|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too.
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf
Here's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy.
|
On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too.
Yeah people are not as mobile as the market needs them to be, this reinforce the fact that immigration in those countries is negative.
Migrants buy stuff with which money exactly ? Most of the money the migrants get will be given to them by cutting in other expense (for the government, I believe Schauble already said he would find 500 m of budgetary cuts ?) so the global demand does not change.
As for the fact that immigration bring down wage, I don't have datas for you - there are tons of study on the case but no clear answers (basically the idea is that immigration has positive impact on wage above a certain degree of qualification and for specific people - native more than migrants - but negative impact on lower wage, but most studies are based on models and thus the results vastly change from one model to another). But it's an old fact that anybody knows ; competition bring price down.
|
On September 17 2015 02:40 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdfHere's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy.
That report doesn't' address wages being driven down or the economy. Only the drain on local government due to the US's total inability to have a realistic immigration police. Immigration isn't bad on its own, only that being an illegal immigrant is bad for the immigrant and the local government.
|
On September 17 2015 02:43 WhiteDog wrote:
As for the fact that immigration bring down wage, I don't have datas for you - there are tons of study on the case but no clear answers (basically the idea is that immigration has positive impact on wage above a certain degree of qualification and for specific people - native more than migrants - but negative impact on lower wage, but most studies are based on models and thus the results vastly change from one model to another). But it's an old fact that anybody knows ; competition bring price down.
Is it really competition though? We have over a hundred thousand apprenticeship positions open every year(I figure other European countries have similar problems) and there's a notorious lack of people in less paying service sector jobs like nurses, elderly care, maintenance and so on. These jobs simply never get filled and it's definitely not like people are fighting over them and already now many people working in these areas are working class immigrants.
|
On September 17 2015 02:23 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:On September 17 2015 01:56 Sermokala wrote:
Economically all of them are desirable. Look at America it only takes a generation or so for indoctrination to set in with the kids and then suddenly they're good working citizens. Poor people are going to work hard to feed their kids and take shitty jobs to support them. You can't look at them like they're people you have to look at them like cogs in your economic machine.
The point is that the men are trying to earn money to get somewhere were they can bring the rest of their family over. USAs illegals are treated like shit and we still get them paying way more in taxes then they take out in services. That's having your cake and eating it too. The thing is that people, when they take that "economical" argument, put aside the fact that the society is divided by different interests and groups. Immigration profit certain people, that's it. In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration). The left in europe right now is constantly using that economical argument to support their desire to welcome refugees (E. Balibar even wrote a piece saying it will force europe into changing their economical policies ! who seriously believe that ?) shows very well how the current left is liberal to its core. well from a german point of view, as the country that recently even "surpassed" Japan when it comes to having the lowest birthrate, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find negative things about it. We just flat out won't have the people to pay for pensions for people who can't work anymore come 20 or 30 more years right now.
I personally think there is something wrong in our country that we as Germans have such a low birth rate especially compared to France and I would rather prefer we changed our policy in this regard than using the low birth rate as an "excuse" why we need immigration.
The current immigration of 1 Mio seekers of refugee status will in my opinion change our country in the long term and nobody was really asked if he wants that. Let's assume 50% get accepted, then they are allowed to take their family to Germany so I'm just guessing now we would have maybe 1 Mio new immigrants that can get residence status after some years or if they have to go later usually get tolerated to stay as most will not get deported if they are successfully integrated into our society. And this is just for 2015 and will probably continue.
Yes we are solving our ageing population problem this way but no one can know at what costs. Will the integration be a success?
There are resources bound to that that could have gone into other projects maybe to show solidarity with poor families in Germany or projects in southern Europe to create jobs.
Sure you can argue you are playing out refugees against other issues on the other side money can only be spent once and maybe it's a better idea not to advertise to everybody to come to Germany with their cultures to seek safety here.
|
On September 17 2015 03:12 Banaora wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:23 Toadesstern wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:On September 17 2015 01:56 Sermokala wrote:
Economically all of them are desirable. Look at America it only takes a generation or so for indoctrination to set in with the kids and then suddenly they're good working citizens. Poor people are going to work hard to feed their kids and take shitty jobs to support them. You can't look at them like they're people you have to look at them like cogs in your economic machine.
