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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
for people eating up the whole migrants are good for the economy angle:
- based on the statistics and data presented here, 90%+ of balkan migrants get rejected and 90%+ of syrians get accepted.
how does that work?. are balkan migrants worse for economy than syrian migrants?. why?. they figured that coming from an even more fucked up place would make one work for less money or what?.
the idea is that if those economical benefits are not the reason or one of the reasons migrants get accepted then it's just a justification after the fact. that, in my book, makes it not even worth considering or talking about in this situation.
it's stupid politics. hey look!, migrants happened during our rule and people got a little iffy so let's just cover our asses by making stuff up. it doesn't even matter if it's factual or not as long as it's something that will make people talk and shift the attention somewhere else.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On September 17 2015 15:19 xM(Z wrote:
for people eating up the whole migrants are good for the economy angle:
- based on the statistics and data presented here, 90%+ of balkan migrants get rejected and 90%+ of syrians get accepted.
how does that work?. are balkan migrants worse for economy than syrian migrants?. why?. they figured that coming from an even more fucked up place would make one work for less money or what?.
the idea is that if those economical benefits are not the reason or one of the reasons migrants get accepted then it's just a justification after the fact. that, in my book, makes it not even worth considering or talking about in this situation.
it's stupid politics. hey look!, migrants happened during our rule and people got a little iffy so let's just cover our asses by making stuff up. it doesn't even matter if it's factual or not as long as it's something that will make people talk and shift the attention somewhere else.
I don't think anyone from the pro asylum side of the argument brings up the economic benefit of immigration originally. It's usually in response to people favoring rejecting refugees for economic reasons.
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hmm ok(not saying that i agree with you on who starts what, but for argument's sake), but even so, that just gives the situation a time line. meaning, in the short term, paying for migrants is obviously an economic loss and in the long term, well ... it depends, <see studies>.
so i don't know, it's a clear cut issue based on timespan. some argue how they are bad now and the others counter with "yea, but they could be good later". that's not even ... i don't know, it's like talking passed each other.
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On September 17 2015 03:21 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 03:12 Banaora wrote:On September 17 2015 02:23 Toadesstern wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:On September 17 2015 01:56 Sermokala wrote:
Economically all of them are desirable. Look at America it only takes a generation or so for indoctrination to set in with the kids and then suddenly they're good working citizens. Poor people are going to work hard to feed their kids and take shitty jobs to support them. You can't look at them like they're people you have to look at them like cogs in your economic machine.
The point is that the men are trying to earn money to get somewhere were they can bring the rest of their family over. USAs illegals are treated like shit and we still get them paying way more in taxes then they take out in services. That's having your cake and eating it too. The thing is that people, when they take that "economical" argument, put aside the fact that the society is divided by different interests and groups. Immigration profit certain people, that's it. In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration). The left in europe right now is constantly using that economical argument to support their desire to welcome refugees (E. Balibar even wrote a piece saying it will force europe into changing their economical policies ! who seriously believe that ?) shows very well how the current left is liberal to its core. well from a german point of view, as the country that recently even "surpassed" Japan when it comes to having the lowest birthrate, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find negative things about it. We just flat out won't have the people to pay for pensions for people who can't work anymore come 20 or 30 more years right now. I personally think there is something wrong in our country that we as Germans have such a low birth rate especially compared to France and I would rather prefer we changed our policy in this regard than using the low birth rate as an "excuse" why we need immigration. The current immigration of 1 Mio seekers of refugee status will in my opinion change our country in the long term and nobody was really asked if he wants that. Let's assume 50% get accepted, then they are allowed to take their family to Germany so I'm just guessing now we would have maybe 1 Mio new immigrants that can get residence status after some years or if they have to go later usually get tolerated to stay as most will not get deported if they are successfully integrated into our society. And this is just for 2015 and will probably continue. Yes we are solving our ageing population problem this way but no one can know at what costs. Will the integration be a success? There are resources bound to that that could have gone into other projects maybe to show solidarity with poor families in Germany or projects in southern Europe to create jobs. Sure you can argue you are playing out refugees against other issues on the other side money can only be spent once and maybe it's a better idea not to advertise to everybody to come to Germany with their cultures to seek safety here. Do you want to force people to have babies? Because I'm pretty sure there are efforts to make germans want more babies... it's just that they don't seem to work. If you want it or not, we need more young people if we want to keep our pension system alive In the end it's a problem people brought upon themselves, so I really couldn't care less about people whining about that sort of thing. People don't want to have babies, people don't want to have immigrants, people don't want to have cuts in pensions... Maybe we should have invested more money into cloning research rather than anything else. + Show Spoiler +I might not be 100% serious with my last paragraph
hell no we would ban cloneing in an instant. we hate new things.
