring of Andalusians who were forced to resettle. They were also economically repressed, with Franco's planned economy centralizing all industry in Madrid. This especially hurt, because Barcelona was actually a front runner of the industrial revolution and had its industry well together before it got bombed to hell in the civil war. Franco's hegemony was not long enough ago for this to have been forgotten, and the majority still remember it vividly. 4. Catalunya has a reduced form of autonomy in comparison to Basque country (more accurately: the Basque country, and Navarra, have privileged positions with regards to all the other provinces), and all attempt to renegotiate a more federated structure with more autonomy for Catalunya has been consistently refused by the government in Madrid. It is thus very very unsurprising that the Catalans are pissed off and clamouring for independence. A more reasonable outcome will be that Spain renegotiates the terms of autonomy, perhaps with all provinces and not just Catalunya, and they settle back into the same somewhat unhappy truce they have maintained for the last 500 years.
And what are you saying that disprove what I said ?
Even if there are culture difference, that doesn't mean it should claims its independence. If that was the case there would be over 100 hundred countries in the current EU zone alone.
Belgium has 3 fucking communities, where people speak either French, Flemish or German. Most of the french speaker don't speak flemish, and vis versa, and the german speaker stay in their corner too.
There are a lot of russians communities in the eastern Europe, Alsace got a special status in France. Corsica, Pays Basque ?
Seriously in these days and age people should be able to get along ffs.
And you said Catalunya is a powerhouse, and while I don't deny that, it was still bankrupt 2 years ago and was bailout by Spain.
btw, the separationist movment is really recent, probably 5-6 years ago, it wasn't "that" bad for catalans.
Anyway, they would lose their EU status because Catalunya as a country was never in the EU to begin with. Same things happened to Scotland.
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On September 18 2015 00:00 dismiss wrote:
Amother thing I thought off: I wonder how long you could finance a decent living in one of the nearby states for the exorbitant sums the refugees are spending to come to Europe. All the stuff I've heard pins the price for the entire journey at $7.000-10.000.
because at least in germany we dont have proper immigration laws. the idea that people may relocate and live in a different place is still completely alien to most germans. the typical german just stays in his hometown and never moves out of it until he dies.
sometimes we are pretty stupid :|
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EPT