The point is that the men are trying to earn money to get somewhere were they can bring the rest of their family over. USAs illegals are treated like shit and we still get them paying way more in taxes then they take out in services. That's having your cake and eating it too. The thing is that people, when they take that "economical" argument, put aside the fact that the society is divided by different interests and groups. Immigration profit certain people, that's it. In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration). The left in europe right now is constantly using that economical argument to support their desire to welcome refugees (E. Balibar even wrote a piece saying it will force europe into changing their economical policies ! who seriously believe that ?) shows very well how the current left is liberal to its core. well from a german point of view, as the country that recently even "surpassed" Japan when it comes to having the lowest birthrate, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find negative things about it. We just flat out won't have the people to pay for pensions for people who can't work anymore come 20 or 30 more years right now. I personally think there is something wrong in our country that we as Germans have such a low birth rate especially compared to France and I would rather prefer we changed our policy in this regard than using the low birth rate as an "excuse" why we need immigration. The current immigration of 1 Mio seekers of refugee status will in my opinion change our country in the long term and nobody was really asked if he wants that. Let's assume 50% get accepted, then they are allowed to take their family to Germany so I'm just guessing now we would have maybe 1 Mio new immigrants that can get residence status after some years or if they have to go later usually get tolerated to stay as most will not get deported if they are successfully integrated into our society. And this is just for 2015 and will probably continue. Yes we are solving our ageing population problem this way but no one can know at what costs. Will the integration be a success? There are resources bound to that that could have gone into other projects maybe to show solidarity with poor families in Germany or projects in southern Europe to create jobs. Sure you can argue you are playing out refugees against other issues on the other side money can only be spent once and maybe it's a better idea not to advertise to everybody to come to Germany with their cultures to seek safety here.
Do you want to force people to have babies? Because I'm pretty sure there are efforts to make germans want more babies... it's just that they don't seem to work. If you want it or not, we need more young people if we want to keep our pension system alive
In the end it's a problem people brought upon themselves, so I really couldn't care less about people whining about that sort of thing.
People don't want to have babies, people don't want to have immigrants, people don't want to have cuts in pensions... Maybe we should have invested more money into cloning research rather than anything else.
+ Show Spoiler +I might not be 100% serious with my last paragraph
|
On September 17 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:40 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdfHere's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy. That report doesn't' address wages being driven down or the economy. Only the drain on local government due to the US's total inability to have a realistic immigration police. Immigration isn't bad on its own, only that being an illegal immigrant is bad for the immigrant and the local government.
There's a direct correlation between how much income tax you pay and your economic impact. z_z
|
On September 17 2015 03:32 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2015 02:40 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdfHere's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy. That report doesn't' address wages being driven down or the economy. Only the drain on local government due to the US's total inability to have a realistic immigration police. Immigration isn't bad on its own, only that being an illegal immigrant is bad for the immigrant and the local government. There's a direct correlation between how much income tax you pay and your economic impact. z_z
Yes, but that all related to the immigrants being illegal, not always paying taxes and not being paid as much because they were illegal. And that it was bad for local governments because of those issues. It doesn’t address legal immigration, which is what the poster above was asking about.
|
On September 17 2015 03:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 03:32 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2015 02:40 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdfHere's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy. That report doesn't' address wages being driven down or the economy. Only the drain on local government due to the US's total inability to have a realistic immigration police. Immigration isn't bad on its own, only that being an illegal immigrant is bad for the immigrant and the local government. There's a direct correlation between how much income tax you pay and your economic impact. z_z Yes, but that all related to the immigrants being illegal, not always paying taxes and not being paid as much because they were illegal. It doesn’t address legal immigration, which is what the poster above was asking about.