new humans? we hate them. new people? we hate them as well! even if something isnt new but was opressed and somewhat hidden like homosexuality we hate it.
we dont even like new governments thats why we like to stick to one for decades.
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On September 17 2015 04:37 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 04:24 kwizach wrote:On September 17 2015 03:32 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2015 02:40 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdfHere's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy. That report doesn't' address wages being driven down or the economy. Only the drain on local government due to the US's total inability to have a realistic immigration police. Immigration isn't bad on its own, only that being an illegal immigrant is bad for the immigrant and the local government. There's a direct correlation between how much income tax you pay and your economic impact. z_z Mette Foged, Giovanni Per (2014), Immigrants and Native Workers: New Analysis Using Longitudinal Employer-Employee Data: We focus on a largely unexplored inflow of non-European (EU) immigrants to Denmark, beginning in 1995 and driven by a sequence of international political crises, the Bosnian, Somalian and Iraqi one and economic crises, the Turkey depression of 1994-95. We find that the increased supply of non-EU immigrants in a Danish municipality pushed the less educated native workers to pursue more complex and less manual-intensive occupations. This reallocation took place mainly through movement of individuals across firms and resulted in higher or unchanged wages. Immigration increased mobility of natives across firms but it did not increase their probability of unemployment." (emphasis mine) Source. The study you cited did not cover the impact on wages, and it conveniently left out the positive impact on federal finances. Overall, the net fiscal impact of immigration is positive in most countries, and the effect on wages is negligible (it can have a slightly negative impact for the lower-skilled workers, but not necessarily -- as evidenced in the paper I just posted). This is not to say that we support immigration first and foremost for economic reasons, as WhiteDog falsely implied, but simply that economic arguments against immigration, and in this case against welcoming the refugees who reach Europe, are largely baseless. Don't have time to read the whole thing right now but that sounds like the pressure on the low wage jobs increased and some of the people managed to better their lot by gaining more qualifications? I'd be interested how well this scales on a large basis. Read, how likely is this effect to occur in a country with low unemployment and primary demand for highly qualified people.
The problem is that it depend on the economical and historical context. 1990-2000 were good years for most developped countries (growth in the US, difficulties for Germany true, good growth for France, etc.). It is very far from our current situation (where we have had a crisis on par with 1930 and still facing the repercussion). Various studies in the US can show completly different results in the economic impact of migrants through out history (and from one studies to another, which is why I believe it is useless to quote studies for this subject) : nobody here is saying that migrants will have any bad impact on Germany, but saying that it will necessarily have a good impact on Greece (when Greeks already leave the country at a rather important rate) is also absurd.
I add to that that the society is not a complete and unified sphere but an entity fractured in various groups that, altho each dependant with the other, are also in opposition. Those studies - and the economy as a science - denies this reality, and thus evaluate the effect of migrants on the economy overall. What I'm trying to say is that it most likely will have a negative effect on the less educated, the poorest and the weakest in our society (while it will certainly profit the richest and the GDP).
Anyway, we're not welcoming refugees for economic purposes.
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On September 17 2015 04:31 dismiss wrote:
The problem in Germany for example is the incredibly poor integration policy by the state though. I had a quick look around what you'd need to get an approbation.
That is IF they want integration. But I doubt it, these people, at least majority of them, expect to continue their lives in a way that suits them without consideration or willingness to adapt to the culture that adopts them.