Oh sorry, maybe I didn't express my point clearly. It's more about comparing the different sectors, so to speak, of all migrants. Asylum seekers and illegals will fall into a much more similar category than those allowed in by the strict Canadian/British/German migration laws. There are many factors that disadvantage these groups on the labour market when compared to highly skilled migrants who came in in an ordered fashion with a job offer already on the table.
|
On September 17 2015 03:45 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 03:36 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2015 03:32 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2015 02:40 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdfHere's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy. That report doesn't' address wages being driven down or the economy. Only the drain on local government due to the US's total inability to have a realistic immigration police. Immigration isn't bad on its own, only that being an illegal immigrant is bad for the immigrant and the local government. There's a direct correlation between how much income tax you pay and your economic impact. z_z Yes, but that all related to the immigrants being illegal, not always paying taxes and not being paid as much because they were illegal. It doesn’t address legal immigration, which is what the poster above was asking about. Oh sorry, maybe I didn't express my point clearly. It's more about comparing the different sectors, so to speak, of all migrants. Asylum seekers and illegals will fall into a much more similar category than those allowed in by the strict Canadian/British/German migration laws. There are many factors that disadvantage these groups on the labour market when compared to highly skilled migrants who came in in an ordered fashion with a job offer already on the table.
Actually no. Once asylum seekers are granted asylum, you can far rather compare them to legal (economic) immigrants in terms of what their economic impact is. They will have a work permit, and pay income taxes after all.
|
It's really not comparable . Illegal workers probably work way below minimum wages, which makes a huge difference in addition to the fact that they pay taxes.
|
So you wouldn't say their probable inability to speak the local language when they arrive, hardship to get their qualifications recognised, forced location by the immigration office and bias for the local populace on the labour market doesn't put them into a disadvantaged position?
|
On September 17 2015 02:50 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:43 WhiteDog wrote:
As for the fact that immigration bring down wage, I don't have datas for you - there are tons of study on the case but no clear answers (basically the idea is that immigration has positive impact on wage above a certain degree of qualification and for specific people - native more than migrants - but negative impact on lower wage, but most studies are based on models and thus the results vastly change from one model to another). But it's an old fact that anybody knows ; competition bring price down. Is it really competition though? We have over a hundred thousand apprenticeship positions open every year(I figure other European countries have similar problems) and there's a notorious lack of people in less paying service sector jobs like nurses, elderly care, maintenance and so on. These jobs simply never get filled and it's definitely not like people are fighting over them and already now many people working in these areas are working class immigrants.
1) I disagree with the argument that people don't want to do certain jobs (it's more a question of information / qualification / indirect costs for accepting the jobs that explain the lack of people in certain fields) ;
2) These jobs would get filled with the proper policies and wages. It just cost less for the state (and has more benefits for big business) to stay at the same wage level and to bring in fresh workers who accept those wages.
But, putting this aside, it's just untrue : migrants also works in very competitive field, like in the construction or in the industry. The idea that adding more people in a depressed labor market does not create any negative effect for the weakest people that compete in the market is just a fairy tail. Putting this aside is also the best way to misunderstand the resentment the people usually feel towards immigration (and to blame it all on an irrationnal racism).
|
Yes, but they have legal protections and access to services that illegal immigrants lack. There are non-profits and other groups that assist refugees in finding jobs and stability. Illegal immigrants do not have that and often do not pay taxes.
|
On September 17 2015 03:32 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2015 02:40 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdfHere's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy. That report doesn't' address wages being driven down or the economy. Only the drain on local government due to the US's total inability to have a realistic immigration police. Immigration isn't bad on its own, only that being an illegal immigrant is bad for the immigrant and the local government. There's a direct correlation between how much income tax you pay and your economic impact. z_z
Mette Foged, Giovanni Per (2014), Immigrants and Native Workers: New Analysis Using Longitudinal Employer-Employee Data:
We focus on a largely unexplored inflow of non-European (EU) immigrants to Denmark, beginning in 1995 and driven by a sequence of international political crises, the Bosnian, Somalian and Iraqi one and economic crises, the Turkey depression of 1994-95. We find that the increased supply of non-EU immigrants in a Danish municipality pushed the less educated native workers to pursue more complex and less manual-intensive occupations. This reallocation took place mainly through movement of individuals across firms and resulted in higher or unchanged wages. Immigration increased mobility of natives across firms but it did not increase their probability of unemployment." (emphasis mine) Source.