I just read THIS few minutes ago. This is bullshit, as soon as they are safe they start making demands to cancel one of the most famous festivals in the world, because it insults them? Are they aware that by demanding this they are the ones insulting the Germans? As if, they werent aware that Germany's culture was vastly different than theirs before embarking on their journey to get there, so it begs the question why did they go there in the first place? Its a rhetorical question, we all know the answer even if some dont want to admit it for whatever reasons they have.
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On September 17 2015 19:52 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 04:31 dismiss wrote:
The problem in Germany for example is the incredibly poor integration policy by the state though. I had a quick look around what you'd need to get an approbation. That is IF they want integration. But I doubt it, these people, at least majority of them, expect to continue their lives in a way that suits them without consideration or willingness to adapt to the culture that adopts them. I just read THIS few minutes ago. This is bullshit, as soon as they are safe they start making demands to cancel one of the most famous festivals in the world, because it insults them? Are they aware that by demanding this they are the ones insulting the Germans? As if, they werent aware that Germany's culture was vastly different than theirs before embarking on their journey to get there, so it begs the question why did they go there in the first place? Its a rhetorical question, we all know the answer even if some dont want to admit it for whatever reasons they have.
I'll sign any petition that ask Germany to send those beautiful german girls drinking beers and smiling in France to teach us how to be more efficient and productive.
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Germany will ban its gay parades soon too.
yea, nothing changes ...
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On September 17 2015 19:52 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 04:31 dismiss wrote:
The problem in Germany for example is the incredibly poor integration policy by the state though. I had a quick look around what you'd need to get an approbation. That is IF they want integration. But I doubt it, these people, at least majority of them, expect to continue their lives in a way that suits them without consideration or willingness to adapt to the culture that adopts them. I just read THIS few minutes ago. This is bullshit, as soon as they are safe they start making demands to cancel one of the most famous festivals in the world, because it insults them? Are they aware that by demanding this they are the ones insulting the Germans? As if, they werent aware that Germany's culture was vastly different than theirs before embarking on their journey to get there, so it begs the question why did they go there in the first place? Its a rhetorical question, we all know the answer even if some dont want to admit it for whatever reasons they have.
Is there a reason why something signed by 200 persons is relevant ?
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On September 17 2015 20:21 Godwrath wrote:
Is there a reason why something signed by 200 persons is relevant ?
It actually could be a lie. I just checked their quoted source DW, but there is no such information on that link. Searched for it on other sites, couldnt find anything. The only thing DW reports is concern that something along those lines could happen, and it appears that the link I quoted tries to stir up public opinion by making things up. Even Richard Dawkins is asking for the authenticity of this petition on his Twitter: link. Here is the actual petition, but dunno how much of this is true, however it is done in really really bad taste, even if its fake. link
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On September 17 2015 20:33 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 20:21 Godwrath wrote:
Is there a reason why something signed by 200 persons is relevant ? It actually could be a lie. I just checked their quoted source DW, but there is no such information on that link. Searched for it on other sites, couldnt find anything. The only thing DW reports is concern that something along those lines could happen, and it appears that the link I quoted tries to stir up public opinion by making things up. Even Richard Dawkins is asking for the authenticity of this petition on his Twitter: link. Here is the actual petition, but dunno how much of this is true, however it is done in really really bad taste, even if its fake. link
Even if it was true, its "signed" by 200 people. There are 4,000,000 Muslims in Germany. With a little time I could find a number of equally stupid petitions in the US, including not teaching Shakespeare in schools.
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France won't hesitate to restore border control
I'm so sad the BS Merkel did is destroying EU as a whole.
First with the greek crisis, we saw some kind of separation between south and north of EU, for absolutly nothing in return.
Now Schengen is on the verge of being break for good too. I bet the Euro will follow soon enough ...
Also, BBC doing biased BS again, editing out the "Allah Akhbar"s from video footage. (If they werent stupid they should know it isn't a racism battlecry anyway...
Support for German right-wing party rises amid refugee crisis
Welp, even germans are starting to stop worrying about being labeled as nazis, good griefs. I hope that Merkel get booted next elections.
Also, Illegal economics migrants are buying Syrian passport for less than 800€. I suppose a good bunch of Jihadists and Terrorists are also doing that.