The study you cited did not cover the impact on wages, and it conveniently left out the positive impact on federal finances. Overall, the net fiscal impact of immigration is positive in most countries, and the effect on wages is negligible (it can have a slightly negative impact for the lower-skilled workers, but not necessarily -- as evidenced in the paper I just posted). This is not to say that we support immigration first and foremost for economic reasons, as WhiteDog falsely implied, but simply that economic arguments against immigration, and in this case against welcoming the refugees who reach Europe, are largely baseless.
|
On September 17 2015 04:16 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but they have legal protections and access to services that illegal immigrants lack. There are non-profits and other groups that assist refugees in finding jobs and stability. Illegal immigrants do not have that and often do not pay taxes.
The problem in Germany for example is the incredibly poor integration policy by the state though. I had a quick look around what you'd need to get an approbation. You need to be able to speak German at at least the B2 level, realistically more like C1. A mandatory German language course will get you nowhere near that, I'd guess it'd probably take you somewhere between 1-2 years to get there if you do nothing but learn to speak the language. Then you need to find a hospital that'll want to employ you, which is going to be hard because they don't even know if you qualify. Then you have to take some tests/get your qualification reviewed. It's quite common for them to tell simply tell you to fuck off if it's not from a Western country. All in all that'll take years. Gotta eat somehow during that time. Without having real qualification, they'll be hard pressed to find anything but the shittiest of jobs.
|
On September 17 2015 03:21 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 03:12 Banaora wrote:On September 17 2015 02:23 Toadesstern wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:On September 17 2015 01:56 Sermokala wrote:
Economically all of them are desirable. Look at America it only takes a generation or so for indoctrination to set in with the kids and then suddenly they're good working citizens. Poor people are going to work hard to feed their kids and take shitty jobs to support them. You can't look at them like they're people you have to look at them like cogs in your economic machine.
The point is that the men are trying to earn money to get somewhere were they can bring the rest of their family over. USAs illegals are treated like shit and we still get them paying way more in taxes then they take out in services. That's having your cake and eating it too. The thing is that people, when they take that "economical" argument, put aside the fact that the society is divided by different interests and groups. Immigration profit certain people, that's it. In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration). The left in europe right now is constantly using that economical argument to support their desire to welcome refugees (E. Balibar even wrote a piece saying it will force europe into changing their economical policies ! who seriously believe that ?) shows very well how the current left is liberal to its core. well from a german point of view, as the country that recently even "surpassed" Japan when it comes to having the lowest birthrate, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find negative things about it. We just flat out won't have the people to pay for pensions for people who can't work anymore come 20 or 30 more years right now. I personally think there is something wrong in our country that we as Germans have such a low birth rate especially compared to France and I would rather prefer we changed our policy in this regard than using the low birth rate as an "excuse" why we need immigration. The current immigration of 1 Mio seekers of refugee status will in my opinion change our country in the long term and nobody was really asked if he wants that. Let's assume 50% get accepted, then they are allowed to take their family to Germany so I'm just guessing now we would have maybe 1 Mio new immigrants that can get residence status after some years or if they have to go later usually get tolerated to stay as most will not get deported if they are successfully integrated into our society. And this is just for 2015 and will probably continue. Yes we are solving our ageing population problem this way but no one can know at what costs. Will the integration be a success? There are resources bound to that that could have gone into other projects maybe to show solidarity with poor families in Germany or projects in southern Europe to create jobs. Sure you can argue you are playing out refugees against other issues on the other side money can only be spent once and maybe it's a better idea not to advertise to everybody to come to Germany with their cultures to seek safety here. Do you want to force people to have babies? Because I'm pretty sure there are efforts to make germans want more babies... it's just that they don't seem to work. If you want it or not, we need more young people if we want to keep our pension system alive In the end it's a problem people brought upon themselves, so I really couldn't care less about people whining about that sort of thing. People don't want to have babies, people don't want to have immigrants, people don't want to have cuts in pensions... Maybe we should have invested more money into cloning research rather than anything else. + Show Spoiler +I might not be 100% serious with my last paragraph
Sure you can't force people to make babies. But you can have a proper policy so people feel good about having more children. You can read what France does here (in German): http://www.dw.com/de/frankreichs-erfolgreiche-familienpolitik/a-16872434
(hope it's still correct)
I'll try to summarise from the article:
- Child care starting early on and available everywhere
- No child benefit for the first child. Child benefits starting from the second child with an additional reward for the third.