Also random stuff I read in the last 2 days :
- Refugees are doing a hunger strike in Hungary's border because Hungary refuse to let them pass if they don't register as asylum seeker (so goo for people fleeing war isn't it ?).
-Same thing will happen in Slovenia.
-Hungary might enlarge its iron curtain to Romania.
-Germany being an ass, cutting EU fund to countries who refuse quota (talk about EU being a germany puppet organization).
- Dalai Lama think we can't take'em all. I dare you to call the Dalai Lama a nazi.
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yea, Hungary is building fences on the border with Romania but it's a dance between us and them. we call them instigators and backstabbers (they, allegedly, have some paramilitary units in eastern-ish Transylvania waiting for the go ahead), they say we stole their country and it goes round and round.
what is funny thou is that when the vote regarding quotas was cast in EUs parliament, the only romanians voting against were the 2 UDMR members; UDMR is an hungarian/maghiar ethnic based party we have here which allegedly is ran by Orban&Co.
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On September 17 2015 22:35 xM(Z wrote:
yea, Hungary is building fences on the border with Romania.
I think Romania is getting fucked way too hard by Merkel's EU. Seriously, your country spent >€700m to secure your border, left you in the wait list for Schengen for like 4 years. Now they fuck with you guys asking to take a chunk of the unwanted refugees after Merkel realizes she can't take them all.
Still not in Schengen, and threatened of economics sanctions.
Sorry guys ;(
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Stuff like the fighting at the Hungarian border and this passport business really makes you lose sympathy with people in a shitty situation. :/
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On September 17 2015 22:44 dismiss wrote:
Stuff like the fighting at the Hungarian border and this passport business really makes you lose sympathy with people in a shitty situation. :/
That is going to happen no matter what. There are always people looking to take advantage of others desperation. And we will have to see how good the forgeries are and how many people are using them. The story doesn’t provide numbers, so it might not be wide spread.
The fighting is the fighting. From the BBC reports, it sounded a couple conflicts. But nothing got super violent. Just tear gas.
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On September 17 2015 22:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 22:44 dismiss wrote:
Stuff like the fighting at the Hungarian border and this passport business really makes you lose sympathy with people in a shitty situation. :/ That is going to happen no matter what. There are always people looking to take advantage of others desperation. And we will have to see how good the forgeries are and how many people are using them. The story doesn’t provide numbers, so it might not be wide spread. The fighting is the fighting. From the BBC reports, it sounded a couple conflicts. But nothing got super violent. Just tear gas.
By European standards, tear gas IS super violent. You forgot your USA bias, where it only qualifies as violent if at least 5 people end up dead.
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It's more about the principle of the thing. You are being compassionate towards other people because of their plight, which really doesn't need to concern you and then elements of said group turn around and spit in the face of those willing to help.
The cynic in me also wants to say that it displays the blantant disregard of the refugees for our rules and regulations. I mean they are rebelling at the Hungarian border because it absolutely NEEDS to be the registration in Germany/Sweden, nothing else will do for them apparently.
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@Faust852: well it's somewhat ironic that Germany had us build a little Berlin wall+ Show Spoiler + between the romanians from Romania and the romanians from Moldova.
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On September 17 2015 22:59 dismiss wrote:
It's more about the principle of the thing. You are being compassionate towards other people because of their plight, which really doesn't need to concern you and then elements of said group turn around and spit in the face of those willing to help.
The cynic in me also wants to say that it displays the blantant disregard of the refugees for our rules and regulations. I mean they are rebelling at the Hungarian border because it absolutely NEEDS to be the registration in Germany/Sweden, nothing else will do for them apparently.
You should view it for what it was, frustrated people who are exposed to the elements trying to get to safety and their path was blocked. They are frustrated and protested the blocking of the path and there was an outburst. And they have to travel a long distance to a new location that might not let them through either.
It would be nice if they didn’t’ have to travel to far and could be process and assigned asylum nations earlier on. But that process isn’t finalized and some nations are dragging their feet. No one wants to be the one to say the refugees can’t come, but everyone wants some other country to take them.
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EPT