- A tax system that rewards especially the third child. Starting from the fourth child average income families rarely pay any taxes.
|
On September 17 2015 04:24 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 03:32 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On September 17 2015 02:40 dismiss wrote:On September 17 2015 02:31 Nyxisto wrote:On September 17 2015 02:17 WhiteDog wrote:
In a place where there are already 25 million people unemployed (europe) saying that immigration will instantly have a positive economical impact for everybody is just dumb and hypocritical. They will most likely put pressure on lower wage - which is exactly what has been happening in europe in the schenghen area through the introduction of some of eastern countries (and what has happened historically in the US through immigration).
Many countries with absolutely atrocious economic situations in Europe have net emigration for years, it hasn't helped the labour market a bit. Is there any data at all that supports the claim that immigration drives wages down significantly? You're a big proponent of demand oriented policies and immigrants buy stuff and create jobs, too. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdfHere's a meta-study from the US that details a negative impact on the economy by illegal immigrants. This one is probably more pertinent than the other ones stating that people who managed to get through a highly competitive selection process have a net positive impact on an economy. That report doesn't' address wages being driven down or the economy. Only the drain on local government due to the US's total inability to have a realistic immigration police. Immigration isn't bad on its own, only that being an illegal immigrant is bad for the immigrant and the local government. There's a direct correlation between how much income tax you pay and your economic impact. z_z Mette Foged, Giovanni Per (2014), Immigrants and Native Workers: New Analysis Using Longitudinal Employer-Employee Data: Show nested quote +We focus on a largely unexplored inflow of non-European (EU) immigrants to Denmark, beginning in 1995 and driven by a sequence of international political crises, the Bosnian, Somalian and Iraqi one and economic crises, the Turkey depression of 1994-95. We find that the increased supply of non-EU immigrants in a Danish municipality pushed the less educated native workers to pursue more complex and less manual-intensive occupations. This reallocation took place mainly through movement of individuals across firms and resulted in higher or unchanged wages. Immigration increased mobility of natives across firms but it did not increase their probability of unemployment." (emphasis mine) Source. The study you cited did not cover the impact on wages, and it conveniently left out the positive impact on federal finances. Overall, the net fiscal impact of immigration is positive in most countries, and the effect on wages is negligible (it can have a slightly negative impact for the lower-skilled workers, but not necessarily -- as evidenced in the paper I just posted). This is not to say that we support immigration first and foremost for economic reasons, as WhiteDog falsely implied, but simply that economic arguments against immigration, and in this case against welcoming the refugees who reach Europe, are largely baseless.
Don't have time to read the whole thing right now but that sounds like the pressure on the low wage jobs increased and some of the people managed to better their lot by gaining more qualifications? I'd be interested how well this scales on a large basis. Read, how likely is this effect to occur in a country with low unemployment and primary demand for highly qualified people.
|
Just heard the numbers from the Netherlands. 700 refuges a day atm, wich would make 250k/year on a population of 16m... that's almost twice as much as Germany and Germany is very high already.
How these people come in? Rules are to ask asylum in the first safe country that you enter,well that obviously is not the case.
It is unbelievable what is happening now. The consequences will be very bad.
Will see that with the next elections.
o nvm,i see you guys are already passed this subject.
|
Nevermind, I had promised myself to not re-enter this discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
